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RE: [MedievalSawdust] Hello Folks.

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  • D. Young
    Then again, if something is against the law, you can generally be sure that someone was doing it. --Yup! Good link btw, thanks for sharing. Fine Armour and
    Message 1 of 30 , Nov 10, 2010
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      "Then again, if something is against the law, you can generally be sure that someone was doing it."



      --Yup!  

      Good link btw, thanks for sharing.





      Fine Armour and Historical Reproductions

           Custom Commissions Welcome....!

      www.partsandtechnical.com
      (Well Formed Munitions Catalog Coming This Spring)
       





      To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
      From: mcnutt@...
      Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 11:36:05 -0500
      Subject: RE: [MedievalSawdust] Hello Folks.

       

      Yeah – but working by oil lamp isn’t period for 16th century English Joyners.  If we get caught at it, the guild will fine us.


       

      Will

       

      From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com [mailto:medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of D. Young
      Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 11:29 AM
      To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [MedievalSawdust] Hello Folks.

       

       


      Aw c'mon Will....Harbor Freight now sells whale oil for lamps!    Get authentic man!    ;)


      Seriously though, Im not trying to come across as arrogant....I just encourage folks to not fear intimidation or fear of lost time.  Period work goes pretty fast once you get the hang of it.   The learning curve is not that long.

      I also encourage folks to surf antique sites on line.   There are several that have wonderful photos of medieval furniture. 

      Here are a few I recomend highly....I save photos, text and measurements all the time, which helps build a  big library of references.  



      http://www.periodoakantiques.co.uk/category.php?catid=8

      http://www.antiqueoakfurniture.co.uk/category.asp?catid=9

      http://www.english-medieval-antiques.com/

      http://www.marhamchurchantiques.com/   (their site was down for repairs, but this is a fantastic site)







       

      Fine Armour and Historical Reproductions

           Custom Commissions Welcome....!

      www.partsandtechnical.com
      (Well Formed Munitions Catalog Coming This Spring)

       




      To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
      From: mcnutt@...
      Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 11:20:40 -0500
      Subject: RE: [MedievalSawdust] Hello Folks.

       

       

      Unlike Matt, I can’t claim to spot a machined piece from quite THAT far away, but I do share his believe that you can’t get a medieval result with modern tools and techniques. 

       

      But I also don’t ripsaw 2” thick white oak by hand.  Life is too short not to use a tablesaw.  And ALL my work is done by fluorescent light.  I work nights after my day job. There’s just no way for me to work by daylight.

       

      So we all make compromises where we need to.

       

      Will

       

      From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com [mailto:medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of D. Young
      Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 11:14 AM
      To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [MedievalSawdust] Hello Folks.

       

       


      Matt


      I would contend that machine work is easy to spot, but moreso there are a great many things that modern tools cannot achieve in terms of fit, function and appearance.

      And correct me if Im mistaken....but isnt the point of this group to push the envelope in terms of authenticity?   

      Im not advocating the use of a hand saw over a power saw for cutting down stock to working size because the end result is moot.....that sawn board will likely be further worked such that any trace of the hand or power saw marks  disappear in sawdust. 

      But if the objective is to make authentic medieval furniture....you have to use period tools and techniques.   Not for the sake of self satisfaction necessarily (which is another topic) but because the end results SHOW.    I can spot a machined or faked piece a mile away.   

      A big part of what I can spot (and what I encourage people to work against) is the sense of perfect symmetry ---it did not exist !     Or the elimination of tool marks which existed everywhere on period pieces.

      And there is a natural fear of using hand tools because people think they are too hard to master.    This is not true.   After a few hours with a drawknife or hand plane, one gets the idea pretty quickly.   Same is true with chisels.  

      And then there are things like machined dowels----worst idea ever!   Machine dowels are too perfect, which often results in a looser fit.   Hand made dowels take a few minutes to make but produce a tighter fit because they are not as round.   

      I used to use machines to produce my period furniture.    Then I -tried- using period tools and found the work went much faster than I thought and the end results not only looked better,they worked better.

      Just as an example.....I have recently been into making period tankards and buckets.    Coopering has been on my list of things to try.   I was VERY INTIMIDATED.

      But I gave it a try.   And I screwed up a few times....but a few days later I was getting the hang of it.  


      So machines have their place.    But I believe that if the point is to historically recreate medieval or renaissance furniture, we should eschew them as much as possible, including the disguise of machine evidence because it does not push the envelope any if we dont.   

      My two cents.

      Drew


       

      Fine Armour and Historical Reproductions

           Custom Commissions Welcome....!

      www.partsandtechnical.com
      (Well Formed Munitions Catalog Coming This Spring)

       



      To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
      From: smnco37@...
      Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 14:28:00 +0000
      Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] Hello Folks.

       

      Unto the most noble herr Thomas of Holthausen
      does
      Lord Matthewe Baker
      send  greetings in the brotherhood of courtoisie and chivalry.

      Good my Lord,
       recreational time is our most precious and absolutely irreplaceable resource.
      Unless you are trying to prove a point, there is no reason not use use modern Workshop equipment in making artefacts for SCA Competition.
      Certainly, as far as woodworking is concerned, if you do your "finishing" right, it would take a Lab examination to prove or disprove the use of modern power tools. And I see no reason why you should not use a modern heat source in Blacksmithing work; the metal doesn't care, and what ever you have used will not be evident in your finished artefact.

