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RE: [MedievalSawdust] Hello Folks.

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  • D. Young
    Right on brother! I check out ebay constantly. Also craigslist. Ive scored 6 hand planes for 20 bucks. Another time I got 4 drawknives for 8 dollars
    Message 1 of 30 , Nov 10, 2010
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      Right on brother!    I check out ebay constantly.   Also craigslist. 

      Ive scored 6 hand planes for 20 bucks.    Another time I got 4 drawknives for 8 dollars and shipping. 





      Fine Armour and Historical Reproductions

           Custom Commissions Welcome....!

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      To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
      From: tvh.b3r.calontir@...
      Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 10:55:49 -0600
      Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] Hello Folks.

       
      There is also the factor that before one knows that one is going to do a lot of a particular craft, such as woodworking, it is a lot cheaper to buy several hand tools than one bench type power tool.

      Herr Thomas von Holthausen
      Barony of Three Rivers, Calontir

      On 11/10/2010 8:43 AM, D. Young wrote:
       

      Truth be told though, sometimes hand tools produce a faster job than power tools.   Thats one of the reasons I use them.

      By the time I prep my machine planer or sanders....I could have planed a couple feet of boards already if its only a few millimeters.

      But your right that we have to be reasonable.  A drilled hole can be made with a hand brace or an electric drill with very little difference....and once filled, screwed, plugged...none is the wiser.







      Fine Armour and Historical Reproductions

           Custom Commissions Welcome....!

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      (Well Formed Munitions Catalog Coming This Spring)
       





      To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
      From: mcnutt@...
      Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 09:06:55 -0500
      Subject: RE: [MedievalSawdust] Hello Folks.

       

      Speaking as a Laurel, it’s always better to pursue an approach that’s as medieval as possible, but speaking as a judge, I realize that people have lives, and everyone has to choose their compromises.  If you can and have documented the medieval practice, and noted where you deviated and why, you will score only SLIGHTLY lower than a purist would in my categories.

       

      For example:

      “In this illumination, a Venetian scribe would most likely have used cobalt blue.  That stuff is so toxic that I don’t dare have it in my house, so I have substituted a modern pigment.”

      “The leather these widgets are made of came from a critter that is now extinct, so I’ve substituted a modern leather.”

      “Gold costs it’s weight in, well, gold, and I can’t afford it, so I’m using this artificial substitute.”

       

      More germane to this group:

      “In 16th century Germany, a master joiner would have had journeymen and apprentices under him to process these boards to proper thickness with an adze, saw, scrub plane, and then smoothing plane.  Lacking this manpower, I have substituted a power planer to save time, as I only have three hours a week to work in my shop.”

       

      A propane fire can be lit and is ready NOW, rather than in 15 – 20 minutes, like charcoal, or a half-hour like coal.  At least at MY forge.  Some people build fires faster than others.

       

      So while I admire, applaud, and yes, score higher, people who can go all the way from sheep to shawl without modern assistance, I try to be realistic.

       

      After all, if you’re trying to do it perfectly, you have to give up artificial light in your shop, and work by oil lamp, or only during the daylight.

       

      Master William

       

      From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com [mailto:medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Thomas von Holthausen

      I am intrigued by many things, but am of the mind that if I am going to do something for an SCA competition I should not be using powered tools or propane fire which seem to be normal for the blacksmiths around here.

      Herr Thomas von Holthausen
      Barony of Three Rivers, Calontir


    • Siegfried
      ... I would disagree with that. From the groups own homepage: A group for the discussion of Medieval woodworking techniques and for display of pictures,
      Message 2 of 30 , Nov 10, 2010
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        On 11/10/10 11:13 AM, D. Young wrote:
        > And correct me if Im mistaken....but isnt the point of this group to
        > push the envelope in terms of authenticity?

        I would disagree with that.

        From the groups own homepage:
        "
        A group for the discussion of Medieval woodworking techniques and for
        display of pictures, drawings, articles and photos of ideas or resources.

