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Milk paint on sale at Panther Primitives

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  • Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart
    Looks like Panther primitives is going to no longer carry milk paint... http://www.pantherprimitives.com/sale.html Might have to order me some. Baron Conal
    Message 1 of 11 , Jun 11, 2010
      Looks like Panther primitives is going to no longer carry milk paint...


      Might have to order me some.


      Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart

      Aude Aliquid Dignum
      ' Dare Something Worthy '


    • John LaTorre
      ... Good prices, too! For all those panicking, Woodcraft still carries it, both in pre-mixed form:
      Message 2 of 11 , Jun 11, 2010
        Conal O'hAirt wrote:


        > Looks like Panther primitives is going to no longer carry milk paint...
        >
        > http://www.pantherprimitives.com/sale.html
        >
        >

        Good prices, too!

        For all those panicking, Woodcraft still carries it, both in pre-mixed form:

        http://www.woodcraft.com/Family/2005557/GENERAL-Milk-Paint.aspx

        and powdered:

        http://www.woodcraft.com/Family/2003742/2003742.aspx


        Johann von Drachenfels
        West Kingdom
      • Gille MacDhnouill
        Although I like milk paint for some applications, we shouldn t fool ourselves that it s medieval (or even very historical), as Stephen Sheperd points out in
        Message 3 of 11 , Jun 11, 2010
          Although I like milk paint for some applications, we shouldn't fool ourselves that it's medieval (or even very historical), as Stephen Sheperd points out in his blog -
          http://www.fullchisel.com/blog/?p=868#comments Check comment #8 where Stephen re-posts a denial of historical evidence for "milk paint"

          And I quote:
          >I will of course get some grief from bursting this bubble, but here >I go anyway. There is no such thing as milk paint. Examining >carefully the historical record, in probate inventories, journals, >dairies, advertisements and publications of the early nineteenth >century in America and have not found one documented case or can or >bottle or package of ‘milk paint’.

          -----Gille MacDhnouill,
          working wood in Milton, PA
          Shire of Abhainn Ciach Ghlais, AEthelmearc.

          --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart <baronconal@...> wrote:
          >
          > Looks like Panther primitives is going to no longer carry milk paint...
          >
          > http://www.pantherprimitives.com/sale.html
          >
          >
          > Might have to order me some.
          >
          > Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart
          >
          > Aude Aliquid Dignum
          > ' Dare Something Worthy '
          >
        • Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart
          It s not so much what the paint is made from as it is the colors and look achieved with them. They are not as obviously modern as today s paint Baron Conal
          Message 4 of 11 , Jun 11, 2010
            It's not so much what the paint is made from 
            as it is the colors and 'look' achieved with them.

            They are not as obviously 'modern' as today's paint
             
            Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart

            Aude Aliquid Dignum
            ' Dare Something Worthy '



            From: Gille MacDhnouill <whutchis@...>
            To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Fri, June 11, 2010 1:02:34 PM
            Subject: [MedievalSawdust] Re: Milk paint on sale at Panther Primitives

             

            Although I like milk paint for some applications, we shouldn't fool ourselves that it's medieval (or even very historical), as Stephen Sheperd points out in his blog -
            http://www.fullchisel.com/blog/?p=868#comments Check comment #8 where Stephen re-posts a denial of historical evidence for "milk paint"

            And I quote:

            >I will of course get some grief from bursting this bubble, but here >I go anyway. There is no such thing as milk paint. Examining >carefully the historical record, in probate inventories, journals, >dairies, advertisements and publications of the early nineteenth >century in America and have not found one documented case or can or >bottle or package of ‘milk paint’.

            -----Gille MacDhnouill,
            working wood in Milton, PA
            Shire of Abhainn Ciach Ghlais, AEthelmearc.

            --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart <baronconal@...> wrote:
            >
            > Looks like Panther primitives is going to no longer carry milk paint...
            >
            > http://www.pantherprimitives.com/sale.html
            >
            >
            > Might have to order me some.
            >
            > Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart
            >
            > Aude Aliquid Dignum
            > ' Dare Something Worthy '
            >


          • eric olsen
            Greetings. I have used milk paint recently on two different projects. One is for a kindling box and the other is for a weapons rack. In my attempts to
            Message 5 of 11 , Jun 11, 2010
              Greetings. I have used milk paint recently on two different projects. One is for a kindling box and the other is for a weapons rack. In my attempts to waterproof them as I live up here in the rainy Kingdom of An-Tir iah ve had 1 success(kindling box) and 1 failure(weapons rack). I tried using both a milk paint sealant and then a spray sealant. The one from the milk paint co. failed while I had a 50/50 with the spray one. Any recomendations for a sealant so the paint doesn't run?
               