      The quest for authenticity can go too far, sometimes; - where does one begin one's compromises?
      We cannot, as private persons with limited budgets, - re-create a whole, long-vanished infrastructure.
      Raw timber for example - was it hand-felled? Were the logs hauled from the forest by a horse-drawn timber tug? Was the log split with wedges? Trimmed with adzes? Sawn into plank-stock by hand, by 2 sawyers working around a sawpit?
       Forge fuel? Will you make the forge? Will you make the Smith's tools yourself, by hand, in the medieval manner? Was the charcoal produced in the medieval manner? Or were the coals mined in a medieval  fashion, by hand? How was the metal stock produced? Does it have the same ration of iron to carbon to produce steel of a medieval quality? And so on, and so on.
      I have used salvaged 14th century timber to make a few artefacts, and have used salvaged 14th and 15th century metal to produce various items. Just to prove to myself that I COULD do it.  Using the salvaged materials took me roughly three-times as long as it would have done using modern raw materials - and there was no overt evidence that I'd done so in the finished artefacts. So unless some Museum or rich private Client is paying me, I won't be doing THAT again!
      IMHO, - unless someone  is paying one to make an artefact in a totally medieval fashion from the beginning [in which case one charges "all the traffic will bear"] , - one has to think seriously about saving one's time by using modernly-sourced raw materials, and modern tooling, and then hand-finishing to the best of one's abilities.

      In service to the medieval Dream,
       Matthewe Baker


      --- On Wed, 10/11/10, Thomas von Holthausen <tvh.b3r.calontir@...> wrote:


      From: Thomas von Holthausen <tvh.b3r.calontir@...>
      Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] Hello Folks.
      To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Wednesday, 10 November, 2010, 5:20

       

      Sorry for the long delay.
      First I got a cold, then my wife did, and the laryngitis is hanging on making us miserable and inactive.

      The reason I asked where you were is because I liked your approach to being as period as possible.
      Unfortunately, you are not nearby.
      Fortunately, we visit my in-laws in Alexandria VA at least once a year, but usually during the week of Christmas.

      I am intrigued by many things, but am of the mind that if I am going to do something for an SCA competition I should not be using powered tools or propane fire which seem to be normal for the blacksmiths around here.

      Herr Thomas von Holthausen
      Barony of Three Rivers, Calontir


      On 11/6/2010 4:01 PM, D. Young wrote:

       

      Im just outside Washington DC.    Temple Hills, Maryland.


      Drew


       

      Fine Armour and Historical Reproductions

           Custom Commissions Welcome....!

      www.partsandtechnical.com
      (Well Formed Munitions Catalog Coming This Spring)

       



      To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
      From: tvh.b3r.calontir@...
      Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2010 15:34:19 -0500
      Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] Hello Folks.

       

      Where are you, in mundane geographical terms?

      Herr Thomas von Holthausen
      Barony of Three Rivers, Calontir


      On 10/20/2010 8:17 PM, partsandtechnical wrote:

       

      Hi Folks

      My name is Andrew (Drew) Young. Im variously known as PartsandTechnical on the Armour Archive. I see some familiar face--well board names!

      I specialize in museum grade historical reproductions for my clients, but the woodworking and timber framing bug has always been with me, and in the last few years its really been a passion I cant shake.

      Avoiding electrical tools whenever I can, my tools of choice are hand saws, handplanes, drawknives, chisels, mallets etc.

      Most of my lumber if freshly felled, thus green. Ive been splitting my logs for the sake of quartered wood in many cases when its needed.

      Making woodworking tools and collecting antiques is also a hobby. Ive now forged a few specialized axes for carpentry and timber framing. My period tools include numerous original medieval axes, the oldest of which is 13th century. Another dates to around 1450, and two new ones date to approximately the 14th/15th century and 17th century.

      I also have a growing collection of original antique furniture from the mid 15th century, the Elizabethan 16th century and a newly acquired 17th century joined coffer. Other pieces include three coffer panels and a 17th century chair top...one of my favorites. I own several original branch-wrapped hoops (pre 1800) and a 16th or 17th century butter churn, again with branch-wrapped hoops.

      I will post pictures of all these pieces. Please feel free to ask me any questions about my collection. Im happy to provide info or pics. Oh in a few months, I will also be offering a line of quartered, hewn and planed planks for furniture projects, as well as accurately forged hinges, forged nails and forged hardware for chests and so forth. There seemed to be interest in do it yourself type kits.

      Anyway Ill start posting pics this week.

      Cheers!
      Drew

       


    • Thomas von Holthausen
      Fortunately my mundane and Society names match. Thanks for the good advice and link. Herr Thomas von Holthausen Barony of Three Rivers, Calontir
      Message 2 of 30 , Nov 10, 2010
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        Fortunately my mundane and Society names match.

        Thanks for the good advice and link.
        Herr Thomas von Holthausen
        Barony of Three Rivers, Calontir
        

        On 11/10/2010 7:53 AM, D. Young wrote:
         


        Hi Thomas  ?
         
        (I stick with mundane names is possible....easier to remember).

        Well ya know, the thing with propane or mapp gas is that its heat...just heat.      If youre looking for the black coating that youd imagine on blacksmithed items, you really dont have to build a forge.   In fact coal would be out of the question--its not medieval.   Charcoal is what youd use.   

        And yet, dunking your hot work in linseed oil helps to darken it....the "pores" of the metal open, accept the oil and then cool....trapping the blackened color.   Its easy with propane or gas.   Most natural oils help darken metal when heated.    Dont have to get them too hot either....just braze the metal.   And paint....dont forget, lot of things were painted.   Just use a period paint.     

        As for period wood working.....to me its a labor of love.    What I suggest is hitting ebay and picking up things like:

        --several draw knives
        --several wood planes (longer and shorter)
        --wood rasps
        --a series of 3 or 4 chisels
        --mallets
        --and get yourself good C clamps or vices.  

