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Renaissance crossbow tiller decoration

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  • kiltie_celt
    I m in the process of constructing this bow: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v483/MCampbell/HuntingxbowGerman1590-2.jpg It s a German hunting bow from 1590,
    Message 1 of 29 , Dec 6, 2010
      I'm in the process of constructing this bow:

      http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v483/MCampbell/HuntingxbowGerman1590-2.jpg

      It's a German hunting bow from 1590, on display at the Victoria and Albert Museum in the UK. While I'm not trying to duplicate it exactly, I am hoping to achieve something extremely close to the look of the original. Very shortly, I will be at the point of adding the textural details to the tiller as well as the ivory overlays. I ordered a digital high-resolution download of the original images and found that the checkered pattern on the sides of the tiller is in fact small leaves.

      http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v483/MCampbell/German1590bowdetailcrop.jpg

      Now, my question is, was each of these little leaves hand carved, or did the maker create a metal stamp and simply stamp the leaf pattern on the sides of the tiller. It's obviously a LOT of carving if that's the case and the engraved details on the ivory were most certainly done by hand so it's not inconceivable that the leaves on the tiller were all hand carved. Getting a truly up close and in-person view would surely indicate whether the leaves show signs of compressed wood fibers around the edges that would be the result of using a stamp. However, not being able to look at the original this photo is the best I'm going to get, so it's all speculation at this point. Any ideas, suggestions, thoughts? I'm not even sure how easy it would be to make a stamp, but my first inclination along those lines was to use my dremel to sculpt one from the end of a very large 60d size nail.
    • Siegfried
      From looking at that picture, and from all the similar-ish crossbows that I ve seen. I d guess that they are carved individually ... Most crossbow stocks are
      Message 2 of 29 , Dec 6, 2010
        From looking at that picture, and from all the similar-ish crossbows
        that I've seen.

        I'd guess that they are carved individually ... Most crossbow stocks are
        made from rather TOUGH hardwood, such as brown oak, cherry, pear, etc
        ... Making stamping quite difficult.

        Plus looking at that detail, I can see variations in each leaf where
        they are not the same.

        And very very detailed carvings are very common on some of these late
        period crossbows that were as much (more) display pieces than actually used.

        Siegfried


        On 12/6/10 6:52 PM, kiltie_celt wrote:
        > I'm in the process of constructing this bow:
        >
        > http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v483/MCampbell/HuntingxbowGerman1590-2.jpg
        >
        > It's a German hunting bow from 1590, on display at the Victoria and Albert Museum in the UK. While I'm not trying to duplicate it exactly, I am hoping to achieve something extremely close to the look of the original. Very shortly, I will be at the point of adding the textural details to the tiller as well as the ivory overlays. I ordered a digital high-resolution download of the original images and found that the checkered pattern on the sides of the tiller is in fact small leaves.
        >
        > http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v483/MCampbell/German1590bowdetailcrop.jpg
        >
        > Now, my question is, was each of these little leaves hand carved, or did the maker create a metal stamp and simply stamp the leaf pattern on the sides of the tiller. It's obviously a LOT of carving if that's the case and the engraved details on the ivory were most certainly done by hand so it's not inconceivable that the leaves on the tiller were all hand carved. Getting a truly up close and in-person view would surely indicate whether the leaves show signs of compressed wood fibers around the edges that would be the result of using a stamp. However, not being able to look at the original this photo is the best I'm going to get, so it's all speculation at this point. Any ideas, suggestions, thoughts? I'm not even sure how easy it would be to make a stamp, but my first inclination along those lines was to use my dremel to sculpt one from the end of a very large 60d size nail.
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        >
        >

        --
        Barun Siegfried Sebastian Faust - Barony of Highland Foorde - Atlantia
        http://hf.atlantia.sca.org/ - http://crossbows.biz/ - http://eliw.com/
      • Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart
        I d bet they were hand carved not stamped. Remember they didn t have quite the same must save time where possible attitude that is a major factor in Modern
        Message 3 of 29 , Dec 6, 2010
          I'd bet they were hand carved not stamped.

          Remember they didn't have quite the same "must save time where possible attitude that is a 
          major factor in Modern man's life. 

          I do not have specific research to back it up but I have been told ( and can see the possible truth
          in it ) that we need to think outside our box and try to look at the world of the medieval craftsman
          when we are trying to decide how and why things were made they way they were. Labor was MUCH
          cheaper to medieval man. Factor that into your analysis..... Hand carving each leaf one at a time not so
          much of a big deal....


          that said.......

          A stamp MIGHT have been made to mark the stock consistently.... then hand carved to bring the 
          details into higher relief. 
           
          Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart

          Aude Aliquid Dignum
          ' Dare Something Worthy '



          From: kiltie_celt <matthew-campbell@...>
          To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Mon, December 6, 2010 6:52:01 PM
          Subject: [MedievalSawdust] Renaissance crossbow tiller decoration

           

          I'm in the process of constructing this bow:

          http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v483/MCampbell/HuntingxbowGerman1590-2.jpg

          It's a German hunting bow from 1590, on display at the Victoria and Albert Museum in the UK. While I'm not trying to duplicate it exactly, I am hoping to achieve something extremely close to the look of the original. Very shortly, I will be at the point of adding the textural details to the tiller as well as the ivory overlays. I ordered a digital high-resolution download of the original images and found that the checkered pattern on the sides of the tiller is in fact small leaves.

          http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v483/MCampbell/German1590bowdetailcrop.jpg

          Now, my question is, was each of these little leaves hand carved, or did the maker create a metal stamp and simply stamp the leaf pattern on the sides of the tiller. It's obviously a LOT of carving if that's the case and the engraved details on the ivory were most certainly done by hand so it's not inconceivable that the leaves on the tiller were all hand carved. Getting a truly up close and in-person view would surely indicate whether the leaves show signs of compressed wood fibers around the edges that would be the result of using a stamp. However, not being able to look at the original this photo is the best I'm going to get, so it's all speculation at this point. Any ideas, suggestions, thoughts? I'm not even sure how easy it would be to make a stamp, but my first inclination along those lines was to use my dremel to sculpt one from the end of a very large 60d size nail.


        • Megan Shogren
          I m wondering about that. It might just be the angle of the picture, but the layout lines of the pattern look curved to me. Which would create motifs of
          Message 4 of 29 , Dec 6, 2010
            I'm wondering about that.  It might just be the angle of the picture, but the "layout" lines of the pattern look curved to me.  Which would create motifs of varying sizes and shapes (compare the ones at top toward the right with top center-left, on either side of the swell for the rolling nut).  It also doesn't look like that sophisticated a pattern- once the layout lines were done, it could be a matter of a small V-gouge taking a couple strokes per vein and chiseling the leaf base a little flatter to bring the tips of the flanking leaves into relief.  (Assuming they had V-gouges; a plain ol' knife would do the trick just as well, just a little extra work.)

