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Period Methods for Turning

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  • Ron
    Wandering a bit off the topic of materials: I started playing in the SCA about 4 years ago after 20+ years as a power turner. If I have a claim to fame in
    Message 1 of 25 , Feb 6, 2011
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      Wandering a bit off the topic of materials:

      I started playing in the SCA about 4 years ago after 20+ years as a power turner. If I have a "claim to fame" in my area, its in turning lidded boxes with snap-fit lids.

      I've since built a spring pole lathe which I demo at events. I'm fairly comfortable turning bowls and cups with the wood held between centers, emulating the work of Robin Wood:
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mz7PJ2WuLWA&feature=related

      When I started researching period lathes, I asked a number of folks if there is any evidence that period turners knew how to hold an object from one end - faceplate or jam chuck. Everyone said, "No. They'd have had to create some kind of thrust bearing, and they didn't do that." But when I commented here about Roman turnings in Britain, someone implied that the Romans, in fact, did.

      Does anyone know of evidence, other than period pieces that seem to imply the need, for faceplate turning in period? Or, if they did that work between centers, what kinds of tools they used?

      Thanks!

      Bayard
    • Kristine Elliott
      The book you want is Carole A. Morris Wood and Woodworking in Anglo-Scandinavian and Medieval York. It has a section on turning that is nearly 100 pages long,
      Message 2 of 25 , Feb 6, 2011
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        The book you want is Carole A. Morris Wood and Woodworking in
        Anglo-Scandinavian and Medieval York. It has a section on turning that
        is nearly 100 pages long, based on finished objects, tools, offcuts
        and experimental archeology. It was published by York Archeological
        Trust in 2000.

        Scolastica

        On Sun, Feb 6, 2011 at 4:32 PM, Ron <williams@...> wrote:
        > Wandering a bit off the topic of materials:
        >
        > I started playing in the SCA about 4 years ago after 20+ years as a power turner.  If I have a "claim to fame" in my area, its in turning lidded boxes with snap-fit lids.
        >
        > I've since built a spring pole lathe which I demo at events.  I'm fairly comfortable turning bowls and cups with the wood held between centers, emulating the work of Robin Wood:
        > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mz7PJ2WuLWA&feature=related
        >
        > When I started researching period lathes, I asked a number of folks if there is any evidence that period turners knew how to hold an object from one end - faceplate or jam chuck.  Everyone said, "No.  They'd have had to create some kind of thrust bearing, and they didn't do that."  But when I commented here about Roman turnings in Britain, someone implied that the Romans, in fact, did.
        >
        > Does anyone know of evidence, other than period pieces that seem to imply the need, for faceplate turning in period?   Or, if they did that work between centers, what kinds of tools they used?
        >
        > Thanks!
        >
        > Bayard
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        >
        >
        >



        --
        --
        If you can't get rid of them ugly old skeletons in the closet, at least teach
        'em how to dance funny.  Billy C. Wirtz
      • Ralph
        ... Like you, I am a bit of a turner, I have a treadle lathe myself. I think the Roman boxes you are talking about are the ones found in digs, along the
        Message 3 of 25 , Feb 6, 2011
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          --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, "Ron" <williams@...> wrote:
          >
          > Wandering a bit off the topic of materials:
          >
          > I started playing in the SCA about 4 years ago after 20+ years as a power turner. If I have a "claim to fame" in my area, its in turning lidded boxes with snap-fit lids.
          >
          > I've since built a spring pole lathe which I demo at events. I'm fairly comfortable turning bowls and cups with the wood held between centers, emulating the work of Robin Wood:
          > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mz7PJ2WuLWA&feature=related
          >
          > When I started researching period lathes, I asked a number of folks if there is any evidence that period turners knew how to hold an object from one end - faceplate or jam chuck. Everyone said, "No. They'd have had to create some kind of thrust bearing, and they didn't do that." But when I commented here about Roman turnings in Britain, someone implied that the Romans, in fact, did.
          >
          > Does anyone know of evidence, other than period pieces that seem to imply the need, for faceplate turning in period? Or, if they did that work between centers, what kinds of tools they used?
          >
          Like you, I am a bit of a turner, I have a treadle lathe myself.

          I think the Roman boxes you are talking about are the ones found in digs, along the "wall". I seen them (in a video by Jimmy Clewes) and question how anyone could make them between centers.

          In the "Small Finds" book from the York Trust the author refers to faceplate turning being done in Novagrad at about this time. Certainly not proof, but suggestive, just as the Roman boxes.

          Lastly there are oval (not round, elliptical) boxes that were turned in the Germanies during the 15th and 16th centuries. We know, from the documents of the period, that these were turned on special lathes.
          From this, we know, that by late "period" there were not just face plates, but lathes with elliptical drive heads.
          We know that these drive heads can be made entirely of wood, as David Springett has both a DVD and a book (out of print) showing how to do it.
          On my "round to it" list for this year is to build an oval drive head for my treadle lathe.

          Personally I suspect that a treadle lathe might be required (vrs a pole lathe) for boxes. I know it would for oval turning

          Ralg
          AnTir
        • conradh@efn.org
          ... Don t forget a Great Wheel lathe, which is much simpler mechanically than a treadle. Also, watch out for illos of oval boxes from Germany/Scandinavia!
          Message 4 of 25 , Feb 7, 2011
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            On Sun, February 6, 2011 5:44 pm, Ralph wrote:
            >


            > Personally I suspect that a treadle lathe might be required (vrs a pole
            > lathe) for boxes. I know it would for oval turning
            >
            Don't forget a Great Wheel lathe, which is much simpler mechanically than
            a treadle.

            Also, watch out for illos of oval boxes from Germany/Scandinavia! They
            have a long tradition of oval boxes there that are made of bent veneer,
            not turned at all! They were found in the Oseberg ship burial, ISTR, and
            show up in about every other shop picture in the _Book of Trades_
            (Nuremberg, mid-1500's)

            Not saying an oval box couldn't be turned back then, but a crude drawing
            or woodcut of one proves nothing at all. An archaeological find of a
            solid wood one, now...

            I've been checking my sourcebooks, and so far I haven't found a single
            oval box that doesn't show the distinctive lap joint of the bentwood boxes
            on its side. Can you steer me to some sources that can show evidence of
            turned ones in period? Or has someone who knows about modern turning and
            doesn't know about bentwood written a book that reflects their own
            limitations?

