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Medieval carpentry

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  • Beth and Bob Matney
    Suggestions please! I am looking for references on building techniques, joinery, etc. used in Western Europe (Great Britain preferred) from 1000 to 1200AD,
    Message 1 of 12 , Sep 16, 2010
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      Suggestions please!

      I am looking for references on building
      techniques, joinery, etc. used in Western Europe
      (Great Britain preferred) from 1000 to 1200AD,
      specifically for a home/shop of a successful
      artisan built in early half-timber with
      wattle&daub infill (not in
      stone/brick). Archeology reports of such a
      building and/or plans for such a structure that
      actually existed would be ideal. I currently know
      of no such surviving structures. References to
      more appropriate elists are most welcome.

      Books that I currently have:
      Brunskill, R. W. Timber Building in Britain.
      London: Gollancz, 1999. ISBN: 0575067357

      Brunskill, R. W. Traditional Buildings of
      Britain: An Introduction to Vernacular
      Architecture. London: Gollancz in association
      with P. Crawley, 1993. ISBN: 0575052996

      Charles, F. W. B. The great barn of Bredon : its
      fire and rebuilding. 1997 ISBN 1900188279

      Cressing Conference, D. F. Stenning, and D. D.
      Andrews. Regional Variation in Timber-Framed
      Building in England and Wales Down to 1550: The
      Proceedings of the 1994 Cressing Conference.
      Chelmsford: Essex County Council, 2002. ISBN: 1852811722

      Épaud, Frédéric. De la charpente romane à la
      charpente gothique en Normandie : évolution des
      techniques et des structures de charpenterie du
      XIIe au XIIIe siècles. 2007. ISBN 9782902685394

      Hewett, Cecil Alec. English historic carpentry. 1980. ISBN 0850333547

      Lindgren, Uta. Europäische Technik im Mittelalter
      800-1400. 1996 ISBN 3786117489

      McGrail, Sean. Woodworking Techniques Before A.D.1500. 1982. ISBN 0860541592

      Milne, Gustav, Timber building techniques in
      London, c.900-1400 : an archaeological study of
      waterfront installations and related material. 1992 ISBN 0903290413

      Morris, Carole A. Wood & Woodworking in Ang-Scan
      & Medieval York: Craft, Industry and Everyday Life. 2003. ISBN 1902771109

      Sykes, Christopher Simon. Ancient English Houses,
      1240-1612. London: Chatto & Windus, 1989. ISBN: 0701134895

      Wallace, Patrick F. The Viking Age buildings of Dublin. 1992

      Thanks.
      Beth Matney
    • erik_mage
      The dark ages nothing much survived. (sounds spooky) books and records came back from the east to rebuild europe that is why we have arches in the rienesance.
      Message 2 of 12 , Sep 21, 2010
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        The dark ages nothing much survived. (sounds spooky) books and records came back from the east to rebuild europe that is why we have arches in the rienesance. A rather indian/ turkish feel.
        However some one must have a book on antiques from this era. Not everything was burned to stop the plague.
        Seems to me that mortis and tendon preceads the birth of christ.
        dovetail in a rudimentery form would also be included.
        Not so likely blind dovetails.
        rabbet joints with dowels are still in use today to fake antiques found in the middle east.
        I don't think mitered joints where very common due to the waste of material and the difficulty in performing them well.
        Chinese puzzel boxes have been around for a very long time.
        You can safely use mortise and tendon with wood pins. That much I am sure of.
        One tricky type of joint is a locking tendon. Commonly used in amish furniture. Uses no screws or nails. Concidering that you are not going back to the stone age I would be willing to asume that this type of joint would have been invented .
        Ships would be a great place to find about joints. they where the essance of technology of thier time. Rabbets . scarf joints, mortise and tendon. knee joints breast joints, lap strake, double planking,
        I doubt anything I've said will help ... But who Knows maybe it did.
        ERIK