        Now pine or softwoods are easy to work....and oak is harder.    Yet once you master oak....its a down hill learning curve for pine...much easier.


        For anyone I HIGHLY....and I mean HIGHLY recommend Peter Follansbees blog which I read religiously and has been a huge inspiration in my life

        http://pfollansbee.wordpress.com/

        http://pfollansbee.wordpress.com/2010/05/16/workbench-fittings-17th-c-style/


        I met Peter at Plimoth a year or two ago and since have chimed in on his blog with questions and so forth.   

        And while he does work in the the 17th century style....its still very applicable to medieval work.   In fact not much changed.

        The main difference is that most early american furniture was quartered wood because of labor shortages in the early colonies.

        In Europe wood was quartered at times but I convinced more and more that the its a myth that all/most Medieval work was quarter wood.

        Im just not finding these results based on having studied hundreds of extant pieces of furniture from the 14th-17th centuries in Europe.

        Some pieces were, yes....many were also sawn straight through.  

        Quartered wood seems as much a fashion in the later period 17th century onward, that we anachronistically thing was applicable to the middle ages also.   Not always the case.

        The reason quartered wood became more frequent was because trees were smaller and smaller.....so splitting sure beat cutting...is still faster.



        One thing to note with oak....you will find that scraping the wood is sometimes as effective as planing it.   

        Oh...and realize that the concept of  baby bottom smooth wood is a modern concept.    Sanded wood is modern.   Not period.  A planed piece of wood can get remarkably smooth, but its not like a sanded piece at 400 grit or something like that.

















        Fine Armour and Historical Reproductions

             Custom Commissions Welcome....!

        www.partsandtechnical.com
        (Well Formed Munitions Catalog Coming This Spring)
         





        To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
        From: tvh.b3r.calontir@...
        Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2010 23:20:01 -0600
        Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] Hello Folks.

         
        Sorry for the long delay.
        First I got a cold, then my wife did, and the laryngitis is hanging on making us miserable and inactive.

        The reason I asked where you were is because I liked your approach to being as period as possible.
        Unfortunately, you are not nearby.
        Fortunately, we visit my in-laws in Alexandria VA at least once a year, but usually during the week of Christmas.

        I am intrigued by many things, but am of the mind that if I am going to do something for an SCA competition I should not be using powered tools or propane fire which seem to be normal for the blacksmiths around here.

        Herr Thomas von Holthausen
        Barony of Three Rivers, Calontir
        

        On 11/6/2010 4:01 PM, D. Young wrote:
         
        Im just outside Washington DC.    Temple Hills, Maryland.


        Drew




        Fine Armour and Historical Reproductions

             Custom Commissions Welcome....!

        www.partsandtechnical.com
        (Well Formed Munitions Catalog Coming This Spring)
         





        To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
        From: tvh.b3r.calontir@...
        Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2010 15:34:19 -0500
        Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] Hello Folks.

         
        Where are you, in mundane geographical terms?

        Herr Thomas von Holthausen
        Barony of Three Rivers, Calontir
        

        On 10/20/2010 8:17 PM, partsandtechnical wrote:
         
        Hi Folks

        My name is Andrew (Drew) Young. Im variously known as PartsandTechnical on the Armour Archive. I see some familiar face--well board names!

        I specialize in museum grade historical reproductions for my clients, but the woodworking and timber framing bug has always been with me, and in the last few years its really been a passion I cant shake.

        Avoiding electrical tools whenever I can, my tools of choice are hand saws, handplanes, drawknives, chisels, mallets etc.

        Most of my lumber if freshly felled, thus green. Ive been splitting my logs for the sake of quartered wood in many cases when its needed.

        Making woodworking tools and collecting antiques is also a hobby. Ive now forged a few specialized axes for carpentry and timber framing. My period tools include numerous original medieval axes, the oldest of which is 13th century. Another dates to around 1450, and two new ones date to approximately the 14th/15th century and 17th century.

        I also have a growing collection of original antique furniture from the mid 15th century, the Elizabethan 16th century and a newly acquired 17th century joined coffer. Other pieces include three coffer panels and a 17th century chair top...one of my favorites. I own several original branch-wrapped hoops (pre 1800) and a 16th or 17th century butter churn, again with branch-wrapped hoops.

        I will post pictures of all these pieces. Please feel free to ask me any questions about my collection. Im happy to provide info or pics. Oh in a few months, I will also be offering a line of quartered, hewn and planed planks for furniture projects, as well as accurately forged hinges, forged nails and forged hardware for chests and so forth. There seemed to be interest in do it yourself type kits.

        Anyway Ill start posting pics this week.

        Cheers!
        Drew




      • Thomas von Holthausen
        Good lords and ladies. I had no intention of impugning what others do or how they do it. I was only stating my own interest and desire and seeking instruction
        Message 3 of 30 , Nov 10, 2010
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          Good lords and ladies.
          I had no intention of impugning what others do or how they do it.
          I was only stating my own interest and desire and seeking instruction on how to carry it out.
          Herr Thomas von Holthausen
          Barony of Three Rivers, Calontir
          

          On 11/10/2010 8:28 AM, julian wilson wrote:
           

          Unto the most noble herr Thomas of Holthausen
          does
          Lord Matthewe Baker
          send  greetings in the brotherhood of courtoisie and chivalry.