            It's not just pickiness, either. Like the faceplate questions, it bears
            directly on what they could do with what they had, vs. what they could
            have done had they ever thought of it!

            Ulfhedinn
          • Duncan Sinclair
            There is also the spring pole lathe ala St. Roy Duncan Sinclair (MKA: Chris Anderson) Shire of Qal at Ja far and The Barony of Sternfeld Middle Kingdom
            Message 5 of 25 , Feb 7, 2011
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              There is also the spring pole lathe ala St. Roy
               
              Duncan Sinclair (MKA: Chris Anderson)
              Shire of Qal 'at Ja'far
              and
              The Barony of Sternfeld
              Middle Kingdom

              Greenwood #514, F&AM



              From: "conradh@..." <conradh@...>
              To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Mon, February 7, 2011 2:42:12 PM
              Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] Re: Period Methods for Turning

               

              On Sun, February 6, 2011 5:44 pm, Ralph wrote:
              >

              > Personally I suspect that a treadle lathe might be required (vrs a pole
              > lathe) for boxes. I know it would for oval turning
              >
              Don't forget a Great Wheel lathe, which is much simpler mechanically than
              a treadle.

              Also, watch out for illos of oval boxes from Germany/Scandinavia! They
              have a long tradition of oval boxes there that are made of bent veneer,
              not turned at all! They were found in the Oseberg ship burial, ISTR, and
              show up in about every other shop picture in the _Book of Trades_
              (Nuremberg, mid-1500's)

              Not saying an oval box couldn't be turned back then, but a crude drawing
              or woodcut of one proves nothing at all. An archaeological find of a
              solid wood one, now...

              I've been checking my sourcebooks, and so far I haven't found a single
              oval box that doesn't show the distinctive lap joint of the bentwood boxes
              on its side. Can you steer me to some sources that can show evidence of
              turned ones in period? Or has someone who knows about modern turning and
              doesn't know about bentwood written a book that reflects their own
              limitations?

              It's not just pickiness, either. Like the faceplate questions, it bears
              directly on what they could do with what they had, vs. what they could
              have done had they ever thought of it!

              Ulfhedinn


            • Ralph
              ... Actually the oval turned boxes still exist and are on display in museums in Germany. For some photo of one see here
              Message 6 of 25 , Feb 7, 2011
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                --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, conradh@... wrote:
                >

                > Not saying an oval box couldn't be turned back then, but a crude drawing
                > or woodcut of one proves nothing at all. An archaeological find of a
                > solid wood one, now...
                >
                > I've been checking my sourcebooks, and so far I haven't found a single
                > oval box that doesn't show the distinctive lap joint of the bentwood boxes
                > on its side. Can you steer me to some sources that can show evidence of
                > turned ones in period? Or has someone who knows about modern turning and
                > doesn't know about bentwood written a book that reflects their own
                > limitations?
                >

                Actually the oval turned boxes still exist and are on display in museums in Germany.
                For some photo of one see here
                http://www.volmer---ovaldrehen.de/_private/1Hystory.html#Hystory

                Ralg
                AnTir
              • Ron
                I don t have it (yet) but I ve seen it and read through that section. Unfortunately, she focuses entirely on between-center turning on a spring pole lathe.
                Message 7 of 25 , Feb 14, 2011
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                  I don't have it (yet) but I've seen it and read through that section. Unfortunately, she focuses entirely on between-center turning on a spring pole lathe. She even includes a photo of herself turning on one.

                  What concerns me is that I see her turning with modern gouges, and she seemed confused by the one hook tool found at York. I just got my copy of "Wood Use in Medieval Novgorod", and their section on turning references Morris. They show a number of tools that look like the reproduction hook tools I've been learning to use, but they refer to them as "Spoon carving knives." The longest, based on their printed scale, is 22 cm (8.7") with a forged tang. With a handle, it would probably be 12-18" long, awkward for spoon carving, but great for turning.

                  It seems that everyone references Morris, but if her assumptions about process are based on the wrong sort of tools, might others be misled when the find tools she doesn't recognize?

                  Regards!

                  Bayard

                  --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, Kristine Elliott <souriete@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > The book you want is Carole A. Morris Wood and Woodworking in
                  > Anglo-Scandinavian and Medieval York. It has a section on turning that
                  > is nearly 100 pages long, based on finished objects, tools, offcuts
                  > and experimental archeology. It was published by York Archeological
                  > Trust in 2000.
                  >
                  > Scolastica
                  >
                  >
                • Jeff
                  I was looking at those mislabeled spoon carving tools myself this weekend. Concur - turning hooks.
                  Message 8 of 25 , Feb 14, 2011
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                    I was looking at those mislabeled "spoon carving" tools myself this weekend. Concur - turning hooks.

                    --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, "Ron" <williams@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > I don't have it (yet) but I've seen it and read through that section. Unfortunately, she focuses entirely on between-center turning on a spring pole lathe. She even includes a photo of herself turning on one.
                    >
                    > What concerns me is that I see her turning with modern gouges, and she seemed confused by the one hook tool found at York. I just got my copy of "Wood Use in Medieval Novgorod", and their section on turning references Morris. They show a number of tools that look like the reproduction hook tools I've been learning to use, but they refer to them as "Spoon carving knives." The longest, based on their printed scale, is 22 cm (8.7") with a forged tang. With a handle, it would probably be 12-18" long, awkward for spoon carving, but great for turning.
                    >
                    > It seems that everyone references Morris, but if her assumptions about process are based on the wrong sort of tools, might others be misled when the find tools she doesn't recognize?
                    >
                    > Regards!
                    >
                    > Bayard
                    >
                    > --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, Kristine Elliott <souriete@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > The book you want is Carole A. Morris Wood and Woodworking in
                    > > Anglo-Scandinavian and Medieval York. It has a section on turning that
                    > > is nearly 100 pages long, based on finished objects, tools, offcuts
                    > > and experimental archeology. It was published by York Archeological
                    > > Trust in 2000.
                    > >
                    > > Scolastica
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                  • Haraldr Bassi (yahoo)
                    Greetings, Been a while since I posted on this list, been a bit busy with things and haven t paid much attention to some of my lists, such as this one. But
                    Message 9 of 25 , Feb 14, 2011
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                      Greetings,

                      Been a while since I posted on this list, been a bit busy with things and haven't paid much
                      attention to some of my lists, such as this one. But while transferring mail around happened to
                      see this subject which caught my attention.

