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linen fold chest-details

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  • Suzanne Lacey
    New person here- I m in the planning stages on making a linenfold chest. Planning means I ve been to the university library and looked at every scrap of info
    Message 1 of 12 , Sep 7, 2010
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      New person here-

      I'm in the planning stages on making a linenfold chest. Planning means I've been to the university library and looked at every scrap of info there, searched the internet, signed up for the beginning carving class at the local community college (great woodworking program!), and have access to wood that needs to be jointed, faced, and planed before it ever gets to the table saw. I believe the college will have 1/4 sawn northern oak available for sale.

      What I can't tell from my info so far is:
      1) how are the bottoms of these chests made? boards with battens? frame and panel? other?
      2) are the corners frames in 2 directions, that is a square leg with a panel slot in two faces - one front or back and one side?
      3) is there a preference for legs that are also corners and just go to the ground 2-4" past the bottom rail or should I add moulding around the bottom


      Any help is good. Thanks much,

      Suzanne
    • Bill McNutt
      I ve made an extensive study, and I ve seen ALL kinds of bottoms, including one that was nailed on from the bottom. (I suspect that was a 19th century repair,
      Message 2 of 12 , Sep 7, 2010
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        I’ve made an extensive study, and I’ve seen ALL kinds of bottoms, including one that was nailed on from the bottom. (I suspect that was a 19th century repair, though.)


        The most common bottom is frame and panel, just like the front.

         

        Will

         

        From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com [mailto:medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Suzanne Lacey
        Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 9:50 PM
        To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [MedievalSawdust] linen fold chest-details

         

         

        New person here-

         

        I'm in the planning stages on making a linenfold chest. Planning means I've been to the university library and looked at every scrap of info there, searched the internet, signed up for the beginning carving class at the local community college (great woodworking program!), and have access to wood that needs to be jointed, faced, and planed before it ever gets to the table saw. I believe the college will have 1/4 sawn northern oak available for sale.

         

        What I can't tell from my info so far is:

        1) how are the bottoms of these chests made? boards with battens? frame and panel? other?

        2) are the corners frames in 2 directions, that is a square leg with a panel slot in two faces - one front or back and one side?

        3) is there a preference for legs that are also corners and just go to the ground 2-4" past the bottom rail or should I add moulding around the bottom

         

         

        Any help is good. Thanks much,

         

        Suzanne

      • Jeffrey Johnson
        It s hard to see pics of bottoms if panel chests in museum. Got pics, Bill? What I always wonder about linenfold panels is the method of raising the linenfold
        Message 3 of 12 , Sep 7, 2010
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          It's hard to see pics of bottoms if panel chests in museum. Got pics, Bill?

          What I always wonder about linenfold panels is the method of raising the linenfold from the ground. Ya, they can chisel carve it by hand, but that's massively skill-intensive, and the ones I've seen are pretty durned regular in profile to be pure hand-work. They COULD have had a moulding plane, or some sort of hollows and rounds, mayhaps. You've made 'em, Bill... thoughts?

          On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 9:54 PM, Bill McNutt <mcnutt@...> wrote:
           

          I’ve made an extensive study, and I’ve seen ALL kinds of bottoms, including one that was nailed on from the bottom. (I suspect that was a 19th century repair, though.)


          The most common bottom is frame and panel, just like the front.

           

          Will

           

          From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com [mailto:medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Suzanne Lacey
          Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 9:50 PM
          To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [MedievalSawdust] linen fold chest-details

           

           

          New person here-

           

          I'm in the planning stages on making a linenfold chest. Planning means I've been to the university library and looked at every scrap of info there, searched the internet, signed up for the beginning carving class at the local community college (great woodworking program!), and have access to wood that needs to be jointed, faced, and planed before it ever gets to the table saw. I believe the college will have 1/4 sawn northern oak available for sale.

           

          What I can't tell from my info so far is:

          1) how are the bottoms of these chests made? boards with battens? frame and panel? other?

          2) are the corners frames in 2 directions, that is a square leg with a panel slot in two faces - one front or back and one side?

