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Re: [MedievalSawdust] Re: Starting hand tools

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  • Duncan Sinclair
    Thanks for the advise from everyone! I too have enjoyed St. Roy for some time, but need to probably re-watch a lot of it since it has been some time. I did
    Message 1 of 30 , Sep 15, 2011
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      Thanks for the advise from everyone! I too have enjoyed St. Roy for some time, but need to probably re-watch a lot of it since it has been some time. I did just get a copy of "The Mastermyr Find" but have not yet cracked the cover on it. I am hoping to replicate it for A&S competition this spring. Not sure if it will be hand or machinery yet depends on how the time and budget work out :D
       
      Duncan Sinclair (MKA: Chris Anderson)
      Shire of Qal 'at Ja'far
      and
      The Barony of Sternfeld
      Middle Kingdom

      Greenwood #514, F&AM
      From: Eric <ewdysar@...>
      To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2011 12:27 AM
      Subject: [MedievalSawdust] Re: Starting hand tools

       
      Hi Nigel,

      Thanks for the encouragement, but it was Duncan that is making the plunge into hand tool ownership.

      I've been using hand tools for quite some time and have even had the opportunity to make a few period examples. In the photo section of this group, in the folder "Eirikr's Camp", you can see pictures of the Viking axe and the Mastermyr chest replica that I made. Almost much everything in the pictures of the encampment is stuff that I've made. I don't have pictures of the chisels or spoon bits that I've made. Maybe I'll remember to take a few photos while I'm at the Great Western War in October.
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/medievalsawdust/photos/album/1171162070/pic/list

      The Mastermyr Find by Arwidsson and Berg (1983) has provided very detailed information about the extant artifacts related to the find. I used the dimensions and drawings from this book to figure out the lock mechanism when I duplicated it. I based the hinges on my chest on information from the book as well.

      Finally, I'm a big fan of Mr Underhill, I own five of his books and have seen many of his shows.

      Eirikr

      --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, nelsonhaynes@... wrote:
      >
      >
      > Eric:
      > Congratulations on your decision to try hand tools. Even if you use mostly
      > power tools, the skills you get with hand tools will make you a better all
      > round wood worker.
      > First, Roy Underhill Has a good list of tools for a traditional wood shop:
      > _http://www.pbs.org/woodwrightsshop/tools/index.html_
      > (http://www.pbs.org/woodwrightsshop/tools/index.html)
      > Next look and see what was in the Mastermyr Chest, a Viking Ship Builders
      > tool chest: _http://www.irontreeworks.com/mastermyr.htm_
      > (http://www.irontreeworks.com/mastermyr.htm)
      > I would consider joining the Midwest tool collectors association. This is
      > a group of people who really know tools and how to use them. They have a
      > vast amount of knowledge and are very sharing: www.mwtca.org/
      > Finally, learn to sharpen tools. A sharp tool is a joy to use. There are
      > many good methods to explore, but you might try the “scary sharp method”
      > wich is low cost and fairly easy: _http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scary_sharp_
      > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scary_sharp)
      > Good luck on your journey,
      > Master Nigel
      >
      >
      > > >
      > > duncansinclair@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > >> **
      > > >>
      > > >>
      > > >> I have enjoyed reading everyone's
      > > posts and it got me to wondering....
      > > >> What would everyone
      > > recommend for someone starting out in
      > > >> medievalwoodworking as
      > > far as hand tools?
      > > >>
      > > >> Thanks,
      > > >>
      > > >> Duncan Sinclair (MKA: Chris Anderson)
      > > >> Shire of
      > > Qal 'at Ja'far
      > > >> and
      > > >> The Barony of Sternfeld
      > > >> Middle Kingdom
      > > >>
      > > >> Greenwood #514,
      > > F&AM
      > > >>
      >
      >



    • D. Young
      The problem with using modern tools is that they produce modern results...usually. Sometimes I will use a chop saw for fast work but a modern saw leaves a
      Message 2 of 30 , Sep 15, 2011
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        The problem with using modern tools is that they produce modern results...usually.  

