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Re: [medievalsawdust] polychrome finish on wood

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  • Tom Rettie
    ... I haven t found specific evidence for milk paint either, but if you re going to purchase your own paint rather than make it, I think it s a useful option.
    Message 1 of 17 , Jan 14, 2004
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      >"Polychrome" is a fancy word for "colored paint" it's generally used
      >when the object is painted more than one color. The actual medium of
      >the paint could be egg tempera, distemper (glue based paint), or oils
      >(after c. 1450). I haven't seen any evidence for milk paint being used
      >before the mid 19th century.

      I haven't found specific evidence for milk paint either, but if you're
      going to purchase your own paint rather than make it, I think it's a useful
      option. Modern commercial milk paints tend to use natural earth pigments,
      and the pigments tend to be somewhat coarsely ground, both attributes of
      some surviving period paints. Commercial oil paints strive to be smooth
      with homogeneous color, which isn't always the effect I'm going for with
      period furniture.

      Regards,

      Tom R.

      ------------------------------------------------
      Tom Rettie tom@...
      http://www.his.com/~tom/index.html
    • Gary Halstead
      More likely fish glue or rabbit skin glue - same idea, but probably finer and easier to work with. I m not a painter so I ve never tried using any of them.
      Message 2 of 17 , Jan 14, 2004
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        More likely fish glue or rabbit skin glue - same idea, but probably
        finer and easier to work with. I'm not a painter so I've never tried
        using any of them.

        BTW, it appears that oil paints may have been used in the 13th century,
        there's a reference to tbat effect in Paul Binski's _Medieval Craftsmen:
        Painters_. The same book has an amusing reference to rooms in a
        Westminster inn being painted in red oil paint with gold stencilled
        designs in 1430-31.

        Ranulf

        Bill McNutt wrote:

        > So. . .
        > Thinned hide glue with a coloring agent?
        >
        > Will
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: Gary Halstead [mailto:ghalstead@...]
        > Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2004 5:08 PM
        > To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: Re: [medievalsawdust] polychrome finish on wood
        >
        > "Polychrome" is a fancy word for "colored paint" it's generally used
        > when the object is painted more than one color. The actual medium of
        > the paint could be egg tempera, distemper (glue based paint), or oils
        > (after c. 1450). I haven't seen any evidence for milk paint being used
        > before the mid 19th century.
        >
        > Ranulf
      • C N Schwartz
        I have references, somewhere around here, to milkpaint being used in the 18th Century, and I might have a 17th Century reference. Not quite medieval, but...
        Message 3 of 17 , Jan 14, 2004
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          I have references, somewhere around here, to milkpaint being used in the
          18th Century, and I might have a 17th Century reference. Not quite
          medieval, but...



          -----Original Message-----
          From: Gary Halstead [mailto:ghalstead@...]

          "Polychrome" is a fancy word for "colored paint" it's generally used
          when the object is painted more than one color. The actual medium of
          the paint could be egg tempera, distemper (glue based paint), or oils
          (after c. 1450). I haven't seen any evidence for milk paint being used
          before the mid 19th century.

          Ranulf
        • C N Schwartz
          From a website: Milk paint is the oldest form of paint known: traces have been found in King Tut s tomb and in ancient cave paintings. All-natural milk paint
          Message 4 of 17 , Jan 14, 2004
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            From a website:
             
            "Milk paint is the oldest form of paint known: traces have been found in King Tut's tomb and in ancient cave paintings. All-natural milk paint made from ground limestone was used by early Americans, who found that it was durable and versatile and that it provided excellent coverage and dried quickly. Like the milk paint used hundreds of years ago, most modern milk paint is made of natural ingredients. 
             
             
          • Arthur Slaughter
            Use the rabitskin , the fish glue quite frankly STINKS! I am more familiar with glues being used in some very complex recipes for gesso than for a vehicle for
            Message 5 of 17 , Jan 14, 2004
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              Use the rabitskin , the fish glue quite frankly STINKS!  I am more familiar with glues being used in some very complex recipes for gesso than for a vehicle for paint though,
              Fin
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2004 3:13 PM
              Subject: Re: [medievalsawdust] polychrome finish on wood

              More likely fish glue or rabbit skin glue - same idea, but probably
              finer and easier to work with.  I'm not a painter so I've never tried
              using any of them.

