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Re: [MedievalSawdust] Re: period glue documentation, hide glue book

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  • Karl Christoffers
    Greetings the list,   Shephard s Hide Glue ... is not a decent reference for glue use in SCA period. He makes undocumented statements, and his one period
    Message 1 of 32 , Jul 7, 2011
      Greetings the list,
      Shephard's "Hide Glue ... " is not a decent reference for glue use in SCA period. He makes undocumented statements, and his one period reference in his bibliography is Cennini.
      That said, the book is just fascinating with (much better) documentation for 18th and 19th Century uses of hide glue. Shephard also gives a thorough, nigh exhaustive, hide glue "how to ..." which has convinced me to start messing with the stuff. He has a new book out: "Shellac, Linseed Oil, and Paint" which I understand from the write-up at 'Tools for Working Wood' covers all the stuff finishers did  - again in the 18th and 19th Centuries. I'm ordering a copy.
      Final note, the books are self-published, and Shephard *really* needs an editor. 
      Malcolm macGregor

      From: sdhunter3 <sd_hunter@...>
      To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Wednesday, July 6, 2011 6:00 PM
      Subject: [MedievalSawdust] Re: period glue documentation

      Along the line of documentation for hide glue, I just came across this book

      Hide Glue: Historical & Practical Applications by Stephen A. Shepherd

      It is available from Tools for Working Wood:

      Looks interesting to me!

      Sir Stan

      --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, "Helen Schultz" <helen.schultz@...> wrote:
      > And, along that info, wheat paste residue has been found in books dating back to at least the 4th century. For those who don't know, this is the type of paste still used today by bookbinding purists. Not specifically sawdust... but pasting leather to wooden book covers, and later paste-paper that was many layers of paper pasted together for replacing the wooden covers.
      > ~~ Katarina Helene
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: Broom
      > Cc: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Saturday, July 02, 2011 6:59 PM
      > Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] Re: period glue documentation
      > > On Thu, Jun 30, 2011 at 5:57 PM, Vels inn Viggladi <velsthe1@...> wrote:
      > > One really important thing to consider, and I doubt there have been many if any studies of this done, is how long do natural glues survive before entropy catches up with the natural biodegradability?
      > >
      > > If an adhesive is expected to remain intact for a human lifetime, then it makes a pretty good reinforcement for any joint. If a glue breaks down after a few decades or so, how much would be left beyond minute evidence after a few centuries?
      > >
      > > Vels
      > Why wouldn't have been studied, as it's a vital link to archaeological
      > clues? By parallel example, the usage of linen is typically indicated
      > by its absence, as it often rots away leaving only the silken threads
      > and woolen cloths that attached to it.
      > Hide glues can survive at least 8,000 years.
      > http://www.archaeology.org/online/news/glue.html
      > Pine resin glues have a similar survivability.
      > http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/ac0155862
      > ' | Broom IAmBroom @ gmail . com
      > ' | cellphone: 412-389-1997
      > '\|/ 923 Haslage Ave, Pittsburgh, PA 15212
      > '/|\ "I think I'm going to start calling myself either a conserberal
      > //|\\ or a libervative." - Bag-o-Nugs, Fark

    • D. Young
      Well said Tim. There was actually a really good discussion on Peter Follansbees blog about green wood and the implication behind it. From my own experience
      Message 32 of 32 , Jul 13, 2011
        Well said Tim.

        There was actually a really good discussion on Peter Follansbees blog about green wood and the implication behind it.    From my own experience of directly felled, split or sawn and worked oak tree to lumber, I can say that the term green wood is often misunderstood to literally mean that  the piece of furniture was made within days  of the trees felling.    Clearly this is not the case as it really takes at least 3-4 weeks to dry the outer surface of the lumber to get a good planing job done on it, and often carve it.    I think joined furniture takes off in large measure by the 15th century because of the increasing lack of oak...joined work is often composed of smaller pieces.  But by the 17th century and importation of oaks from the Americas, joined work may have simply become fashion (by that period). 

        And with respect to glues, veneering and marquetry require seasoned wood.   Even if the outer layers are dry, the evaporation will erode the strength of most glues, loosening the applied layer.   

        Fine Armour and Historical Reproductions

             Custom Commissions Welcome....!

        (Well Formed Munitions Catalog Coming This Spring)

        > To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
        > From: albionwood@...
        > Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 13:42:03 -0700
        > Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] Glues and veneers
        > Veneered furniture - including marquetry - appears in the late 15th and
        > sophisticated examples are known from the 16th century, especially in
        > Italy, but also north of the Alps in German and Dutch areas. Glue was
        > definitely in use there and then.
        > Is there evidence for green-wood joinery as a general practice in the
        > medieval period? My understanding is that it really took off in the
        > 17th and 18th centuries. Especially the methods that relied on
        > shrinkage to lock the joints together - I am not aware of any surviving
        > examples from before the 16th c. - if anyone has evidence for this, I'd
        > love to see it.
        > Most of the medieval joinery that I'm familiar with pretty much requires
        > seasoned wood. The joints will accommodate seasonal movement,
        > expansion/contraction, but do not appear designed to deal with
        > contraction only. Think for example of clamped-front chests, or boarded
        > stools, both of which involve cross-grain joinery; yes, the wooden pegs
        > will accommodate some movement, but these objects clearly were not made
        > from green wood.
        > Cheers,
        > Tim
        > On 7/1/2011 4:43 PM, D. Young wrote:
        > >
        > > Not long into the 18th century glues and veneers come into being so the
        > > joiner who RELIED on relatively green, moisture stable quartered lumber
        > > as a critical part of joinery to work properly (that eventual shrinkage
        > > was critical to lock up the joint) gave way to glues and such....that
        > > obviously work best with seasoned, stable wood.
        > >
        > > Ergo glue is not a part of most furniture until after the first quarter
        > > of 18th century. The devils in the details...literally.
        > ------------------------------------
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