        Sometimes I will use a chop saw for fast work but a modern saw leaves a modern saw mark.  

        A modern handplane with a metal base often leaves chatter marks and fairly obvious long lane marks. 

        A modern drill hole is too perfect, so a dowel tends to fit too easily into the hole.  Hand drilling produces oblong holes, making it a better fit.

        ...all kinds of examples like this.  Just depends on what your aiming for in terms of the level of your reproduction.

        On the topic of handtools, there is a Facbook group on historical woodworking I launched.   We have about 110 members roughly. 

        Tons of photos of period tools, and period images.   Lots of discussion about making, planing, hewing etc.

        Its called Ancient, Medieval, Rennaissance and Colonial Furniture and Woodenware




        Fine Armour and Historical Reproductions

             Custom Commissions Welcome....!

        www.partsandtechnical.com
        (Well Formed Munitions Catalog Coming This Spring)
         



        To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
        From: geyre@...
        Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2011 08:00:07 +1200
        Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] Starting hand tools

         

        Hi Duncan
         
        Basic tools:- Saw, Mallet, selection of Chisels, Brace and bits, ruler, selection of planes
        Depending how deep you want to go:- a selecton of Adze and Axes.
         
        Very basic and it depends how deep your pockets are depends how authentic these can be. For example the Bits used with a Brace in days of yore would have been Spoon Bits, although crude Augers were available, but were probably not like todays. Spoon Bits are quite expensive to buy today. The saws back then were more like a long pruning saw of today, Japanese heve something very similar, but once again are quite expensive.
         
        Personally I tend to use all the modern tools available to me, especially as I am usually working in my garage by myself, so nobody sees, probably fairly extensive after 40+ years of woodworking. However I am slowly putting together a medieval woodworkers tool chest as and when I can afford to by the authentic tools, as nears as possible anyway. I actuall find it quite challenging and interesting to learn how to use these various tools.
         
        Cheers
         
        Graham

        From: Duncan Sinclair <duncansinclair@...>
        To: "medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com" <medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Thursday, 15 September 2011 7:34 AM
        Subject: [MedievalSawdust] Starting hand tools



        I have enjoyed reading everyone's posts and it got me to wondering.... What would everyone recommend for someone starting out in medieval woodworking as far as hand tools?
         
        Thanks,
         
        Duncan Sinclair (MKA: Chris Anderson)
        Shire of Qal 'at Ja'far
        and
        The Barony of Sternfeld
        Middle Kingdom

        Greenwood #514, F&AM





      • John LaTorre
        ... x2 The other indispensable tool is a good workbench (if you don t have one already). It can be a heavy solid table to start with, but it s not hard to make
        Message 3 of 30 , Sep 15, 2011
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          Eirikr wrote:

          > I'm going to second part of this post. If you're switching to hand tools, then you definately want to get good at sharpening. Whether a water stone, oil stone, composite diamond stone, or something like the Scary Sharp system, get something and learn how to use it. A sharp hand tool is more enjoyable to use and safer too.

          x2

          The other indispensable tool is a good workbench (if you don't have one
          already). It can be a heavy solid table to start with, but it's not hard
          to make one, and it will make all your subsequent projects easier.

          Johann von Drachenfels
          West Kingdom
        • AlbionWood
          So did medieval planes. I have found such marks on almost every piece of medieval furniture I ve had the opportunity to examine. Tim
          Message 4 of 30 , Sep 16, 2011
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            So did medieval planes. I have found such marks on almost every piece
            of medieval furniture I've had the opportunity to examine.

            Tim

            On 9/15/2011 8:53 AM, D. Young wrote:

            > A modern handplane with a metal base often leaves chatter marks and
            > fairly obvious long lane marks.
          • AlbionWood
            x2 - in fact I d say this is the #1 tool to get, none of the other hand tools work without a bench. Holding the work is half the battle. Tim
            Message 5 of 30 , Sep 16, 2011
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              x2 - in fact I'd say this is the #1 tool to get, none of the other hand
              tools work without a bench. Holding the work is half the battle.

