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Re: [MedievalSawdust] medieval trundle beds

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  • Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart
    1. make it so it comes out from the foot of the bed instead of the side. 2. use THESE to put it together. Makes it fairly easy and really fast. 3. Instead of
    Message 1 of 21 , May 23 3:55 AM
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      1. make it so it comes out from the foot of the bed
      instead of the side.

      2. use THESE to put it together. Makes it fairly easy and
      really fast.

      3. Instead of wheels round off the bottoms of the legs
      and sand them very smooth and just slide it. If you make
      if from yellow pine it should be fairly light.
       
      Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart

      Aude Aliquid Dignum
      ' Dare Something Worthy '



      From: Sean Powell <powell.sean@...>
      To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Sat, May 22, 2010 9:06:58 PM
      Subject: [MedievalSawdust] medieval trundle beds

       

      Hello,
      This will be the first year that my wife and I bring our 4.5 year year
      old daughter with us camping. That necessitates another camp bed. As
      tent space is limited my wife asked me to consider a trundle-bed design.

      Here is a 16th century sample using a rope suspension. (I hope this
      works. otherwise I will have to load it to photobucket) I know nothing
      about this picture other then a vague date. If anyone has information or
      especially other pictures, I would love to have them.

      http://img162.echo.cx/img162/8361/bed2zb.jpg

      Anyway, first challenge is that standard air-mattresses are the same
      length regardless of width which makes it challenging for the lower to
      slide conveniently under the upper. Also, because this is camp furniture
      it needs to dismantle for transport.

      Second challenge is it needs to fit in a tent and the ground can often
      be 'squishy' so there may be removeable rails for it to roll on and
      keeping it light so it doesn't sink in is also good.

      Third challenge is I need to squeeze it into the rest of my project list
      which is already massive. :/

      Any info or advice is appreciated.

      Sean


    • Sean Powell
      Lord Matthewe, Good idea, I was aware that UK and European bed were different sizes by wandering through Wikipedia when I wanted sizes for a queen mattress:
      Message 2 of 21 , May 23 4:42 AM
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        Lord Matthewe,

        Good idea, I was aware that UK and European bed were different sizes by wandering through Wikipedia when I wanted sizes for a queen mattress:
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mattress_size
        It's further made complicated by air mattresses not always matching regular mattress sizes and changing in size based on how vigorous a person is inflating them. Additionally as a downside if I spring a leak in a twin airmattress it's a quick ride to Wallmart to keep my daughter happy. If it needs to be ordered from Europe then I'll be sleeping on the ground while she gets my side of the bed. :(

        I've seen beds with the diagonal lacing. It's a possibility. The ropes need to pass around the side rails for proper tensioning. That limits the size of the side-rails so the bed design is best for children or single sleepers. As a bonus they are fairly cheap to construct.

        Sean

        On 5/23/2010 4:47 AM, julian wilson wrote:
        --- On Sun, 23/5/10, Sean Powell <powell.sean@...> wrote:



          Hello,
        This will be the first year that my wife and I bring our 4.5 year year
        old daughter with us camping. That necessitates another camp bed.
        SNIPPED FOR BREVITY

        Third challenge is I need to squeeze it into the rest of my project list
        which is already massive. :/

        Any info or advice is appreciated.

        COMMENT
        Sean,
        just a thought here.
        Check the difference in sizing between US-Market airbeds and UK-market airbeds as to the lengths.
        I built my first convertible rope-suspension bed for "Euro-Hike" UK sized airbeds [bought through a UK-wide Camping andf Outdoor Equipment supplier named Millets], - for our first attendance at Drachenwald's second Raglan Ffair, in S. Wales.
         My lady and I weren't entirely happy with the size of those EuroHike airbeds, so during the next winter I bought some Coleman airbeds, and built myself a larger version of the rope-suspension bed-frame.
        My recollection is that I found the Coleman airbeds not only wider but also longer than the Euopean-sized "EuroHike" ones..
         So if your child is not of adult size anyway, perhaps a Eurohike single airbed will serve on a trundle frame which may be just short enough to slide under your US-sized rope-suspension bed frame?
        As for packing down such a frame - someone has replicated a simple rope-suspension frame which packs-up very small, and - from my recollection is entirely suitable for children. He copied his replication from a period representational carving. The rope suspension is done as a net, warp & weft diagonal to the head-to-foot alignment of the frame, and is simply rolled for packing and transport, not unlaced completely.
        You may find the info either in the Med. Encampments Yahoo-group files, or those of Master Charles Oakley [you'll have to google his website - I think the URL has changed], or of H.E. Master Terafan Rhys Greydragon [www.greydragon.org>]
        I hope you'll find this pointers helpful.
         YiS,
         Lord Matthewe Baker, ODB.,
        Hospitaller for West Dragonshire, Kingdom of Drachenwald.