            -Kat Ferneley


            From: Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart <baronconal@...>
            To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Mon, December 6, 2010 7:10:06 PM
            Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] Renaissance crossbow tiller decoration

             

            I'd bet they were hand carved not stamped.
            <snip>
            that said.......

            A stamp MIGHT have been made to mark the stock consistently.... then hand carved to bring the 
            details into higher relief. 
             
            Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart

          • kiltie_celt
            That was my initial thought too, but upon magnifying the image even more I m inclined to think that it may have been done with a stamp. To me the image of the
            Message 5 of 29 , Dec 6, 2010
              That was my initial thought too, but upon magnifying the image even more I'm inclined to think that it may have been done with a stamp. To me the image of the individual leaves is almost too regular. I can see where each one could be tediously carved, but I can also see how a stamp could've been used as well. I've made the tiller of my bow with walnut which is one of the softer hardwoods so it's possible stamping might work in this case. I'll wait to read some more opinions before I commit one way or the other.

              In service,
              Rhys Cynydd (aka Matt Campbell)

              --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, Siegfried <siegfried@...> wrote:
              >
              > From looking at that picture, and from all the similar-ish crossbows
              > that I've seen.
              >
              > I'd guess that they are carved individually ... Most crossbow stocks are
              > made from rather TOUGH hardwood, such as brown oak, cherry, pear, etc
              > ... Making stamping quite difficult.
              >
              > Plus looking at that detail, I can see variations in each leaf where
              > they are not the same.
              >
              > And very very detailed carvings are very common on some of these late
              > period crossbows that were as much (more) display pieces than actually used.
              >
              > Siegfried
              >
              >
              > On 12/6/10 6:52 PM, kiltie_celt wrote:
              > > I'm in the process of constructing this bow:
              > >
              > > http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v483/MCampbell/HuntingxbowGerman1590-2.jpg
              > >
              > > It's a German hunting bow from 1590, on display at the Victoria and Albert Museum in the UK. While I'm not trying to duplicate it exactly, I am hoping to achieve something extremely close to the look of the original. Very shortly, I will be at the point of adding the textural details to the tiller as well as the ivory overlays. I ordered a digital high-resolution download of the original images and found that the checkered pattern on the sides of the tiller is in fact small leaves.
              > >
              > > http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v483/MCampbell/German1590bowdetailcrop.jpg
              > >
              > > Now, my question is, was each of these little leaves hand carved, or did the maker create a metal stamp and simply stamp the leaf pattern on the sides of the tiller. It's obviously a LOT of carving if that's the case and the engraved details on the ivory were most certainly done by hand so it's not inconceivable that the leaves on the tiller were all hand carved. Getting a truly up close and in-person view would surely indicate whether the leaves show signs of compressed wood fibers around the edges that would be the result of using a stamp. However, not being able to look at the original this photo is the best I'm going to get, so it's all speculation at this point. Any ideas, suggestions, thoughts? I'm not even sure how easy it would be to make a stamp, but my first inclination along those lines was to use my dremel to sculpt one from the end of a very large 60d size nail.
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > ------------------------------------
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              > --
              > Barun Siegfried Sebastian Faust - Barony of Highland Foorde - Atlantia
              > http://hf.atlantia.sca.org/ - http://crossbows.biz/ - http://eliw.com/
              >
            • kiltie_celt
              Sorry, forgot the link to the enlarged photo: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v483/MCampbell/German1590bowdetail.jpg
              Message 6 of 29 , Dec 6, 2010
                Sorry, forgot the link to the enlarged photo:

                http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v483/MCampbell/German1590bowdetail.jpg

                --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, "kiltie_celt" <matthew-campbell@...> wrote:
                >
                > That was my initial thought too, but upon magnifying the image even more I'm inclined to think that it may have been done with a stamp. To me the image of the individual leaves is almost too regular. I can see where each one could be tediously carved, but I can also see how a stamp could've been used as well. I've made the tiller of my bow with walnut which is one of the softer hardwoods so it's possible stamping might work in this case. I'll wait to read some more opinions before I commit one way or the other.
                >
                > In service,
                > Rhys Cynydd (aka Matt Campbell)
                >
                > --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, Siegfried <siegfried@> wrote:
                > >
                > > From looking at that picture, and from all the similar-ish crossbows
                > > that I've seen.
                > >
                > > I'd guess that they are carved individually ... Most crossbow stocks are
                > > made from rather TOUGH hardwood, such as brown oak, cherry, pear, etc
                > > ... Making stamping quite difficult.
                > >
                > > Plus looking at that detail, I can see variations in each leaf where
                > > they are not the same.
                > >
                > > And very very detailed carvings are very common on some of these late
                > > period crossbows that were as much (more) display pieces than actually used.
                > >
                > > Siegfried
                > >
                > >
                > > On 12/6/10 6:52 PM, kiltie_celt wrote:
                > > > I'm in the process of constructing this bow:
                > > >
                > > > http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v483/MCampbell/HuntingxbowGerman1590-2.jpg
                > > >
                > > > It's a German hunting bow from 1590, on display at the Victoria and Albert Museum in the UK. While I'm not trying to duplicate it exactly, I am hoping to achieve something extremely close to the look of the original. Very shortly, I will be at the point of adding the textural details to the tiller as well as the ivory overlays. I ordered a digital high-resolution download of the original images and found that the checkered pattern on the sides of the tiller is in fact small leaves.
                > > >
                > > > http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v483/MCampbell/German1590bowdetailcrop.jpg
                > > >
                > > > Now, my question is, was each of these little leaves hand carved, or did the maker create a metal stamp and simply stamp the leaf pattern on the sides of the tiller. It's obviously a LOT of carving if that's the case and the engraved details on the ivory were most certainly done by hand so it's not inconceivable that the leaves on the tiller were all hand carved. Getting a truly up close and in-person view would surely indicate whether the leaves show signs of compressed wood fibers around the edges that would be the result of using a stamp. However, not being able to look at the original this photo is the best I'm going to get, so it's all speculation at this point. Any ideas, suggestions, thoughts? I'm not even sure how easy it would be to make a stamp, but my first inclination along those lines was to use my dremel to sculpt one from the end of a very large 60d size nail.
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > ------------------------------------
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > >
                > > --
                > > Barun Siegfried Sebastian Faust - Barony of Highland Foorde - Atlantia
                > > http://hf.atlantia.sca.org/ - http://crossbows.biz/ - http://eliw.com/
                > >
                >
              • Vels inn Viggladi
                ... That s hand carving. ... Actually, a stamp would probably be less regular. A stamp, even if perfectly aligned each time, would rupture the wood in places
                Message 7 of 29 , Dec 6, 2010

                  > Sorry, forgot the link to the enlarged photo:
                  >
                  > http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v483/MCampbell/German1590bowdetail.jpg

                  That's hand carving.