        --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, Beth and Bob Matney <bmatney@...> wrote:
        >
        > Suggestions please!
        >
        > I am looking for references on building
        > techniques, joinery, etc. used in Western Europe
        > (Great Britain preferred) from 1000 to 1200AD,
        > specifically for a home/shop of a successful
        > artisan built in early half-timber with
        > wattle&daub infill (not in
        > stone/brick). Archeology reports of such a
        > building and/or plans for such a structure that
        > actually existed would be ideal. I currently know
        > of no such surviving structures. References to
        > more appropriate elists are most welcome.
        >
        > Books that I currently have:
        > Brunskill, R. W. Timber Building in Britain.
        > London: Gollancz, 1999. ISBN: 0575067357
        >
        > Brunskill, R. W. Traditional Buildings of
        > Britain: An Introduction to Vernacular
        > Architecture. London: Gollancz in association
        > with P. Crawley, 1993. ISBN: 0575052996
        >
        > Charles, F. W. B. The great barn of Bredon : its
        > fire and rebuilding. 1997 ISBN 1900188279
        >
        > Cressing Conference, D. F. Stenning, and D. D.
        > Andrews. Regional Variation in Timber-Framed
        > Building in England and Wales Down to 1550: The
        > Proceedings of the 1994 Cressing Conference.
        > Chelmsford: Essex County Council, 2002. ISBN: 1852811722
        >
        > Épaud, Frédéric. De la charpente romane à la
        > charpente gothique en Normandie : évolution des
        > techniques et des structures de charpenterie du
        > XIIe au XIIIe siècles. 2007. ISBN 9782902685394
        >
        > Hewett, Cecil Alec. English historic carpentry. 1980. ISBN 0850333547
        >
        > Lindgren, Uta. Europäische Technik im Mittelalter
        > 800-1400. 1996 ISBN 3786117489
        >
        > McGrail, Sean. Woodworking Techniques Before A.D.1500. 1982. ISBN 0860541592
        >
        > Milne, Gustav, Timber building techniques in
        > London, c.900-1400 : an archaeological study of
        > waterfront installations and related material. 1992 ISBN 0903290413
        >
        > Morris, Carole A. Wood & Woodworking in Ang-Scan
        > & Medieval York: Craft, Industry and Everyday Life. 2003. ISBN 1902771109
        >
        > Sykes, Christopher Simon. Ancient English Houses,
        > 1240-1612. London: Chatto & Windus, 1989. ISBN: 0701134895
        >
        > Wallace, Patrick F. The Viking Age buildings of Dublin. 1992
        >
        > Thanks.
        > Beth Matney
        >
      • Beth and Bob Matney
        Thanks Erik. Since my original request, I have found a few reputable sites and papers of interest on early English structures online, and some additional book
        Message 3 of 12 , Sep 22, 2010
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          Thanks Erik.

          Since my original request, I have found a few reputable sites and
          papers of interest on early English structures online, and some
          additional book titles to acquire.

          Walker's article (from Vernacular Architecture, near bottom of this
          email) is particularly useful. What I am thinking of is a 3 bay
          aisled hall, possibly similar to Westwick Cottage, St Michael,
          Hertfordshire (1184-1219)... see part 3 for details.

          Now to track down some very detailed reports and plans of these structures...

          Beth

          Bibliography of the Vernacular Architecture Group
          http://ads.ahds.ac.uk/catalogue/library/vagbiblio/index.cfm

          Currie, C.R.J., The age of carpentry: the new art and society in
          Plantagenet England. Text of a lecture given to the London Society
          for Medieval Studies in March 1989.
          http://history.eserver.org/medieval-carpentry.txt
          2001 (illustrated) http://historicaltextarchive.com/currie/indexold.html
          "stress the importance of the 12th-century fashion for aisled halls
          in the development of the English bay system"

          The Archaeology of Historic Timber-framed Buildings by Richard Harris
          http://www.buildingconservation.com/articles/timberframedbuildings/timberframedbuildings.htm
          Infill Panels by Geoff Broster and Carol Thickins
          http://www.buildingconservation.com/articles/infillpanels/infillpanels.htm
          Timber Framed Buildings and Roofs by Paul Russell
          http://www.buildingconservation.com/articles/timber/wood93.htm
          Dyer, Christopher. "History and Vernacular Architecture" Vernacular
          Architecture 28 (1997), 1-8. http://www.vag.org.uk/VAarticles/history.htm

