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Re: DUH! RE: [MedievalSawdust] Re: 6 board chest (antique discovery..or confirmation) + Thoughts on forum)

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  • AlbionWood
    Drew, this is two consecutive posts in which you claim there is evidence but then offer none. Do we have a semantic misunderstanding here? Speculation and
    Message 1 of 101 , Dec 1, 2010
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      Drew, this is two consecutive posts in which you claim there is
      "evidence" but then offer none. Do we have a semantic misunderstanding
      here? Speculation and evidence are very different things.

      If you have evidence, cite it; if not, just say so. Either way, use
      fewer words. Long-winded verbal handwaving isn't getting us anywhere.

      Cheers,
      Tim


      On 12/1/2010 12:06 PM, D. Young wrote:
      >
      >
      >
      > Anything could be victorian. They were known for using period lumber and
      > producing new pieces "in the style of ....."
      >
      > As for support of my contention "we have just too much evidence that
      > shops practiced inter-disciplinary work". Geesh...look around. Countless
      > multimedia objects existed. So the problem with relying solely on guild
      > restrictions (aside from the fact that we do not fully know them all),
      > is that they are often very limited in scope,eg. London. Well, what
      > happens if you bought a chest in London....and had it repaired or
      > modifying somewhere else? The international InterPol element enforcement
      > simply did not exist.
      >
      > The other problem with guild restrictions is that they stifle
      > innovation. In other words, guild restrictions were essentially
      > protective measures primarily for the craftsmen of that media. But logic
      > tells us that they would naturally retard innovative ideas using multi
      > media, differing materials or techniques. There are also logicstical or
      > practical problems. What if the customer wants a partially boarded,
      > partially joyned chest? Ive seen them, they do exist. Who does the work?
      > Joyner or Boarder?.....do they combine forces?....but that raises a
      > problem with guild restrictions.
      >
      > Again I go back to FFolkes treatise on armour which elaborated many
      > cases where sub standard pieces made it to market. I dont see why
      > furniture is much different frankly.
      >
      > And lets look at Sumptuary Laws---they had about as much grasp as a
      > babys hand.
      >
      >
      > To be clear, I am not arguing that guild restrictions did not exist.
      >
      > I am simply saying I strongly suspect there was a fair degree of work
      > done under the radar.
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
      >
      > Fine Armour and Historical Reproductions
      >
      > Custom Commissions Welcome....!
      >
      > www.partsandtechnical.com <http://www.partsandtechnical.com>
      > /(Well Formed Munitions Catalog Coming This Spring)/
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
      > To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
      > From: jrwinkler@...
      > Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 10:27:24 -0600
      > Subject: RE: DUH! RE: [MedievalSawdust] Re: 6 board chest (antique
      > discovery..or confirmation) + Thoughts on forum)
      >
      > Will makes exactly the point.
      >
      > My citing guild rules wasn't to indicate who may or may not have done
      > what but rather to document the range of techniques that were employed.
      > I think it doubtful that the courts would have made regulations
      > (regardless of how well or casually enforced) for a technique that
      > didn't exist or wasn't being employed.
      >
      > I would like to ask Drew to support his contention that "we have just
      > too much evidence that shops practiced inter-disciplinary work". What I
      > have seen so far would indicate that the guild structure, where
      > employed, was rigidly enforced (at least in later period urban
      > environments) and that penalties for violating the structure were rather
      > severe.
      >
      > As far as the chest is concerned... I'm a bit skeptical about several
      > things on it... the Victorians had an obsession for things medieval. I
      > own a 6-board chest from the late 15th-early 16th c. purchased from
      > Phillips Auction house, London. The 'lock plate' was a Victorian
      > addition... (no real lock)... The thinness of the boards on the subject
      > chest would suggest this "might" be the same on the subject chest...
      > and, while the back hinges seem to be mounted properly (as far as I can
      > see)... the terminal on the hinges doesn't seem right based on the
      > examples I've seen...
      >
      > Don't get wrong... it *could* be legit... but I'd really love to see the
      > provenience on the piece...
      >
      > ... just some thoughts
      > Oakley
      >
      > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
      > To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
      > From: mcnutt@...
      > Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 10:29:01 -0500
      > Subject: RE: DUH! RE: [MedievalSawdust] Re: 6 board chest (antique
      > discovery..or confirmation) + Thoughts on forum)
      >
      >
      > Actually, guild restrictions are evidence that things WERE done. People
      > don’t make rules banning stuff, unless someone is doing it.