                  > --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, "kiltie_celt" <matthew-campbell@...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > That was my initial thought too, but upon magnifying the image even more I'm inclined to think that it may have been done with a stamp. To me the image of the individual leaves is almost too regular. I can see where each one could be tediously carved, but I can also see how a stamp could've been used as well. I've made the tiller of my bow with walnut which is one of the softer hardwoods so it's possible stamping might work in this case. I'll wait to read some more opinions before I commit one way or the other.
                  > >
                  > > In service,
                  > > Rhys Cynydd (aka Matt Campbell)

                  Actually, a stamp would probably be less regular. A stamp, even if perfectly aligned each time, would rupture the wood in places where the stamp is dull, rather than shearing cleanly. A stamp would cut an outline, the carving is not outlined but layered. That stock also has a concave bow followed by a bell in its surface (visible around the nut). There is no way a single stamp would be able to maintain consistency over the curvature of the piece.

                  So, how would this be carved so consistently?

                  Break it down --
                  Step 1: Scribe lozengy cross-hatch to determine the boundaries (trace from a flexible straight-edge)
                  Step 2: Use knife to pare in and add depth to the scribe lines. Pare In meaning first cut is vertical, second cut angles in from the center of the leaf that will be 'behind' to create a groove with a cross section like this l/(center)\l on the rear half of each leaf (the forward half will take care of itself).
                  Step 3: Pare 'down' from tip to tail of the leaves (leave the tips at full height, angle deepens rearward) blending to pared lines.
                  Step 4: Using  a very fine paring chisel or pointed knife, cut the "V" shapes on the 'top' edges of each leaf. This could be eyeballed or scribed before paring (never underestimate the consistency of a human-being that does the exact same thing a few million times in their life).

                  This will have the carver consistently pushing the waste into void space, and working from the largest element to the smallest, protecting the details along the way. At most light taps with a mallet may be useful when doing the larger elements (step 3), the rest should probably be done with a sharp chisel and hand pressure.

                  And there are some pretty variable differences in the leaf-end details. Some of that may be from wear, but I'd bet much of that was from the initial carving.


                  Vels
                • Scot Eddy
                  I had a band saw blade break. New one is on and I hate to throw out a potentially useful item. Is there anything useful that I should make with it? Grace and
                  Message 8 of 29 , Dec 6, 2010
                    I had a band saw blade break. New one is on and I hate to throw out a potentially useful item. Is there anything useful that I should make with it?

                    Grace and Peace,

                    Jovian

                  • W. Roberts
                    Frame saw comes to mind... Lee ... From: Scot Eddy To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com Subject: [MedievalSawdust] Broken band saw
                    Message 9 of 29 , Dec 6, 2010
                      Frame saw comes to mind...

                      Lee

                      --- mister_eddy2003@... wrote:

                      From: Scot Eddy <mister_eddy2003@...>
                      To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [MedievalSawdust] Broken band saw blade
                      Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2010 21:00:23 -0800 (PST)

                      I had a band saw blade break. New one is on and I hate to throw out a potentially useful item. Is there anything useful that I should make with it?

                      Grace and Peace,

                      Jovian
                    • kiltie_celt
                      Vels, I hadn t thought of the curvature and how it would affect the use of a stamp - good point. I ve been poring over that photo quite a lot, and I think
                      Message 10 of 29 , Dec 6, 2010
                        Vels,

                        I hadn't thought of the curvature and how it would affect the use of a stamp - good point. I've been poring over that photo quite a lot, and I think you're correct and my thoughts of a stamp being used are not. The leaves are pretty consistent but not as consistent as you'd see with a stamp. Good point on how consistent one would get if they did something like this for a living as well. I have a nice set of carving gouges with numerous profiles from straight V-groove to more gentle rounded curves. The set also has a carving knife with interchangeable blades too. What if I laid out the lozenge pattern with pencil then came back and used one of the V-gouges to incise those lines then used a combination of gouges and the knife to shape the leaves? Also, any suggestions on a tool to use for the engraving? Most of what I've read on that indicates using a needle or some type of scribing, scratch awl kind of thing. The material I'm using to duplicate the appearance of the ivory is ivory substitute from a company called Masecraft. The ivory substitute is a kind of pliable plastic that even has grain lines in it like real ivory.

                        In service,
                        Rhys Cynydd (aka Matt Campbell)

                        --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, Vels inn Viggladi <velsthe1@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > > Sorry, forgot the link to the enlarged photo:
                        > >
                        > > http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v483/MCampbell/German1590bowdetail.jpg
                        >
                        > That's hand carving.
                        >
                        > > --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, "kiltie_celt" <matthew-campbell@> wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > That was my initial thought too, but upon magnifying the image even more I'm inclined to think that it may have been done with a stamp. To me the image of the individual leaves is almost too regular. I can see where each one could be tediously carved, but I can also see how a stamp could've been used as well. I've made the tiller of my bow with walnut which is one of the softer hardwoods so it's possible stamping might work in this case. I'll wait to read some more opinions before I commit one way or the other.
                        > > >
                        > > > In service,
                        > > > Rhys Cynydd (aka Matt Campbell)
                        >
                        > Actually, a stamp would probably be less regular. A stamp, even if perfectly aligned each time, would rupture the wood in
                        > places where the stamp is dull, rather than shearing cleanly. A stamp
                        > would cut an outline, the carving is not outlined but layered. That
                        > stock also has a concave bow followed by a bell in its surface (visible
                        > around the nut). There is no way a single stamp would be able to
                        > maintain consistency over the curvature of the piece.
                        >
                        > So, how would this be carved so consistently?
                        >
                        > Break it down --
                        > Step 1: Scribe lozengy cross-hatch to determine the boundaries (trace from a flexible straight-edge)
                        > Step 2: Use knife to pare in and add depth to the scribe lines. Pare In meaning first cut is vertical, second cut angles in from the center of the leaf that will be 'behind' to create a groove with a cross section like this l/(center)\l on the rear half of each leaf (the forward half will take care of itself).
                        > Step 3: Pare 'down' from tip to tail of the leaves (leave the tips at full height, angle deepens rearward) blending to pared lines.
                        > Step 4: Using a very fine paring chisel or pointed knife, cut the "V" shapes on the 'top' edges of each leaf. This could be eyeballed or scribed before paring (never underestimate the consistency of a human-being that does the exact same thing a few million times in their life).
                        >
                        > This will have the carver consistently pushing the waste into void space, and working from the largest element to the smallest, protecting the details along the way. At most light taps with a mallet may be useful when doing the larger elements (step 3), the rest should probably be done with a sharp chisel and hand pressure.
                        >
                        > And there are some pretty variable differences in the leaf-end details. Some of that may be from wear, but I'd bet much of that was from the initial carving.
                        >
                        >
                        > Vels
                        >
                      • arnold smith
                        I give then to the guys here for splints on vanbraces are such on armour they just gring off the teeth, Mine are only 1 1/4 blade the bigger ones might even be
                        Message 11 of 29 , Dec 7, 2010
                          I give then to the guys here for splints on vanbraces are such on armour they just gring off the teeth, Mine are only 1 1/4 blade the bigger ones might even be better.