          British Medieval Architecture
          http://www.medievalarchitecture.net/Buildings_archaeology.html

          Structural Carpentry in Medieval Essex By CECIL A. HEWETT (32 p. - 2.17 MB)
          http://ads.ahds.ac.uk/catalogue/adsdata/arch-769-1/ahds/dissemination/pdf/vol06-07/6_240_271.pdf


          Vernacular Architecture
          http://www.vag.org.uk/publications.htm
          'Late 12th and early 13th century aisled buildings: a comparison' by
          John Walker, VA 30 (1999), 21-53 (an important paper discussing many
          of the earliest timber-framed buildings that survive in England).
          Part 1: General Discussion
          http://www.vag.org.uk/VAarticles/earlyaisledbuildings.htm
          Part 2: Details http://www.vag.org.uk/VAarticles/earlyaisledbuildings2.htm
          Part 3 3: More details and
          Bibliography http://www.vag.org.uk/VAarticles/earlyaisledbuildings3.htm

          The History and Construction of Medieval Timber-Framed Houses in
          England and Wales
          http://www.today.plus.com/houses/

          Wattle and Daub: Craft, Conservation and Wiltshire Case Study
          http://www.tonygraham.co.uk/house_repair/wattle_daub/WD.html
        • Julian Wilson
          Beth, I haven t been following your posts on this, and obviously not seen the replies you ve had -but if no one who has respoinded has directed you to Regia
          Message 4 of 12 , Sep 22, 2010
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            Beth, I haven't been following your posts on this, and obviously not seen the replies you've had -but if no one who has respoinded has directed you to Regia Anglorum, - here's the URL to the website describing their Wychurst Project to construct a late-Anglo-Saxon Manorial Burgh, - and the long-hall is wind and weather-tight now, having started construction - by volunteer members - in 2001.
            <http://wychurst.regia.org/index.html>
            Maybe Regia Anglorum will share some of their pre-construction research with you? I know that they have a US-based Branch, who might be easier for you to contact.
            Another Group who now have over 40 years of experience in salvaging and re-erecting very early structures are the Trust who run the Weald & Downland Museumn. just north of Chichester, West Sussex, hard by the village of Singleton.
            Here's the URL for the wkipedia entry
             <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weald_and_Downland_Open_Air_Museum>
            and here is the URL for the Trust's own website
            <http://www.wealddown.co.uk/>
            I would think that - between the 2 orgainsation, you'll be able to gather enough constructional details to be fairly sure of what you need; - since I can tell you as a professional woodworker in the House Construction Industry, [with a speciality in reconstruction and refurbishment of historic buildings] , and a lifelong amateur historian specialising in the medieval period - that construction techniques change very slowly, if at all - during the mid-medieval-period in Western Europe.

            In Service to the medieval Dream,
             Lord Matthewe Baker,
            SCA Kingdom of Drachenwald.



            --- On Wed, 22/9/10, Beth and Bob Matney <bmatney@...> wrote:

            From: Beth and Bob Matney <bmatney@...>
            Subject: [MedievalSawdust] Re: Medieval carpentry
            To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Wednesday, 22 September, 2010, 14:45

             

            Thanks Erik.

            Since my original request, I have found a few reputable sites and
            papers of interest on early English structures online, and some
            additional book titles to acquire.

            Walker's article (from Vernacular Architecture, near bottom of this
            email) is particularly useful. What I am thinking of is a 3 bay
            aisled hall, possibly similar to Westwick Cottage, St Michael,
            Hertfordshire (1184-1219)... see part 3 for details.

            Now to track down some very detailed reports and plans of these structures...