              BTW, it appears that oil paints may have been used in the 13th century,
              there's a reference to tbat effect in Paul Binski's _Medieval Craftsmen:
              Painters_.  The same book has an amusing reference to rooms in a
              Westminster inn being painted in red oil paint with gold stencilled
              designs in 1430-31.

              Ranulf

              Bill McNutt wrote:

              > So. . .
              > Thinned hide glue with a coloring agent?
              >
              > Will
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: Gary Halstead [mailto:ghalstead@...]
              > Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2004 5:08 PM
              > To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: Re: [medievalsawdust] polychrome finish on wood
              >
              > "Polychrome" is a fancy word for "colored paint" it's generally used
              > when the object is painted more than one color.  The actual medium of
              > the paint could be egg tempera, distemper (glue based paint), or oils
              > (after c. 1450).  I haven't seen any evidence for milk paint being used
              > before the mid 19th century.
              >
              > Ranulf



              Yahoo! Groups Links

            • windsingersmoon
              On the general subject of period glue It seems that the major wood glue they used, was made of cheeze In a competition once, a judge had asked me what I
              Message 6 of 17 , Jan 15, 2004
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                On the general subject of period 'glue'
                It seems that the major 'wood' glue they used, was made of 'cheeze'
                In a competition once, a judge had asked me what I knew of period
                glues in regards to woodworking. I told him 'cheeze'
                He asked how it was made. I told him (don't ask me now, that's been
                some many years back and I don't remember enough of the process to
                relate it here, but it's in my files somewhere) Then he asked if I'd
                ever made any ? I confess "no" The recipe called for "Old cheeze"
                and quite frankly I had no desire to intentionally allow perfectly
                good cheeze to get that old, just to make the glue, but if I
                accidently let the process happen, I'd try it then, so as to take
                advantage of the sudden (?) experimental material.
                Shara

                --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, "Arthur Slaughter"
                <fion@c...> wrote:
                > Use the rabitskin , the fish glue quite frankly STINKS! I am more
                familiar with glues being used in some very complex recipes for
                gesso than for a vehicle for paint though,
                > Fin
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: Gary Halstead
                > To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2004 3:13 PM
                > Subject: Re: [medievalsawdust] polychrome finish on wood
                >
                >
              • Bill McNutt
                Actually, I ran across a medieval recipe for cheese glue last night. Will ... From: windsingersmoon [mailto:asa.wood@excite.com] Sent: Thursday, January 15,
                Message 7 of 17 , Jan 15, 2004
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                  Actually, I ran across a medieval recipe for "cheese glue" last night.

                  Will

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: windsingersmoon [mailto:asa.wood@...]
                  Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2004 4:05 PM
                  To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [medievalsawdust] Re: polychrome finish on wood

                  On the general subject of period 'glue'
                  It seems that the major 'wood' glue they used, was made of 'cheeze'
                  In a competition once, a judge had asked me what I knew of period
                  glues in regards to woodworking. I told him 'cheeze'
                  He asked how it was made. I told him (don't ask me now, that's been
                  some many years back and I don't remember enough of the process to
                  relate it here, but it's in my files somewhere) Then he asked if I'd
                  ever made any ? I confess "no" The recipe called for "Old cheeze"
                  and quite frankly I had no desire to intentionally allow perfectly
                  good cheeze to get that old, just to make the glue, but if I
                  accidently let the process happen, I'd try it then, so as to take
                  advantage of the sudden (?) experimental material.
                  Shara

                  --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, "Arthur Slaughter"
                  <fion@c...> wrote:
                  > Use the rabitskin , the fish glue quite frankly STINKS! I am more
                  familiar with glues being used in some very complex recipes for
                  gesso than for a vehicle for paint though,
                  > Fin
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: Gary Halstead
                  > To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                  > Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2004 3:13 PM
                  > Subject: Re: [medievalsawdust] polychrome finish on wood
                  >
                  >





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                • Mark Flebotte
                  Where? It sounds interesting... an idea for what to use the dried out bits of cheese log for. Mark ... From: Bill McNutt To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                  Message 8 of 17 , Jan 15, 2004
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                    Where? It sounds interesting... an idea for what to use the dried out bits of cheese log for.
                     