                      Ms. Morris has done a fabulous service in her analysis and cataloging of medieval wooden
                      turnings, wood species etc.

                      However, the lengths she has gone in order to create a modern tool rest borders on the
                      excessive. She has taken a piece that was found in the weaving shed of the dig and transformed
                      it into a tool rest. The grain runs such that the piece should have broken off with moderate
                      pressure.

                      Having had a spring pole lathe in our camp at Pennsic patterned after the 1452 Mendel I lathe
                      and having access to a few of the bent shank turning hooks, I can say that they work much better
                      when the handle is held at the hip and the off hand is used to support the shank where it bends
                      and your fingers are feeling the work and the cutting hook as the wood spins under your hands.
                      The cutting takes place on the back/bottom of the piece where you can't see it. But you see the
                      effect. The spring pole is slow enough that the lack of sight doesn't matter. Watching the
                      effect is more than sufficient.

                      The movement of applying and removing the edge against the wood is natural and works with the
                      pumping effect of your legs. As you push down, you naturally bring the handle down and the blade
                      pivots into contact. As your leg returns back, your rear hand also rises which pivots the edge
                      away from the surface.

                      Sounds much more complicated than it is, but it is most definitely a thing you need to
                      experience and feel.

                      We do still use modern gouges, simply because we don't always have enough of the correct shape
                      hooks. When we use a modern gouge, we support it with a block of wood that we brace against the
                      broad lathe bed.

                      BTW, if anyone knows of a source for green wood suitable for spring pole turning in the vicinity
                      of Ansteorra, please, please, please drop me a private note (or at least CC me and post to the
                      list). I've been looking for a species down here that would be available green and suitable for
                      turning and have yet to even find a species available that would work.

                      Thanks,
                      Haraldr Bassi, House True String
                      ... can be located in Budgardr at Pennsic in W09 behind Enchanted Ground, rest of the year in
                      Barony of Bjornsborg, Ansteorra (formerly from the East Kingdom).


                      On 2/14/11 4:51 PM, Ron wrote:
                      > I don't have it (yet) but I've seen it and read through that section. Unfortunately, she focuses entirely on between-center turning on a spring pole lathe. She even includes a photo of herself turning on one.
                      >
                      > What concerns me is that I see her turning with modern gouges, and she seemed confused by the one hook tool found at York. I just got my copy of "Wood Use in Medieval Novgorod", and their section on turning references Morris. They show a number of tools that look like the reproduction hook tools I've been learning to use, but they refer to them as "Spoon carving knives." The longest, based on their printed scale, is 22 cm (8.7") with a forged tang. With a handle, it would probably be 12-18" long, awkward for spoon carving, but great for turning.
                      >
                      > It seems that everyone references Morris, but if her assumptions about process are based on the wrong sort of tools, might others be misled when the find tools she doesn't recognize?
                      >
                      > Regards!
                      >
                      > Bayard
                      >
                      > --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, Kristine Elliott<souriete@...> wrote:
                      >>
                      >> The book you want is Carole A. Morris Wood and Woodworking in
                      >> Anglo-Scandinavian and Medieval York. It has a section on turning that
                      >> is nearly 100 pages long, based on finished objects, tools, offcuts
                      >> and experimental archeology. It was published by York Archeological
                      >> Trust in 2000.
                      >>
                      >> Scolastica
                      >>
                      >>
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------
                      >
                      >
                      >
                    • conradh@efn.org
                      ... Herra minn: I have heard that the Skraelings in Ansteorra used Osage Orange to make their bows in days gone by. Any wood suitable for bows should make a
                      Message 10 of 25 , Feb 14, 2011
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                        On Mon, February 14, 2011 6:55 pm, Haraldr Bassi (yahoo) wrote:

                        > BTW, if anyone knows of a source for green wood suitable for spring pole
                        > turning in the vicinity of Ansteorra, please, please, please drop me a
                        > private note (or at least CC me and post to the list). I've been looking
                        > for a species down here that would be available green and suitable for
                        > turning and have yet to even find a species available that would work.


                        Herra minn: I have heard that the Skraelings in Ansteorra used Osage
                        Orange to make their bows in days gone by.

                        Any wood suitable for bows should make a fine lathe pole.

                        Ulfhedinn
                      • Beth & Bob Matney
                        Bent knives (nearly identical in blade shape to those found in Novgorod) are in use in wood carving today, especially in Switzerland, and are available for
                        Message 11 of 25 , Feb 15, 2011
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                          Bent knives (nearly identical in blade shape to those found in
                          Novgorod) are in use in wood carving today, especially in
                          Switzerland, and are available for purchase. We have several. A
                          similar knife (of slightly different pattern) is in use in native
                          American wood crafts. I am referring to items 164, 376, 377 'Wood use
                          in medieval Novgorod' (note from the scale in photos: that the radius
                          if the curve is appox. 1.5 cm. Fig 111 & 112 (labeled 'Tveegget
                          hulmeisel' and 'Enegget hulmeisel') on pg 207 (see pg 214 in text,
                          translation will have to be by someone with greater language skills)
                          of Petersen's 'Vikingetidens Redskaper' unfortunately do not give
                          scale. You may also want to look at R408 & R412 of
                          http://familjen-persson.se/rygh/page-17.html from Ryghe's 'Norske
                          oldsager ordnede og forklarede'

                          I am not arguing that lathe tools with curved edges (hooks) of
                          similar shape were not also used. This is explicitly stated on pg. 22
                          of Volume 1 in Kolchin's 'Wooden Artifacts from Medieval Novgorod':
                          "Lathe tools of two types were manufactured: those with hooked blades
                          designed to hollow out the processed object, and with straight blades
                          for finishing."
                          see also pg 23
                          "Hand tools for making spoons closely resembled hooked lathe tools
                          but were smaller. Tools employed carving had either irregularly
                          shaped blades or TT shaped blades fitted to longer handles."
                          A drawing of a reconstructed 'hand cutter' (#6 of plate 7) is shown
                          on pg 249 of Volume 2. See also Pl. 144 'Wood cutting instruments' on
                          pg 390. A drawing of a reconstructed lathe is on pg 370.

