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Medieval vices

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  • nelsonhaynes@aol.com
    I am researching medieval vices and other wood holding methods for a P.U. class. I am still looking for the Lord who taught the class Here Hold This While
    Message 1 of 5 , Nov 6, 2011
      I am researching medieval vices and other wood holding methods for a P.U. class. I am still looking for the Lord who taught the class " Here Hold This While I Get My Ax" at war. I don't want to teach it without permission.
       
      Thanks,
       
      Master Nigel
    • Eric
      I would say that Dante provided the best known list of medieval vices, they were as follows: Pride, Avarice, Lust, Wrath, Gluttony, Envy, and Sloth. But if
      Message 2 of 5 , Nov 6, 2011
        I would say that Dante provided the best known list of medieval vices, they were as follows:
        Pride, Avarice, Lust, Wrath, Gluttony, Envy, and Sloth.

        But if you're looking for information in vises, then I don't have anything off the top of my head...

        Eirikr Mjoksiglandi

        --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, nelsonhaynes@... wrote:
        >
        > I am researching medieval vices and other wood holding methods for a P.U.
        > class. I am still looking for the Lord who taught the class " Here Hold
        > This While I Get My Ax" at war. I don't want to teach it without permission.
        >
        > Thanks,
        >
        > Master Nigel
        >
      • nelsonhaynes@aol.com
        I like those vices, being a practitioner of most, but the vices I was thinking of were things like riving breaks, wedges, screw vices, hold fasts and the like.
        Message 3 of 5 , Nov 7, 2011
          I like those vices, being a practitioner of most, but the vices I was thinking of were things like riving breaks, wedges, screw vices, hold fasts and the like. In other words, how did medieval wood workers keep that stupid board to keep still while you work on it.
           
          Thanks for your input and I'll work on my list of vices that I haven't done as of late.
           
          Nigel
           
          In a message dated 11/6/2011 8:34:38 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, ewdysar@... writes:
           

          I would say that Dante provided the best known list of medieval vices, they were as follows:
          Pride, Avarice, Lust, Wrath, Gluttony, Envy, and Sloth.

          But if you're looking for information in vises, then I don't have anything off the top of my head...

          Eirikr Mjoksiglandi

          --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, nelsonhaynes@... wrote:
          >
          > I am researching medieval vices and other wood holding methods for a P.U.
          > class. I am still looking for the Lord who taught the class " Here Hold
          > This While I Get My Ax" at war. I don't want to teach it without permission.
          >
          > Thanks,
          >
          > Master Nigel
          >

        • conradh@efn.org
          ... I wrote an article for the Elf Hill Times (SCA science/how to magazine out of Adiantum) called _Hold Everything!_ many years ago, and I m still interested
          Message 4 of 5 , Nov 7, 2011
            > I like those vices, being a practitioner of most, but the vices I was
            > thinking of were things like riving breaks, wedges, screw vices, hold
            > fasts and
            > the like. In other words, how did medieval wood workers keep that stupid
            > board to keep still while you work on it.
            >
            > Thanks for your input and I'll work on my list of vices that I haven't
            > done
            > as of late.
            >
            I wrote an article for the Elf Hill Times (SCA science/how to magazine out
            of Adiantum) called _Hold Everything!_ many years ago, and I'm still
            interested in the topic. I'd be glad to correspond and share info we've
            each found.

            Of vises in the narrow sense, screw-operated ones, AFAIK they were
            invented in southern Germany around 1500. The oldest illo I've seen is
            the Loffelholz illustration from 1505. That was in Nuremberg; shop
            illustrations from the 1400's AFAIK don't show them. Interestingly enough,
            they seem to have been made by and for metalworkers for a long time before
            woodworkers took them up. Loffelholz was an engineer, not a cabinetmaker,
            and the drawing is from his notebook. Like Leonardo, we don't know if
            things ever made it out into the real world off the page. It's also
            possible that Loffelholz drew and built a workbench for his own shop and
            his own personal use.