          3) is there a preference for legs that are also corners and just go to the ground 2-4" past the bottom rail or should I add moulding around the bottom

           

           

          Any help is good. Thanks much,

           

          Suzanne


        • Suzanne Lacey
          My sources from the library universally say planes for the center parts: - moulding planes: John Morley, *The History of Furniture Making, twenty-five
          Message 4 of 12 , Sep 7, 2010
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            My sources from the library universally say planes for the center parts:

            - moulding planes: John Morley, The History of Furniture Making, twenty-five centuries of style and design in the western tradition, 1999.
            - moulding planes for the centers, rabbeting plane for the edges: Erich Klatt, Period Furniture Design: Furniture making and cabinet work in the periods of great styles, 1961

            My carving teacher grimaced and said linen folds are tedious and exacting. He also says planes are gouges with training wheels. Planes work for me if I can find the right kind. A TA says he has one.

            Suzanne



            On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 7:24 PM, Jeffrey Johnson <jljonsn@...> wrote:
             

            It's hard to see pics of bottoms if panel chests in museum. Got pics, Bill?

            What I always wonder about linenfold panels is the method of raising the linenfold from the ground. Ya, they can chisel carve it by hand, but that's massively skill-intensive, and the ones I've seen are pretty durned regular in profile to be pure hand-work. They COULD have had a moulding plane, or some sort of hollows and rounds, mayhaps. You've made 'em, Bill... thoughts?



            On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 9:54 PM, Bill McNutt <mcnutt@...> wrote:
             

            I’ve made an extensive study, and I’ve seen ALL kinds of bottoms, including one that was nailed on from the bottom. (I suspect that was a 19th century repair, though.)


            The most common bottom is frame and panel, just like the front.

             

            Will

             

            From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com [mailto:medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Suzanne Lacey
            Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 9:50 PM
            To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [MedievalSawdust] linen fold chest-details

             

             

            New person here-

             

            I'm in the planning stages on making a linenfold chest. Planning means I've been to the university library and looked at every scrap of info there, searched the internet, signed up for the beginning carving class at the local community college (great woodworking program!), and have access to wood that needs to be jointed, faced, and planed before it ever gets to the table saw. I believe the college will have 1/4 sawn northern oak available for sale.

             

            What I can't tell from my info so far is:

            1) how are the bottoms of these chests made? boards with battens? frame and panel? other?

            2) are the corners frames in 2 directions, that is a square leg with a panel slot in two faces - one front or back and one side?

            3) is there a preference for legs that are also corners and just go to the ground 2-4" past the bottom rail or should I add moulding around the bottom

             

             

            Any help is good. Thanks much,

             

            Suzanne



          • klausvmainz
            my 2 cents: Linenfolds can be fun to play with, but you have to be somewhat procedural in how you approach them. And you should expect to make at least a
            Message 5 of 12 , Sep 7, 2010
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              my 2 cents:

              Linenfolds can be fun to play with, but you have to be somewhat procedural in how you approach them. And you should expect to make at least a couple of study carvings before doing the actual project panels.

              As far as the undulations go, I've found that hogging the waste out with gouges & mallet and then refining the surfaces with either a molding plane or gooseneck scraper work the best for me. Planing the undulations away one thin molding plane shaving at a time is incredibly slow and tedious.