              Seitheach Earnan mac Bearach
               
              Aka Eric Olsen


              From: Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart <baronconal@...>
              To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Fri, June 11, 2010 11:11:35 AM
              Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] Re: Milk paint on sale at Panther Primitives

               

              It's not so much what the paint is made from 
              as it is the colors and 'look' achieved with them.

              They are not as obviously 'modern' as today's paint
               
              Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart

              Aude Aliquid Dignum
              ' Dare Something Worthy '



              From: Gille MacDhnouill <whutchis@gmail. com>
              To: medievalsawdust@ yahoogroups. com
              Sent: Fri, June 11, 2010 1:02:34 PM
              Subject: [MedievalSawdust] Re: Milk paint on sale at Panther Primitives

               

              Although I like milk paint for some applications, we shouldn't fool ourselves that it's medieval (or even very historical), as Stephen Sheperd points out in his blog -
              http://www.fullchisel.com/blog/?p=868#comments Check comment #8 where Stephen re-posts a denial of historical evidence for "milk paint"

              And I quote:

              >I will of course get some grief from bursting this bubble, but here >I go anyway. There is no such thing as milk paint. Examining >carefully the historical record, in probate inventories, journals, >dairies, advertisements and publications of the early nineteenth >century in America and have not found one documented case or can or >bottle or package of ‘milk paint’.

              -----Gille MacDhnouill,
              working wood in Milton, PA
              Shire of Abhainn Ciach Ghlais, AEthelmearc.

              --- In medievalsawdust@ yahoogroups. com, Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart <baronconal@. ..> wrote:
              >
              > Looks like Panther primitives is going to no longer carry milk paint...
              >
              > http://www.pantherp rimitives. com/sale. html
              >
              >
              > Might have to order me some.
              >
              > Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart
              >
              > Aude Aliquid Dignum
              > ' Dare Something Worthy '
              >



            • Eric
              Gille, Stephen seems to be concerned with a much more modern period than my personal focus on the 10th century. The idea that not one mention of a can or
              Message 6 of 11 , Jun 11, 2010
                Gille,

                Stephen seems to be concerned with a much more modern period than my personal focus on the 10th century. The idea that not one mention of a can or bottle of milk paint exists from the early nineteenth century is not compelling evidence that artisans did not use milk as the protein binder for paint in earlier times.

                I also find Stephen's follwing statement to be curious, "There is an occasional reference to `casein' paint made from cheese and used by artists as a light duty paint, but it is not milk paint. Casein is a phosphoprotein that was developed in 1841, so the history is not that old." It is my understanding that casein is the predominant phosphoprotein that accounts for nearly 80% of proteins in cow milk and cheese. I doubt that cows significantly altered the chemical structure of of their milk as recently as 1841, though extracted casein may be more of a modern product.

                It is my understanding that "ancient" paints consisted of a pigment, such as ochre, mixed with a binder, such as linseed oil, egg yolk or milk. The addition of lime in milk paint allows the natural casein to improve the adhering characteristics of paints and coatings.

                This discussion may be similar to boiled linseed oil, the modern product is regular linseed oil with heavy metals added to speed drying. I've got natural boiled linseed oil as described here, "cold pressed oil contains about 30% protein that is removed in a cleaning process. The removal of the protein is crucial for preventing mold and mildew. When the protein is removed, the oil can be boiled and sterilized. This is contrary to the linseed oil products available in most paint stores. These products are NOT actually boiled even though they are labeled "boiled". Linseed oil that has the protein cannot be boiled, it is technically impossible (the oil will become explosive when heated.) If the linseed oil is not boiled and sterilized it does not dry. Substantial amounts of chemical driers have to then be added to these "unclean" linseed oil products." Although both products are called Boiled Linseed Oil, they are very different animals. This natural product is much closer to the drying oils used in SCA period.

                The bottom line is that I wouldn't so readily discount the concept of milk paint as not being period, however, the products available today may not be closely related to the original examples.

