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Re: [MedievalSawdust] WOW Glastonbury Chairs

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  • AlbionWood
    Conal, how are you joining the backs to the uprights? On the originals I think the crested rail at the top was (often/usually) tenoned right through the
    Message 1 of 18 , Mar 28, 2011
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      Conal, how are you joining the backs to the uprights? On the originals
      I think the crested rail at the top was (often/usually) tenoned right
      through the uprights, and the extended tenon is the attachment point for
      the arms as well. To simplify construction I have usually tenoned the
      back into the uprights and put forelock bolts behind the back; I see
      that you put them in front. Discuss? (I'm always fascinated by the
      design decision-making process, something I often spend inordinate
      amounts of time on.)

      Cheers,
      Tim
    • Siegfried
      Oh that s interesting, my brief glance at those pictures I hadn t noticed that. The back is half-height and laid in to the back. Instead of being
      Message 2 of 18 , Mar 28, 2011
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        Oh that's interesting, my brief glance at those pictures I hadn't
        noticed that.

        The back is half-height and 'laid in' to the back. Instead of being
        frame-n-panel and tenon'd through.

        That actually makes the design of these chairs MUCH simpler than the
        traditional frame-n-panel that I'm used to seeing.

        (And therefore, makes me and my 'grand plans, only little time'
        personality right now much more interested in making these)

        A couple random thoughts/questions (For anyone):

        * Drawback to this design on the back seems to be that the dowels stick
        right into where your back would go. I see 2 solutions: Either make a
        'capped dowel' (So end a dowel in a 3/4" wooden plug that sits against
        the wood) ... or move the back to the forward of the upright, not behind
        it. Thoughts?

        * Thickness of wood: So when these chairs have been discussed in the
        past, it was always a case of 2x is too thick, and 1x isn't 'enough'.
        From looking at these pictures, it does actually just look like 1x material.

        * Pins: So instead of these being typical angled tusk tenons, it looks
        like just simple round pins. Simpler. But how are they being kept in?
        (Again, without some kind of 'cap' at the top). Notice the top pin is
        metal, and has a lip/cap to stick.
        http://is.gd/tKqarN

        Siegfried - Becoming inspired to make some of these.


        On 3/28/11 1:34 PM, AlbionWood wrote:
        > Conal, how are you joining the backs to the uprights? On the originals
        > I think the crested rail at the top was (often/usually) tenoned right
        > through the uprights, and the extended tenon is the attachment point for
        > the arms as well. To simplify construction I have usually tenoned the
        > back into the uprights and put forelock bolts behind the back; I see
        > that you put them in front. Discuss? (I'm always fascinated by the
        > design decision-making process, something I often spend inordinate
        > amounts of time on.)
        >
        > Cheers,
        > Tim
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        >
        >

        --
        Barun Siegfried Sebastian Faust - Barony of Highland Foorde - Atlantia
        http://hf.atlantia.sca.org/ - http://crossbows.biz/ - http://eliw.com/
      • Jim Hart
        The shield escutcheons in the back where pre-existing. I m guessing they where painted with acrylics but that is only a guess. They appeared to be made from
        Message 3 of 18 , Mar 28, 2011
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          The 'shield" escutcheons in the back where pre-existing. I'm guessing they where painted with acrylics
          but that is only a guess. They appeared to be made from red oak, but bening painted I'm not 100% sure



          On Sun, Mar 27, 2011 at 9:12 PM, AqA WyrdWynd <wyrdwynd@...> wrote:
           

          okay was the painted part what medium and what did you cover it all with


          have at ye with a flock of flaming yodeling hamsters !!!



          --- On Sun, 3/27/11, Jim Hart <conalohairt@...> wrote:

          From: Jim Hart <conalohairt@...>
          Subject: [MedievalSawdust] WOW Glastonbury Chairs
          To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Sunday, March 27, 2011, 5:30 PM




          I got an order for a pair of Glastonbury chairs.

          They wanted them unfinished so that a local member could do a little 'decorating'

          They have been unveiled publicly and I can FINALLY share the photos they sent me  as a preview.



          I'm trying to get this guy to sign up here as  member.....

          --
          Jim Hart
            Conal OhAirt

          Aude Aliquid Digmun - dare something worthy






          --
          Jim Hart
            Conal OhAirt

          Aude Aliquid Digmun - dare something worthy
        • AlbionWood
          Siegfried - I can see that the gabled back piece is laid into the uprights, but how it is fixed into place? A joint like that usually requires some sort of
          Message 4 of 18 , Mar 28, 2011
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            Siegfried - I can see that the gabled back piece is laid into the
            uprights, but how it is fixed into place? A joint like that usually
            requires some sort of mechanical fastener... which IMO is out of place
            in this style of furniture.. so I'm wondering how Conal solved that.

