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Re: [medievalsawdust] polychrome finish on wood

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  • Gary Halstead
    More likely fish glue or rabbit skin glue - same idea, but probably finer and easier to work with. I m not a painter so I ve never tried using any of them.
    Message 1 of 17 , Jan 14, 2004
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      More likely fish glue or rabbit skin glue - same idea, but probably
      finer and easier to work with. I'm not a painter so I've never tried
      using any of them.

      BTW, it appears that oil paints may have been used in the 13th century,
      there's a reference to tbat effect in Paul Binski's _Medieval Craftsmen:
      Painters_. The same book has an amusing reference to rooms in a
      Westminster inn being painted in red oil paint with gold stencilled
      designs in 1430-31.

      Ranulf

      Bill McNutt wrote:

      > So. . .
      > Thinned hide glue with a coloring agent?
      >
      > Will
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: Gary Halstead [mailto:ghalstead@...]
      > Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2004 5:08 PM
      > To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: Re: [medievalsawdust] polychrome finish on wood
      >
      > "Polychrome" is a fancy word for "colored paint" it's generally used
      > when the object is painted more than one color. The actual medium of
      > the paint could be egg tempera, distemper (glue based paint), or oils
      > (after c. 1450). I haven't seen any evidence for milk paint being used
      > before the mid 19th century.
      >
      > Ranulf
    • C N Schwartz
      I have references, somewhere around here, to milkpaint being used in the 18th Century, and I might have a 17th Century reference. Not quite medieval, but...
      Message 2 of 17 , Jan 14, 2004
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        I have references, somewhere around here, to milkpaint being used in the
        18th Century, and I might have a 17th Century reference. Not quite
        medieval, but...



        -----Original Message-----
        From: Gary Halstead [mailto:ghalstead@...]

        "Polychrome" is a fancy word for "colored paint" it's generally used
        when the object is painted more than one color. The actual medium of
        the paint could be egg tempera, distemper (glue based paint), or oils
        (after c. 1450). I haven't seen any evidence for milk paint being used
        before the mid 19th century.

        Ranulf
      • C N Schwartz
        From a website: Milk paint is the oldest form of paint known: traces have been found in King Tut s tomb and in ancient cave paintings. All-natural milk paint
        Message 3 of 17 , Jan 14, 2004
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          From a website:
           
          "Milk paint is the oldest form of paint known: traces have been found in King Tut's tomb and in ancient cave paintings. All-natural milk paint made from ground limestone was used by early Americans, who found that it was durable and versatile and that it provided excellent coverage and dried quickly. Like the milk paint used hundreds of years ago, most modern milk paint is made of natural ingredients. 
           
           
        • Arthur Slaughter
          Use the rabitskin , the fish glue quite frankly STINKS! I am more familiar with glues being used in some very complex recipes for gesso than for a vehicle for
          Message 4 of 17 , Jan 14, 2004
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            Use the rabitskin , the fish glue quite frankly STINKS!  I am more familiar with glues being used in some very complex recipes for gesso than for a vehicle for paint though,
            Fin
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2004 3:13 PM
            Subject: Re: [medievalsawdust] polychrome finish on wood

            More likely fish glue or rabbit skin glue - same idea, but probably
            finer and easier to work with.  I'm not a painter so I've never tried
            using any of them.

            BTW, it appears that oil paints may have been used in the 13th century,
            there's a reference to tbat effect in Paul Binski's _Medieval Craftsmen:
            Painters_.  The same book has an amusing reference to rooms in a
            Westminster inn being painted in red oil paint with gold stencilled
            designs in 1430-31.

            Ranulf

            Bill McNutt wrote:

            > So. . .
            > Thinned hide glue with a coloring agent?
            >
            > Will
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: Gary Halstead [mailto:ghalstead@...]
            > Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2004 5:08 PM
            > To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: Re: [medievalsawdust] polychrome finish on wood
            >
            > "Polychrome" is a fancy word for "colored paint" it's generally used
            > when the object is painted more than one color.  The actual medium of
            > the paint could be egg tempera, distemper (glue based paint), or oils
            > (after c. 1450).  I haven't seen any evidence for milk paint being used
            > before the mid 19th century.
            >
            > Ranulf



            Yahoo! Groups Links

          • windsingersmoon
            On the general subject of period glue It seems that the major wood glue they used, was made of cheeze In a competition once, a judge had asked me what I
            Message 5 of 17 , Jan 15, 2004
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              On the general subject of period 'glue'
              It seems that the major 'wood' glue they used, was made of 'cheeze'
              In a competition once, a judge had asked me what I knew of period
              glues in regards to woodworking. I told him 'cheeze'
              He asked how it was made. I told him (don't ask me now, that's been
              some many years back and I don't remember enough of the process to
              relate it here, but it's in my files somewhere) Then he asked if I'd
              ever made any ? I confess "no" The recipe called for "Old cheeze"
              and quite frankly I had no desire to intentionally allow perfectly
              good cheeze to get that old, just to make the glue, but if I
              accidently let the process happen, I'd try it then, so as to take
              advantage of the sudden (?) experimental material.
              Shara