            The reason I say this is because there's no other evidence for vises for
            fifty years after Loffelholz, and then the _Book of Trades_ (also
            Nuremberg) shows six different shops with them. _Every one_ of those
            shops is a specialty metalworker, all the vises have the same distinctive
            form and all are being used for the filing of small metal parts. Not one
            of the many woodworkers shown has a vise in their shop, and several are
            shown awkwardly handholding workpieces that would be far easier to work if
            held in a vise.

            It looks to me as if vises were invented by Nuremberg or other south
            German high-end metalworkers in the 1500's, and that woodworkers were very
            conservative about adopting them. I haven't seen woodworking versions
            until around 1700, when they start showing up all over Germany and
            Scandinavia. Roubo a hundred years later is still referring to the bench
            with screw-vises as something Germans use, and urging stubborn French
            woodworkers to try them.

            Of course there are hundreds of workholding tricks that don't involve
            screw threads, and many of them go back way before 1500. Some of this
            stuff can be hard to date, too--a _goberge_ is just an anonymous stick
            until you see it in context, and if the original ceiling and workbench are
            gone the signifigance of its precise length is not at all obvious. An
            iron bench holdfast, if drawn or found, might be one month older that its
            context, or two hundred years older--they don't wear out in use.
          • nelsonhaynes@aol.com
            Great! I am presently working on a power point presentation. I ll send you a copy when it is somewhat presentable. Nigel ... From: conradh
            Message 5 of 5 , Nov 7, 2011
              Great!

              I am presently working on a power point presentation. I'll send you a copy when it is somewhat presentable.

              Nigel


              -----Original Message-----
              From: conradh <conradh@...>
              To: medievalsawdust <medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Mon, Nov 7, 2011 2:19 pm
              Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] Re: Medieval vices

               
              > I like those vices, being a practitioner of most, but the vices I was
              > thinking of were things like riving breaks, wedges, screw vices, hold
              > fasts and
              > the like. In other words, how did medieval wood workers keep that stupid
              > board to keep still while you work on it.
              >
              > Thanks for your input and I'll work on my list of vices that I haven't
              > done
              > as of late.
              >
              I wrote an article for the Elf Hill Times (SCA science/how to magazine out
              of Adiantum) called _Hold Everything!_ many years ago, and I'm still
              interested in the topic. I'd be glad to correspond and share info we've
              each found.

              Of vises in the narrow sense, screw-operated ones, AFAIK they were
              invented in southern Germany around 1500. The oldest illo I've seen is
              the Loffelholz illustration from 1505. That was in Nuremberg; shop
              illustrations from the 1400's AFAIK don't show them. Interestingly enough,
              they seem to have been made by and for metalworkers for a long time before
              woodworkers took them up. Loffelholz was an engineer, not a cabinetmaker,
              and the drawing is from his notebook. Like Leonardo, we don't know if
              things ever made it out into the real world off the page. It's also
              possible that Loffelholz drew and built a workbench for his own shop and
              his own personal use.

              The reason I say this is because there's no other evidence for vises for
              fifty years after Loffelholz, and then the _Book of Trades_ (also
              Nuremberg) shows six different shops with them. _Every one_ of those
              shops is a specialty metalworker, all the vises have the same distinctive
              form and all are being used for the filing of small metal parts. Not one
              of the many woodworkers shown has a vise in their shop, and several are
              shown awkwardly handholding workpieces that would be far easier to work if
              held in a vise.

              It looks to me as if vises were invented by Nuremberg or other south
              German high-end metalworkers in the 1500's, and that woodworkers were very
              conservative about adopting them. I haven't seen woodworking versions
              until around 1700, when they start showing up all over Germany and
              Scandinavia. Roubo a hundred years later is still referring to the bench
              with screw-vises as something Germans use, and urging stubborn French
              woodworkers to try them.

              Of course there are hundreds of workholding tricks that don't involve
              screw threads, and many of them go back way before 1500. Some of this
              stuff can be hard to date, too--a _goberge_ is just an anonymous stick
              until you see it in context, and if the original ceiling and workbench are
              gone the signifigance of its precise length is not at all obvious. An
              iron bench holdfast, if drawn or found, might be one month older that its
              context, or two hundred years older--they don't wear out in use.

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