            The "capped dowel" you refer to is called a "forelock bolt" - it looks
            like a bolt with no threads, and is tightened with a wedge instead of a
            nut. They are medieval; the ironwork supporting the Salisbury cathedral
            tower is bolted together with iron versions. Very cool!

            I put the bolts behind the back panel on my chairs, but they could go in
            the front (as on the chairs we are discussing) and not cause much
            trouble, because the heads don't stick out so far.

            1x material is plenty if it's a good strong hardwood, especially if you
            start with rough 4/4 and leave it a little thick. I aim for about 7/8"
            or a little less.

            I too am curious about the pins... that metal one looks like a nail to me!

            Cheers,
            Tim


            On 3/28/2011 11:26 AM, Siegfried wrote:
            > Oh that's interesting, my brief glance at those pictures I hadn't
            > noticed that.
            >
            > The back is half-height and 'laid in' to the back. Instead of being
            > frame-n-panel and tenon'd through.
            >
            > That actually makes the design of these chairs MUCH simpler than the
            > traditional frame-n-panel that I'm used to seeing.
            >
            > (And therefore, makes me and my 'grand plans, only little time'
            > personality right now much more interested in making these)
            >
            > A couple random thoughts/questions (For anyone):
            >
            > * Drawback to this design on the back seems to be that the dowels stick
            > right into where your back would go. I see 2 solutions: Either make a
            > 'capped dowel' (So end a dowel in a 3/4" wooden plug that sits against
            > the wood) ... or move the back to the forward of the upright, not behind
            > it. Thoughts?
            >
            > * Thickness of wood: So when these chairs have been discussed in the
            > past, it was always a case of 2x is too thick, and 1x isn't 'enough'.
            >> From looking at these pictures, it does actually just look like 1x material.
            >
            > * Pins: So instead of these being typical angled tusk tenons, it looks
            > like just simple round pins. Simpler. But how are they being kept in?
            > (Again, without some kind of 'cap' at the top). Notice the top pin is
            > metal, and has a lip/cap to stick.
          • Siegfried
            ... True, out of place perhaps, but handy. I assumed that he hadn t used screws or the ilk, but had, say doweled it together. Of course, the more I think
            Message 5 of 18 , Mar 28, 2011
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              > Siegfried - I can see that the gabled back piece is laid into the
              > uprights, but how it is fixed into place? A joint like that usually
              > requires some sort of mechanical fastener... which IMO is out of place
              > in this style of furniture.. so I'm wondering how Conal solved that.

              True, out of place perhaps, but handy. I assumed that he hadn't used
              screws or the ilk, but had, say doweled it together. Of course, the
              more I think about it, having the back on the, well, back, also means
              that while leaning against it, you are attempting to push it 'off' with
              your body weight.

              Having it on the front of the uprights, would be a stronger system, as
              you are pushing it back into itself instead.

              > The "capped dowel" you refer to is called a "forelock bolt" - it looks
              > like a bolt with no threads, and is tightened with a wedge instead of a
              > nut. They are medieval; the ironwork supporting the Salisbury cathedral
              > tower is bolted together with iron versions. Very cool!

              Ah yes, but I had something different in mind. Something I've done
              often for crossbows as part of their trigger. A way to make a post that
              won't 'fall out' of a hole.

              Basically it's still a wooden dowel, as you see on those chairs, but,
              let's assume 1" diameter dowels. You then take a 2" circle of wood,
              slightly drill a 1" hole into it (say 1/4" deep, with a forstner bit),
              then glue it on.

              You've created what looks like a wooden nail, or rivet.

              Then, you could place that on the inside of the chair, with the dowel
              sticking out and pinned. No pokey thing in the seating area.

              > I put the bolts behind the back panel on my chairs, but they could go in
              > the front (as on the chairs we are discussing) and not cause much
              > trouble, because the heads don't stick out so far.

              *nod*, this is the first I've realized this modification at all. All
              the Glastonbury's I have seen, including the ones in my Barony, have
              been frame-n-panel, where the top frame was extended out into the dowels
              itself.

              > 1x material is plenty if it's a good strong hardwood, especially if you
              > start with rough 4/4 and leave it a little thick. I aim for about 7/8"
              > or a little less.