                          Do you happen to remember the citation for the York tool?

                          Regards,
                          Beth Matney

                          At 08:53 PM 2/14/2011, you wrote:
                          >
                          >I was looking at those mislabeled "spoon carving" tools myself this
                          >weekend. Concur - turning hooks.
                          >
                          >--- In
                          ><mailto:medievalsawdust%40yahoogroups.com>medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com,
                          >"Ron" <williams@...> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > I don't have it (yet) but I've seen it and read through that
                          > section. Unfortunately, she focuses entirely on between-center
                          > turning on a spring pole lathe. She even includes a photo of
                          > herself turning on one.
                          > >
                          > > What concerns me is that I see her turning with modern gouges,
                          > and she seemed confused by the one hook tool found at York. I just
                          > got my copy of "Wood Use in Medieval Novgorod", and their section
                          > on turning references Morris. They show a number of tools that look
                          > like the reproduction hook tools I've been learning to use, but
                          > they refer to them as "Spoon carving knives." The longest, based on
                          > their printed scale, is 22 cm (8.7") with a forged tang. With a
                          > handle, it would probably be 12-18" long, awkward for spoon
                          > carving, but great for turning.
                          > >
                          > > It seems that everyone references Morris, but if her assumptions
                          > about process are based on the wrong sort of tools, might others be
                          > misled when the find tools she doesn't recognize?
                          > >
                          > > Regards!
                          > >
                          > > Bayard
                          > >
                          > > --- In
                          > <mailto:medievalsawdust%40yahoogroups.com>medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com,
                          > Kristine Elliott <souriete@> wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > The book you want is Carole A. Morris Wood and Woodworking in
                          > > > Anglo-Scandinavian and Medieval York. It has a section on turning that
                          > > > is nearly 100 pages long, based on finished objects, tools, offcuts
                          > > > and experimental archeology. It was published by York Archeological
                          > > > Trust in 2000.
                          > > >
                          > > > Scolastica
                        • Haraldr Bassi (yahoo)
                          While Osage Orange would have some good characteristics for use as a spring pole for a lathe, it would likely be inappropriate for use as turning stock for
                          Message 12 of 25 , Feb 16, 2011
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                            While Osage Orange would have some good characteristics for use as a spring pole for a lathe, it
                            would likely be inappropriate for use as turning stock for bowls (I don't think it grows large
                            enough).

                            To clarify what I am seeking, it needs to be a species in or near enough to Ansteorra that I can
                            get it freshly harvested and keep it soaking until I receive it. Once it dries out it is very
                            difficult to work again. Alder and Maple are the species most found in medieval contexts. I've
                            turned maple before and really enjoy it and would likely enjoy turning Alder as well, though
                            I've never had any personal experience with that species. There were some examples of other
                            species found in Yorvik but I'm more inclined to trust that the species that comprised 90% of
                            the finds were chosen for a reason.

                            For smaller projects (cups and spindles), other species are often suitable, such as black walnut
                            or cherry from prior experiences.

                            BTW, I will be at Gulf War annually so obviously if I could locate a source out there, I could
                            plan to bring almost a years worth of turning stock home each year so the search could easily
                            extend into Gleann Abhain.

                            Unfortunately until I can locate a source of green wood raw materials, I am very reluctant to
                            spend the hours to build my own spring pole lathe (though I have all of the wood needed to build
                            it). I'd hate to build a lathe and have it sit around for lack of materials.

                            If you have any ideas or suggestions, please let me know.

                            Thanks,
                            Haraldr




                            On 2/14/11 11:21 PM, conradh@... wrote:
                            > On Mon, February 14, 2011 6:55 pm, Haraldr Bassi (yahoo) wrote:
                            >
                            >> BTW, if anyone knows of a source for green wood suitable for spring pole
                            >> turning in the vicinity of Ansteorra, please, please, please drop me a
                            >> private note (or at least CC me and post to the list). I've been looking
                            >> for a species down here that would be available green and suitable for
                            >> turning and have yet to even find a species available that would work.
                            >
                            >
                            > Herra minn: I have heard that the Skraelings in Ansteorra used Osage
                            > Orange to make their bows in days gone by.
                            >
                            > Any wood suitable for bows should make a fine lathe pole.
                            >
                            > Ulfhedinn
                            >
                          • Vels inn Viggladi
                            ... Stop by Odyssey Coffee while you are at Gulf, talk to Dave (he owns the place). He knows the wood sources around Lake Pontchartrain and keeps reminding me
                            Message 13 of 25 , Feb 16, 2011
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                              > BTW, I will be at Gulf War annually so obviously if I could locate a source out there, I could
                              > plan to bring almost a years worth of turning stock home each year so the search could easily
                              > extend into Gleann Abhain.
                              >
                              >
                              > Thanks,
                              > Haraldr


                              Stop by Odyssey Coffee while you are at Gulf, talk to Dave (he owns the place). He knows the wood sources around Lake Pontchartrain and keeps reminding me that there's a guy not far from him with metric tons of cherry heartwood that I could load up from and have more wood than I can use for quite some time.




                              Vels
                            • Ralph
                              ... Sorry, I know it does, I have some large enough and have turned bowls from it. ... Probably also because Maple (Alder, etc) grow well in a York type
                              Message 14 of 25 , Feb 17, 2011
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                                --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, "Haraldr Bassi (yahoo)" <yahoo@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > While Osage Orange would have some good characteristics for use as a spring pole for a lathe, it
                                > would likely be inappropriate for use as turning stock for bowls (I don't think it grows large
                                > enough).
                                >
                                Sorry, I know it does, I have some large enough and have turned bowls from it.

                                > To clarify what I am seeking, it needs to be a species in or near enough to Ansteorra that I can
                                > get it freshly harvested and keep it soaking until I receive it. Once it dries out it is very
                                > difficult to work again. Alder and Maple are the species most found in medieval contexts. I've
                                > turned maple before and really enjoy it and would likely enjoy turning Alder as well, though
                                > I've never had any personal experience with that species. There were some examples of other
                                > species found in Yorvik but I'm more inclined to trust that the species that comprised 90% of
                                > the finds were chosen for a reason.
                                >
                                Probably also because Maple (Alder, etc) grow well in a York type climate.