          Good my Lord,
           recreational time is our most precious and absolutely irreplaceable resource.
          Unless you are trying to prove a point, there is no reason not use use modern Workshop equipment in making artefacts for SCA Competition.
          Certainly, as far as woodworking is concerned, if you do your "finishing" right, it would take a Lab examination to prove or disprove the use of modern power tools. And I see no reason why you should not use a modern heat source in Blacksmithing work; the metal doesn't care, and what ever you have used will not be evident in your finished artefact.

          The quest for authenticity can go too far, sometimes; - where does one begin one's compromises?
          We cannot, as private persons with limited budgets, - re-create a whole, long-vanished infrastructure.
          Raw timber for example - was it hand-felled? Were the logs hauled from the forest by a horse-drawn timber tug? Was the log split with wedges? Trimmed with adzes? Sawn into plank-stock by hand, by 2 sawyers working around a sawpit?
           Forge fuel? Will you make the forge? Will you make the Smith's tools yourself, by hand, in the medieval manner? Was the charcoal produced in the medieval manner? Or were the coals mined in a medieval  fashion, by hand? How was the metal stock produced? Does it have the same ration of iron to carbon to produce steel of a medieval quality? And so on, and so on.
          I have used salvaged 14th century timber to make a few artefacts, and have used salvaged 14th and 15th century metal to produce various items. Just to prove to myself that I COULD do it.  Using the salvaged materials took me roughly three-times as long as it would have done using modern raw materials - and there was no overt evidence that I'd done so in the finished artefacts. So unless some Museum or rich private Client is paying me, I won't be doing THAT again!
          IMHO, - unless someone  is paying one to make an artefact in a totally medieval fashion from the beginning [in which case one charges "all the traffic will bear"] , - one has to think seriously about saving one's time by using modernly-sourced raw materials, and modern tooling, and then hand-finishing to the best of one's abilities.

          In service to the medieval Dream,
           Matthewe Baker


          --- On Wed, 10/11/10, Thomas von Holthausen <tvh.b3r.calontir@...> wrote:

          From: Thomas von Holthausen <tvh.b3r.calontir@...>
          Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] Hello Folks.
          To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Wednesday, 10 November, 2010, 5:20

           

          Sorry for the long delay.
          First I got a cold, then my wife did, and the laryngitis is hanging on making us miserable and inactive.

          The reason I asked where you were is because I liked your approach to being as period as possible.
          Unfortunately, you are not nearby.
          Fortunately, we visit my in-laws in Alexandria VA at least once a year, but usually during the week of Christmas.

          I am intrigued by many things, but am of the mind that if I am going to do something for an SCA competition I should not be using powered tools or propane fire which seem to be normal for the blacksmiths around here.

          Herr Thomas von Holthausen
          Barony of Three Rivers, Calontir
          

          On 11/6/2010 4:01 PM, D. Young wrote:
           

          Im just outside Washington DC.    Temple Hills, Maryland.


          Drew



          Fine Armour and Historical Reproductions

               Custom Commissions Welcome....!

          www.partsandtechnical.com
          (Well Formed Munitions Catalog Coming This Spring)
           





          To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
          From: tvh.b3r.calontir@...
          Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2010 15:34:19 -0500
          Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] Hello Folks.

           
          Where are you, in mundane geographical terms?

          Herr Thomas von Holthausen
          Barony of Three Rivers, Calontir
          

          On 10/20/2010 8:17 PM, partsandtechnical wrote:
           
          Hi Folks

          My name is Andrew (Drew) Young. Im variously known as PartsandTechnical on the Armour Archive. I see some familiar face--well board names!

          I specialize in museum grade historical reproductions for my clients, but the woodworking and timber framing bug has always been with me, and in the last few years its really been a passion I cant shake.

          Avoiding electrical tools whenever I can, my tools of choice are hand saws, handplanes, drawknives, chisels, mallets etc.

          Most of my lumber if freshly felled, thus green. Ive been splitting my logs for the sake of quartered wood in many cases when its needed.

          Making woodworking tools and collecting antiques is also a hobby. Ive now forged a few specialized axes for carpentry and timber framing. My period tools include numerous original medieval axes, the oldest of which is 13th century. Another dates to around 1450, and two new ones date to approximately the 14th/15th century and 17th century.

          I also have a growing collection of original antique furniture from the mid 15th century, the Elizabethan 16th century and a newly acquired 17th century joined coffer. Other pieces include three coffer panels and a 17th century chair top...one of my favorites. I own several original branch-wrapped hoops (pre 1800) and a 16th or 17th century butter churn, again with branch-wrapped hoops.

          I will post pictures of all these pieces. Please feel free to ask me any questions about my collection. Im happy to provide info or pics. Oh in a few months, I will also be offering a line of quartered, hewn and planed planks for furniture projects, as well as accurately forged hinges, forged nails and forged hardware for chests and so forth. There seemed to be interest in do it yourself type kits.

          Anyway Ill start posting pics this week.

          Cheers!
          Drew



        • Thomas von Holthausen
          There is also the factor that before one knows that one is going to do a lot of a particular craft, such as woodworking, it is a lot cheaper to buy several
          Message 4 of 30 , Nov 10, 2010
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            There is also the factor that before one knows that one is going to do a lot of a particular craft, such as woodworking, it is a lot cheaper to buy several hand tools than one bench type power tool.
            Herr Thomas von Holthausen
            Barony of Three Rivers, Calontir
            

            On 11/10/2010 8:43 AM, D. Young wrote:
             


            Truth be told though, sometimes hand tools produce a faster job than power tools.   Thats one of the reasons I use them.

            By the time I prep my machine planer or sanders....I could have planed a couple feet of boards already if its only a few millimeters.