            Beth

            Bibliography of the Vernacular Architecture Group
            http://ads.ahds.ac.uk/catalogue/library/vagbiblio/index.cfm

            Currie, C.R.J., The age of carpentry: the new art and society in
            Plantagenet England. Text of a lecture given to the London Society
            for Medieval Studies in March 1989.
            http://history.eserver.org/medieval-carpentry.txt
            2001 (illustrated) http://historicaltextarchive.com/currie/indexold.html
            "stress the importance of the 12th-century fashion for aisled halls
            in the development of the English bay system"

            The Archaeology of Historic Timber-framed Buildings by Richard Harris
            http://www.buildingconservation.com/articles/timberframedbuildings/timberframedbuildings.htm
            Infill Panels by Geoff Broster and Carol Thickins
            http://www.buildingconservation.com/articles/infillpanels/infillpanels.htm
            Timber Framed Buildings and Roofs by Paul Russell
            http://www.buildingconservation.com/articles/timber/wood93.htm
            Dyer, Christopher. "History and Vernacular Architecture" Vernacular
            Architecture 28 (1997), 1-8. http://www.vag.org.uk/VAarticles/history.htm

            British Medieval Architecture
            http://www.medievalarchitecture.net/Buildings_archaeology.html

            Structural Carpentry in Medieval Essex By CECIL A. HEWETT (32 p. - 2.17 MB)
            http://ads.ahds.ac.uk/catalogue/adsdata/arch-769-1/ahds/dissemination/pdf/vol06-07/6_240_271.pdf

            Vernacular Architecture
            http://www.vag.org.uk/publications.htm
            'Late 12th and early 13th century aisled buildings: a comparison' by
            John Walker, VA 30 (1999), 21-53 (an important paper discussing many
            of the earliest timber-framed buildings that survive in England).
            Part 1: General Discussion
            http://www.vag.org.uk/VAarticles/earlyaisledbuildings.htm
            Part 2: Details http://www.vag.org.uk/VAarticles/earlyaisledbuildings2.htm
            Part 3 3: More details and
            Bibliography http://www.vag.org.uk/VAarticles/earlyaisledbuildings3.htm

            The History and Construction of Medieval Timber-Framed Houses in
            England and Wales
            http://www.today.plus.com/houses/

            Wattle and Daub: Craft, Conservation and Wiltshire Case Study
            http://www.tonygraham.co.uk/house_repair/wattle_daub/WD.html


          • Beth and Bob Matney
            Thank you Julian. I found the Wychurst Project website and hope to visit it when we are in the UK in July for the Medieval Congress in Leeds (also revisit the
            Message 5 of 12 , Sep 22, 2010
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              Thank you Julian. I found the Wychurst Project website and hope to
              visit it when we are in the UK in July for the Medieval Congress in
              Leeds (also revisit the Weald & Downland Museum). We have visited
              many Medieval timber structures on previous trips. Unfortunately,
              none that we have visited were dated pre-14th C. and most were Tudor or later.

              Regards,
              Beth

              At 01:32 PM 9/22/2010, you wrote:
              >Beth, I haven't been following your posts on this, and obviously not
              >seen the replies you've had -but if no one who has respoinded has
              >directed you to Regia Anglorum, - here's the URL to the website
              >describing their Wychurst Project to construct a late-Anglo-Saxon
              >Manorial Burgh, - and the long-hall is wind and weather-tight now,
              >having started construction - by volunteer members - in 2001.
              ><http://wychurst.regia.org/index.html>
              >Maybe Regia Anglorum will share some of their pre-construction
              >research with you? I know that they have a US-based Branch, who
              >might be easier for you to contact.
              >Another Group who now have over 40 years of experience in salvaging
              >and re-erecting very early structures are the Trust who run the
              >Weald & Downland Museumn. just north of Chichester, West Sussex,
              >hard by the village of Singleton.
              >Here's the URL for the wkipedia entry
              > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weald_and_Downland_Open_Air_Museum>
              >and here is the URL for the Trust's own website
              ><http://www.wealddown.co.uk/>
              >I would think that - between the 2 orgainsation, you'll be able to
              >gather enough constructional details to be fairly sure of what you
              >need; - since I can tell you as a professional woodworker in the
              >House Construction Industry, [with a speciality in reconstruction
              >and refurbishment of historic buildings] , and a lifelong amateur
              >historian specialising in the medieval period - that construction
              >techniques change very slowly, if at all - during the
              >mid-medieval-period in Western Europe.
              >
              >In Service to the medieval Dream,
              > Lord Matthewe Baker,
              >SCA Kingdom of Drachenwald.
            • erik_mage
              Looks like you have your home work set out for you. I m sure that timber framing has been unchanged for a thousand years. Some might dissagree, Amish barns are
              Message 6 of 12 , Sep 23, 2010
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                Looks like you have your home work set out for you. I'm sure that timber framing has been unchanged for a thousand years. Some might dissagree, Amish barns are still the same. However when you said joinery that brought up a whole different frame of mind, as in cabinetry.
                It all depends on what you are looking for. Designs /plans or just period type building techniques to use in your own designs.