        Items that aren't strictly medieval but fit into the re-creationist
        context are also welcome.
        "

        To me, this means that this group is open to anyone of any
        'medieval-ish' background, and to discuss anything woodworking that
        happens to relate to re-creationism.

        Whether that's masterwork pieces performed completely with handtools.
        Or discussions on quick/efficient ways to churn out camp-chairs or
        camp-boxes with plywood, slots, and screws.

        Each end of the discussion, has it's place.

        Siegfried - Who does both sides of the spectrum


        --
        Barun Siegfried Sebastian Faust - Barony of Highland Foorde - Atlantia
        http://hf.atlantia.sca.org/ - http://crossbows.biz/ - http://eliw.com/
      • Bill McNutt
        I didn’t see anything else. I don’t know than anyone felt impugned. I know I didn’t. I thought we were just discussion philosophy and approach. Will
        Message 3 of 30 , Nov 10, 2010
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          I didn’t see anything else.  I don’t know than anyone felt impugned.  I know I didn’t.  I thought we were just discussion philosophy and approach.

           

          Will

           

          From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com [mailto:medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Thomas von Holthausen
          Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 11:52 AM
          To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] Hello Folks.

           

           

          Good lords and ladies.
          I had no intention of impugning what others do or how they do it.
          I was only stating my own interest and desire and seeking instruction on how to carry it out.

          Herr Thomas von Holthausen
          Barony of Three Rivers, Calontir


          On 11/10/2010 8:28 AM, julian wilson wrote:

           

          Unto the most noble herr Thomas of Holthausen
          does
          Lord Matthewe Baker
          send  greetings in the brotherhood of courtoisie and chivalry.

          Good my Lord,
           recreational time is our most precious and absolutely irreplaceable resource.
          Unless you are trying to prove a point, there is no reason not use use modern Workshop equipment in making artefacts for SCA Competition.
          Certainly, as far as woodworking is concerned, if you do your "finishing" right, it would take a Lab examination to prove or disprove the use of modern power tools. And I see no reason why you should not use a modern heat source in Blacksmithing work; the metal doesn't care, and what ever you have used will not be evident in your finished artefact.

          The quest for authenticity can go too far, sometimes; - where does one begin one's compromises?
          We cannot, as private persons with limited budgets, - re-create a whole, long-vanished infrastructure.
          Raw timber for example - was it hand-felled? Were the logs hauled from the forest by a horse-drawn timber tug? Was the log split with wedges? Trimmed with adzes? Sawn into plank-stock by hand, by 2 sawyers working around a sawpit?
           Forge fuel? Will you make the forge? Will you make the Smith's tools yourself, by hand, in the medieval manner? Was the charcoal produced in the medieval manner? Or were the coals mined in a medieval  fashion, by hand? How was the metal stock produced? Does it have the same ration of iron to carbon to produce steel of a medieval quality? And so on, and so on.
          I have used salvaged 14th century timber to make a few artefacts, and have used salvaged 14th and 15th century metal to produce various items. Just to prove to myself that I COULD do it.  Using the salvaged materials took me roughly three-times as long as it would have done using modern raw materials - and there was no overt evidence that I'd done so in the finished artefacts. So unless some Museum or rich private Client is paying me, I won't be doing THAT again!
          IMHO, - unless someone  is paying one to make an artefact in a totally medieval fashion from the beginning [in which case one charges "all the traffic will bear"] , - one has to think seriously about saving one's time by using modernly-sourced raw materials, and modern tooling, and then hand-finishing to the best of one's abilities.

          In service to the medieval Dream,
           Matthewe Baker


          --- On Wed, 10/11/10, Thomas von Holthausen <tvh.b3r.calontir@...> wrote:


          From: Thomas von Holthausen <tvh.b3r.calontir@...>
          Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] Hello Folks.
          To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Wednesday, 10 November, 2010, 5:20

           

          Sorry for the long delay.
          First I got a cold, then my wife did, and the laryngitis is hanging on making us miserable and inactive.