      >
      > Will
      >
      > *From:*medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
      > [mailto:medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com] *On Behalf Of *D. Young
      >
      > I also do not hold guild restrictions in terribly high regard.....the
      > reality is that we have just too much evidence that shops practiced
      > inter-disciplinary work, particularly if something was going directly to
      > a private client.....why would the client care if a boarded chest had a
      > little joinery to hold the box together better?
      >
      > Drew
      >
      > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
      >
      > Fine Armour and Historical Reproductions
      >
      > Custom Commissions Welcome....!
      >
      > www.partsandtechnical.com <http://www.partsandtechnical.com>
      > /(Well Formed Munitions Catalog Coming This Spring)/
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
      >
      > To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com <mailto:medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com>
      > From: furnaceplans@... <mailto:furnaceplans@...>
      > Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 18:01:36 -0500
      > Subject: RE: DUH! RE: [MedievalSawdust] Re: 6 board chest (antique
      > discovery..or confirmation) + Thoughts on forum)
      >
      >
      > In a forum you can upload directly to the thread.
      >
      > And people dont have to go hunting around to find your photos.
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
      >
      > Fine Armour and Historical Reproductions
      >
      > Custom Commissions Welcome....!
      >
      > www.partsandtechnical.com <http://www.partsandtechnical.com>
      > /(Well Formed Munitions Catalog Coming This Spring)/
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
      >
      > To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com <mailto:medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com>
      > From: wolfeyes@... <mailto:wolfeyes@...>
      > Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2010 19:55:37 -0800
      > Subject: DUH! RE: [MedievalSawdust] Re: 6 board chest (antique
      > discovery..or confirmation) + Thoughts on forum)
      >
      > --- furnaceplans@... <mailto:furnaceplans@...> wrote:
      >
      > > Pics coming soon. (another reason for easy use of a forum).
      >
      > Yeah, we get it. You want pitchers.
      >
      > 1.) I'd like to direct your attention to the "Photos" section. Knock
      > yerself out.
      > 2.) As has already been mentioned, feel free to open an account on
      > Flickr, or PhotoBucket, or any one of a dozen other sites. Post the link
      > here, in your reply. "Tab A goes into Slot A, see
      > http://www.somephotoplace.com/myaccount/slot_tab_A.jpg"
      > 3.) Just on the assumption that you have a home ISP, there's a pretty
      > good chance that said ISP account comes with available web-space. FTP
      > your pics there, and resort to the method in #2. If you don't have the
      > web-space, feel free to email me the pics and I'll post them on mine -
      > I've got two ISP accounts, and I'm not using the web-space from either one.
      > (consider this "3a.)" - it's been years since I checked, are there still
      > free web-hosting sites a-la GeoCities, or did the "merger madness" do
      > them all in?)
      >
      > You're trying *really* hard to convince us that we've been doing it
      > wrong all along - at least, that's the impression "I" get. Being on a
      > number of email lists AND forums, I was on the fence when the subject
      > was first brought up. But as far as I'm concerned, your "no disrepect"
      > was *highly* disrespectful, especially the crack about 70's and 80's
      > technology. I and many others on this list are running (or capable of
      > running) any level of technology from a Commodore64 to the bloodiest of
      > "bleeding edge" Linux. So nobody's "holding us back" because of old
      > hardware or software. That particular argument is utterly irrelevant,
      > and I daresay the vast majority of us have been using computers long
      > enough that the "gee-whiz" factor of bells, whistles, and fancy
      > blinkenliten pales in comparison to real, digestible content.
      >
      > The list as it is works fine for me, I see no need to change for
      > change's sake. I haven't had a problem with the Photos section, nor have
      > I had a problem with outside photo sites - just ask the folks on the
      > Coleman forum who have had to put up with my various and sundry "gloats"!
      >
      > Lee
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
    • Bill McNutt
      Odds are, Brendon is not talking to me. From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com [mailto:medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Brendon Sent: Sunday,
      Message 101 of 101 , Dec 12, 2010
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        Odds are, Brendon is not talking to me.

         

        From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com [mailto:medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Brendon
        Sent: Sunday, December 12, 2010 1:19 AM
        To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] RE: Guild restrictions

         

         

        did you have a good flight back babe?

         

        On 2/12/2010, at 12:54 PM, D. Young wrote:



         

        Some examples of what I was referring to....