              *nod*

              > I too am curious about the pins... that metal one looks like a nail to me!

              The metal one looks like a nail that was then heated and flattened out
              on top, to make a 'tab'.

              the other pins, though. I'm curious.

              Looking at the breakdown pictures, I see that the back bottom of the
              seat has a 'slot' instead of a hole. I assume therefore that this is
              the (mythical?) folding version of these chairs, whereby you just lift
              the seat up, and the whole thing folds down to a nice small pile.

              The catch-22 of that then, is that only those top-metal pins would need
              removed, and the loose dowels.

              therefore, all those other round dowels, pinning the bigger dowels.

              Well they might just be glued in and permanent.

              Siegfried

              --
              Barun Siegfried Sebastian Faust - Barony of Highland Foorde - Atlantia
              http://hf.atlantia.sca.org/ - http://crossbows.biz/ - http://eliw.com/
            • AqA WyrdWynd
              works for me, wat was the glaze or stain or varnsih used over it all have at ye with a flock of flaming yodeling hamsters !!! ... From: Jim Hart
              Message 6 of 18 , Mar 29, 2011
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                works for me, wat was the glaze or stain or varnsih used over it all

                have at ye with a flock of flaming yodeling hamsters !!!



                --- On Mon, 3/28/11, Jim Hart <conalohairt@...> wrote:

                From: Jim Hart <conalohairt@...>
                Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] WOW Glastonbury Chairs
                To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Monday, March 28, 2011, 4:36 PM



                The 'shield" escutcheons in the back where pre-existing. I'm guessing they where painted with acrylics
                but that is only a guess. They appeared to be made from red oak, but bening painted I'm not 100% sure



                On Sun, Mar 27, 2011 at 9:12 PM, AqA WyrdWynd <wyrdwynd@...> wrote:
                 

                okay was the painted part what medium and what did you cover it all with


                have at ye with a flock of flaming yodeling hamsters !!!



                --- On Sun, 3/27/11, Jim Hart <conalohairt@...> wrote:

                From: Jim Hart <conalohairt@...>
                Subject: [MedievalSawdust] WOW Glastonbury Chairs
                To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Sunday, March 27, 2011, 5:30 PM




                I got an order for a pair of Glastonbury chairs.

                They wanted them unfinished so that a local member could do a little 'decorating'

                They have been unveiled publicly and I can FINALLY share the photos they sent me  as a preview.



                I'm trying to get this guy to sign up here as  member.....

                --
                Jim Hart
                  Conal OhAirt

                Aude Aliquid Digmun - dare something worthy






                --
                Jim Hart
                  Conal OhAirt

                Aude Aliquid Digmun - dare something worthy



              • Jim Hart
                lol not mythical these are folding versions of the Glastonbury chair these are SCA event furniture... and I m selling them too so to keep the production time
                Message 7 of 18 , Mar 29, 2011
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                  lol  not mythical these are folding versions of the Glastonbury chair

                  these are SCA event furniture... and I'm selling them too

                  so to keep the production time down I've been using screws and plugging the holes afterwards
                  ( same as the seat )

                  If I were asked to not use screws ( first I would charge a little more ) I would probably cut mortises
                  in the back's upright's and tenons on the gabled back board. I might wedge that tenon in place
                  but With modern glues..... not sure it would be needed.... I've been thinking of replacing my personal 
                  chairs...... maybe I'll get a chance to see.

                  and use M&T joints to assemble the seat also...

                  The originals use a wedged dowel to secure the parts when the chair is assembled. This version 
                  folds instead of being completely disassembled. The wooden pins in front of the gabled back
                  board are that way because it allows that chair to fold up smaller.

                  The pins are made from 1/4 rod and the section at the top that is folded over is meant to 
                  sit on the arm of the chair ( I have told him that now... lol )  


                  To fold this chair you remove the wooden pegs at the arm/back point, fold the arms and back down 
                  and then lift up on the seat and the legs fold up.....

                  On Mon, Mar 28, 2011 at 8:42 PM, AlbionWood <albionwood@...> wrote:
                   

                  Siegfried - I can see that the gabled back piece is laid into the
                  uprights, but how it is fixed into place? A joint like that usually
                  requires some sort of mechanical fastener... which IMO is out of place
                  in this style of furniture.. so I'm wondering how Conal solved that.