          The reason I asked where you were is because I liked your approach to being as period as possible.
          Unfortunately, you are not nearby.
          Fortunately, we visit my in-laws in Alexandria VA at least once a year, but usually during the week of Christmas.

          I am intrigued by many things, but am of the mind that if I am going to do something for an SCA competition I should not be using powered tools or propane fire which seem to be normal for the blacksmiths around here.

          Herr Thomas von Holthausen
          Barony of Three Rivers, Calontir


          On 11/6/2010 4:01 PM, D. Young wrote:

           

          Im just outside Washington DC.    Temple Hills, Maryland.


          Drew


           

          Fine Armour and Historical Reproductions

               Custom Commissions Welcome....!

          www.partsandtechnical.com
          (Well Formed Munitions Catalog Coming This Spring)

           




          To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
          From: tvh.b3r.calontir@...
          Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2010 15:34:19 -0500
          Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] Hello Folks.

           

          Where are you, in mundane geographical terms?

          Herr Thomas von Holthausen
          Barony of Three Rivers, Calontir


          On 10/20/2010 8:17 PM, partsandtechnical wrote:

           

          Hi Folks

          My name is Andrew (Drew) Young. Im variously known as PartsandTechnical on the Armour Archive. I see some familiar face--well board names!

          I specialize in museum grade historical reproductions for my clients, but the woodworking and timber framing bug has always been with me, and in the last few years its really been a passion I cant shake.

          Avoiding electrical tools whenever I can, my tools of choice are hand saws, handplanes, drawknives, chisels, mallets etc.

          Most of my lumber if freshly felled, thus green. Ive been splitting my logs for the sake of quartered wood in many cases when its needed.

          Making woodworking tools and collecting antiques is also a hobby. Ive now forged a few specialized axes for carpentry and timber framing. My period tools include numerous original medieval axes, the oldest of which is 13th century. Another dates to around 1450, and two new ones date to approximately the 14th/15th century and 17th century.

          I also have a growing collection of original antique furniture from the mid 15th century, the Elizabethan 16th century and a newly acquired 17th century joined coffer. Other pieces include three coffer panels and a 17th century chair top...one of my favorites. I own several original branch-wrapped hoops (pre 1800) and a 16th or 17th century butter churn, again with branch-wrapped hoops.

          I will post pictures of all these pieces. Please feel free to ask me any questions about my collection. Im happy to provide info or pics. Oh in a few months, I will also be offering a line of quartered, hewn and planed planks for furniture projects, as well as accurately forged hinges, forged nails and forged hardware for chests and so forth. There seemed to be interest in do it yourself type kits.

          Anyway Ill start posting pics this week.

          Cheers!
          Drew

        • D. Young
          My point is that if we dont push the envelope....than what exactly is medievalish? I mean, we could settle for styrofoam chests painted brown and call it a
          Message 4 of 30 , Nov 10, 2010
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            My point is that if we dont push the envelope....than what exactly is medievalish?

            I mean, we could settle for styrofoam chests painted brown and call it a day. 

            In other words, as authenticity is pushed, we then realize what medieval really means....and thus medievalish is pushed along with it.

            All this reminds me of the scadian clothing about 20 years ago.   The bar kept being lifted which helps reconcile the concept of a medieval event.



            So Im saying the bar should be lifted .....each time it is, those things which still  fall short are ~still~ better than brown painted styrofoam chests.