                          To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                          From: mister_eddy2003@...
                          Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2010 21:00:23 -0800
                          Subject: [MedievalSawdust] Broken band saw blade

                           
                          I had a band saw blade break. New one is on and I hate to throw out a potentially useful item. Is there anything useful that I should make with it?

                          Grace and Peace,

                          Jovian


                        • Duncan Hepburn
                          It could be used with some mild steel to make some pretty damascus. If you wanted to make tools out of it, plenty that could be formed for woodworking,
                          Message 12 of 29 , Dec 7, 2010
                            It could be used with some mild steel to make some pretty damascus.

                            If you wanted to make tools out of it, plenty that could be formed for woodworking, engraving, etc.

                            Sorry, I know this is a woodworking forum, but I can't help looking at it with a blacksmith's eye.

                            Duncan
                            the Steppes of Ansteorra
                          • Siegfried
                            Frame Saw :) If it s decently thick, and decently sharp still. I have a 3/4 wide blade that broke a while ago sitting in my shop awaiting that treatment.
                            Message 13 of 29 , Dec 7, 2010
                              Frame Saw :) If it's decently thick, and decently sharp still.

                              I have a 3/4" wide blade that broke a while ago sitting in my shop
                              awaiting that treatment.

                              Siegfried


                              On 12/7/10 12:00 AM, Scot Eddy wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              > I had a band saw blade break. New one is on and I hate to throw out a
                              > potentially useful item. Is there anything useful that I should make
                              > with it?
                              >
                              > Grace and Peace,
                              >
                              > Jovian
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >

                              --
                              Barun Siegfried Sebastian Faust - Barony of Highland Foorde - Atlantia
                              http://hf.atlantia.sca.org/ - http://crossbows.biz/ - http://eliw.com/
                            • David
                              I just tried this pattern on a scrap of walnut. It s pretty easy. Lay out the grid, and cut in deeply with your knife or skew, straight down. Then use your
                              Message 14 of 29 , Dec 7, 2010
                                I just tried this pattern on a scrap of walnut. It's pretty easy. Lay out the grid, and cut in deeply with your knife or skew, straight down. Then use your skew to shave down from the outer/upper tip of the leaf into the V of the lower/inner tip, removing a chip. This gives the relief, and you don't have to remove a lot of material to get a good shadow. Then use your skew straight up to press/cut the detail into the edge of the leaves. I rocked it just a bit.
                                It's basically chip carving, and it goes real fast. This is a fantastic pattern! I think I'll use it on a box or diptych.
                                Tristan de Worrell

                                --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart <baronconal@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > I'd bet they were hand carved not stamped.
                                >
                                > Remember they didn't have quite the same "must save time where possible attitude
                                > that is a
                                > major factor in Modern man's life.
                                >
                                > I do not have specific research to back it up but I have been told ( and can see
                                > the possible truth
                                > in it ) that we need to think outside our box and try to look at the world of
                                > the medieval craftsman
                                > when we are trying to decide how and why things were made they way they were.
                                > Labor was MUCH
                                > cheaper to medieval man. Factor that into your analysis..... Hand carving each
                                > leaf one at a time not so
                                > much of a big deal....
                                >
                                >
                                > that said.......
                                >
                                > A stamp MIGHT have been made to mark the stock consistently.... then hand carved
                                > to bring the
                                > details into higher relief.
                                > Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart
                                >
                                > Aude Aliquid Dignum
                                > ' Dare Something Worthy '
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > ________________________________
                                > From: kiltie_celt <matthew-campbell@...>
                                > To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                                > Sent: Mon, December 6, 2010 6:52:01 PM
                                > Subject: [MedievalSawdust] Renaissance crossbow tiller decoration
                                >
                                >
                                > I'm in the process of constructing this bow:
                                >
                                > http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v483/MCampbell/HuntingxbowGerman1590-2.jpg
                                >
                                > It's a German hunting bow from 1590, on display at the Victoria and Albert
                                > Museum in the UK. While I'm not trying to duplicate it exactly, I am hoping to
                                > achieve something extremely close to the look of the original. Very shortly, I
                                > will be at the point of adding the textural details to the tiller as well as the
                                > ivory overlays. I ordered a digital high-resolution download of the original
                                > images and found that the checkered pattern on the sides of the tiller is in
                                > fact small leaves.
                                >
                                > http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v483/MCampbell/German1590bowdetailcrop.jpg
                                >
                                > Now, my question is, was each of these little leaves hand carved, or did the
                                > maker create a metal stamp and simply stamp the leaf pattern on the sides of the
                                > tiller. It's obviously a LOT of carving if that's the case and the engraved
                                > details on the ivory were most certainly done by hand so it's not inconceivable
                                > that the leaves on the tiller were all hand carved. Getting a truly up close and
                                > in-person view would surely indicate whether the leaves show signs of compressed
                                > wood fibers around the edges that would be the result of using a stamp. However,
                                > not being able to look at the original this photo is the best I'm going to get,
                                > so it's all speculation at this point. Any ideas, suggestions, thoughts? I'm not
                                > even sure how easy it would be to make a stamp, but my first inclination along
                                > those lines was to use my dremel to sculpt one from the end of a very large 60d
                                > size nail.
                                >
                              • powell.sean@comcast.net
                                The only frame saws I am familiar with are for tree-limb pruning and are designed for push and pull cutting. A band-saw blade is mono -directional. Would this
                                Message 15 of 29 , Dec 7, 2010

                                  The only frame saws I am familiar with are for tree-limb pruning and are designed for push and pull cutting. A band-saw blade is mono-directional. Would this still make a good frame-saw? If so I assume it should cut on the push?

                                   

                                  I have a roll of used 1.25" metal-cutting band-saw blade in my shop. It is no long sharp enough to cut steel but I suppose I could make a frame saw also. I had considered making wood handled table knives but I didn't know if the entire blade was tool steel or just a portion at the tip with a more ductile back edge. Anyone know a simple way to check rather then bringing it to the lab?

                                   

                                  Sean


                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: "Siegfried" <siegfried@...>
                                  To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                                  Cc: "Scot Eddy" <mister_eddy2003@...>
                                  Sent: Tuesday, December 7, 2010 9:21:07 AM
                                  Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] Broken band saw blade

                                  Frame Saw :)  If it's decently thick, and decently sharp still.

                                  I have a 3/4" wide blade that broke a while ago sitting in my shop
                                  awaiting that treatment.