                                > For smaller projects (cups and spindles), other species are often suitable, such as black walnut
                                > or cherry from prior experiences.

                                Might I again suggest that black walnut or cherry grow quite large. I have 15/16 inch blanks for both in the shop now. Plus a 20 inch (40/50 foot tall) Cherry in the back still growing.
                                Probably most of the Cherry and Walnut you have ever seen comes from Orchard trees, not Timber trees


                                > BTW, I will be at Gulf War annually so obviously if I could locate a source out there, I could
                                > plan to bring almost a years worth of turning stock home each year so the search could easily
                                > extend into Gleann Abhain.
                                >
                                The best place to look for turning stock, is turners. Last weekend I bought green Madrone burl, there were chucks up to 350 lbs. I knew where to get it due to my being an a modern turning club.

                                > Unfortunately until I can locate a source of green wood raw materials, I am very reluctant to
                                > spend the hours to build my own spring pole lathe (though I have all of the wood needed to build
                                > it). I'd hate to build a lathe and have it sit around for lack of materials.
                                >
                                One place you could start is http://www.woodfinder.com/

                                Another is locating local turning clubs via http://www.aaw.org

                                Ralg
                                AnTir
                              • Ralph
                                ... I think it s in the Small Finds (wood) book from the York trust. I don t think it s in the Metal finds (I have both, but it might take me some time to find
                                Message 15 of 25 , Feb 17, 2011
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                                  --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, Beth & Bob Matney <bmatney2000@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  ...
                                  >
                                  > Do you happen to remember the citation for the York tool?
                                  >
                                  I think it's in the Small Finds (wood) book from the York trust. I don't think it's in the Metal finds (I have both, but it might take me some time to find the pages, etc)

                                  A really good source for hook tools, including more modern hook tools would be Robin Woods book "Wooden Bowl" and the section on turning in Mary Rose book (done by Robin)

                                  Ralg
                                  AnTir
                                • Ralph
                                  ... PS Don t assume that is true for everywhere. I have seen turnings down entirely with Hook tools, including the final cut. Heck, I ve done it Ralg AnTir
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Feb 17, 2011
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                                    --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, Beth & Bob Matney <bmatney2000@...> wrote:

                                    >
                                    > I am not arguing that lathe tools with curved edges (hooks) of
                                    > similar shape were not also used. This is explicitly stated on pg. 22
                                    > of Volume 1 in Kolchin's 'Wooden Artifacts from Medieval Novgorod':
                                    > "Lathe tools of two types were manufactured: those with hooked blades
                                    > designed to hollow out the processed object, and with straight blades
                                    > for finishing."
                                    >

                                    PS
                                    Don't assume that is true for everywhere. I have seen turnings down entirely with Hook tools, including the final cut. Heck, I've done it

                                    Ralg
                                    AnTir
                                  • D. Young
                                    I have some hang ups with those hooks. Fine Armour and Historical Reproductions Custom Commissions Welcome....! www.partsandtechnical.com (Well Formed
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Feb 18, 2011
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                                      I have some hang ups with those hooks.






                                      Fine Armour and Historical Reproductions

                                           Custom Commissions Welcome....!

                                      www.partsandtechnical.com
                                      (Well Formed Munitions Catalog Coming This Spring)
                                       





                                      To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                                      From: n7bsn@...
                                      Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2011 06:12:28 +0000
                                      Subject: [MedievalSawdust] Re: Period Methods for Turning

                                       


                                      --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, Beth & Bob Matney <bmatney2000@...> wrote:

                                      >
                                      > I am not arguing that lathe tools with curved edges (hooks) of
                                      > similar shape were not also used. This is explicitly stated on pg. 22
                                      > of Volume 1 in Kolchin's 'Wooden Artifacts from Medieval Novgorod':
                                      > "Lathe tools of two types were manufactured: those with hooked blades
                                      > designed to hollow out the processed object, and with straight blades
                                      > for finishing."
                                      >

                                      PS
                                      Don't assume that is true for everywhere. I have seen turnings down entirely with Hook tools, including the final cut. Heck, I've done it

                                      Ralg
                                      AnTir


                                    • Bill McNutt
                                      Whew. Southern by the Grace of God. I keep forgetting that people live in places where they can t just ask around to find out who had a hardwood tree blown
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Feb 21, 2011
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                                        Whew.  Southern by the Grace of God. I keep forgetting that people live in places where they can’t just ask around to find out who had a hardwood tree blown over in the last storm.

                                         

                                        There are many fine things about Ansteorra.  But I hear finding turning blanks ain’t one of ‘em.

                                         

                                        With sympathy,

                                        Will

                                         

                                        From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com [mailto:medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Haraldr Bassi (yahoo)

                                        Unfortunately until I can locate a source of green wood raw materials, I am very reluctant to
                                        spend the hours to build my own spring pole lathe (though I have all of the wood needed to build
                                        it). I'd hate to build a lathe and have it sit around for lack of materials.

                                        If you have any ideas or suggestions, please let me know.

                                        Thanks,
                                        Haraldr

                                        On 2/14/11 11:21 PM, conradh@... wrote:
                                        > On Mon, February 14, 2011 6:55 pm, Haraldr Bassi (yahoo) wrote:
                                        >
                                        >> BTW, if anyone knows of a source for green wood suitable for spring pole
                                        >> turning in the vicinity of Ansteorra, please, please, please drop me a
                                        >> private note (or at least CC me and post to the list). I've been looking
                                        >> for a species down here that would be available green and suitable for
                                        >> turning and have yet to even find a species available that would work.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Herra minn: I have heard that the Skraelings in Ansteorra used Osage
                                        > Orange to make their bows in days gone by.
                                        >
                                        > Any wood suitable for bows should make a fine lathe pole.
                                        >
                                        > Ulfhedinn
                                        >

                                      • Haraldr Bassi (yahoo)
                                        Several times in the past, before moving down here to Ansteorra, I would simply grab my chainsaw and head out into other areas of the farm my house was on in
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Feb 21, 2011
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                                          Several times in the past, before moving down here to Ansteorra, I would simply grab my chainsaw
                                          and head out into other areas of the farm my house was on in upstate NY and drop a maple that
                                          was the right size for what I wanted. Not really an option anymore :)