                Yours in Service to the Dream,
                Eirikr Mjoksiglandi
                Ashgrove, Barony of Altavia, Caid


                --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, "Gille MacDhnouill" <whutchis@...> wrote:
                >
                > Although I like milk paint for some applications, we shouldn't fool ourselves that it's medieval (or even very historical), as Stephen Sheperd points out in his blog -
                > http://www.fullchisel.com/blog/?p=868#comments Check comment #8 where Stephen re-posts a denial of historical evidence for "milk paint"
                >
                > And I quote:
                > >I will of course get some grief from bursting this bubble, but here >I go anyway. There is no such thing as milk paint. Examining >carefully the historical record, in probate inventories, journals, >dairies, advertisements and publications of the early nineteenth >century in America and have not found one documented case or can or >bottle or package of ‘milk paint’.
                >
                > -----Gille MacDhnouill,
                > working wood in Milton, PA
                > Shire of Abhainn Ciach Ghlais, AEthelmearc.
                >
              • Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart
                milk paint is water based.. what was the spray? Baron Conal O hAirt / Jim Hart Aude Aliquid Dignum Dare Something Worthy ________________________________
                Message 7 of 11 , Jun 11, 2010
                  milk paint is water based..

                  what was the spray? 

                   
                  Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart

                  Aude Aliquid Dignum
                  ' Dare Something Worthy '



                  From: eric olsen <couskon2006@...>
                  To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Fri, June 11, 2010 5:32:48 PM
                  Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] Re: Milk paint on sale at Panther Primitives

                   

                  Greetings. I have used milk paint recently on two different projects. One is for a kindling box and the other is for a weapons rack. In my attempts to waterproof them as I live up here in the rainy Kingdom of An-Tir iah ve had 1 success(kindling box) and 1 failure(weapons rack). I tried using both a milk paint sealant and then a spray sealant. The one from the milk paint co. failed while I had a 50/50 with the spray one. Any recomendations for a sealant so the paint doesn't run?
                   
                  Seitheach Earnan mac Bearach
                   
                  Aka Eric Olsen


                  From: Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart <baronconal@yahoo. com>
                  To: medievalsawdust@ yahoogroups. com
                  Sent: Fri, June 11, 2010 11:11:35 AM
                  Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] Re: Milk paint on sale at Panther Primitives

                   

                  It's not so much what the paint is made from 
                  as it is the colors and 'look' achieved with them.

                  They are not as obviously 'modern' as today's paint
                   
                  Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart

                  Aude Aliquid Dignum
                  ' Dare Something Worthy '



                  From: Gille MacDhnouill <whutchis@gmail. com>
                  To: medievalsawdust@ yahoogroups. com
                  Sent: Fri, June 11, 2010 1:02:34 PM
                  Subject: [MedievalSawdust] Re: Milk paint on sale at Panther Primitives

                   

                  Although I like milk paint for some applications, we shouldn't fool ourselves that it's medieval (or even very historical), as Stephen Sheperd points out in his blog -
                  http://www.fullchis el.com/blog/ ?p=868#comments Check comment #8 where Stephen re-posts a denial of historical evidence for "milk paint"

                  And I quote:

                  >I will of course get some grief from bursting this bubble, but here >I go anyway. There is no such thing as milk paint. Examining >carefully the historical record, in probate inventories, journals, >dairies, advertisements and publications of the early nineteenth >century in America and have not found one documented case or can or >bottle or package of ‘milk paint’.

                  -----Gille MacDhnouill,
                  working wood in Milton, PA
                  Shire of Abhainn Ciach Ghlais, AEthelmearc.

                  --- In medievalsawdust@ yahoogroups. com, Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart <baronconal@. ..> wrote:
                  >
                  > Looks like Panther primitives is going to no longer carry milk paint...
                  >
                  > http://www.pantherp rimitives. com/sale. html
                  >
                  >
                  > Might have to order me some.
                  >
                  > Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart
                  >
                  > Aude Aliquid Dignum
                  > ' Dare Something Worthy '
                  >




                • eric olsen
                  If I remember correctly it was a clear arylic. My wife and I tried the Clear Coat for milk paint but noticed water spots even after 2 coats. So I went and
                  Message 8 of 11 , Jun 11, 2010
                    If I remember correctly it was a clear arylic. My wife and I tried the Clear Coat for milk paint but noticed water spots even after 2 coats. So I went and picked up some spray acrylic for the 2 projects. It worked great with my kindling box, no runs from the rain at all. My weapons rack is another story. I had it outside our pavilion and when the rains came it streaked and looks like it has grey streaks now. Same finishing coat and same weather, a good 24 hrs of rain and a warm sunny day. Just 2 totally different results using the acryllic spray to try and waterproof it.
                     