                ERIK

                --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, Beth and Bob Matney <bmatney@...> wrote:
                >
                > Thanks Erik.
                >
                > Since my original request, I have found a few reputable sites and
                > papers of interest on early English structures online, and some
                > additional book titles to acquire.
                >
                > Walker's article (from Vernacular Architecture, near bottom of this
                > email) is particularly useful. What I am thinking of is a 3 bay
                > aisled hall, possibly similar to Westwick Cottage, St Michael,
                > Hertfordshire (1184-1219)... see part 3 for details.
                >
                > Now to track down some very detailed reports and plans of these structures...
                >
                > Beth
                >
                > Bibliography of the Vernacular Architecture Group
                > http://ads.ahds.ac.uk/catalogue/library/vagbiblio/index.cfm
                >
                > Currie, C.R.J., The age of carpentry: the new art and society in
                > Plantagenet England. Text of a lecture given to the London Society
                > for Medieval Studies in March 1989.
                > http://history.eserver.org/medieval-carpentry.txt
                > 2001 (illustrated) http://historicaltextarchive.com/currie/indexold.html
                > "stress the importance of the 12th-century fashion for aisled halls
                > in the development of the English bay system"
                >
                > The Archaeology of Historic Timber-framed Buildings by Richard Harris
                > http://www.buildingconservation.com/articles/timberframedbuildings/timberframedbuildings.htm
                > Infill Panels by Geoff Broster and Carol Thickins
                > http://www.buildingconservation.com/articles/infillpanels/infillpanels.htm
                > Timber Framed Buildings and Roofs by Paul Russell
                > http://www.buildingconservation.com/articles/timber/wood93.htm
                > Dyer, Christopher. "History and Vernacular Architecture" Vernacular
                > Architecture 28 (1997), 1-8. http://www.vag.org.uk/VAarticles/history.htm
                >
                > British Medieval Architecture
                > http://www.medievalarchitecture.net/Buildings_archaeology.html
                >
                > Structural Carpentry in Medieval Essex By CECIL A. HEWETT (32 p. - 2.17 MB)
                > http://ads.ahds.ac.uk/catalogue/adsdata/arch-769-1/ahds/dissemination/pdf/vol06-07/6_240_271.pdf
                >
                >
                > Vernacular Architecture
                > http://www.vag.org.uk/publications.htm
                > 'Late 12th and early 13th century aisled buildings: a comparison' by
                > John Walker, VA 30 (1999), 21-53 (an important paper discussing many
                > of the earliest timber-framed buildings that survive in England).
                > Part 1: General Discussion
                > http://www.vag.org.uk/VAarticles/earlyaisledbuildings.htm
                > Part 2: Details http://www.vag.org.uk/VAarticles/earlyaisledbuildings2.htm
                > Part 3 3: More details and
                > Bibliography http://www.vag.org.uk/VAarticles/earlyaisledbuildings3.htm
                >
                > The History and Construction of Medieval Timber-Framed Houses in
                > England and Wales
                > http://www.today.plus.com/houses/
                >
                > Wattle and Daub: Craft, Conservation and Wiltshire Case Study
                > http://www.tonygraham.co.uk/house_repair/wattle_daub/WD.html
                >
              • Beth and Bob Matney
                Erik, Actually, timber framing has undergone substantial changes over time and space, hence my questions were limited in time period and geographic scope. I
                Message 7 of 12 , Sep 23, 2010
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                  Erik,

                  Actually, timber framing has undergone substantial changes over time
                  and space, hence my questions were limited in time period and
                  geographic scope. I have visited many timber structures in
                  Scandinavia and the UK & Ireland. Some were surviving structures.
                  Some were archaeological reconstructions. All together, the ones that
                  I have seen span about 1,000 years. What I was looking for were
                  examples of very early box framing (as opposed to earthfast
                  structures), as I had not been able to locate these.