            Fine Armour and Historical Reproductions

                 Custom Commissions Welcome....!

            www.partsandtechnical.com
            (Well Formed Munitions Catalog Coming This Spring)
             




            > To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
            > From: siegfried@...
            > Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 12:37:44 -0500
            > Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] Hello Folks.
            >
            > On 11/10/10 11:13 AM, D. Young wrote:
            > > And correct me if Im mistaken....but isnt the point of this group to
            > > push the envelope in terms of authenticity?
            >
            > I would disagree with that.
            >
            > From the groups own homepage:
            > "
            > A group for the discussion of Medieval woodworking techniques and for
            > display of pictures, drawings, articles and photos of ideas or resources.
            >
            > Items that aren't strictly medieval but fit into the re-creationist
            > context are also welcome.
            > "
            >
            > To me, this means that this group is open to anyone of any
            > 'medieval-ish' background, and to discuss anything woodworking that
            > happens to relate to re-creationism.
            >
            > Whether that's masterwork pieces performed completely with handtools.
            > Or discussions on quick/efficient ways to churn out camp-chairs or
            > camp-boxes with plywood, slots, and screws.
            >
            > Each end of the discussion, has it's place.
            >
            > Siegfried - Who does both sides of the spectrum
            >
            >
            > --
            > Barun Siegfried Sebastian Faust - Barony of Highland Foorde - Atlantia
            > http://hf.atlantia.sca.org/ - http://crossbows.biz/ - http://eliw.com/
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
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            >
            > <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
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          • conradh@efn.org
            ...
            Message 5 of 30 , Nov 11, 2010
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              > On 11/10/10 11:13 AM, D. Young wrote:
              >
              >> And correct me if Im mistaken....but isnt the point of this group to
              >> push the envelope in terms of authenticity?

              > On Wed, November 10, 2010 9:37 am, Siegfried wrote:
              > I would disagree with that.
              >
              <statement of group's purpose snipped>
              >
              > To me, this means that this group is open to anyone of any
              > 'medieval-ish' background, and to discuss anything woodworking that
              > happens to relate to re-creationism.
              >
              > Whether that's masterwork pieces performed completely with handtools.
              > Or discussions on quick/efficient ways to churn out camp-chairs or
              > camp-boxes with plywood, slots, and screws.
              >
              > Each end of the discussion, has it's place.
              >
              Actually I think you're both right. The group is broad enough to cover
              all sorts of woodworking, and ought to be. Which means that tips and
              techniques can cover the whole spectrum and be of interest to a fair
              percentage of readers either way.

              _Personally_, my own SCA interests are turning more and more toward
              authentic methods of work and camping. This is not for appearance's sake,
              as it seems to be for so many of the 'Nazis' who give authenticity a bad
              name. In my case, it's a personal drive to better understand what it was
              really like to live and work back then. Power tools and propane anything
              contribute very little to this, so I'm gradually raising my standards as I
              learn new things.

              I am _not_ here to sneer at someone who, say, uses power tools to make a
              six-board chest. (And if someone comes up with a way to do chip carving
              on a table saw, I would be fascinated to read about it!) But from my
              seemingly rare point of view, I'm not interested in hiding a cooler with
              either handmade or machine-made boxes. What I've done is learn how to eat
              well for a weekend, or a week, without refrigeration. It's not difficult
              at all, if you enjoy camp cookery, and unlike the cooler-hiding, gives one
              more small insight into the constraints (and sometimes advantages!) of our
              ancestors' lives.


              In passing, though I use lump charcoal in my attempts at demonstrating
              period blacksmithing in my booth, the use of coal can be documented at
              least as far back as 1377. The severe deforestation of Europe that
              culminated in that century (France had a million hectares less forest than
              it has _today_, frex) put terrible pressures on the price of charcoal.

              Of course, the source for 1377 suggests that the use of coal may have been
              a desperate experiment by someone who had not yet learned the tricks. A
              London smith was brought to court by angry neighbors complaining about the
              smoke. I can relate to this, as my own first attempts at a coal forge
              were untutored except by a book that turned out to be not the best. I
              filled our entire street with choking smoke. You literally could not see
              the house across from ours. Then I heard the sirens. Whoever called the
              fire department was being quite reasonable--an actual housefire we had
              once down the street made less smoke!