                    Mark
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2004 3:29 PM
                    Subject: RE: [medievalsawdust] Re: polychrome finish on wood

                    Actually, I ran across a medieval recipe for "cheese glue" last night.

                    Will

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: windsingersmoon [mailto:asa.wood@...]
                    Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2004 4:05 PM
                    To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [medievalsawdust] Re: polychrome finish on wood

                    On the general subject of period 'glue'
                    It seems that the major 'wood' glue they used, was made of 'cheeze'
                    In a competition once, a judge had asked me what I knew of period
                    glues in regards to woodworking.   I told him 'cheeze'
                    He asked how it was made.  I told him (don't ask me now, that's been
                    some many years back and I don't remember enough of the process to
                    relate it here, but it's in my files somewhere) Then he asked if I'd
                    ever made any ?  I confess "no"  The recipe called for "Old cheeze"
                    and quite frankly I had no desire to intentionally allow perfectly
                    good cheeze to get that old, just to make the glue, but if I
                    accidently let the process happen, I'd try it then, so as to take
                    advantage of the sudden (?) experimental material.
                    Shara

                    --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, "Arthur Slaughter"
                    <fion@c...> wrote:
                    > Use the rabitskin , the fish glue quite frankly STINKS!  I am more
                    familiar with glues being used in some very complex recipes for
                    gesso than for a vehicle for paint though,
                    > Fin
                    >   ----- Original Message -----
                    >   From: Gary Halstead
                    >   To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                    >   Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2004 3:13 PM
                    >   Subject: Re: [medievalsawdust] polychrome finish on wood
                    >






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                  • Bill McNutt
                    _Ancient Carpenters’ Tools_, Henry C. Mercer, P 311. A secondary source, of course, but he says: “The monk Theophilus, writing (c. 1100 AD) in his handbook
                    Message 9 of 17 , Jan 15, 2004
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                      _Ancient Carpenters’ Tools_, Henry C. Mercer, P 311.

                       

                      A secondary source, of course, but he says:

                       

                      “The monk Theophilus, writing (c. 1100 AD) in his handbook on the crafts associated with church buildings, give the receipt [sic] for chesse glue – ‘Soft cheese is cut very small and washed with warm water in a a small mortar with a pestle until, being frequently poured in, the water comes away pure.  Then this cheese, compressed by hand, is put into cold water until it hardens.  After this it is very finely ground, with another piece of wood, upon a smooth wooden table, and in this state it is again placed in the mortar, and is carefully ground with the pestle, water mixed with quicklime being added, until it is made as thick as lees.

                       

                      The tablets of altars fastened together with this gule, after they are dry, so adhere together, that neither heat nor humidity are able to disjoin them.’”

                       

                      He also cites Cennino Cennini in “an artists workship manual in the 14th century,  but does not name it.  He also says that there is a mention of cheese glue in another work called the Lucca MS, but he does not quote it.

                       

                      Will

                       

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: Mark Flebotte [mailto:maf@...]
                      Sent:
                      Thursday, January 15, 2004 5:58 PM
                      To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [medievalsawdust] Re: polychrome finish on wood

                       

                      Where? It sounds interesting... an idea for what to use the dried out bits of cheese log for.

                       

                      Mark

                      ----- Original Message -----

                      Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2004 3:29 PM

                      Subject: RE: [medievalsawdust] Re: polychrome finish on wood

                       

                      Actually, I ran across a medieval recipe for "cheese glue" last night.