                    Seitheach Earnan mac Bearach
                     
                    Aka Eric Olsen


                    From: Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart <baronconal@...>
                    To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Fri, June 11, 2010 3:32:26 PM
                    Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] Re: Milk paint on sale at Panther Primitives

                     

                    milk paint is water based..

                    what was the spray? 

                     
                    Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart

                    Aude Aliquid Dignum
                    ' Dare Something Worthy '



                    From: eric olsen <couskon2006@ yahoo.com>
                    To: medievalsawdust@ yahoogroups. com
                    Sent: Fri, June 11, 2010 5:32:48 PM
                    Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] Re: Milk paint on sale at Panther Primitives

                     

                    Greetings. I have used milk paint recently on two different projects. One is for a kindling box and the other is for a weapons rack. In my attempts to waterproof them as I live up here in the rainy Kingdom of An-Tir iah ve had 1 success(kindling box) and 1 failure(weapons rack). I tried using both a milk paint sealant and then a spray sealant. The one from the milk paint co. failed while I had a 50/50 with the spray one. Any recomendations for a sealant so the paint doesn't run?
                     
                    Seitheach Earnan mac Bearach
                     
                    Aka Eric Olsen


                    From: Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart <baronconal@yahoo. com>
                    To: medievalsawdust@ yahoogroups. com
                    Sent: Fri, June 11, 2010 11:11:35 AM
                    Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] Re: Milk paint on sale at Panther Primitives

                     

                    It's not so much what the paint is made from 
                    as it is the colors and 'look' achieved with them.

                    They are not as obviously 'modern' as today's paint
                     
                    Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart

                    Aude Aliquid Dignum
                    ' Dare Something Worthy '



                    From: Gille MacDhnouill <whutchis@gmail. com>
                    To: medievalsawdust@ yahoogroups. com
                    Sent: Fri, June 11, 2010 1:02:34 PM
                    Subject: [MedievalSawdust] Re: Milk paint on sale at Panther Primitives

                     

                    Although I like milk paint for some applications, we shouldn't fool ourselves that it's medieval (or even very historical), as Stephen Sheperd points out in his blog -
                    http://www.fullchis el.com/blog/ ?p=868#comments Check comment #8 where Stephen re-posts a denial of historical evidence for "milk paint"

                    And I quote:

                    >I will of course get some grief from bursting this bubble, but here >I go anyway. There is no such thing as milk paint. Examining >carefully the historical record, in probate inventories, journals, >dairies, advertisements and publications of the early nineteenth >century in America and have not found one documented case or can or >bottle or package of ‘milk paint’.

                    -----Gille MacDhnouill,
                    working wood in Milton, PA
                    Shire of Abhainn Ciach Ghlais, AEthelmearc.

                    --- In medievalsawdust@ yahoogroups. com, Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart <baronconal@. ..> wrote:
                    >
                    > Looks like Panther primitives is going to no longer carry milk paint...
                    >
                    > http://www.pantherp rimitives. com/sale. html
                    >
                    >
                    > Might have to order me some.
                    >
                    > Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart
                    >
                    > Aude Aliquid Dignum
                    > ' Dare Something Worthy '
                    >





                  • Gille MacDhnouill
                    ... I hope that s what he meant - of course Casein has been around as long as milk. ... I guess I m in the camp that says, we have this historical product
                    Message 9 of 11 , Jun 12, 2010
                      --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, "Eric" <ewdysar@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Gille,
                      >
                      > Stephen seems to be concerned with a much more modern period than my personal focus on the 10th century. The idea that not one mention of a can or bottle of milk paint exists from the early nineteenth century is not compelling evidence that artisans did not use milk as the protein binder for paint in earlier times.
                      >
                      > I also find Stephen's follwing statement to be curious, "There is an occasional reference to `casein' paint made from cheese and used by artists as a light duty paint, but it is not milk paint. Casein is a phosphoprotein that was developed in 1841, so the history is not that old." It is my understanding that casein is the predominant phosphoprotein that accounts for nearly 80% of proteins in cow milk and cheese. I doubt that cows significantly altered the chemical structure of of their milk as recently as 1841, though extracted casein may be more of a modern product.

                      I hope that's what he meant - of course "Casein" has been around as long as milk.