              Hope this helps,
              -Klaus



              --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, Suzanne Lacey <goldenhind05@...> wrote:
              >
              > My sources from the library universally say planes for the center parts:
              >
              > - moulding planes: John Morley, *The History of Furniture Making,
              > twenty-five centuries of style and design in the western tradition*, 1999.
              > - moulding planes for the centers, rabbeting plane for the edges: Erich
              > Klatt, *Period Furniture Design: Furniture making and cabinet work in the
              > periods of great styles*, 1961
              >
              > My carving teacher grimaced and said linen folds are tedious and exacting.
              > He also says planes are gouges with training wheels. Planes work for me if I
              > can find the right kind. A TA says he has one.
              >
              > Suzanne
              >
              >
              >
              > On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 7:24 PM, Jeffrey Johnson <jljonsn@...> wrote:
              >
              > >
              > >
              > > It's hard to see pics of bottoms if panel chests in museum. Got pics, Bill?
              > >
              > > What I always wonder about linenfold panels is the method of raising the
              > > linenfold from the ground. Ya, they can chisel carve it by hand, but that's
              > > massively skill-intensive, and the ones I've seen are pretty durned regular
              > > in profile to be pure hand-work. They COULD have had a moulding plane, or
              > > some sort of hollows and rounds, mayhaps. You've made 'em, Bill... thoughts?
              > >
              > >
              > > On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 9:54 PM, Bill McNutt <mcnutt@...> wrote:
              > >
              > >>
              > >>
              > >> I've made an extensive study, and I've seen ALL kinds of bottoms,
              > >> including one that was nailed on from the bottom. (I suspect that was a 19
              > >> th century repair, though.)
              > >>
              > >>
              > >> The most common bottom is frame and panel, just like the front.
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>
              > >> Will
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>
              > >> *From:* medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
              > >> medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Suzanne Lacey
              > >> *Sent:* Tuesday, September 07, 2010 9:50 PM
              > >> *To:* medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
              > >> *Subject:* [MedievalSawdust] linen fold chest-details
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>
              > >> New person here-
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>
              > >> I'm in the planning stages on making a linenfold chest. Planning means
              > >> I've been to the university library and looked at every scrap of info there,
              > >> searched the internet, signed up for the beginning carving class at the
              > >> local community college (great woodworking program!), and have access to
              > >> wood that needs to be jointed, faced, and planed before it ever gets to the
              > >> table saw. I believe the college will have 1/4 sawn northern oak available
              > >> for sale.
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>
              > >> What I can't tell from my info so far is:
              > >>
              > >> 1) how are the bottoms of these chests made? boards with battens? frame
              > >> and panel? other?
              > >>
              > >> 2) are the corners frames in 2 directions, that is a square leg with a
              > >> panel slot in two faces - one front or back and one side?
              > >>
              > >> 3) is there a preference for legs that are also corners and just go to the
              > >> ground 2-4" past the bottom rail or should I add moulding around the bottom
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>
              > >> Any help is good. Thanks much,
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>
              > >> Suzanne
              > >>
              > >>
              > >
              > >
              >
            • Bill McNutt
              Thoughts - ya sure! I ve made a three panel chest out of red oak that s about four feet long. I carved three front panels for it. It s a reproduction - but,
              Message 6 of 12 , Sep 8, 2010
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                Thoughts – ya sure!

                 

                I’ve made a three panel chest out of red oak that’s about four feet long.  I carved three front panels for it.  It’s a reproduction – but, of course, I don’t have my notes, so I can’t tell you where I got it at the moment. 

                 

                I did all the panels “the hard way,” with a set of bevel chisels and carving gouges, although I also used a block plane to flatten out the ground.  After I was finished, I ran across some research indicating that in the 1800’s, linen fold was carved with round-bottomed planes typically used for moulding.  Additional research found a number of mounding planes on the Mary Rose and here and there in medieval collections.

                 

                The fundamental equation of woodworking hasn’t changed in two thousand years:  time = money.  Given that it’s WAY faster to plane than to carve, and that round bottom planes were available, at least in 15th – 16th century England, which is my schtick (well, and a little Viking and German), I’m willing to say that it’s very likely that 15th century continental and English carvers produced panels using flat planes to raise the carving from the ground, then round-bottom planes to do most of the stock removal and shaping of the folks, and then carving gouges and chisels for detailing and finishing the ends of the folks.

                 

                Will

                 

                From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com [mailto:medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jeffrey Johnson
                Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 10:25 PM
                To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] linen fold chest-details

                 

                 

                It's hard to see pics of bottoms if panel chests in museum. Got pics, Bill?

                What I always wonder about linenfold panels is the method of raising the linenfold from the ground. Ya, they can chisel carve it by hand, but that's massively skill-intensive, and the ones I've seen are pretty durned regular in profile to be pure hand-work. They COULD have had a moulding plane, or some sort of hollows and rounds, mayhaps. You've made 'em, Bill... thoughts?

                On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 9:54 PM, Bill McNutt <mcnutt@...> wrote:

                 

                I’ve made an extensive study, and I’ve seen ALL kinds of bottoms, including one that was nailed on from the bottom. (I suspect that was a 19th century repair, though.)


                The most common bottom is frame and panel, just like the front.