            But your right that we have to be reasonable.  A drilled hole can be made with a hand brace or an electric drill with very little difference....and once filled, screwed, plugged...none is the wiser.






            Fine Armour and Historical Reproductions

                 Custom Commissions Welcome....!

            www.partsandtechnical.com
            (Well Formed Munitions Catalog Coming This Spring)
             





            To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
            From: mcnutt@...
            Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 09:06:55 -0500
            Subject: RE: [MedievalSawdust] Hello Folks.

             

            Speaking as a Laurel, it’s always better to pursue an approach that’s as medieval as possible, but speaking as a judge, I realize that people have lives, and everyone has to choose their compromises.  If you can and have documented the medieval practice, and noted where you deviated and why, you will score only SLIGHTLY lower than a purist would in my categories.

             

            For example:

            “In this illumination, a Venetian scribe would most likely have used cobalt blue.  That stuff is so toxic that I don’t dare have it in my house, so I have substituted a modern pigment.”

            “The leather these widgets are made of came from a critter that is now extinct, so I’ve substituted a modern leather.”

            “Gold costs it’s weight in, well, gold, and I can’t afford it, so I’m using this artificial substitute.”

             

            More germane to this group:

            “In 16th century Germany, a master joiner would have had journeymen and apprentices under him to process these boards to proper thickness with an adze, saw, scrub plane, and then smoothing plane.  Lacking this manpower, I have substituted a power planer to save time, as I only have three hours a week to work in my shop.”

             

            A propane fire can be lit and is ready NOW, rather than in 15 – 20 minutes, like charcoal, or a half-hour like coal.  At least at MY forge.  Some people build fires faster than others.

             

            So while I admire, applaud, and yes, score higher, people who can go all the way from sheep to shawl without modern assistance, I try to be realistic.

             

            After all, if you’re trying to do it perfectly, you have to give up artificial light in your shop, and work by oil lamp, or only during the daylight.

             

            Master William

             

            From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com [mailto:medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Thomas von Holthausen

            I am intrigued by many things, but am of the mind that if I am going to do something for an SCA competition I should not be using powered tools or propane fire which seem to be normal for the blacksmiths around here.

            Herr Thomas von Holthausen
            Barony of Three Rivers, Calontir

          • D. Young
            Right on brother! I check out ebay constantly. Also craigslist. Ive scored 6 hand planes for 20 bucks. Another time I got 4 drawknives for 8 dollars
            Message 5 of 30 , Nov 10, 2010
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              Right on brother!    I check out ebay constantly.   Also craigslist. 

              Ive scored 6 hand planes for 20 bucks.    Another time I got 4 drawknives for 8 dollars and shipping. 





              Fine Armour and Historical Reproductions

                   Custom Commissions Welcome....!

              www.partsandtechnical.com
              (Well Formed Munitions Catalog Coming This Spring)
               





              To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
              From: tvh.b3r.calontir@...
              Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 10:55:49 -0600
              Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] Hello Folks.

               
              There is also the factor that before one knows that one is going to do a lot of a particular craft, such as woodworking, it is a lot cheaper to buy several hand tools than one bench type power tool.

              Herr Thomas von Holthausen
              Barony of Three Rivers, Calontir

              On 11/10/2010 8:43 AM, D. Young wrote:
               

              Truth be told though, sometimes hand tools produce a faster job than power tools.   Thats one of the reasons I use them.

              By the time I prep my machine planer or sanders....I could have planed a couple feet of boards already if its only a few millimeters.

              But your right that we have to be reasonable.  A drilled hole can be made with a hand brace or an electric drill with very little difference....and once filled, screwed, plugged...none is the wiser.







              Fine Armour and Historical Reproductions

                   Custom Commissions Welcome....!

              www.partsandtechnical.com
              (Well Formed Munitions Catalog Coming This Spring)
               





              To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
              From: mcnutt@...
              Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 09:06:55 -0500
              Subject: RE: [MedievalSawdust] Hello Folks.

               

              Speaking as a Laurel, it’s always better to pursue an approach that’s as medieval as possible, but speaking as a judge, I realize that people have lives, and everyone has to choose their compromises.  If you can and have documented the medieval practice, and noted where you deviated and why, you will score only SLIGHTLY lower than a purist would in my categories.

               

              For example:

              “In this illumination, a Venetian scribe would most likely have used cobalt blue.  That stuff is so toxic that I don’t dare have it in my house, so I have substituted a modern pigment.”

              “The leather these widgets are made of came from a critter that is now extinct, so I’ve substituted a modern leather.”

              “Gold costs it’s weight in, well, gold, and I can’t afford it, so I’m using this artificial substitute.”

               

              More germane to this group:

              “In 16th century Germany, a master joiner would have had journeymen and apprentices under him to process these boards to proper thickness with an adze, saw, scrub plane, and then smoothing plane.  Lacking this manpower, I have substituted a power planer to save time, as I only have three hours a week to work in my shop.”

               

              A propane fire can be lit and is ready NOW, rather than in 15 – 20 minutes, like charcoal, or a half-hour like coal.  At least at MY forge.  Some people build fires faster than others.

               

              So while I admire, applaud, and yes, score higher, people who can go all the way from sheep to shawl without modern assistance, I try to be realistic.

               

              After all, if you’re trying to do it perfectly, you have to give up artificial light in your shop, and work by oil lamp, or only during the daylight.

               

              Master William

               

              From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com [mailto:medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Thomas von Holthausen

              I am intrigued by many things, but am of the mind that if I am going to do something for an SCA competition I should not be using powered tools or propane fire which seem to be normal for the blacksmiths around here.