              Tim

              On 9/15/2011 9:39 AM, John LaTorre wrote:

              >
              > The other indispensable tool is a good workbench (if you don't have one
              > already). It can be a heavy solid table to start with, but it's not hard
              > to make one, and it will make all your subsequent projects easier.
            • D. Young
              Tim Yes you are right. I should have clarified. I have several period medieval and colonial planes and replica of them. They dont tend to leave marks other
              Message 6 of 30 , Sep 17, 2011
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                Tim

                Yes you are right.   I should have clarified.

                I have several period medieval and colonial planes and replica of them.   They dont tend to leave marks other than start markings.   

                 I meant long streaking lines that a hard steel soul can tend to leave.   Wooden planes having wooden soles tend not to leave such long sharp lines.  

                Drew



                Fine Armour and Historical Reproductions

                     Custom Commissions Welcome....!

                www.partsandtechnical.com
                (Well Formed Munitions Catalog Coming This Spring)
                 



                To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                From: albionwood@...
                Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2011 13:52:15 -0700
                Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] Re: Starting hand tools

                 
                x2 - in fact I'd say this is the #1 tool to get, none of the other hand
                tools work without a bench. Holding the work is half the battle.

                Tim

                On 9/15/2011 9:39 AM, John LaTorre wrote:

                >
                > The other indispensable tool is a good workbench (if you don't have one
                > already). It can be a heavy solid table to start with, but it's not hard
                > to make one, and it will make all your subsequent projects easier.

              • Chuck Phillips
                I feel the need to chime in on this topic. Chatter marks tend to be caused by the blade flexing, generally due to insufficient support from the frog, taking
                Message 7 of 30 , Sep 19, 2011
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                  I feel the need to chime in on this topic. Chatter marks tend to be caused by the blade flexing, generally due to insufficient support from the frog, taking too heavy a cut, or a dull blade. The lane marks are a sign of missing a step in sharpening. Plane blades should have the edge very slightly radiused, just a little off the corners. This is particularly so for a smoothing plane.

                  Charles Joiner
                  Laying low in Caid

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com [mailto:medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of AlbionWood
                  Sent: Friday, September 16, 2011 1:51 PM
                  To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] Starting hand tools

                  So did medieval planes. I have found such marks on almost every piece of medieval furniture I've had the opportunity to examine.

                  Tim

                  On 9/15/2011 8:53 AM, D. Young wrote:

                  > A modern handplane with a metal base often leaves chatter marks and
                  > fairly obvious long lane marks.


                  ------------------------------------
                • Scot Eddy
                  Found this link on Reddit.com and thought I would share it. The Moraccan artist makes a chess piece with a bow lathe and 1 tool.  Haven t checked out the
                  Message 8 of 30 , Oct 25, 2011
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                    Found this link on Reddit.com and thought I would share it. The Moraccan artist makes a chess piece with a bow lathe and 1 tool. 

                    Haven't checked out the other videos shown on the right but they look cool.

                    Grace and Peace,

                    Jovian
                  • Dave Ordway
                    I ve been thinking of building one recently. Can you provide the link please? Lagerstein ... From: Scot Eddy To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com Sent:
                    Message 9 of 30 , Oct 26, 2011
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                      I've been thinking of building one recently.  Can you provide the link please?
                       
                      Lagerstein
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: Scot Eddy
                      Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2011 12:31 AM
                      Subject: [MedievalSawdust] Youtube video of a bow lathe

                       

                      Found this link on Reddit.com and thought I would share it. The Moraccan artist makes a chess piece with a bow lathe and 1 tool. 

                      Haven't checked out the other videos shown on the right but they look cool.

                      Grace and Peace,

                      Jovian

                    • Scot Eddy
                      Here it is... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnv0DAR_gWA&t=1m10s Grace and Peace, Jovian ________________________________ From: Dave Ordway
                      Message 10 of 30 , Oct 26, 2011
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                        #-o d'oh!

                        Here it is...