                                          Haraldr

                                          On 2/21/11 3:42 PM, Bill McNutt wrote:
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Whew. Southern by the Grace of God. I keep forgetting that people live in places where they
                                          > can’t just ask around to find out who had a hardwood tree blown over in the last storm.
                                          >
                                          > There are many fine things about Ansteorra. But I hear finding turning blanks ain’t one of ‘em.
                                          >
                                          > With sympathy,
                                          >
                                          > Will
                                          >
                                          > *From:*medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com [mailto:medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com] *On Behalf Of
                                          > *Haraldr Bassi (yahoo)
                                          >
                                          > Unfortunately until I can locate a source of green wood raw materials, I am very reluctant to
                                          > spend the hours to build my own spring pole lathe (though I have all of the wood needed to build
                                          > it). I'd hate to build a lathe and have it sit around for lack of materials.
                                          >
                                          > If you have any ideas or suggestions, please let me know.
                                          >
                                          > Thanks,
                                          > Haraldr
                                          >
                                          > On 2/14/11 11:21 PM, conradh@... <mailto:conradh%40efn.org> wrote:
                                          > > On Mon, February 14, 2011 6:55 pm, Haraldr Bassi (yahoo) wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > >> BTW, if anyone knows of a source for green wood suitable for spring pole
                                          > >> turning in the vicinity of Ansteorra, please, please, please drop me a
                                          > >> private note (or at least CC me and post to the list). I've been looking
                                          > >> for a species down here that would be available green and suitable for
                                          > >> turning and have yet to even find a species available that would work.
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > Herra minn: I have heard that the Skraelings in Ansteorra used Osage
                                          > > Orange to make their bows in days gone by.
                                          > >
                                          > > Any wood suitable for bows should make a fine lathe pole.
                                          > >
                                          > > Ulfhedinn
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                        • Ralph
                                          ... Purty much what it is around here. So many good trees with grow here, and grow well... ... I know a couple turners in eastern/coastal Texas that get
                                          Message 20 of 25 , Feb 21, 2011
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                                            --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, "Bill McNutt" <mcnutt@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Whew. Southern by the Grace of God. I keep forgetting that people live in
                                            > places where they can't just ask around to find out who had a hardwood tree
                                            > blown over in the last storm.
                                            >
                                            Purty much what it is around here. So many good trees with grow here, and grow well...

                                            >
                                            > There are many fine things about Ansteorra. But I hear finding turning
                                            > blanks ain't one of 'em.
                                            >
                                            I know a couple turners in eastern/coastal Texas that get their's easy.

                                            But one big source, if you live "in town", is the trees many cities plant along the streets.
                                            Many "dumps" have special areas for dumping trees and stumps. Some of them let locals extract wood.
                                            The local county has contacts for both the local carving club and the turning club, they pass these along to people that want help disposing of special trees

                                            Ralg
                                            AnTir (the wet part)
                                          • D. Young
                                            I just caught something I mus have missed... Folks, check on craigslist. I get a lot of free felled trees that way. You can hire a person to cut the tree
                                            Message 21 of 25 , Feb 21, 2011
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                                              I just caught something I mus have missed...

                                              Folks, check on craigslist.   I get a lot of free felled trees that way.    You can hire a person to cut the tree in sizes you need.  Or ask the person cutting for ideal stock.

                                              Also, you can rent a trailer or Uhaul to move big pieces (get a few friends to help).

                                              And after a big storm its often a great time to drive around neighborhoods looking for wood.


                                              The simple reality is that in todays suburban world, most the wood will end up at the dump.   And while Im not against recyling mother nature, such wooden nutrient are rather moot in a pile of toxic junk, so you might as well as take it.    The other obvious reason is firewood.   

                                              I burn a lot of my scraps....after a typical year of getting trees, I often have a cord or two of wood (in small pieces and scraps) left for burning.


                                              And dont be afraid to advertise on craigstlist.... Ive gotten many responses such that I cant even take it all

                                              If local members joined up to help move the wood, hire a tree company to take it down, etc.....its a great chance to get green wood.

                                              It breaks my heart seeing a big tree being cut up.


                                              My folks once felled a 6 diameter foot white oak....and before I could convince them the lumber alone would pay for the tree removal service, they had it chopped up into tiny firewood pieces.    Sigh. Double sigh.

                                              Oh and craigslistis also a great place to advertise for guys who have mobile sawmills.   Ya know, the kinds on trailers.



                                              Good luck

                                              Drew



                                              Fine Armour and Historical Reproductions

                                                   Custom Commissions Welcome....!

                                              www.partsandtechnical.com
                                              (Well Formed Munitions Catalog Coming This Spring)
                                               




                                              > To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                                              > CC: mcnutt@...
                                              > From: yahoo@...
                                              > Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 19:46:02 -0600
                                              > Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] Re: Period Methods for Turning
                                              >
                                              > Several times in the past, before moving down here to Ansteorra, I would simply grab my chainsaw
                                              > and head out into other areas of the farm my house was on in upstate NY and drop a maple that
                                              > was the right size for what I wanted. Not really an option anymore :)
                                              >
                                              > Haraldr
                                              >
                                              > On 2/21/11 3:42 PM, Bill McNutt wrote:
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > Whew. Southern by the Grace of God. I keep forgetting that people live in places where they
                                              > > can’t just ask around to find out who had a hardwood tree blown over in the last storm.
                                              > >
                                              > > There are many fine things about Ansteorra. But I hear finding turning blanks ain’t one of ‘em.
                                              > >
                                              > > With sympathy,
                                              > >
                                              > > Will
                                              > >
                                              > > *From:*medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com [mailto:medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com] *On Behalf Of
                                              > > *Haraldr Bassi (yahoo)
                                              > >
                                              > > Unfortunately until I can locate a source of green wood raw materials, I am very reluctant to
                                              > > spend the hours to build my own spring pole lathe (though I have all of the wood needed to build
                                              > > it). I'd hate to build a lathe and have it sit around for lack of materials.
                                              > >
                                              > > If you have any ideas or suggestions, please let me know.
                                              > >
                                              > > Thanks,
                                              > > Haraldr
                                              > >
                                              > > On 2/14/11 11:21 PM, conradh@... <mailto:conradh%40efn.org> wrote:
                                              > > > On Mon, February 14, 2011 6:55 pm, Haraldr Bassi (yahoo) wrote:
                                              > > >
                                              > > >> BTW, if anyone knows of a source for green wood suitable for spring pole
                                              > > >> turning in the vicinity of Ansteorra, please, please, please drop me a
                                              > > >> private note (or at least CC me and post to the list). I've been looking
                                              > > >> for a species down here that would be available green and suitable for
                                              > > >> turning and have yet to even find a species available that would work.
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Herra minn: I have heard that the Skraelings in Ansteorra used Osage
                                              > > > Orange to make their bows in days gone by.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Any wood suitable for bows should make a fine lathe pole.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Ulfhedinn
                                              > > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > ------------------------------------
                                              >
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                                              >
                                              > <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
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                                              >
                                            • james
                                              Before moving to Maine when I lived in Raleigh, we called it stump jumping . I rarely lacked for turning material and would just keep my eyes open driving
                                              Message 22 of 25 , Feb 22, 2011
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                                                Before moving to Maine when I lived in Raleigh, we called it "stump jumping". I rarely lacked for turning material and would just keep my eyes open driving around the city. The only problem was it was often cut to short lengths. In 1996 after both hurricane Bertha and Fran hit, it got ridiculous with a stash that went from large white oak to sizeable ginko and black walnut. Unfortunately, that's also the October I moved and was forced to abandon my treasure. A second advantage was that the city loved to use Bradford pear as one of it's street trees and they could get up to over 1' in diameter.