                  My goal is to get enough detail to reconstruct such a structure as
                  closely as possible. What can I say? It's a hobby <wink>

                  Beth

                  At 12:23 PM 9/23/2010, you wrote:
                  >Looks like you have your home work set out for you. I'm sure that
                  >timber framing has been unchanged for a thousand years. Some might
                  >dissagree, Amish barns are still the same. However when you said
                  >joinery that brought up a whole different frame of mind, as in cabinetry.
                  >It all depends on what you are looking for. Designs /plans or just
                  >period type building techniques to use in your own designs.
                  >
                  >ERIK
                  >
                  >--- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, Beth and Bob Matney
                  ><bmatney@...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Thanks Erik.
                  > >
                  > > Since my original request, I have found a few reputable sites and
                  > > papers of interest on early English structures online, and some
                  > > additional book titles to acquire.
                  > >
                  > > Walker's article (from Vernacular Architecture, near bottom of this
                  > > email) is particularly useful. What I am thinking of is a 3 bay
                  > > aisled hall, possibly similar to Westwick Cottage, St Michael,
                  > > Hertfordshire (1184-1219)... see part 3 for details.
                  > >
                  > > Now to track down some very detailed reports and plans of these
                  > structures...
                  > >
                  > > Beth
                • erik_mage
                  Timber framing is not exactly my strong point. Thank you for being gracious. I wouldn t say my experiance about that type of framing is more than 300 years
                  Message 8 of 12 , Sep 26, 2010
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                    Timber framing is not exactly my strong point. Thank you for being gracious. I wouldn't say my experiance about that type of framing is more than 300 years old. Seems very simple in over all design if you limit yourself to only the basic joints. Forgive my ignorance when I say a box is a box. Now I see that you want to be extreamly specific . That requires an actual building from that date to use as an example.
                    Then again, as a matter of debate, Barn structures of any period may not have been built to the same exacting standards of a home, persay.
                    So it might be pertinant that barns of the 1400's might likely be using the same tech. of the 1000's .
                    Likely the barns of the 1000's might not be upto standards of the time?
                    Just a coin of experiance not a whole dollar.
                    The truth is likely that a barn is evry bit as important or more so than a house. Thus being built the same period to period.
                    I think too much about stupid stuff some times.
                    ERIK

                    --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, Beth and Bob Matney <bmatney@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Erik,
                    >
                    > Actually, timber framing has undergone substantial changes over time
                    > and space, hence my questions were limited in time period and
                    > geographic scope. I have visited many timber structures in
                    > Scandinavia and the UK & Ireland. Some were surviving structures.
                    > Some were archaeological reconstructions. All together, the ones that
                    > I have seen span about 1,000 years. What I was looking for were
                    > examples of very early box framing (as opposed to earthfast
                    > structures), as I had not been able to locate these.
                    >
                    > My goal is to get enough detail to reconstruct such a structure as
                    > closely as possible. What can I say? It's a hobby <wink>
                    >
                    > Beth
                    >
                    > At 12:23 PM 9/23/2010, you wrote:
                    > >Looks like you have your home work set out for you. I'm sure that
                    > >timber framing has been unchanged for a thousand years. Some might
                    > >dissagree, Amish barns are still the same. However when you said
                    > >joinery that brought up a whole different frame of mind, as in cabinetry.
                    > >It all depends on what you are looking for. Designs /plans or just
                    > >period type building techniques to use in your own designs.
                    > >
                    > >ERIK
                    > >
                    > >--- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, Beth and Bob Matney
                    > ><bmatney@> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > Thanks Erik.
                    > > >
                    > > > Since my original request, I have found a few reputable sites and
                    > > > papers of interest on early English structures online, and some
                    > > > additional book titles to acquire.
                    > > >
                    > > > Walker's article (from Vernacular Architecture, near bottom of this
                    > > > email) is particularly useful. What I am thinking of is a 3 bay
                    > > > aisled hall, possibly similar to Westwick Cottage, St Michael,
                    > > > Hertfordshire (1184-1219)... see part 3 for details.
                    > > >
                    > > > Now to track down some very detailed reports and plans of these
                    > > structures...
                    > > >
                    > > > Beth
                    >
                  • W. Roberts
                    Please Erik, I beg of you... NOT when I have a mouthful of coffee! :-) And actually, that s not so stupid. I can distinctly remember my cousin (who had a
                    Message 9 of 12 , Sep 26, 2010
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                      Please Erik, I beg of you... NOT when I have a mouthful of coffee! :-)