                                  Siegfried


                                  On 12/7/10 12:00 AM, Scot Eddy wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > I had a band saw blade break. New one is on and I hate to throw out a
                                  > potentially useful item. Is there anything useful that I should make
                                  > with it?
                                  >
                                  > Grace and Peace,
                                  >
                                  > Jovian
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >

                                  --
                                  Barun Siegfried Sebastian Faust - Barony of Highland Foorde - Atlantia
                                  http://hf.atlantia.sca.org/ - http://crossbows.biz/ - http://eliw.com/


                                  ------------------------------------

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                                • Vels inn Viggladi
                                  Rhys, No worries, we re all learning stuff with this, and that s part of the point of the list - comparing notes and talking it all out. You could use the
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Dec 7, 2010
                                    Rhys,

                                    No worries, we're all learning stuff with this, and that's part of the point of the list - comparing notes and talking it all out.
                                    You could use the V-groove to rough out the lozenge, but you'll have to be very careful to keep the correct edge vertical. If you plow it as a V (so both sides slant), you'll get a result that may not be as crisp as you'd like. Doing an initial pass with a straight blade will set the crisp vertical carving where you want it. If your second pass was with the V groove using the initial blade cut as a guide, you should do okay.

                                    Were this carving going on a flat surface, I'd actually recommend drafting the design on regular paper, or by computer and printing, then transfer it to the wood with carbon paper. That may still work if you cut the draft to match the profile of the wood and tape everything down very carefully. You said you are working in walnut, which is usually rather dark. Carbon lines (graphite pencil or carbon paper) can get lost even before the eyestrain sets in. If you can rustle up a white chalk pencil to draw or draw over the pattern lines, you can really make those lines visible before carving.

                                    Looks like your carving set is pretty squared away, just keep them sharp. Yeah, here would be a good place to recommend a decent hand-sharpening stone: cheap stones and bench grinders will likely hasten the demise of your carving set. Going Scary Sharp may set you up for the foreseeable. Just hone them up to a nicely polished edge and try to keep them there, you don't really need to shave with them. If the waste looks like you are shaving chocolate, then you are just right.

                                    I've come to the same Imitation Ivory product for doing inlay in a 16th century Italian Table I've been working on. It's a dyed acrylic, so my next step is to determine if I can come up with a reasonable dye combination to make it at home. I'd like to try casting in the stuff.



                                    Vels

                                    >
                                    > Vels,
                                    >
                                    > I hadn't thought of the curvature and how it would affect the use of a stamp - good point. I've been poring over that photo quite a lot, and I think you're correct and my thoughts of a stamp being used are not. The leaves are pretty consistent but not as consistent as you'd see with a stamp. Good point on how consistent one would get if they did something like this for a living as well. I have a nice set of carving gouges with numerous profiles from straight V-groove to more gentle rounded curves. The set also has a carving knife with interchangeable blades too. What if I laid out the lozenge pattern with pencil then came back and used one of the V-gouges to incise those lines then used a combination of gouges and the knife to shape the leaves? Also, any suggestions on a tool to use for the engraving? Most of what I've read on that indicates using a needle or some type of scribing, scratch awl kind of thing. The material I'm using to duplicate the appearance of the ivory is ivory substitute from a company called Masecraft. The ivory substitute is a kind of pliable plastic that even has grain lines in it like real ivory.
                                    >
                                    > In service,
                                    > Rhys Cynydd (aka Matt Campbell)

                                  • Colleen Vince
                                    That pattern could also be modified to make a nice plumetty field (feathers). I might give it a go on a xmas present I havent quite finished yet. Cheers --
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Dec 7, 2010
                                      That pattern could also be modified to make a nice plumetty field (feathers).
                                       
                                      I might give it a go on a xmas present I havent quite finished yet.
                                       
                                      Cheers

                                      --
                                      Mary Ostler    
                                      Apprentice to Mistress Agnes Cresewyke
                                      Lions Gate Game Marshal
                                      www.maryostler.com
                                    • Colleen Vince
                                      I use a very thin bandsaw blade on a turnsaw I have. Because the teeth are so fine it cuts slowly, but the turn radius is very tight. Makes for good
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Dec 7, 2010
                                        I use a very thin bandsaw blade on a turnsaw I have. Because the teeth are so fine it cuts slowly, but the turn radius is very tight. Makes for good scroll/gingerbread elements. The blade is attached to turned knobs that are inside the frame arms. This way if the frame gets in the way you can twist the blade knobs to get more work clearence.
                                         


                                        --
                                        Mary Ostler    
                                        Apprentice to Mistress Agnes Cresewyke
                                        Lions Gate Game Marshal
                                        www.maryostler.com
                                      • Jeffrey Johnson
                                        Depends on the blade. Most wide bandsaw blades have little fleam, so. Not so good for frame saws. ... are
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Dec 7, 2010

                                          Depends on the blade. Most wide bandsaw blades have little fleam, so. Not so good for frame saws.

                                          On Dec 7, 2010 12:03 PM, "Colleen Vince" <42vince@...> wrote:
                                          > I use a very thin bandsaw blade on a turnsaw I have. Because the teeth are
                                          > so fine it cuts slowly, but the turn radius is very tight. Makes for good
                                          > scroll/gingerbread elements. The blade is attached to turned knobs that are
                                          > inside the frame arms. This way if the frame gets in the way you can twist
                                          > the blade knobs to get more work clearence.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > --
                                          > Mary Ostler
                                          > Apprentice to Mistress Agnes Cresewyke
                                          > Lions Gate Game Marshal
                                          > www.maryostler.com
                                        • kiltie_celt
                                          Tristan, Any way you can take a series of pics of what you re doing and post it somewhere that I can get a view of how you re going about it? I ve got plenty
                                          Message 20 of 29 , Dec 7, 2010
                                            Tristan,

                                            Any way you can take a series of pics of what you're doing and post it somewhere that I can get a view of how you're going about it? I've got plenty of scrap walnut to experiment with so I'll try a variety of cutting implements and approaches, but if I could get a look at how someone else (with more experience) is approaching this, it could help speed things up for me.