                      Will

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: windsingersmoon [mailto:asa.wood@...]
                      Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2004 4:05 PM
                      To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [medievalsawdust] Re: polychrome finish on wood

                      On the general subject of period 'glue'
                      It seems that the major 'wood' glue they used, was made of 'cheeze'
                      In a competition once, a judge had asked me what I knew of period
                      glues in regards to woodworking.   I told him 'cheeze'
                      He asked how it was made.  I told him (don't ask me now, that's been
                      some many years back and I don't remember enough of the process to
                      relate it here, but it's in my files somewhere) Then he asked if I'd
                      ever made any ?  I confess "no"  The recipe called for "Old cheeze"
                      and quite frankly I had no desire to intentionally allow perfectly
                      good cheeze to get that old, just to make the glue, but if I
                      accidently let the process happen, I'd try it then, so as to take
                      advantage of the sudden (?) experimental material.
                      Shara

                      --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, "Arthur Slaughter"
                      <fion@c...> wrote:
                      > Use the rabitskin , the fish glue quite frankly STINKS!  I am more
                      familiar with glues being used in some very complex recipes for
                      gesso than for a vehicle for paint though,
                      > Fin
                      >   ----- Original Message -----
                      >   From: Gary Halstead
                      >   To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                      >   Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2004 3:13 PM
                      >   Subject: Re: [medievalsawdust] polychrome finish on wood
                      >






                      Yahoo! Groups Links

                      To visit your group on the web, go to:
                      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/medievalsawdust/

                      To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      medievalsawdust-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                      Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                      http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/




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                      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/medievalsawdust/
                       

                      ·    To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      medievalsawdust-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                       

                      ·    Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

                       

                       


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                      ·        To visit your group on the web, go to:
                      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/medievalsawdust/
                       

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                      ·        Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

                    • Tom Rettie
                      ... Both of these are still in print through Dover: On Divers Arts Theophilus Translated and Notes by John G. Hawthorne and Cyril Stanley Smith Dover
                      Message 10 of 17 , Jan 15, 2004
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                        > The monk Theophilus, writing (c. 1100 AD) in his handbook on the
                        > crafts associated with church buildings, give the receipt [sic] for
                        > chesse glue 

                        Both of these are still in print through Dover:

                        "On Divers Arts"
                        Theophilus
                        Translated and Notes by John G. Hawthorne and Cyril Stanley Smith
                        Dover Publications
                        New York, 1979
                        ISBN 0-486-23784-2

                        animal glue: pg. 27, 32
                        cheese glue: pg. 26, 163, 164
                        fish glue: 36, 37, 187

                        Also receipes for varnish, oils, pigments, etc.

                        > He also cites Cennino Cennini in an artists workship manual in the
                        > 14th century, but does not name it. He also says that there is a
                        > mention of cheese glue in another work called the Lucca MS, but he
                        > does not quote it.

                        "The Craftsman's Handbook (Il Libro dell'Arte)"
                        Cennino d'Andrea Cennini
                        Translated by Daniel V. Thompson Jr.
                        Dover Publications
                        New York, 1960
                        ISBN 0-486-20054-X

                        cheese and lime glue: pg. 68
                        fish glue: 10, 14
                        goat glue: 67

                        And many other recipes.

                        Tom R.

                        ------------------------------------------------
                        Tom Rettie tom@...
                        http://www.his.com/~tom/index.html
                      • kjworz@comcast.net
                        Ahhhhhhm quicklime... Is there nothing you can t fix? -- -Chris Schwartz, Ex-Brewer Silver Spring, MD
                        Message 11 of 17 , Jan 16, 2004
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                          Ahhhhhhm quicklime... Is there nothing you can't fix?