                      And actually, that's not so stupid. I can distinctly remember my cousin (who had a working ranch) saying something to the effect of "Take care of the horses first, I don't care if that means you pee in your pants!" (except his version was MUCH more colorful!)

                      So when you think about it, the animals were their livihood - quite possibly, even their very survival. It doesn't even take a third-grade education to realize that it would be in their best interests to protect those animals as much as themselves, if not moreso. And if memory serves, I seem to recall houses being built with the barn integral - or has that been disproven? I haven't been keeping up with research the way I should, and SWMBO is coming home from a conference tonight so my attention is more on "house-cleaning" than "house-building".

                      Assuming the integral house/barn combination, then by definition the barn would pretty much be built to the same standards as the house - shoddy barn construction would affect the house, which is Bad Ju-Ju. Assuming the barn was free-standing, wouldn't it make sense that the barn be built to the same standards as the house, with the only difference (if any) being in finish? The barn wouldn't have to "look pretty", it'd just have to work - and quite probably, do so for generations.

                      Okay, enough of my random thoughts. Back to the mopping!

                      Lee

                      --- dragonwyck@... wrote:


                      I think too much about stupid stuff some times.
                      ERIK
                    • lawiser@att.net
                      And if memory serves, I seem to recall houses being built with the barn integral - or has that been disproven? If someone has disproven it, apparently the
                      Message 10 of 12 , Sep 26, 2010
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                        "And if memory serves, I seem to recall houses being built with the barn integral - or has that been disproven?"

                        If someone has "disproven" it, apparently the still existing structures weren't role.

                        "House Hunters International" has had at least one show where a couple looked at a medieval era structure with the house above and "barn" below.

                        Lia

                        Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
                      • conradh@efn.org
                        ... Just in Europe, from Switzerland to Iceland, are examples of A-frame houses with the people on the top floor, the livestock on the bottom. The steep roof
                        Message 11 of 12 , Sep 26, 2010
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                          On Sun, September 26, 2010 10:34 am, W. Roberts wrote:

                          >
                          > So when you think about it, the animals were their livihood - quite
                          > possibly, even their very survival. It doesn't even take a third-grade
                          > education to realize that it would be in their best interests to protect
                          > those animals as much as themselves, if not moreso. And if memory serves,
                          > I seem to recall houses being built with the barn integral - or has that
                          > been disproven? I haven't been keeping up with research the way I should,
                          > and SWMBO is coming home from a conference tonight so my attention is
                          > more on "house-cleaning" than "house-building".
                          >
                          Just in Europe, from Switzerland to Iceland, are examples of A-frame
                          houses with the people on the top floor, the livestock on the bottom. The
                          steep roof sheds the snow loads and reduces leakage, and all the animals'
                          body heat rises to keep the living space warm. Not a bad design for dairy
                          farmers in lands where wood is too scarce for house heat. Also, an
                          incentive to keep the stalls well cleaned....

                          Ulfhedinn
                        • erik_mage
                          I ll go for this one on the A-frame .. heat would rise up to heat the house. The stink might cause the owners to invent Irish Spring Soap? ERIK
                          Message 12 of 12 , Oct 1, 2010
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                            I'll go for this one on the A-frame .. heat would rise up to heat the house. The stink might cause the owners to invent Irish Spring Soap?
                            ERIK

                            --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, lawiser@... wrote:
                            >
                            > "And if memory serves, I seem to recall houses being built with the barn integral - or has that been disproven?"
                            >
                            > If someone has "disproven" it, apparently the still existing structures weren't role.
                            >
                            > "House Hunters International" has had at least one show where a couple looked at a medieval era structure with the house above and "barn" below.
                            >
                            > Lia
                            >
                            > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
                            >
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