                  The "capped dowel" you refer to is called a "forelock bolt" - it looks
                  like a bolt with no threads, and is tightened with a wedge instead of a
                  nut. They are medieval; the ironwork supporting the Salisbury cathedral
                  tower is bolted together with iron versions. Very cool!

                  I put the bolts behind the back panel on my chairs, but they could go in
                  the front (as on the chairs we are discussing) and not cause much
                  trouble, because the heads don't stick out so far.

                  1x material is plenty if it's a good strong hardwood, especially if you
                  start with rough 4/4 and leave it a little thick. I aim for about 7/8"
                  or a little less.

                  I too am curious about the pins... that metal one looks like a nail to me!

                  Cheers,
                  Tim



                  On 3/28/2011 11:26 AM, Siegfried wrote:
                  > Oh that's interesting, my brief glance at those pictures I hadn't
                  > noticed that.
                  >
                  > The back is half-height and 'laid in' to the back. Instead of being
                  > frame-n-panel and tenon'd through.
                  >
                  > That actually makes the design of these chairs MUCH simpler than the
                  > traditional frame-n-panel that I'm used to seeing.
                  >
                  > (And therefore, makes me and my 'grand plans, only little time'
                  > personality right now much more interested in making these)
                  >
                  > A couple random thoughts/questions (For anyone):
                  >
                  > * Drawback to this design on the back seems to be that the dowels stick
                  > right into where your back would go. I see 2 solutions: Either make a
                  > 'capped dowel' (So end a dowel in a 3/4" wooden plug that sits against
                  > the wood) ... or move the back to the forward of the upright, not behind
                  > it. Thoughts?
                  >
                  > * Thickness of wood: So when these chairs have been discussed in the
                  > past, it was always a case of 2x is too thick, and 1x isn't 'enough'.
                  >> From looking at these pictures, it does actually just look like 1x material.
                  >
                  > * Pins: So instead of these being typical angled tusk tenons, it looks
                  > like just simple round pins. Simpler. But how are they being kept in?
                  > (Again, without some kind of 'cap' at the top). Notice the top pin is
                  > metal, and has a lip/cap to stick.




                  --
                  Jim Hart
                    Conal OhAirt

                  Aude Aliquid Digmun - dare something worthy
                • AlbionWood
                  ... Oh.
                  Message 8 of 18 , Mar 30, 2011
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                    > so to keep the production time down I've been using screws and plugging
                    > the holes afterwards
                    > ( same as the seat )

                    Oh.
                  • smay1968@bigpond.net.au
                    Hi All Firstly having recently joind the list to intro myself, I m Steve Maynard known in the SCA as William Castille, I ve been dabbling in period woodwork
                    Message 9 of 18 , Mar 30, 2011
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                      Hi All
                      Firstly having recently joind the list to intro myself, I'm Steve Maynard known in the SCA as William Castille, I've been dabbling in period woodwork for a while.
                      Of late I've become interested in making period instruments (mainly inspired by Paul Butlers site http://crab.rutgers.edu/~pbutler/instrum.html) and have made a couple of rebecs and Anglo-Saxon lyre and I'm in the process of making a citole. So to that end I was wondering if there any instrument makers on the list.

                      Steve/William
                    • Chris Carpenter
                      Greetings Lord William Castille. Might I make a suggestion if you want to explore period instrument making. Check out the following list...
                      Message 10 of 18 , Mar 31, 2011
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                        Greetings Lord William Castille.

                        Might I make a suggestion if you want to explore period instrument making. Check out the following list...

                        http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/Dulcian-List/

                        Dulcians were a VERY common period instrument, A form of Shawm, and the predecessor of the Bassoon. It is almost totally unrepresented in the SCA culture, and I personally would buy one if I could find one at a much less expensive rate than those available at this time. If I could afford $16,000 for a good Dulcian, I would buy a high quality Bassoon.

                        Just a suggeston, that list has no SCA people, just Dulcian collectors, and a couple of makers. You could get good info there for your next project, and probably a buyer or 2.

                        Donato
                      • Stu
                        ... Hi; I ve been known to make the odd instrument here and there. Okay I confess I m obsessed with making and especially researching them. I ve made from
                        Message 11 of 18 , Mar 31, 2011
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                          --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, <smay1968@...> wrote:
                          >

                          > So to that end I was wondering if there any instrument makers on the list.
                          >
                          > Steve/William
                          >

                          Hi;
                          I've been known to make the odd instrument here and there. Okay I confess I'm obsessed with making and especially researching them. I've made from bagpipes to strings to keyboards. Much fun. I started off making bagpipes for myself and today I make all sorts of things for others and for A&S projects. The latter is why I have a 5.5 foot long organistrum mounted on the wall.