              Herr Thomas von Holthausen
              Barony of Three Rivers, Calontir


            • Siegfried
              ... I would disagree with that. From the groups own homepage: A group for the discussion of Medieval woodworking techniques and for display of pictures,
              Message 6 of 30 , Nov 10, 2010
              • 0 Attachment
                On 11/10/10 11:13 AM, D. Young wrote:
                > And correct me if Im mistaken....but isnt the point of this group to
                > push the envelope in terms of authenticity?

                I would disagree with that.

                From the groups own homepage:
                "
                A group for the discussion of Medieval woodworking techniques and for
                display of pictures, drawings, articles and photos of ideas or resources.

                Items that aren't strictly medieval but fit into the re-creationist
                context are also welcome.
                "

                To me, this means that this group is open to anyone of any
                'medieval-ish' background, and to discuss anything woodworking that
                happens to relate to re-creationism.

                Whether that's masterwork pieces performed completely with handtools.
                Or discussions on quick/efficient ways to churn out camp-chairs or
                camp-boxes with plywood, slots, and screws.

                Each end of the discussion, has it's place.

                Siegfried - Who does both sides of the spectrum


                --
                Barun Siegfried Sebastian Faust - Barony of Highland Foorde - Atlantia
                http://hf.atlantia.sca.org/ - http://crossbows.biz/ - http://eliw.com/
              • Bill McNutt
                I didn’t see anything else. I don’t know than anyone felt impugned. I know I didn’t. I thought we were just discussion philosophy and approach. Will
                Message 7 of 30 , Nov 10, 2010
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                  I didn’t see anything else.  I don’t know than anyone felt impugned.  I know I didn’t.  I thought we were just discussion philosophy and approach.

                   

                  Will

                   

                  From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com [mailto:medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Thomas von Holthausen
                  Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 11:52 AM
                  To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] Hello Folks.

                   

                   

                  Good lords and ladies.
                  I had no intention of impugning what others do or how they do it.
                  I was only stating my own interest and desire and seeking instruction on how to carry it out.

                  Herr Thomas von Holthausen
                  Barony of Three Rivers, Calontir


                  On 11/10/2010 8:28 AM, julian wilson wrote:

                   

                  Unto the most noble herr Thomas of Holthausen
                  does
                  Lord Matthewe Baker
                  send  greetings in the brotherhood of courtoisie and chivalry.

                  Good my Lord,
                   recreational time is our most precious and absolutely irreplaceable resource.
                  Unless you are trying to prove a point, there is no reason not use use modern Workshop equipment in making artefacts for SCA Competition.
                  Certainly, as far as woodworking is concerned, if you do your "finishing" right, it would take a Lab examination to prove or disprove the use of modern power tools. And I see no reason why you should not use a modern heat source in Blacksmithing work; the metal doesn't care, and what ever you have used will not be evident in your finished artefact.

                  The quest for authenticity can go too far, sometimes; - where does one begin one's compromises?
                  We cannot, as private persons with limited budgets, - re-create a whole, long-vanished infrastructure.
                  Raw timber for example - was it hand-felled? Were the logs hauled from the forest by a horse-drawn timber tug? Was the log split with wedges? Trimmed with adzes? Sawn into plank-stock by hand, by 2 sawyers working around a sawpit?
                   Forge fuel? Will you make the forge? Will you make the Smith's tools yourself, by hand, in the medieval manner? Was the charcoal produced in the medieval manner? Or were the coals mined in a medieval  fashion, by hand? How was the metal stock produced? Does it have the same ration of iron to carbon to produce steel of a medieval quality? And so on, and so on.
                  I have used salvaged 14th century timber to make a few artefacts, and have used salvaged 14th and 15th century metal to produce various items. Just to prove to myself that I COULD do it.  Using the salvaged materials took me roughly three-times as long as it would have done using modern raw materials - and there was no overt evidence that I'd done so in the finished artefacts. So unless some Museum or rich private Client is paying me, I won't be doing THAT again!
                  IMHO, - unless someone  is paying one to make an artefact in a totally medieval fashion from the beginning [in which case one charges "all the traffic will bear"] , - one has to think seriously about saving one's time by using modernly-sourced raw materials, and modern tooling, and then hand-finishing to the best of one's abilities.

                  In service to the medieval Dream,
                   Matthewe Baker


                  --- On Wed, 10/11/10, Thomas von Holthausen <tvh.b3r.calontir@...> wrote:


                  From: Thomas von Holthausen <tvh.b3r.calontir@...>
                  Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] Hello Folks.
                  To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Wednesday, 10 November, 2010, 5:20

                   

                  Sorry for the long delay.
                  First I got a cold, then my wife did, and the laryngitis is hanging on making us miserable and inactive.

                  The reason I asked where you were is because I liked your approach to being as period as possible.
                  Unfortunately, you are not nearby.
                  Fortunately, we visit my in-laws in Alexandria VA at least once a year, but usually during the week of Christmas.

                  I am intrigued by many things, but am of the mind that if I am going to do something for an SCA competition I should not be using powered tools or propane fire which seem to be normal for the blacksmiths around here.

                  Herr Thomas von Holthausen
                  Barony of Three Rivers, Calontir


                  On 11/6/2010 4:01 PM, D. Young wrote:

                   

                  Im just outside Washington DC.    Temple Hills, Maryland.


                  Drew


                   

                  Fine Armour and Historical Reproductions

                       Custom Commissions Welcome....!

                  www.partsandtechnical.com
                  (Well Formed Munitions Catalog Coming This Spring)

                   




                  To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                  From: tvh.b3r.calontir@...
                  Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2010 15:34:19 -0500
                  Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] Hello Folks.