                                            In service,
                                            Rhys Cynydd (aka Matt Campbell)

                                            --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, "David" <dthelmers@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > I just tried this pattern on a scrap of walnut. It's pretty easy. Lay out the grid, and cut in deeply with your knife or skew, straight down. Then use your skew to shave down from the outer/upper tip of the leaf into the V of the lower/inner tip, removing a chip. This gives the relief, and you don't have to remove a lot of material to get a good shadow. Then use your skew straight up to press/cut the detail into the edge of the leaves. I rocked it just a bit.
                                            > It's basically chip carving, and it goes real fast. This is a fantastic pattern! I think I'll use it on a box or diptych.
                                            > Tristan de Worrell
                                            >
                                            > --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart <baronconal@> wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > > I'd bet they were hand carved not stamped.
                                            > >
                                            > > Remember they didn't have quite the same "must save time where possible attitude
                                            > > that is a
                                            > > major factor in Modern man's life.
                                            > >
                                            > > I do not have specific research to back it up but I have been told ( and can see
                                            > > the possible truth
                                            > > in it ) that we need to think outside our box and try to look at the world of
                                            > > the medieval craftsman
                                            > > when we are trying to decide how and why things were made they way they were.
                                            > > Labor was MUCH
                                            > > cheaper to medieval man. Factor that into your analysis..... Hand carving each
                                            > > leaf one at a time not so
                                            > > much of a big deal....
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > that said.......
                                            > >
                                            > > A stamp MIGHT have been made to mark the stock consistently.... then hand carved
                                            > > to bring the
                                            > > details into higher relief.
                                            > > Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart
                                            > >
                                            > > Aude Aliquid Dignum
                                            > > ' Dare Something Worthy '
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > ________________________________
                                            > > From: kiltie_celt <matthew-campbell@>
                                            > > To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                                            > > Sent: Mon, December 6, 2010 6:52:01 PM
                                            > > Subject: [MedievalSawdust] Renaissance crossbow tiller decoration
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > I'm in the process of constructing this bow:
                                            > >
                                            > > http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v483/MCampbell/HuntingxbowGerman1590-2.jpg
                                            > >
                                            > > It's a German hunting bow from 1590, on display at the Victoria and Albert
                                            > > Museum in the UK. While I'm not trying to duplicate it exactly, I am hoping to
                                            > > achieve something extremely close to the look of the original. Very shortly, I
                                            > > will be at the point of adding the textural details to the tiller as well as the
                                            > > ivory overlays. I ordered a digital high-resolution download of the original
                                            > > images and found that the checkered pattern on the sides of the tiller is in
                                            > > fact small leaves.
                                            > >
                                            > > http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v483/MCampbell/German1590bowdetailcrop.jpg
                                            > >
                                            > > Now, my question is, was each of these little leaves hand carved, or did the
                                            > > maker create a metal stamp and simply stamp the leaf pattern on the sides of the
                                            > > tiller. It's obviously a LOT of carving if that's the case and the engraved
                                            > > details on the ivory were most certainly done by hand so it's not inconceivable
                                            > > that the leaves on the tiller were all hand carved. Getting a truly up close and
                                            > > in-person view would surely indicate whether the leaves show signs of compressed
                                            > > wood fibers around the edges that would be the result of using a stamp. However,
                                            > > not being able to look at the original this photo is the best I'm going to get,
                                            > > so it's all speculation at this point. Any ideas, suggestions, thoughts? I'm not
                                            > > even sure how easy it would be to make a stamp, but my first inclination along
                                            > > those lines was to use my dremel to sculpt one from the end of a very large 60d
                                            > > size nail.
                                            > >
                                            >
                                          • Bobby Bourgoin (Robert du Bourg)
                                            You could try to make something similar to a coping saw, or a bow saw, using a portion of the original band saw blade. Seigneur Robert du Bourg Menuisier /
                                            Message 21 of 29 , Dec 7, 2010

                                              You could try to make something similar to a coping saw, or a bow saw, using a portion of the original band saw blade.

                                               

                                              Seigneur Robert du Bourg

                                              Menuisier / Ébéniste

                                              bobby.bourgoin@...

                                              Bobby Bourgoin

                                               

                                              If I sing a song, will you sing along, or should I just keep singing right here by myself?

                                              If I tell you I’m strong, will you play along, or will you see I’m as insecure as anybody else?

                                              If I follow along, does it mean I belong, or will I keep on feeling different from everybody else?

                                                                                                                      Sing Along – Blue Man Group

                                               

                                               


                                              From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com [mailto: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of powell.sean@...
                                              Sent: 7 décembre 2010 10:23
                                              To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                                              Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] Broken band saw blade

                                               

                                               

                                              The only frame saws I am familiar with are for tree-limb pruning and are designed for push and pull cutting. A band-saw blade is mono-directional. Would this still make a good frame-saw? If so I assume it should cut on the push?

                                               

                                              I have a roll of used 1.25" metal-cutting band-saw blade in my shop. It is no long sharp enough to cut steel but I suppose I could make a frame saw also. I had considered making wood handled table knives but I didn't know if the entire blade was tool steel or just a portion at the tip with a more ductile back edge. Anyone know a simple way to check rather then bringing it to the lab?

                                               

                                              Sean


                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                              From: "Siegfried" <siegfried@...>
                                              To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                                              Cc: "Scot Eddy" <mister_eddy2003@...>
                                              Sent: Tuesday, December 7, 2010 9:21:07 AM
                                              Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] Broken band saw blade

                                              Frame Saw :)  If it's decently thick, and decently sharp still.

                                              I have a 3/4" wide blade that broke a while ago sitting in my shop
                                              awaiting that treatment.

                                              Siegfried


                                              On 12/7/10 12:00 AM, Scot Eddy wrote:
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > I had a band saw blade break. New one is on and I hate to throw out a
                                              > potentially useful item. Is there anything useful that I should make
                                              > with it?
                                              >
                                              > Grace and Peace,
                                              >
                                              > Jovian
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >

                                              --
                                              Barun Siegfried Sebastian Faust - Barony of Highland Foorde - Atlantia
                                              http://hf.atlantia.sca.org/ - http://crossbows.biz/ - http://eliw.com/


                                              ------------------------------------

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                                            • Broom
                                              ... Have you asked the museum curators? It sounds like you haven t yet. They can examine it for the details that will answer this question, and may have done
                                              Message 22 of 29 , Dec 7, 2010
                                                > Now, my question is, was each of these little leaves hand carved, or did the maker create a metal stamp and simply stamp the leaf pattern on the sides of the tiller.

                                                Have you asked the museum curators? It sounds like you haven't yet.

                                                They can examine it for the details that will answer this question,
                                                and may have done so already. Be specific, so you can educate them on
                                                what to look for (if they don't already know), and ask questions, so
                                                they will produce the evidence needed to assure you (if they already
                                                know, and are inclined to answer sparsely).

                                                ' | Broom IAmBroom @ gmail . com
                                                ' | cellphone: 412-389-1997
                                                ' | 9370 Shadduck Rd, McKean, PA 16426
                                                '\|/ "Discere et docere", which means:
                                                '/|\ "If you suck on a tit the movie gets an R rating. If you hack the
                                                //|\\ tit off with an axe it will be PG." - Jack Nicholson
                                              • Colleen Vince
                                                I have asked museum curators for information many times, and only once got a response back. London clockmakers guild hall curator rules. Anyone else have
                                                Message 23 of 29 , Dec 7, 2010

                                                  I have asked museum curators for information many times, and only once got a response back. London clockmakers guild hall curator rules.

                                                  Anyone else have difficulties with communications with museum currators?