              --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, "Arthur Slaughter"
              <fion@c...> wrote:
              > Use the rabitskin , the fish glue quite frankly STINKS! I am more
              familiar with glues being used in some very complex recipes for
              gesso than for a vehicle for paint though,
              > Fin
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: Gary Halstead
              > To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2004 3:13 PM
              > Subject: Re: [medievalsawdust] polychrome finish on wood
              >
              >
            • Bill McNutt
              Actually, I ran across a medieval recipe for cheese glue last night. Will ... From: windsingersmoon [mailto:asa.wood@excite.com] Sent: Thursday, January 15,
              Message 6 of 17 , Jan 15, 2004
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                Actually, I ran across a medieval recipe for "cheese glue" last night.

                Will

                -----Original Message-----
                From: windsingersmoon [mailto:asa.wood@...]
                Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2004 4:05 PM
                To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [medievalsawdust] Re: polychrome finish on wood

                On the general subject of period 'glue'
                It seems that the major 'wood' glue they used, was made of 'cheeze'
                In a competition once, a judge had asked me what I knew of period
                glues in regards to woodworking. I told him 'cheeze'
                He asked how it was made. I told him (don't ask me now, that's been
                some many years back and I don't remember enough of the process to
                relate it here, but it's in my files somewhere) Then he asked if I'd
                ever made any ? I confess "no" The recipe called for "Old cheeze"
                and quite frankly I had no desire to intentionally allow perfectly
                good cheeze to get that old, just to make the glue, but if I
                accidently let the process happen, I'd try it then, so as to take
                advantage of the sudden (?) experimental material.
                Shara

                --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, "Arthur Slaughter"
                <fion@c...> wrote:
                > Use the rabitskin , the fish glue quite frankly STINKS! I am more
                familiar with glues being used in some very complex recipes for
                gesso than for a vehicle for paint though,
                > Fin
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: Gary Halstead
                > To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2004 3:13 PM
                > Subject: Re: [medievalsawdust] polychrome finish on wood
                >
                >





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              • Mark Flebotte
                Where? It sounds interesting... an idea for what to use the dried out bits of cheese log for. Mark ... From: Bill McNutt To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                Message 7 of 17 , Jan 15, 2004
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                  Where? It sounds interesting... an idea for what to use the dried out bits of cheese log for.
                   
                  Mark
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2004 3:29 PM
                  Subject: RE: [medievalsawdust] Re: polychrome finish on wood

                  Actually, I ran across a medieval recipe for "cheese glue" last night.

                  Will

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: windsingersmoon [mailto:asa.wood@...]
                  Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2004 4:05 PM
                  To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [medievalsawdust] Re: polychrome finish on wood

                  On the general subject of period 'glue'
                  It seems that the major 'wood' glue they used, was made of 'cheeze'
                  In a competition once, a judge had asked me what I knew of period
                  glues in regards to woodworking.   I told him 'cheeze'
                  He asked how it was made.  I told him (don't ask me now, that's been
                  some many years back and I don't remember enough of the process to
                  relate it here, but it's in my files somewhere) Then he asked if I'd
                  ever made any ?  I confess "no"  The recipe called for "Old cheeze"
                  and quite frankly I had no desire to intentionally allow perfectly
                  good cheeze to get that old, just to make the glue, but if I
                  accidently let the process happen, I'd try it then, so as to take
                  advantage of the sudden (?) experimental material.
                  Shara

                  --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, "Arthur Slaughter"
                  <fion@c...> wrote:
                  > Use the rabitskin , the fish glue quite frankly STINKS!  I am more
                  familiar with glues being used in some very complex recipes for
                  gesso than for a vehicle for paint though,
                  > Fin
                  >   ----- Original Message -----
                  >   From: Gary Halstead
                  >   To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                  >   Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2004 3:13 PM
                  >   Subject: Re: [medievalsawdust] polychrome finish on wood
                  >






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                • Bill McNutt
                  _Ancient Carpenters’ Tools_, Henry C. Mercer, P 311. A secondary source, of course, but he says: “The monk Theophilus, writing (c. 1100 AD) in his handbook
                  Message 8 of 17 , Jan 15, 2004
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                    _Ancient Carpenters’ Tools_, Henry C. Mercer, P 311.