                   

                  Where are you, in mundane geographical terms?

                  Herr Thomas von Holthausen
                  Barony of Three Rivers, Calontir


                  On 10/20/2010 8:17 PM, partsandtechnical wrote:

                   

                  Hi Folks

                  My name is Andrew (Drew) Young. Im variously known as PartsandTechnical on the Armour Archive. I see some familiar face--well board names!

                  I specialize in museum grade historical reproductions for my clients, but the woodworking and timber framing bug has always been with me, and in the last few years its really been a passion I cant shake.

                  Avoiding electrical tools whenever I can, my tools of choice are hand saws, handplanes, drawknives, chisels, mallets etc.

                  Most of my lumber if freshly felled, thus green. Ive been splitting my logs for the sake of quartered wood in many cases when its needed.

                  Making woodworking tools and collecting antiques is also a hobby. Ive now forged a few specialized axes for carpentry and timber framing. My period tools include numerous original medieval axes, the oldest of which is 13th century. Another dates to around 1450, and two new ones date to approximately the 14th/15th century and 17th century.

                  I also have a growing collection of original antique furniture from the mid 15th century, the Elizabethan 16th century and a newly acquired 17th century joined coffer. Other pieces include three coffer panels and a 17th century chair top...one of my favorites. I own several original branch-wrapped hoops (pre 1800) and a 16th or 17th century butter churn, again with branch-wrapped hoops.

                  I will post pictures of all these pieces. Please feel free to ask me any questions about my collection. Im happy to provide info or pics. Oh in a few months, I will also be offering a line of quartered, hewn and planed planks for furniture projects, as well as accurately forged hinges, forged nails and forged hardware for chests and so forth. There seemed to be interest in do it yourself type kits.

                  Anyway Ill start posting pics this week.

                  Cheers!
                  Drew

                • D. Young
                  My point is that if we dont push the envelope....than what exactly is medievalish? I mean, we could settle for styrofoam chests painted brown and call it a
                  Message 8 of 30 , Nov 10, 2010
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                    My point is that if we dont push the envelope....than what exactly is medievalish?

                    I mean, we could settle for styrofoam chests painted brown and call it a day. 

                    In other words, as authenticity is pushed, we then realize what medieval really means....and thus medievalish is pushed along with it.

                    All this reminds me of the scadian clothing about 20 years ago.   The bar kept being lifted which helps reconcile the concept of a medieval event.



                    So Im saying the bar should be lifted .....each time it is, those things which still  fall short are ~still~ better than brown painted styrofoam chests.







                    Fine Armour and Historical Reproductions

                         Custom Commissions Welcome....!

                    www.partsandtechnical.com
                    (Well Formed Munitions Catalog Coming This Spring)
                     




                    > To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                    > From: siegfried@...
                    > Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 12:37:44 -0500
                    > Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] Hello Folks.
                    >
                    > On 11/10/10 11:13 AM, D. Young wrote:
                    > > And correct me if Im mistaken....but isnt the point of this group to
                    > > push the envelope in terms of authenticity?
                    >
                    > I would disagree with that.
                    >
                    > From the groups own homepage:
                    > "
                    > A group for the discussion of Medieval woodworking techniques and for
                    > display of pictures, drawings, articles and photos of ideas or resources.
                    >
                    > Items that aren't strictly medieval but fit into the re-creationist
                    > context are also welcome.
                    > "
                    >
                    > To me, this means that this group is open to anyone of any
                    > 'medieval-ish' background, and to discuss anything woodworking that
                    > happens to relate to re-creationism.
                    >
                    > Whether that's masterwork pieces performed completely with handtools.
                    > Or discussions on quick/efficient ways to churn out camp-chairs or
                    > camp-boxes with plywood, slots, and screws.
                    >
                    > Each end of the discussion, has it's place.
                    >
                    > Siegfried - Who does both sides of the spectrum
                    >
                    >
                    > --
                    > Barun Siegfried Sebastian Faust - Barony of Highland Foorde - Atlantia
                    > http://hf.atlantia.sca.org/ - http://crossbows.biz/ - http://eliw.com/
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------
                    >
                    > <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/medievalsawdust/Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    > <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/medievalsawdust/
                    >
                    > <*> Your email settings:
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                    >
                    > <*> To change settings online go to:
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                    >
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                    >
                  • conradh@efn.org
                    ...
                    Message 9 of 30 , Nov 11, 2010
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                      > On 11/10/10 11:13 AM, D. Young wrote:
                      >
                      >> And correct me if Im mistaken....but isnt the point of this group to
                      >> push the envelope in terms of authenticity?

                      > On Wed, November 10, 2010 9:37 am, Siegfried wrote:
                      > I would disagree with that.
                      >
                      <statement of group's purpose snipped>
                      >
                      > To me, this means that this group is open to anyone of any
                      > 'medieval-ish' background, and to discuss anything woodworking that
                      > happens to relate to re-creationism.
                      >
                      > Whether that's masterwork pieces performed completely with handtools.
                      > Or discussions on quick/efficient ways to churn out camp-chairs or
                      > camp-boxes with plywood, slots, and screws.
                      >
                      > Each end of the discussion, has it's place.
                      >
                      Actually I think you're both right. The group is broad enough to cover
                      all sorts of woodworking, and ought to be. Which means that tips and
                      techniques can cover the whole spectrum and be of interest to a fair
                      percentage of readers either way.