                                                  from the phone of Mary / Leeny

                                                  On 2010-12-07 10:23 AM, "Broom" <IAmBroom@...> wrote:

                                                   



                                                  > Now, my question is, was each of these little leaves hand carved, or did the maker create a meta...

                                                  Have you asked the museum curators? It sounds like you haven't yet.

                                                  They can examine it for the details that will answer this question,
                                                  and may have done so already. Be specific, so you can educate them on
                                                  what to look for (if they don't already know), and ask questions, so
                                                  they will produce the evidence needed to assure you (if they already
                                                  know, and are inclined to answer sparsely).

                                                  ' | Broom IAmBroom @ gmail . com
                                                  ' | cellphone: 412-389-1997
                                                  ' | 9370 Shadduck Rd, McKean, PA 16426
                                                  '\|/ "Discere et docere", which means:
                                                  '/|\ "If you suck on a tit the movie gets an R rating. If you hack the
                                                  //|\\ tit off with an axe it will be PG." - Jack Nicholson
                                                • conradh@efn.org
                                                  ... Doesn t matter--that s what the frame is for! Blade is under tension at all times anyway, you do that with the tensioner (usually a Spanish windlass where
                                                  Message 24 of 29 , Dec 7, 2010
                                                    On Tue, December 7, 2010 7:23 am, powell.sean@... wrote:
                                                    >

                                                    >
                                                    > The only frame saws I am familiar with are for tree-limb pruning and are
                                                    > designed for push and pull cutting. A band-saw blade is mono
                                                    > -directional. Would this still make a good frame-saw? If so I assume it
                                                    > should cut on the push?

                                                    Doesn't matter--that's what the frame is for! Blade is under tension at
                                                    all times anyway, you do that with the tensioner (usually a Spanish
                                                    windlass where you twist a cord loop with a stick)

                                                    If you don't like cutting on the pull stroke, try holding the other side
                                                    of the saw frame.
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > I have a roll of used 1.25" metal-cutting band-saw blade in my shop. It
                                                    > is no long sharp enough to cut steel but I suppose I could make a frame
                                                    > saw also. I had considered making wood handled table knives but I didn't
                                                    > know if the entire blade was tool steel or just a portion at the tip with
                                                    > a more ductile back edge. Anyone know a simple way to check rather then
                                                    > bringing it to the lab?
                                                    >
                                                    You don't need a lab for that. Just heat one end red hot. (The exact
                                                    color varies with the light level where you're working, so just set a
                                                    magnet nearby, and touch the hot metal to it. It's hot enough when it
                                                    loses its magnetism.) Dip the hot end in a tin can full of water. Put
                                                    the cooled metal against something hard and tap it with a hammer. If it
                                                    is stiff, or if it breaks, you have enough carbon in the steel for a
                                                    knife. Or see if the cooled end is too hard to be filed, means the same
                                                    thing.

                                                    Actually making the knife will involve tempering as well, but the
                                                    hardening will answer your question about whether the metal you have (or
                                                    any other sample!) is suitable.

                                                    Ulfhedinn
                                                  • conradh@efn.org
                                                    ... If a curator is inclined toward research, they will have several of their own projects. They will probably feel behind on them, because of less desired
                                                    Message 25 of 29 , Dec 7, 2010
                                                      On Tue, December 7, 2010 10:26 am, Colleen Vince wrote:
                                                      > I have asked museum curators for information many times, and only once
                                                      > got a response back. London clockmakers guild hall curator rules.
                                                      >
                                                      > Anyone else have difficulties with communications with museum currators?
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      If a curator is inclined toward research, they will have several of their
                                                      own projects. They will probably feel behind on them, because of less
                                                      desired tasks involved with their job. They're not likely to regard
                                                      themselves as an automatic research assistant for someone they don't even
                                                      know!

                                                      If you have your shit really together, you can fairly often get permission
                                                      to examine things carefully from them, but that's _you_ doing the
                                                      observations and notes and measurements. This is very good, because it
                                                      also means access to study all the stuff in the storerooms. Most museums
                                                      have 6-10 times more stuff than they have room to display, and from our
                                                      point of view, those pieces may have as much or more information than the
                                                      pretty one they picked to show the public.

                                                      An academic connection and credentials make this easy, but you can
                                                      sometimes succeed without it. _Don't_ mention replication! Many curators
                                                      have a violent prejudice because they'll assume you're an antique faker.
                                                      Some of them don't like experimental archaeology either--it's a matter of
                                                      feud within the field.

                                                      Think Prometheus. You are going there to bring out knowledge, but you
                                                      don't want them to eat your liver either. Keep them sweet and you can do
                                                      wonderful things.

                                                      Ulfhedinn
                                                    • Broom
                                                      ... Never! I ve found them to be very helpful, myself. Only done this twice, but was bowled over with their helpfulness both times. The Museum of London or V&A
                                                      Message 26 of 29 , Dec 7, 2010
                                                        > I have asked museum curators for information many times, and only once got a
                                                        > response back. London clockmakers guild hall curator rules.
                                                        >
                                                        > Anyone else have difficulties with communications with museum currators?

                                                        Never! I've found them to be very helpful, myself. Only done this
                                                        twice, but was bowled over with their helpfulness both times. The
                                                        Museum of London or V&A (I forget which) sent me an heavy parcel of
                                                        research papers on sword scabbards & hangers, when I inquired many
                                                        years ago.

                                                        This, of course, is why I mentioned it.

                                                        ' | Broom IAmBroom @ gmail . com
                                                        ' | cellphone: 412-389-1997
                                                        ' | 9370 Shadduck Rd, McKean, PA 16426
                                                        ' | "Discere et docere", which means:
                                                        '\|/ "It is forbidden to kill; therefore all murderers are punished
                                                        '/|\ unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets."
                                                        //|\\ - Voltaire
                                                      • David
                                                        Rhys, I just got a camera working and took some photos of the process. I m uploading them as a pdf to the files, Chip Carved Leaf Pattern . Tristan
                                                        Message 27 of 29 , Jan 6, 2011
                                                          Rhys, I just got a camera working and took some photos of the process. I'm uploading them as a pdf to the files, "Chip Carved Leaf Pattern".
                                                          Tristan