                          If you want to get a start, you can't really go wrong working from Paul's pages. He has put together a fantastic resource. I made a cytol from his info about 5ish years back.

                          There are not many of us around making period instruments, but we are a dedicated lot.

                          Stu
                          MKa - Aleyn Wykington
                        • John LaTorre
                          ... That s quite a site! I m nowhere near that level of proficiency ... I guess that would be me. I ve made several harps, a hurdy-gurdy, a cittern, a few
                          Message 12 of 18 , Mar 31, 2011
                          • 0 Attachment
                            William wrote:
                            > Of late I've become interested in making period instruments (mainly inspired by Paul Butlers sitehttp://crab.rutgers.edu/~pbutler/instrum.html) and have made a couple of rebecs and Anglo-Saxon lyre and I'm in the process of making a citole.

                            That's quite a site! I'm nowhere near that level of proficiency
                            > So to that end I was wondering if there any instrument makers on the list.

                            I guess that would be me. I've made several harps, a hurdy-gurdy, a
                            cittern, a few psalteries, and several more modern instruments
                            (mandolins mostly). I have a "lute-like object" (basically a bowl-back
                            guitar) and a rebec under construction, and am trying to get up the
                            courage to make a Triple-ought steel string guitar, which I promise
                            myself to make once the others are done.

                            --Johann von Drachenfels
                            West Kingdom
                          • Scot Eddy
                            I ve made quite a few lyres (a batch for a former king of Ansteorra to give to each of the royals at Gulf War one year) and I made 1 citole based off Paul s
                            Message 13 of 18 , Mar 31, 2011
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                              I've made quite a few lyres (a batch for a former king of Ansteorra to give to each of the royals at Gulf War one year) and I made 1 citole based off Paul's site. Mine was no where near as cool as his, but I was proud of it. 

                              There is an Anglo-Saxon lyre yahoo group that has a nice mix of SCAdians and non SCAdians. Lots of activity on the list, too.

                              Grace and Peace,

                              Scot

                              --- On Wed, 3/30/11, smay1968@... <smay1968@...> wrote:

                              From: smay1968@... <smay1968@...>
                              Subject: [MedievalSawdust] Instrument makers on the list
                              To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                              Date: Wednesday, March 30, 2011, 10:39 PM

                               

                              Hi All
                              Firstly having recently joind the list to intro myself, I'm Steve Maynard known in the SCA as William Castille, I've been dabbling in period woodwork for a while.
                              Of late I've become interested in making period instruments (mainly inspired by Paul Butlers site http://crab.rutgers.edu/~pbutler/instrum.html) and have made a couple of rebecs and Anglo-Saxon lyre and I'm in the process of making a citole. So to that end I was wondering if there any instrument makers on the list.

                              Steve/William

                            • Steve Maynard
                              Hi Conal, What do you make your chairs out of? William From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com [mailto:medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jim Hart
                              Message 14 of 18 , Mar 31, 2011
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                                Hi Conal,

                                                                What do you make your chairs out of?

                                 

                                William

                                From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com [mailto:medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jim Hart
                                Sent: Wednesday, 30 March 2011 8:24 AM
                                To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] WOW Glastonbury Chairs

                                 

                                 

                                lol  not mythical these are folding versions of the Glastonbury chair

                                 

                                these are SCA event furniture... and I'm selling them too

                                 

                                so to keep the production time down I've been using screws and plugging the holes afterwards

                                ( same as the seat )

                                 

                                If I were asked to not use screws ( first I would charge a little more ) I would probably cut mortises

                                in the back's upright's and tenons on the gabled back board. I might wedge that tenon in place

                                but With modern glues..... not sure it would be needed.... I've been thinking of replacing my personal 

                                chairs...... maybe I'll get a chance to see.

                                 

                                and use M&T joints to assemble the seat also...

                                 

                                The originals use a wedged dowel to secure the parts when the chair is assembled. This version 

                                folds instead of being completely disassembled. The wooden pins in front of the gabled back

                                board are that way because it allows that chair to fold up smaller.

                                 

                                The pins are made from 1/4 rod and the section at the top that is folded over is meant to 

                                sit on the arm of the chair ( I have told him that now... lol )  

                                 

                                 

                                To fold this chair you remove the wooden pegs at the arm/back point, fold the arms and back down 

                                and then lift up on the seat and the legs fold up.....

                                 

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