                          --
                          -Chris Schwartz,
                          Ex-Brewer
                          Silver Spring, MD
                        • windsingersmoon
                          Yep, that s one (two) of my books. Shara ... crafts ... chesse glue ... small ... comes ... water ... another ... again ... water ... lees. ... are ... the
                          Message 12 of 17 , Jan 16, 2004
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                            Yep, that's one (two) of my books.
                            Shara

                            --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, "Bill McNutt" <mcnutt@p...>
                            wrote:
                            > _Ancient Carpenters' Tools_, Henry C. Mercer, P 311.
                            >
                            > A secondary source, of course, but he says:
                            >
                            > "The monk Theophilus, writing (c. 1100 AD) in his handbook on the
                            crafts
                            > associated with church buildings, give the receipt [sic] for
                            chesse glue
                            > – `Soft cheese is cut very small and washed with warm water in a a
                            small
                            > mortar with a pestle until, being frequently poured in, the water
                            comes
                            > away pure. Then this cheese, compressed by hand, is put into cold
                            water
                            > until it hardens. After this it is very finely ground, with
                            another
                            > piece of wood, upon a smooth wooden table, and in this state it is
                            again
                            > placed in the mortar, and is carefully ground with the pestle,
                            water
                            > mixed with quicklime being added, until it is made as thick as
                            lees.
                            >
                            > The tablets of altars fastened together with this gule, after they
                            are
                            > dry, so adhere together, that neither heat nor humidity are able to
                            > disjoin them.'"
                            >
                            > He also cites Cennino Cennini in "an artists workship manual in
                            the 14th
                            > century, but does not name it. He also says that there is a
                            mention of
                            > cheese glue in another work called the Lucca MS, but he does not
                            quote
                            > it.
                            >
                            > Will
                            >
                            > -----Original Message-----
                            > From: Mark Flebotte [mailto:maf@t...]
                            > Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2004 5:58 PM
                            > To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                            > Subject: Re: [medievalsawdust] Re: polychrome finish on wood
                            >
                            > Where? It sounds interesting... an idea for what to use the dried
                            out
                            > bits of cheese log for.
                            >
                            > Mark
                            >
                          • windsingersmoon
                            Woops,...3/Three of my books. S. ... for ... the ... a ... he
                            Message 13 of 17 , Jan 16, 2004
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                              Woops,...3/Three of my books.
                              S.


                              --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, Tom Rettie <tom@h...> wrote:
                              > > The monk Theophilus, writing (c. 1100 AD) in his handbook on the
                              > > crafts associated with church buildings, give the receipt [sic]
                              for
                              > > chesse glue 
                              >
                              > Both of these are still in print through Dover:
                              >
                              > "On Divers Arts"
                              > Theophilus
                              > Translated and Notes by John G. Hawthorne and Cyril Stanley Smith
                              > Dover Publications
                              > New York, 1979
                              > ISBN 0-486-23784-2
                              >
                              > animal glue: pg. 27, 32
                              > cheese glue: pg. 26, 163, 164
                              > fish glue: 36, 37, 187
                              >
                              > Also receipes for varnish, oils, pigments, etc.
                              >
                              > > He also cites Cennino Cennini in an artists workship manual in
                              the
                              > > 14th century, but does not name it. He also says that there is
                              a
                              > > mention of cheese glue in another work called the Lucca MS, but
                              he
                              > > does not quote it.
                              >
                              > "The Craftsman's Handbook (Il Libro dell'Arte)"
                              > Cennino d'Andrea Cennini
                              > Translated by Daniel V. Thompson Jr.
                              > Dover Publications
                              > New York, 1960
                              > ISBN 0-486-20054-X
                              >
                              > cheese and lime glue: pg. 68
                              > fish glue: 10, 14
                              > goat glue: 67
                              >
                              > And many other recipes.
                              >
                              > Tom R.
                              >
                              > ------------------------------------------------
                              > Tom Rettie tom@h...
                              > http://www.his.com/~tom/index.html
                            • windsingersmoon
                              I just got a new Museum catalog. Casually going through it, I noted one stone (period) sculpture, that the caption with it stated something like This statue
                              Message 14 of 17 , Jan 24, 2004
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                                I just got a new Museum catalog.
                                Casually going through it, I noted one stone (period) sculpture,
                                that the caption with it stated something like "This statue was
                                originally polychromed, although it doesn't appear to be today,
                                remnants of paint can still be found on it'
                                S.
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