                                                          --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, "kiltie_celt" <matthew-campbell@...> wrote:
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > Tristan,
                                                          >
                                                          > Any way you can take a series of pics of what you're doing and post it somewhere that I can get a view of how you're going about it? I've got plenty of scrap walnut to experiment with so I'll try a variety of cutting implements and approaches, but if I could get a look at how someone else (with more experience) is approaching this, it could help speed things up for me.
                                                          >
                                                          > In service,
                                                          > Rhys Cynydd (aka Matt Campbell)
                                                          >
                                                          > --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, "David" <dthelmers@> wrote:
                                                          > >
                                                          > > I just tried this pattern on a scrap of walnut. It's pretty easy. Lay out the grid, and cut in deeply with your knife or skew, straight down. Then use your skew to shave down from the outer/upper tip of the leaf into the V of the lower/inner tip, removing a chip. This gives the relief, and you don't have to remove a lot of material to get a good shadow. Then use your skew straight up to press/cut the detail into the edge of the leaves. I rocked it just a bit.
                                                          > > It's basically chip carving, and it goes real fast. This is a fantastic pattern! I think I'll use it on a box or diptych.
                                                          > > Tristan de Worrell
                                                          > >
                                                          > > --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart <baronconal@> wrote:
                                                          > > >
                                                          > > > I'd bet they were hand carved not stamped.
                                                          > > >
                                                          > > > Remember they didn't have quite the same "must save time where possible attitude
                                                          > > > that is a
                                                          > > > major factor in Modern man's life.
                                                          > > >
                                                          > > > I do not have specific research to back it up but I have been told ( and can see
                                                          > > > the possible truth
                                                          > > > in it ) that we need to think outside our box and try to look at the world of
                                                          > > > the medieval craftsman
                                                          > > > when we are trying to decide how and why things were made they way they were.
                                                          > > > Labor was MUCH
                                                          > > > cheaper to medieval man. Factor that into your analysis..... Hand carving each
                                                          > > > leaf one at a time not so
                                                          > > > much of a big deal....
                                                          > > >
                                                          > > >
                                                          > > > that said.......
                                                          > > >
                                                          > > > A stamp MIGHT have been made to mark the stock consistently.... then hand carved
                                                          > > > to bring the
                                                          > > > details into higher relief.
                                                          > > > Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart
                                                          > > >
                                                          > > > Aude Aliquid Dignum
                                                          > > > ' Dare Something Worthy '
                                                          > > >
                                                          > > >
                                                          > > >
                                                          > > >
                                                          > > > ________________________________
                                                          > > > From: kiltie_celt <matthew-campbell@>
                                                          > > > To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                                                          > > > Sent: Mon, December 6, 2010 6:52:01 PM
                                                          > > > Subject: [MedievalSawdust] Renaissance crossbow tiller decoration
                                                          > > >
                                                          > > >
                                                          > > > I'm in the process of constructing this bow:
                                                          > > >
                                                          > > > http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v483/MCampbell/HuntingxbowGerman1590-2.jpg
                                                          > > >
                                                          > > > It's a German hunting bow from 1590, on display at the Victoria and Albert
                                                          > > > Museum in the UK. While I'm not trying to duplicate it exactly, I am hoping to
                                                          > > > achieve something extremely close to the look of the original. Very shortly, I
                                                          > > > will be at the point of adding the textural details to the tiller as well as the
                                                          > > > ivory overlays. I ordered a digital high-resolution download of the original
                                                          > > > images and found that the checkered pattern on the sides of the tiller is in
                                                          > > > fact small leaves.
                                                          > > >
                                                          > > > http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v483/MCampbell/German1590bowdetailcrop.jpg
                                                          > > >
                                                          > > > Now, my question is, was each of these little leaves hand carved, or did the
                                                          > > > maker create a metal stamp and simply stamp the leaf pattern on the sides of the
                                                          > > > tiller. It's obviously a LOT of carving if that's the case and the engraved
                                                          > > > details on the ivory were most certainly done by hand so it's not inconceivable
                                                          > > > that the leaves on the tiller were all hand carved. Getting a truly up close and
                                                          > > > in-person view would surely indicate whether the leaves show signs of compressed
                                                          > > > wood fibers around the edges that would be the result of using a stamp. However,
                                                          > > > not being able to look at the original this photo is the best I'm going to get,
                                                          > > > so it's all speculation at this point. Any ideas, suggestions, thoughts? I'm not
                                                          > > > even sure how easy it would be to make a stamp, but my first inclination along
                                                          > > > those lines was to use my dremel to sculpt one from the end of a very large 60d
                                                          > > > size nail.
                                                          > > >
                                                          > >
                                                          >
                                                        • leaking pen
                                                          carved. Easy to do, you use a v edge to make the cross hatch pattern, then a few strokes on each diamond to make it a scale (looks more like scales to leaves
                                                          Message 28 of 29 , Jan 6, 2011
                                                            carved.  Easy to do, you use a v edge to make the cross hatch pattern, then a few strokes on each diamond to make it a scale (looks more like scales to leaves to me. )  Probably take me an hour. Maybe two if its a really hard wood.

                                                            On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 4:52 PM, kiltie_celt <matthew-campbell@...> wrote:
                                                             

                                                            I'm in the process of constructing this bow:

                                                            http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v483/MCampbell/HuntingxbowGerman1590-2.jpg

                                                            It's a German hunting bow from 1590, on display at the Victoria and Albert Museum in the UK. While I'm not trying to duplicate it exactly, I am hoping to achieve something extremely close to the look of the original. Very shortly, I will be at the point of adding the textural details to the tiller as well as the ivory overlays. I ordered a digital high-resolution download of the original images and found that the checkered pattern on the sides of the tiller is in fact small leaves.

                                                            http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v483/MCampbell/German1590bowdetailcrop.jpg

                                                            Now, my question is, was each of these little leaves hand carved, or did the maker create a metal stamp and simply stamp the leaf pattern on the sides of the tiller. It's obviously a LOT of carving if that's the case and the engraved details on the ivory were most certainly done by hand so it's not inconceivable that the leaves on the tiller were all hand carved. Getting a truly up close and in-person view would surely indicate whether the leaves show signs of compressed wood fibers around the edges that would be the result of using a stamp. However, not being able to look at the original this photo is the best I'm going to get, so it's all speculation at this point. Any ideas, suggestions, thoughts? I'm not even sure how easy it would be to make a stamp, but my first inclination along those lines was to use my dremel to sculpt one from the end of a very large 60d size nail.


                                                          • James Winkler
                                                            “Now, my question is, was each of these little leaves hand carved, or did the maker create a metal stamp and simply stamp the leaf pattern on the sides of
                                                            Message 29 of 29 , Jan 6, 2011
                                                               
                                                              “Now, my question is, was each of these little leaves hand carved, or did the maker create a metal stamp and simply stamp the leaf pattern on the sides of the tiller.”
                                                               
                                                              I looked at the picture very closely under photoshop...  there’s enough variation in the leaf detail to suggest, at least to me, that a stamp was NOT used.   But the ‘diamond’ shape of the diapering was very consistent.  
                                                               
                                                              What I *think* they did would go like this:
                                                               
                                                              Lay out the ‘diamond” diapering pattern with a pencil...   use a knife to score the pattern about 1/8 inch deep.  Using a chip carving knife...  taper each “diamond” from leaf tip to stem end.   Then... add leaf detail to each leaf.
                                                               
                                                              ... just a guess...
                                                               
                                                              Chas. Oakley
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