                      >
                      > It is my understanding that "ancient" paints consisted of a pigment, such as ochre, mixed with a binder, such as linseed oil, egg yolk or milk. The addition of lime in milk paint allows the natural casein to improve the adhering characteristics of paints and coatings.
                      >
                      > This discussion may be similar to boiled linseed oil, the modern product is regular linseed oil with heavy metals added to speed drying. I've got natural boiled linseed oil as described here, "cold pressed oil contains about 30% protein that is removed in a cleaning process. The removal of the protein is crucial for preventing mold and mildew. When the protein is removed, the oil can be boiled and sterilized. This is contrary to the linseed oil products available in most paint stores. These products are NOT actually boiled even though they are labeled "boiled". Linseed oil that has the protein cannot be boiled, it is technically impossible (the oil will become explosive when heated.) If the linseed oil is not boiled and sterilized it does not dry. Substantial amounts of chemical driers have to then be added to these "unclean" linseed oil products." Although both products are called Boiled Linseed Oil, they are very different animals. This natural product is much closer to the drying oils used in SCA period.
                      >
                      > The bottom line is that I wouldn't so readily discount the concept of milk paint as not being period, however, the products available today may not be closely related to the original examples.

                      I guess I'm in the camp that says, we have this "historical" product (called milk paint) that probably isn't even 200 years old. Don't assume that it's medieval (or late classical) without further evidence.

                      I am just beginning to learn about paint in period, and plan on trying to make some of my own from pigment and binder, but for now, I'm going to stick with the written sources (such as Cennini and Theophilus). If I find reference to milk or milk products, I'll be first in line to (partially) refute Stephen's post (which I believe has caused him a great deal of grief already). If you have further information, please share - this seems to be an under-explored topic in the SCA w.r.t. furniture painting. The illuminators have been working with "period pigments" for years now and seem to have a lot of information available.
                      -----Gille.

                      >
                      > Yours in Service to the Dream,
                      > Eirikr Mjoksiglandi
                      > Ashgrove, Barony of Altavia, Caid
                      >
                      >
                    • Gille MacDhnouill
                      I suspect the spray acrylic doesn t develop a thick enough film to prevent moisture penetrating or didn t have enough UV protection to hold up for long in
                      Message 10 of 11 , Jun 12, 2010
                        I suspect the spray acrylic doesn't develop a thick enough film to prevent moisture penetrating or didn't have enough UV protection to hold up for long in direct sunshine. I'd try an outdoor-rated varnish as a top coat using 3 or more coats.
                        If you don't want to affect the color of the paint, use a water-based varnish such as Varathane or General Finish's Polyacrylic. If you find you're transferring too much color from the paint when applying a water-based finish, you may need a spit coat of shellac over the paint.
                        Good luck - no finish holds up forever outdoors, you just have to balance how much work you want to do up front, vs. how often you want to re-finish.
                        -----Gille MacDhnouill
                        Working wood in Milon, PA
                        Abhainn Ciach Ghlais, AEthelmearc.

                        --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, eric olsen <couskon2006@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > If I remember correctly it was a clear arylic. My wife and I tried the Clear Coat for milk paint but noticed water spots even after 2 coats. So I went and picked up some spray acrylic for the 2 projects. It worked great with my kindling box, no runs from the rain at all. My weapons rack is another story. I had it outside our pavilion and when the rains came it streaked and looks like it has grey streaks now. Same finishing coat and same weather, a good 24 hrs of rain and a warm sunny day. Just 2 totally different results using the acryllic spray to try and waterproof it.
                        >
                        > Seitheach Earnan mac Bearach
                        >
                        > Aka Eric Olsen
                      • Tim Bray
                        I m in the same camp with Gille. Milk paint is one of those things that seems like it ought to be medieval, but probably isn t. Not only is there no evidence
                        Message 11 of 11 , Jun 15, 2010
                          I'm in the same camp with Gille.  Milk paint is one of those things that seems like it ought to be medieval, but probably isn't.  Not only is there no evidence for it, the experiential evidence is against it: the stuff just doesn't hold up very well without some sort of coating.  If you have to put a coating over it anyway, why not just use oil or tempera in the first place?  Adding a modern clear-coat over a 19th century milk paint on a medieval repro just seems bizarre to me.

                          Cheers,
                          Tim

                          On Sat, Jun 12, 2010 at 9:58 AM, Gille MacDhnouill <whutchis@...> wrote:


                          I guess I'm in the camp that says, we have this "historical" product (called milk paint) that probably isn't even 200 years old. Don't assume that it's medieval (or late classical) without further evidence.

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