                     

                    A secondary source, of course, but he says:

                     

                    “The monk Theophilus, writing (c. 1100 AD) in his handbook on the crafts associated with church buildings, give the receipt [sic] for chesse glue – ‘Soft cheese is cut very small and washed with warm water in a a small mortar with a pestle until, being frequently poured in, the water comes away pure.  Then this cheese, compressed by hand, is put into cold water until it hardens.  After this it is very finely ground, with another piece of wood, upon a smooth wooden table, and in this state it is again placed in the mortar, and is carefully ground with the pestle, water mixed with quicklime being added, until it is made as thick as lees.

                     

                    The tablets of altars fastened together with this gule, after they are dry, so adhere together, that neither heat nor humidity are able to disjoin them.’”

                     

                    He also cites Cennino Cennini in “an artists workship manual in the 14th century,  but does not name it.  He also says that there is a mention of cheese glue in another work called the Lucca MS, but he does not quote it.

                     

                    Will

                     

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Mark Flebotte [mailto:maf@...]
                    Sent:
                    Thursday, January 15, 2004 5:58 PM
                    To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [medievalsawdust] Re: polychrome finish on wood

                     

                    Where? It sounds interesting... an idea for what to use the dried out bits of cheese log for.

                     

                    Mark

                    ----- Original Message -----

                    Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2004 3:29 PM

                    Subject: RE: [medievalsawdust] Re: polychrome finish on wood

                     

                    Actually, I ran across a medieval recipe for "cheese glue" last night.

                    Will

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: windsingersmoon [mailto:asa.wood@...]
                    Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2004 4:05 PM
                    To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [medievalsawdust] Re: polychrome finish on wood

                    On the general subject of period 'glue'
                    It seems that the major 'wood' glue they used, was made of 'cheeze'
                    In a competition once, a judge had asked me what I knew of period
                    glues in regards to woodworking.   I told him 'cheeze'
                    He asked how it was made.  I told him (don't ask me now, that's been
                    some many years back and I don't remember enough of the process to
                    relate it here, but it's in my files somewhere) Then he asked if I'd
                    ever made any ?  I confess "no"  The recipe called for "Old cheeze"
                    and quite frankly I had no desire to intentionally allow perfectly
                    good cheeze to get that old, just to make the glue, but if I
                    accidently let the process happen, I'd try it then, so as to take
                    advantage of the sudden (?) experimental material.
                    Shara

                    --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, "Arthur Slaughter"
                    <fion@c...> wrote:
                    > Use the rabitskin , the fish glue quite frankly STINKS!  I am more
                    familiar with glues being used in some very complex recipes for
                    gesso than for a vehicle for paint though,
                    > Fin
                    >   ----- Original Message -----
                    >   From: Gary Halstead
                    >   To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                    >   Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2004 3:13 PM
                    >   Subject: Re: [medievalsawdust] polychrome finish on wood
                    >






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                    To visit your group on the web, go to:
                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/medievalsawdust/

                    To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    medievalsawdust-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                    Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
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                    medievalsawdust-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                     

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                    ·        To visit your group on the web, go to:
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                  • Tom Rettie
                    ... Both of these are still in print through Dover: On Divers Arts Theophilus Translated and Notes by John G. Hawthorne and Cyril Stanley Smith Dover
                    Message 9 of 17 , Jan 15, 2004
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                      > The monk Theophilus, writing (c. 1100 AD) in his handbook on the
                      > crafts associated with church buildings, give the receipt [sic] for
                      > chesse glue 

                      Both of these are still in print through Dover:

                      "On Divers Arts"
                      Theophilus
                      Translated and Notes by John G. Hawthorne and Cyril Stanley Smith
                      Dover Publications
                      New York, 1979
                      ISBN 0-486-23784-2

                      animal glue: pg. 27, 32
                      cheese glue: pg. 26, 163, 164
                      fish glue: 36, 37, 187

                      Also receipes for varnish, oils, pigments, etc.

                      > He also cites Cennino Cennini in an artists workship manual in the
                      > 14th century, but does not name it. He also says that there is a
                      > mention of cheese glue in another work called the Lucca MS, but he
                      > does not quote it.

                      "The Craftsman's Handbook (Il Libro dell'Arte)"
                      Cennino d'Andrea Cennini
                      Translated by Daniel V. Thompson Jr.
                      Dover Publications
                      New York, 1960
                      ISBN 0-486-20054-X

                      cheese and lime glue: pg. 68
                      fish glue: 10, 14
                      goat glue: 67

                      And many other recipes.

                      Tom R.