                                                Cedric

                                                --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, "D. Young" <furnaceplans@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > I just caught something I mus have missed...
                                                >
                                                > Folks, check on craigslist. I get a lot of free felled trees that way. You can hire a person to cut the tree in sizes you need. Or ask the person cutting for ideal stock.
                                                >
                                                > Also, you can rent a trailer or Uhaul to move big pieces (get a few friends to help).
                                                >
                                                > And after a big storm its often a great time to drive around neighborhoods looking for wood.
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > The simple reality is that in todays suburban world, most the wood will end up at the dump. And while Im not against recyling mother nature, such wooden nutrient are rather moot in a pile of toxic junk, so you might as well as take it. The other obvious reason is firewood.
                                                >
                                                > I burn a lot of my scraps....after a typical year of getting trees, I often have a cord or two of wood (in small pieces and scraps) left for burning.
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > And dont be afraid to advertise on craigstlist.... Ive gotten many responses such that I cant even take it all
                                                >
                                                > If local members joined up to help move the wood, hire a tree company to take it down, etc.....its a great chance to get green wood.
                                                >
                                                > It breaks my heart seeing a big tree being cut up.
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > My folks once felled a 6 diameter foot white oak....and before I could convince them the lumber alone would pay for the tree removal service, they had it chopped up into tiny firewood pieces. Sigh. Double sigh.
                                                >
                                                > Oh and craigslistis also a great place to advertise for guys who have mobile sawmills. Ya know, the kinds on trailers.
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Good luck
                                                >
                                                > Drew
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Fine Armour and Historical Reproductions
                                                >
                                                > Custom Commissions Welcome....!
                                                > www.partsandtechnical.com
                                                >
                                                > (Well Formed Munitions Catalog Coming This Spring)
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > > To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                                                > > CC: mcnutt@...
                                                > > From: yahoo@...
                                                > > Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 19:46:02 -0600
                                                > > Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] Re: Period Methods for Turning
                                                > >
                                                > > Several times in the past, before moving down here to Ansteorra, I would simply grab my chainsaw
                                                > > and head out into other areas of the farm my house was on in upstate NY and drop a maple that
                                                > > was the right size for what I wanted. Not really an option anymore :)
                                                > >
                                                > > Haraldr
                                                > >
                                                > > On 2/21/11 3:42 PM, Bill McNutt wrote:
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > > Whew. Southern by the Grace of God. I keep forgetting that people live in places where they
                                                > > > can't just ask around to find out who had a hardwood tree blown over in the last storm.
                                                > > >
                                                > > > There are many fine things about Ansteorra. But I hear finding turning blanks ain't one of `em.
                                                > > >
                                                > > > With sympathy,
                                                > > >
                                                > > > Will
                                                > > >
                                                > > > *From:*medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com [mailto:medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com] *On Behalf Of
                                                > > > *Haraldr Bassi (yahoo)
                                                > > >
                                                > > > Unfortunately until I can locate a source of green wood raw materials, I am very reluctant to
                                                > > > spend the hours to build my own spring pole lathe (though I have all of the wood needed to build
                                                > > > it). I'd hate to build a lathe and have it sit around for lack of materials.
                                                > > >
                                                > > > If you have any ideas or suggestions, please let me know.
                                                > > >
                                                > > > Thanks,
                                                > > > Haraldr
                                                > > >
                                                > > > On 2/14/11 11:21 PM, conradh@... <mailto:conradh%40efn.org> wrote:
                                                > > > > On Mon, February 14, 2011 6:55 pm, Haraldr Bassi (yahoo) wrote:
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >> BTW, if anyone knows of a source for green wood suitable for spring pole
                                                > > > >> turning in the vicinity of Ansteorra, please, please, please drop me a
                                                > > > >> private note (or at least CC me and post to the list). I've been looking
                                                > > > >> for a species down here that would be available green and suitable for
                                                > > > >> turning and have yet to even find a species available that would work.
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > Herra minn: I have heard that the Skraelings in Ansteorra used Osage
                                                > > > > Orange to make their bows in days gone by.
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > Any wood suitable for bows should make a fine lathe pole.
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > Ulfhedinn
                                                > > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > ------------------------------------
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                >
                                              • conradh@efn.org
                                                ... Also private trees from yards and farms. You can often make the same arrangements with tree surgeons as Ralg describes for city workers. Or just get
                                                Message 23 of 25 , Feb 22, 2011
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  On Mon, February 21, 2011 7:25 pm, Ralph wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > But one big source, if you live "in town", is the trees many cities plant
                                                  > along the streets. Many "dumps" have special areas for dumping trees and
                                                  > stumps. Some of them let locals extract wood. The local county has
                                                  > contacts for both the local carving club and the turning club, they pass
                                                  > these along to people that want help disposing of special trees
                                                  >
                                                  Also private trees from yards and farms. You can often make the same
                                                  arrangements with tree surgeons as Ralg describes for city workers. Or
                                                  just get known as someone who can and will cut trees down for neighbors.
                                                  I got a good deal of nice cherry that way last year. There are three very
                                                  old walnut trees on my own place that are not doing well, so over the next
                                                  year or two I'll be getting that.