        Viking age ring hinge (which I suspect would be forge welded)
        http://www.asbrand.com/pics/projects/mastermyr_chest/mastermyr_chest_hinge_02.png
        http://codesmiths.com/shed/boxes/norse/strap_hinges.jpg

        By contrast 16th and 17th century gimlet or ring hinge:
        http://www.abbey-web.net/6536%20%284%29.jpg
        http://www.mmarkley.com/chests/1034-chest-hinge.jpg

        Butterfly hinges with screws:
        http://www.tewkesburyiron.co.uk/admin/images/Half_Butterfly_Hinge_2_11344.jpeg (replica but shows how screws were used, being somewhat counterintuitive to the modern mind as easily removable....but screw drivers and such tools were not necessarily readily available as they are today, minimizing theft)


        --Drew

         


         

        Fine Armour and Historical Reproductions

             Custom Commissions Welcome....!

        www.partsandtechnical.com
        (Well Formed Munitions Catalog Coming This Spring)

         




        To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
        From: furnaceplans@...
        Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 18:42:02 -0500
        Subject: RE: [MedievalSawdust] RE: Guild restrictions

         

        "Surprisingly, many common woodworking techniques were not as ubiquitous as one might think throughout SCA time. There are often subtle differences that can help identify a specific time, region or culture for a piece."

        --I agree with this absolutely.

        My angle was that it can be tricky to weed out later repairs from period construction.   As a good example my 1640 chest has screws in the hinges.   Some antique dealers feel the use of screws indicates a repair or replacement of the rivets as screws were not widely used until the 18th century.   However I have found more than ample evidence in wooden pieces from the 1500s such as gun powder horns, and screws and bolts were used on armour since at least the 15th century, so clearly screwed technology (ahem) was around.

        Now the point here is that screw drivers were not as common, and so removing a screw was not quite as easy simple as it is now.   Ive seen screws over lock plates to that very end, suggesting that a technique we deem as commonplace or anachronistic may have been employed.   

        Another example is ring hinges.....these drive me crazy because we see them on well made joyed boxes with heavy carving....clearly an expensive chest.....yet using a very primitive type of hinge.   I have theorized the ring hinge may have something to do with green wood furniture not yet having "settled" into place....or possibly just a vogue in something retro....whats old is new is a reoccuring theme we do see at least in the Renaissance period (heck the very word means rebirth).    So while we see viking chests like the Mastermyr chest with ring hinges that seems to fit with that era, we also know standered barrel hinges were used as well.    And because of that duality I cannot, at least right now, see any clear pattern or reasoning for why some pieces used barrel hinges and why some used ring hinges or gimlets.  


        --Drew



         


         

        Fine Armour and Historical Reproductions

             Custom Commissions Welcome....!

        www.partsandtechnical.com
        (Well Formed Munitions Catalog Coming This Spring)

         




        To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
        From: ewdysar@...
        Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 22:03:47 +0000
        Subject: [MedievalSawdust] RE: Guild restrictions

         

        I believe that the point that was trying to be made with guild restriction was not about who might or might not be doing the work. I think that guild restriction were being used as proof of accepted techniques. If the guild restricited a given technique's use, then it was obviously a common or accepted technique for that time period and location.

        Since this group is interested specifically when and where certain techniques were used, this can be good information. I'll throw out a topic that comes up now and again as an example.

        Is dovetail joinery correct for 10th century Britain? This question immediately falls to finding the earliest extant example of dovetail joinery from the area. I know that there are extant examples of sliding dovetails in Norse woodworking finds (various box lids), but I have yet to see an example of pin and tail dovetails in any Norse chest. Some 90 deg lap joints have an angled shoulder, but I don't really consider that to be dovetailed.

        Surprisingly, many common woodworking techniques were not as ubiquitous as one might think throughout SCA time. There are often subtle differences that can help identify a specific time, region or culture for a piece.

        Eirikr

        --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, "D. Young" <furnaceplans@...> wrote:
        >
        > Im not saying guild rule and restrictions were not held many times. To that extent I agree Will.
        >
        > What Im saying is that there is ample extant evidence that such rules were bent on occasion particularly outside of a major city, the long arm of the law and that of guilds was weaker.
        >
        > Or with respect to a client who wanted something that fell between say joyners and boarders.
        >
        > Now I approach this from an armouring point of view in which I can assuredly say that there is able reason to believe guild restrictions were not as hard and fast as we might think.
        >
        > If companies often get away with substandard things today....recalls constantly for safety and crappy products.....I believe this only proves my point.
        >
        > People have been trying to skirt the rules since the first guy got busted but the temptation remained. Human nature.
        >
        > If it happened in the armour world, which is arguably the highest craft of the middle ages due to its skill level and critical importance.....I have no doubt it happened with furniture on occassion
        >

         

         

         

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