                        Grace and Peace,

                        Jovian


                        From: Dave Ordway <dabugler@...>
                        To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2011 10:24 PM
                        Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] Youtube video of a bow lathe

                         
                        I've been thinking of building one recently.  Can you provide the link please?
                         
                        Lagerstein
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Scot Eddy
                        Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2011 12:31 AM
                        Subject: [MedievalSawdust] Youtube video of a bow lathe

                         
                        Found this link on Reddit.com and thought I would share it. The Moraccan artist makes a chess piece with a bow lathe and 1 tool. 

                        Haven't checked out the other videos shown on the right but they look cool.

                        Grace and Peace,

                        Jovian


                      • Lynda Fjellman
                        Wonderful!! I guess I need to polish up my toes.  I m still working on getting that nice finish.  Of course if I worked on my lathe everyday instead of maybe
                        Message 11 of 30 , Oct 27, 2011
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                          Wonderful!!
                          I guess I need to polish up my toes.  I'm still working on getting that nice finish.  Of course if I worked on my lathe everyday instead of maybe once a month, I'd be better at it.
                          Ilaria

                          Here it is...

                          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnv0DAR_gWA&t=1m10s

                          Grace and Peace,

                          Jovian

                        • Chris Janoch
                          That is one *extremely* sharp skew chisel! - Rhydderch ____________________________________
                          Message 12 of 30 , Oct 27, 2011
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                            That is one *extremely* sharp skew chisel!

                            - Rhydderch

                            ____________________________________


                            On Oct 27, 2011, at 9:01 PM, Lynda Fjellman <lyndafjellman@...> wrote:

                             

                            Wonderful!!
                            I guess I need to polish up my toes.  I'm still working on getting that nice finish.  Of course if I worked on my lathe everyday instead of maybe once a month, I'd be better at it.
                            Ilaria

                            Here it is...


                            Grace and Peace,

                            Jovian

                          • Ralph
                            And now for something, ah, completely different http://www.youtube.com/user/cindydrozda#p/a/u/0/guClqaO57yU Ralg (ducking and running, but he did spend 5 hours
                            Message 13 of 30 , Oct 27, 2011
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                              And now for something, ah, completely different

                              http://www.youtube.com/user/cindydrozda#p/a/u/0/guClqaO57yU

                              Ralg (ducking and running, but he did spend 5 hours at his lathe today)
                              AnTir
                            • conradh@efn.org
                              ... Not really true at all. First of all, nails go way back in woodworking, and they ve generally been driven and drawn with hammers. The Romans made claw
                              Message 14 of 30 , Oct 28, 2011
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                                > Didn't have a hammer as such back then. or at least not for woodworking
                                > purposes, Ironwork yes. The first hammer used in woodworking was actually
                                > the first screwdriver. 
                                >

                                Not really true at all. First of all, nails go way back in woodworking,
                                and they've generally been driven and drawn with hammers. The Romans made
                                claw hammers that looked just like the ones medieval smiths made for
                                medieval carpenters. The only real change in modern times was the
                                adze-type eye that replaced the earlier simple eye, and ISTR that's a
                                thing of the 19th century.

                                Secondly, we're taught today to only use a wooden mallet for driving
                                chisels, because when wood and iron are pounded together, the wood loses.
                                However, this also applies to all-metal chisels, which should be driven
                                with metal hammers. The Royal Ontario Museum has a metal hammer and an
                                all-metal gouge, frex, from a sixteenth-century London dig. You can see a
                                photo of them in _The Secular Spirit, Life and Art at the End of the
                                Middle Ages_, Metropolitan Museum of Art, Dutton, New York, 1975. p 109.