              By 1500 the use of coal as forge fuel was routine in many areas where it
              was available, such as much of England and Scotland.

              Ulfhedinn
            • Siegfried
              ... Well said. In my case, I go back and forth depending on what I m making. Sometimes I m making a medieval replica crossbow, and so it s lots of hand work
              Message 6 of 30 , Nov 11, 2010
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                > Actually I think you're both right. The group is broad enough to cover
                > all sorts of woodworking, and ought to be.

                Well said. In my case, I go back and forth depending on what I'm making.

                Sometimes I'm making a medieval replica crossbow, and so it's lots of
                hand work (after rough power work) to get it exactly how I want it to look.

                Sometimes I'm making a munition combat crossbow. Where the idea is to
                create something that is period in appearance, but quickly churned out
                for efficiency/cost.

                Right now, a big focus that I have is an attempt for myself, and others,
                to generate lots of quick/inexpensive camp-equipment that can replace
                plastic tables, rubbermaid totes, and coleman chairs.

                Once those are created/replaced in as quick of a timeframe as possible.
                Focus will shift back to making 'awesome truly period works of art'
                versions of same :)

                It's a spectrum I swing back-n-forth on, depending upon the task at
                hand. And I like doing that myself :)

                But I have great respect for the hand-made works of art :)

                Siegfried



                --
                Barun Siegfried Sebastian Faust - Barony of Highland Foorde - Atlantia
                http://hf.atlantia.sca.org/ - http://crossbows.biz/ - http://eliw.com/
              • conradh@efn.org
                ... To say nothing of the much greater strength of handmade dowels, at least if you rive them instead of ripsawing. I was breaking up some old machined dowels
                Message 7 of 30 , Nov 11, 2010
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                  On Wed, November 10, 2010 8:13 am, D. Young wrote:
                  >


                  > And there is a natural fear of using hand tools because people think they
                  > are too hard to master. This is not true. After a few hours with a
                  > drawknife or hand plane, one gets the idea pretty quickly. Same is true
                  > with chisels.
                  >
                  > And then there are things like machined dowels----worst idea ever!
                  > Machine dowels are too perfect, which often results in a looser fit.
                  > Hand made dowels take a few minutes to make but produce a tighter fit
                  > because they are not as round.
                  >
                  To say nothing of the much greater strength of handmade dowels, at least
                  if you rive them instead of ripsawing. I was breaking up some old
                  machined dowels just the other day (for firewood) and was appalled at the
                  way they broke. Some of the grain was running 30-40 degrees off the axis
                  of the dowel! The shear strength you expect, and need, in a doweled joint
                  just isn't going to be there.

                  There is a tendency to think that anything modern has to be better, and
                  certainly faster, than the old stuff. We need to get beyond the
                  self-congratulatory bullshit and realize that occasionally the old ways
                  were _faster_ than modern. And materials prepared in the old way were
                  routinely better quality. And especially that a hand-tool shop can often
                  be set up for less money, simply because it's easier to scrounge or make
                  the tools.

                  Ulfhedinn
                • jay sabath
                  Bill, Thanks for the link. please check out http://www.marhamchurchantiques.com/ They usually have several photos from each item as well as a good description.
                  Message 8 of 30 , Nov 12, 2010
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                    Bill,

                    Thanks for the link. 

                    please check out
                    http://www.marhamchurchantiques.com/
                    They usually have several photos from each item as well as a good description.


                    Lord Johannes Machiavelli
                    Canton of Rokkehealden
                    Barony of Ayreton
                    Kingdom of the Middle

                    On Wed, Nov 10, 2010 at 10:36 AM, Bill McNutt <mcnutt@...> wrote:
                     

                    My favorite online antiques site is Huntington Antiques, in the south of England.

                    http://www.huntington-antiques.com/products.php?type=1

                     

                     




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