                      ------------------------------------------------
                      Tom Rettie tom@...
                      http://www.his.com/~tom/index.html
                    • kjworz@comcast.net
                      Ahhhhhhm quicklime... Is there nothing you can t fix? -- -Chris Schwartz, Ex-Brewer Silver Spring, MD
                      Message 10 of 17 , Jan 16, 2004
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                        Ahhhhhhm quicklime... Is there nothing you can't fix?


                        --
                        -Chris Schwartz,
                        Ex-Brewer
                        Silver Spring, MD
                      • windsingersmoon
                        Yep, that s one (two) of my books. Shara ... crafts ... chesse glue ... small ... comes ... water ... another ... again ... water ... lees. ... are ... the
                        Message 11 of 17 , Jan 16, 2004
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                          Yep, that's one (two) of my books.
                          Shara

                          --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, "Bill McNutt" <mcnutt@p...>
                          wrote:
                          > _Ancient Carpenters' Tools_, Henry C. Mercer, P 311.
                          >
                          > A secondary source, of course, but he says:
                          >
                          > "The monk Theophilus, writing (c. 1100 AD) in his handbook on the
                          crafts
                          > associated with church buildings, give the receipt [sic] for
                          chesse glue
                          > – `Soft cheese is cut very small and washed with warm water in a a
                          small
                          > mortar with a pestle until, being frequently poured in, the water
                          comes
                          > away pure. Then this cheese, compressed by hand, is put into cold
                          water
                          > until it hardens. After this it is very finely ground, with
                          another
                          > piece of wood, upon a smooth wooden table, and in this state it is
                          again
                          > placed in the mortar, and is carefully ground with the pestle,
                          water
                          > mixed with quicklime being added, until it is made as thick as
                          lees.
                          >
                          > The tablets of altars fastened together with this gule, after they
                          are
                          > dry, so adhere together, that neither heat nor humidity are able to
                          > disjoin them.'"
                          >
                          > He also cites Cennino Cennini in "an artists workship manual in
                          the 14th
                          > century, but does not name it. He also says that there is a
                          mention of
                          > cheese glue in another work called the Lucca MS, but he does not
                          quote
                          > it.
                          >
                          > Will
                          >
                          > -----Original Message-----
                          > From: Mark Flebotte [mailto:maf@t...]
                          > Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2004 5:58 PM
                          > To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                          > Subject: Re: [medievalsawdust] Re: polychrome finish on wood
                          >
                          > Where? It sounds interesting... an idea for what to use the dried
                          out
                          > bits of cheese log for.
                          >
                          > Mark
                          >
                        • windsingersmoon
                          Woops,...3/Three of my books. S. ... for ... the ... a ... he
                          Message 12 of 17 , Jan 16, 2004
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                            Woops,...3/Three of my books.
                            S.


                            --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, Tom Rettie <tom@h...> wrote:
                            > > The monk Theophilus, writing (c. 1100 AD) in his handbook on the
                            > > crafts associated with church buildings, give the receipt [sic]
                            for
                            > > chesse glue 
                            >
                            > Both of these are still in print through Dover:
                            >
                            > "On Divers Arts"
                            > Theophilus
                            > Translated and Notes by John G. Hawthorne and Cyril Stanley Smith
                            > Dover Publications
                            > New York, 1979
                            > ISBN 0-486-23784-2
                            >
                            > animal glue: pg. 27, 32
                            > cheese glue: pg. 26, 163, 164
                            > fish glue: 36, 37, 187
                            >
                            > Also receipes for varnish, oils, pigments, etc.
                            >
                            > > He also cites Cennino Cennini in an artists workship manual in
                            the
                            > > 14th century, but does not name it. He also says that there is
                            a
                            > > mention of cheese glue in another work called the Lucca MS, but
                            he
                            > > does not quote it.
                            >
                            > "The Craftsman's Handbook (Il Libro dell'Arte)"
                            > Cennino d'Andrea Cennini
                            > Translated by Daniel V. Thompson Jr.
                            > Dover Publications
                            > New York, 1960
                            > ISBN 0-486-20054-X
                            >
                            > cheese and lime glue: pg. 68
                            > fish glue: 10, 14
                            > goat glue: 67
                            >
                            > And many other recipes.
                            >
                            > Tom R.
                            >
                            > ------------------------------------------------
                            > Tom Rettie tom@h...
                            > http://www.his.com/~tom/index.html
                          • windsingersmoon
                            I just got a new Museum catalog. Casually going through it, I noted one stone (period) sculpture, that the caption with it stated something like This statue
                            Message 13 of 17 , Jan 24, 2004
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                              I just got a new Museum catalog.
                              Casually going through it, I noted one stone (period) sculpture,
                              that the caption with it stated something like "This statue was
                              originally polychromed, although it doesn't appear to be today,
                              remnants of paint can still be found on it'
                              S.
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