                                Ulfhedinn
                              • Lynda Fjellman
                                Nice, kinda puts a new spin on salad bowls, but she got some lovely coleslaw out of the deal. Perhaps you could make some for our next banquet? Ilaria
                                Message 15 of 30 , Oct 28, 2011
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                                  Nice, kinda puts a new spin on salad bowls, but she got some lovely coleslaw out of the deal.
                                  Perhaps you could make some for our next banquet?
                                  Ilaria




                                   
                                  And now for something, ah, completely different

                                  http://www.youtube.com/user/cindydrozda#p/a/u/0/guClqaO57yU

                                  Ralg (ducking and running, but he did spend 5 hours at his lathe today)
                                  AnTir

                                  __
                                • D. Young
                                  I have several hammers dated to the 1600s and 1700s for woodworking. Iron hammers I mean. And yes iron hammers have been around for thousands of years....for
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Oct 29, 2011
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                                    I have several hammers dated to the 1600s and 1700s for woodworking.   Iron hammers I mean.

                                    And yes iron hammers have been around for thousands of years....for woodworking, as with nails.





                                    Fine Armour and Historical Reproductions

                                         Custom Commissions Welcome....!

                                    www.partsandtechnical.com
                                    (Well Formed Munitions Catalog Coming This Spring)
                                     



                                    To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                                    From: conradh@...
                                    Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 14:00:30 -0700
                                    Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] Starting hand tools

                                     
                                    > Didn't have a hammer as such back then. or at least not for woodworking
                                    > purposes, Ironwork yes. The first hammer used in woodworking was actually
                                    > the first screwdriver. 
                                    >

                                    Not really true at all. First of all, nails go way back in woodworking,
                                    and they've generally been driven and drawn with hammers. The Romans made
                                    claw hammers that looked just like the ones medieval smiths made for
                                    medieval carpenters. The only real change in modern times was the
                                    adze-type eye that replaced the earlier simple eye, and ISTR that's a
                                    thing of the 19th century.

                                    Secondly, we're taught today to only use a wooden mallet for driving
                                    chisels, because when wood and iron are pounded together, the wood loses.
                                    However, this also applies to all-metal chisels, which should be driven
                                    with metal hammers. The Royal Ontario Museum has a metal hammer and an
                                    all-metal gouge, frex, from a sixteenth-century London dig. You can see a
                                    photo of them in _The Secular Spirit, Life and Art at the End of the
                                    Middle Ages_, Metropolitan Museum of Art, Dutton, New York, 1975. p 109.

                                    Ulfhedinn


                                  • D. Young
                                    Also screws have been used in wood (mostly for hinges) since about 1500.....Ive found examples that far back. Rare to be sure, but increasingly more frequent
                                    Message 17 of 30 , Oct 29, 2011
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                                      Also screws have been used in wood (mostly for hinges) since about 1500.....Ive found examples that far back.

                                      Rare to be sure, but increasingly more frequent as we enter the 17th century. 



                                      Fine Armour and Historical Reproductions

                                           Custom Commissions Welcome....!

                                      www.partsandtechnical.com
                                      (Well Formed Munitions Catalog Coming This Spring)
                                       



                                      To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                                      From: conradh@...
                                      Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 14:00:30 -0700
                                      Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] Starting hand tools

                                       
                                      > Didn't have a hammer as such back then. or at least not for woodworking
                                      > purposes, Ironwork yes. The first hammer used in woodworking was actually
                                      > the first screwdriver. 
                                      >

                                      Not really true at all. First of all, nails go way back in woodworking,
                                      and they've generally been driven and drawn with hammers. The Romans made
                                      claw hammers that looked just like the ones medieval smiths made for
                                      medieval carpenters. The only real change in modern times was the
                                      adze-type eye that replaced the earlier simple eye, and ISTR that's a
                                      thing of the 19th century.

                                      Secondly, we're taught today to only use a wooden mallet for driving
                                      chisels, because when wood and iron are pounded together, the wood loses.
                                      However, this also applies to all-metal chisels, which should be driven
                                      with metal hammers. The Royal Ontario Museum has a metal hammer and an
                                      all-metal gouge, frex, from a sixteenth-century London dig. You can see a
                                      photo of them in _The Secular Spirit, Life and Art at the End of the
                                      Middle Ages_, Metropolitan Museum of Art, Dutton, New York, 1975. p 109.

                                      Ulfhedinn


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