                 

                Will

                 

                From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com [mailto:medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Suzanne Lacey
                Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 9:50 PM
                To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [MedievalSawdust] linen fold chest-details

                 

                 

                New person here-

                 

                I'm in the planning stages on making a linenfold chest. Planning means I've been to the university library and looked at every scrap of info there, searched the internet, signed up for the beginning carving class at the local community college (great woodworking program!), and have access to wood that needs to be jointed, faced, and planed before it ever gets to the table saw. I believe the college will have 1/4 sawn northern oak available for sale.

                 

                What I can't tell from my info so far is:

                1) how are the bottoms of these chests made? boards with battens? frame and panel? other?

                2) are the corners frames in 2 directions, that is a square leg with a panel slot in two faces - one front or back and one side?

                3) is there a preference for legs that are also corners and just go to the ground 2-4" past the bottom rail or should I add moulding around the bottom

                 

                 

                Any help is good. Thanks much,

                 

                Suzanne

                 

              • Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart
                The fundamental equation of woodworking hasn’t changed in two thousand years: time = money. ( IMHO ) You are mostly right about that. In the Medieval period
                Message 7 of 12 , Sep 8, 2010
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                  The fundamental equation of woodworking hasn’t changed in two 
                  thousand years:  time = money. 


                  ( IMHO )

                  You are mostly right about that.

                  In the Medieval period materials were expensive and labor was cheap
                  so the 'time = money' statement is not as true for then as it is now.
                  Or at least not as true for the same reasons now.

                  Now we get the bonus of labor is not cheap ( here in the US ) and 
                  neither are materials.

                  They used labor saving tools where possible but that was not to save
                  money on time spent making something so much as normal human
                  nature ( laziness.... why work harder than you need to? )

                   
                  Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart

                  Aude Aliquid Dignum
                  ' Dare Something Worthy '



                • Bill McNutt
                  True – labor was cheap relative to materials, and both were cheap relatives to tools you could not make yourself. But product that’s not finished is
                  Message 8 of 12 , Sep 8, 2010
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                    True – labor was cheap relative to materials, and both were cheap relatives to tools you could not make yourself.

                     

                    But product that’s not finished is product not out the door, no matter what period you’re looking at.

                     

                    Of course, far be it from me to undermine the motivating power of human laziness.  My ideal world involves me sitting at home while people send me checks for zero effort.

                     

                    Will

                     

                    From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com [mailto:medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart
                    Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2010 11:01 AM
                    To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] linen fold chest-details

                     

                     

                    The fundamental equation of woodworking hasn’t changed in two 

                    thousand years:  time = money. 

                     

                     

                    ( IMHO )

                     

                    You are mostly right about that.

                     

                    In the Medieval period materials were expensive and labor was cheap

                    so the 'time = money' statement is not as true for then as it is now.

                    Or at least not as true for the same reasons now.

                     

                    Now we get the bonus of labor is not cheap ( here in the US ) and 

                    neither are materials.

                     

                    They used labor saving tools where possible but that was not to save

                    money on time spent making something so much as normal human

                    nature ( laziness.... why work harder than you need to? )


                     

                    Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart

                    Aude Aliquid Dignum
                    ' Dare Something Worthy '

                     

                     

                     

                  • Electric Wolf
                    ((Sorry, had to be said)) Ah, Government work. :D ... -- David Volk abe Mc. Nullum beneficium inpune stat. ((Sorry, had to be said)) Ah, Government work. 
                    Message 9 of 12 , Sep 8, 2010
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                      ((Sorry, had to be said))

                      Ah, Government work.  :D

                      On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 10:13 AM, Bill McNutt <mcnutt@...> wrote:


                      True – labor was cheap relative to materials, and both were cheap relatives to tools you could not make yourself.

                       

                      But product that’s not finished is product not out the door, no matter what period you’re looking at.

                       

                      Of course, far be it from me to undermine the motivating power of human laziness.  My ideal world involves me sitting at home while people send me checks for zero effort.

                       

                      Will

                       

                      From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com [mailto:medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart
                      Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2010 11:01 AM


                      To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] linen fold chest-details

                       

                       

                      The fundamental equation of woodworking hasn’t changed in two 

                      thousand years:  time = money. 

                       

                       

                      ( IMHO )

                       

                      You are mostly right about that.