                                                  Obviously, you need to know what you're doing! Also, in town you can
                                                  seldom just drop a whole tree and work it up on the ground; usually you'll
                                                  have to climb and take it down piece by piece. With the risk of putting a
                                                  limb through somebody's window or across their satellite dish, added to
                                                  the risks of running a chain saw while perched in a tree/on a ladder, PLUS
                                                  all the usual pucker factor of working in the woods. Be careful, and
                                                  think everything through three times! Watch the pros work, but don't just
                                                  imitate them because a lot of professionals are macho idiots who are too
                                                  young to imagine getting hurt. Pay attention to how the _old_ ones do it!

                                                  You really need a pickup or trailer to take advantage of these sudden
                                                  opportunities. Most people who are cutting trees or wanting them gone
                                                  want them gone _now_, so they can get on with their building project, or
                                                  repairing whatever the tree fell down on. Professionals will often give
                                                  you all you want, if you help load it and can take it away by the end of
                                                  the day. If you don't have the truck or trailer yourself, do you have a
                                                  friend with one? Perhaps you can team up.

                                                  Have some heavy lifting ability handy! A gang of friends, some
                                                  come-alongs, a flatbed truck with a winch mounted at the cab end of the
                                                  bed, some kind of crane...Professionals may have these, but sometimes pros
                                                  just cut a tree into really small pieces to reduce handling efforts, and
                                                  if you want nice long pieces you may have to lift and load them yourself.

                                                  Finally, the good news is that urban trees often have highly figured wood.
                                                  The bad news is that they rarely have clear, straight grain. Only
                                                  occasionally will you get wood you can rive; figure on ripsawing almost
                                                  any long piece you prepare. Good splitting wood usually comes from dense
                                                  forest, where the trees shade out each other's low branches. Branches
                                                  equal knots. In town young, growing trees are rarely shaded that much;
                                                  many of them were deliberately in full sun for the sake of the shade
                                                  they'd make on the house or ground!

                                                  Ulfhedinn

                                                  also in the wet side of AnTir
                                                • Ralph
                                                  Off one of the wood-turning groups I m on One of the guys in Plano Tx just got several 20 (dia) logs of Mulberry. Another reports that the highway department
                                                  Message 24 of 25 , Feb 23, 2011
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                                                    Off one of the wood-turning groups I'm on

                                                    One of the guys in Plano Tx just got several 20'(dia) logs of Mulberry.

                                                    Another reports that the highway department has cut down 100 large oaks on 183 on the north side of the road east of Precient Road.

                                                    Green wood can be found lots of places

                                                    Ralg
                                                    AnTir
                                                  • lorderec
                                                    in these parts the tree guys have big loaders with grappling on the front, they hardly cut the tree very much at all, jus tpick it up and dump in the 80,000 lb
                                                    Message 25 of 25 , Mar 8 6:36 PM
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                                                      in these parts the tree guys have big loaders with grappling on the front, they hardly cut the tree very much at all, jus tpick it up and dump in the 80,000 lb truck and off it goes...

                                                      --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, conradh@... wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      > On Mon, February 21, 2011 7:25 pm, Ralph wrote:
                                                      > >
                                                      > > But one big source, if you live "in town", is the trees many cities plant
                                                      > > along the streets. Many "dumps" have special areas for dumping trees and
                                                      > > stumps. Some of them let locals extract wood. The local county has
                                                      > > contacts for both the local carving club and the turning club, they pass
                                                      > > these along to people that want help disposing of special trees
                                                      > >
                                                      > Also private trees from yards and farms. You can often make the same
                                                      > arrangements with tree surgeons as Ralg describes for city workers. Or
                                                      > just get known as someone who can and will cut trees down for neighbors.
                                                      > I got a good deal of nice cherry that way last year. There are three very
                                                      > old walnut trees on my own place that are not doing well, so over the next
                                                      > year or two I'll be getting that.
                                                      >
                                                      > Obviously, you need to know what you're doing! Also, in town you can
                                                      > seldom just drop a whole tree and work it up on the ground; usually you'll
                                                      > have to climb and take it down piece by piece. With the risk of putting a
                                                      > limb through somebody's window or across their satellite dish, added to
                                                      > the risks of running a chain saw while perched in a tree/on a ladder, PLUS
                                                      > all the usual pucker factor of working in the woods. Be careful, and
                                                      > think everything through three times! Watch the pros work, but don't just
                                                      > imitate them because a lot of professionals are macho idiots who are too
                                                      > young to imagine getting hurt. Pay attention to how the _old_ ones do it!
                                                      >
                                                      > You really need a pickup or trailer to take advantage of these sudden
                                                      > opportunities. Most people who are cutting trees or wanting them gone
                                                      > want them gone _now_, so they can get on with their building project, or
                                                      > repairing whatever the tree fell down on. Professionals will often give
                                                      > you all you want, if you help load it and can take it away by the end of
                                                      > the day. If you don't have the truck or trailer yourself, do you have a
                                                      > friend with one? Perhaps you can team up.
                                                      >
                                                      > Have some heavy lifting ability handy! A gang of friends, some
                                                      > come-alongs, a flatbed truck with a winch mounted at the cab end of the
                                                      > bed, some kind of crane...Professionals may have these, but sometimes pros
                                                      > just cut a tree into really small pieces to reduce handling efforts, and
                                                      > if you want nice long pieces you may have to lift and load them yourself.
                                                      >
                                                      > Finally, the good news is that urban trees often have highly figured wood.
                                                      > The bad news is that they rarely have clear, straight grain. Only
                                                      > occasionally will you get wood you can rive; figure on ripsawing almost
                                                      > any long piece you prepare. Good splitting wood usually comes from dense
                                                      > forest, where the trees shade out each other's low branches. Branches
                                                      > equal knots. In town young, growing trees are rarely shaded that much;
                                                      > many of them were deliberately in full sun for the sake of the shade
                                                      > they'd make on the house or ground!
                                                      >
                                                      > Ulfhedinn
                                                      >
                                                      > also in the wet side of AnTir
                                                      >
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