                      _Personally_, my own SCA interests are turning more and more toward
                      authentic methods of work and camping. This is not for appearance's sake,
                      as it seems to be for so many of the 'Nazis' who give authenticity a bad
                      name. In my case, it's a personal drive to better understand what it was
                      really like to live and work back then. Power tools and propane anything
                      contribute very little to this, so I'm gradually raising my standards as I
                      learn new things.

                      I am _not_ here to sneer at someone who, say, uses power tools to make a
                      six-board chest. (And if someone comes up with a way to do chip carving
                      on a table saw, I would be fascinated to read about it!) But from my
                      seemingly rare point of view, I'm not interested in hiding a cooler with
                      either handmade or machine-made boxes. What I've done is learn how to eat
                      well for a weekend, or a week, without refrigeration. It's not difficult
                      at all, if you enjoy camp cookery, and unlike the cooler-hiding, gives one
                      more small insight into the constraints (and sometimes advantages!) of our
                      ancestors' lives.


                      In passing, though I use lump charcoal in my attempts at demonstrating
                      period blacksmithing in my booth, the use of coal can be documented at
                      least as far back as 1377. The severe deforestation of Europe that
                      culminated in that century (France had a million hectares less forest than
                      it has _today_, frex) put terrible pressures on the price of charcoal.

                      Of course, the source for 1377 suggests that the use of coal may have been
                      a desperate experiment by someone who had not yet learned the tricks. A
                      London smith was brought to court by angry neighbors complaining about the
                      smoke. I can relate to this, as my own first attempts at a coal forge
                      were untutored except by a book that turned out to be not the best. I
                      filled our entire street with choking smoke. You literally could not see
                      the house across from ours. Then I heard the sirens. Whoever called the
                      fire department was being quite reasonable--an actual housefire we had
                      once down the street made less smoke!

                      By 1500 the use of coal as forge fuel was routine in many areas where it
                      was available, such as much of England and Scotland.

                      Ulfhedinn
                    • Siegfried
                      ... Well said. In my case, I go back and forth depending on what I m making. Sometimes I m making a medieval replica crossbow, and so it s lots of hand work
                      Message 10 of 30 , Nov 11, 2010
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                        > Actually I think you're both right. The group is broad enough to cover
                        > all sorts of woodworking, and ought to be.

                        Well said. In my case, I go back and forth depending on what I'm making.

                        Sometimes I'm making a medieval replica crossbow, and so it's lots of
                        hand work (after rough power work) to get it exactly how I want it to look.

                        Sometimes I'm making a munition combat crossbow. Where the idea is to
                        create something that is period in appearance, but quickly churned out
                        for efficiency/cost.

                        Right now, a big focus that I have is an attempt for myself, and others,
                        to generate lots of quick/inexpensive camp-equipment that can replace
                        plastic tables, rubbermaid totes, and coleman chairs.

                        Once those are created/replaced in as quick of a timeframe as possible.
                        Focus will shift back to making 'awesome truly period works of art'
                        versions of same :)

                        It's a spectrum I swing back-n-forth on, depending upon the task at
                        hand. And I like doing that myself :)

                        But I have great respect for the hand-made works of art :)

                        Siegfried



                        --
                        Barun Siegfried Sebastian Faust - Barony of Highland Foorde - Atlantia
                        http://hf.atlantia.sca.org/ - http://crossbows.biz/ - http://eliw.com/
                      • conradh@efn.org
                        ... To say nothing of the much greater strength of handmade dowels, at least if you rive them instead of ripsawing. I was breaking up some old machined dowels
                        Message 11 of 30 , Nov 11, 2010
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                          On Wed, November 10, 2010 8:13 am, D. Young wrote:
                          >


                          > And there is a natural fear of using hand tools because people think they
                          > are too hard to master. This is not true. After a few hours with a
                          > drawknife or hand plane, one gets the idea pretty quickly. Same is true
                          > with chisels.
                          >
                          > And then there are things like machined dowels----worst idea ever!
                          > Machine dowels are too perfect, which often results in a looser fit.
                          > Hand made dowels take a few minutes to make but produce a tighter fit
                          > because they are not as round.
                          >
                          To say nothing of the much greater strength of handmade dowels, at least
                          if you rive them instead of ripsawing. I was breaking up some old
                          machined dowels just the other day (for firewood) and was appalled at the
                          way they broke. Some of the grain was running 30-40 degrees off the axis
                          of the dowel! The shear strength you expect, and need, in a doweled joint
                          just isn't going to be there.

                          There is a tendency to think that anything modern has to be better, and
                          certainly faster, than the old stuff. We need to get beyond the
                          self-congratulatory bullshit and realize that occasionally the old ways
                          were _faster_ than modern. And materials prepared in the old way were
                          routinely better quality. And especially that a hand-tool shop can often
                          be set up for less money, simply because it's easier to scrounge or make
                          the tools.

                          Ulfhedinn
                        • jay sabath
                          Bill, Thanks for the link. please check out http://www.marhamchurchantiques.com/ They usually have several photos from each item as well as a good description.
                          Message 12 of 30 , Nov 12, 2010
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                            Bill,

                            Thanks for the link. 

                            please check out
                            http://www.marhamchurchantiques.com/
                            They usually have several photos from each item as well as a good description.


                            Lord Johannes Machiavelli
                            Canton of Rokkehealden
                            Barony of Ayreton
                            Kingdom of the Middle

                            On Wed, Nov 10, 2010 at 10:36 AM, Bill McNutt <mcnutt@...> wrote:
                             

                            My favorite online antiques site is Huntington Antiques, in the south of England.

                            http://www.huntington-antiques.com/products.php?type=1

                             

                             




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