                       

                      In the Medieval period materials were expensive and labor was cheap

                      so the 'time = money' statement is not as true for then as it is now.

                      Or at least not as true for the same reasons now.

                       

                      Now we get the bonus of labor is not cheap ( here in the US ) and 

                      neither are materials.

                       

                      They used labor saving tools where possible but that was not to save

                      money on time spent making something so much as normal human

                      nature ( laziness.... why work harder than you need to? )


                       

                      Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart

                      Aude Aliquid Dignum
                      ' Dare Something Worthy '

                       

                       

                       






                      --
                      David "Volk'abe" Mc.
                      Nullum beneficium inpune stat.
                    • Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart
                      Of course, far be it from me to undermine the motivating power of human laziness. My ideal world involves me sitting at home while people send me checks for
                      Message 10 of 12 , Sep 8, 2010
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                        Of course, far be it from me to undermine the motivating power of human laziness.  My ideal world involves me sitting at home while people send me checks for zero effort.

                         

                        Will


                        Well.... you could see if they can just put money into your account.... I mean you have to walk to the mail box, walk back, open the envelopes, go the the bank, write out a deposit slip, total the checks...... there must be a simpler way..... 


                         
                        Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart

                        Aude Aliquid Dignum
                        ' Dare Something Worthy '



                      • Bill McNutt
                        Oddly - no. I m IN government work. And they insist that I show up to sit on my butt and be unproductive. They won t let me telecommute and sit on my butt
                        Message 11 of 12 , Sep 8, 2010
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                          Oddly – no.  I’m IN government work.  And they insist that I show up to sit on my butt and be unproductive.

                           

                          They won’t let me telecommute and sit on my butt and be unproductive.

                           

                          Will

                           

                          From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com [mailto:medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Electric Wolf
                          Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2010 11:17 AM
                          To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] linen fold chest-details

                           

                           

                          ((Sorry, had to be said))

                          Ah, Government work.  :D

                          On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 10:13 AM, Bill McNutt <mcnutt@...> wrote:

                           

                          True – labor was cheap relative to materials, and both were cheap relatives to tools you could not make yourself.

                           

                          But product that’s not finished is product not out the door, no matter what period you’re looking at.

                           

                          Of course, far be it from me to undermine the motivating power of human laziness.  My ideal world involves me sitting at home while people send me checks for zero effort.

                           

                          Will

                           

                          From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com [mailto:medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart
                          Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2010 11:01 AM


                          To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] linen fold chest-details

                           

                           

                          The fundamental equation of woodworking hasn’t changed in two 

                          thousand years:  time = money. 

                           

                           

                          ( IMHO )

                           

                          You are mostly right about that.

                           

                          In the Medieval period materials were expensive and labor was cheap

                          so the 'time = money' statement is not as true for then as it is now.

                          Or at least not as true for the same reasons now.

                           

                          Now we get the bonus of labor is not cheap ( here in the US ) and 

                          neither are materials.

                           

                          They used labor saving tools where possible but that was not to save

                          money on time spent making something so much as normal human

                          nature ( laziness.... why work harder than you need to? )


                           

                          Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart

                          Aude Aliquid Dignum
                          ' Dare Something Worthy '

                           

                           

                           

                           




                          --
                          David "Volk'abe" Mc.
                          Nullum beneficium inpune stat.

                        • Bill McNutt
                          Oh, direct deposit helps. But I still have to go to this job thing, where, occasionally, I do work. From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                          Message 12 of 12 , Sep 8, 2010
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                            Oh, direct deposit helps.  But I still have to go to this “job” thing, where, occasionally, I do “work.”

                             

                            From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com [mailto:medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart
                            Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2010 11:20 AM
                            To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] linen fold chest-details

                             

                             

                            Of course, far be it from me to undermine the motivating power of human laziness.  My ideal world involves me sitting at home while people send me checks for zero effort.

                             

                            Will

                             

                            Well.... you could see if they can just put money into your account.... I mean you have to walk to the mail box, walk back, open the envelopes, go the the bank, write out a deposit slip, total the checks...... there must be a simpler way..... 

                             

                             

                            Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart

                            Aude Aliquid Dignum
                            ' Dare Something Worthy '

                             

                             

                             

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