        _._,___
      • Sean Powell
        I had considered sliding out of the foot but a queen mattress is only 60 wide and 80 tall. That would limit the trundle bed to a crib mattress unless it
        Message 3 of 21 , May 23 5:00 AM
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          I had considered sliding out of the foot but a queen mattress is only 60" wide and 80" tall. That would limit the trundle bed to a crib mattress unless it pulled the entire length (I guess that's what you were implying? I'll have to think on it. It changes the tent layout quite a bit.)

          Bed rail fastners were definetly on the list of non-medieval cheats. Thanks for the list, those are the cheapest option I have seen. Do you have experience with that particular brand?

          If I plan on long sled-like runners I could put on removeable wheels for regular ground use... Hmmm something to think about. Ooh! I bet it would be possible to design the footboard on the main bed so it swung out of the way to disguise where the smaller bed slides into. That would be cool. :)

          Now the question is aesthetics. What do I want a 15th century field bed to look like?

          Sean

          On 5/23/2010 6:55 AM, Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart wrote:
          1. make it so it comes out from the foot of the bed
          instead of the side.

          2. use THESE to put it together. Makes it fairly easy and
          really fast.

          3. Instead of wheels round off the bottoms of the legs
          and sand them very smooth and just slide it. If you make
          if from yellow pine it should be fairly light.
           
          Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart
        • bsrlee
          Another possible source of a shorter air mattress is to go to a shop that does - hiking - gear and look at the self-inflating mattresses. Most specialist
          Message 4 of 21 , May 23 7:27 AM
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            Another possible source of a shorter air mattress is to go to a shop
            that does - hiking - gear and look at the self-inflating mattresses.

            Most 'specialist' hiking/camping shops will have Thermarest or one of
            the many recent knock-off brands, and they all make 3/4 length versions
            of their matresses. These are a bit to a lot more expensive than plain
            blow-up mattresses, but I have yet to find anyone who got cold through
            one or bottomed out (even when mine had a slow leak at the valve). They
            are also around an inch high, so the whole sleeping arrangement will be
            2-3 inches thinner.

            So Miss Four-&-a-half would be entirely on her mattress, at least until
            she becomes Miss Twelve or so.
          • Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart
            I ve probably used over 20 sets of the hardware for beds I ve made. The fact that once the bed is assembled they are COMPLETELY hidden is great. I ve never had
            Message 5 of 21 , May 23 7:29 AM
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              I've probably used over 20 sets of the hardware
              for beds I've made. The fact that once the bed 
              is assembled they are COMPLETELY hidden is
              great. I've never had any problems with them.

              Rocker has two different sets, one slightly more
              expensive than the other, but functionally they
              are identical.

              I'd aim for a look similar to the photo... I did
              when I made one like that, but I was asked to 
              do it with wheels.

              I'm assuming you already have your bed? You
              could make your bed a little longer and fill the 
              extra space the length creates with a purpose 
              made 'pillow' allowing the shorter trundle room 
              to fit between the legs under it....


              Do you know what a bed wrench is?

              I wouldn't worry about a movable foot board. I'd hide
              the trundle behind a cloth drape.... Remember 
              you said you wanted to not consume lots of
              extra time with this....lol

               
              Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart

              Aude Aliquid Dignum
              ' Dare Something Worthy '



              From: Sean Powell <powell.sean@...>
              To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sun, May 23, 2010 8:00:12 AM
              Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] medieval trundle beds

               

              I had considered sliding out of the foot but a queen mattress is only 60" wide and 80" tall. That would limit the trundle bed to a crib mattress unless it pulled the entire length (I guess that's what you were implying? I'll have to think on it. It changes the tent layout quite a bit.)

              Bed rail fastners were definetly on the list of non-medieval cheats. Thanks for the list, those are the cheapest option I have seen. Do you have experience with that particular brand?

              If I plan on long sled-like runners I could put on removeable wheels for regular ground use... Hmmm something to think about. Ooh! I bet it would be possible to design the footboard on the main bed so it swung out of the way to disguise where the smaller bed slides into. That would be cool. :)

              Now the question is aesthetics. What do I want a 15th century field bed to look like?

              Sean

              On 5/23/2010 6:55 AM, Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart wrote:

              1. make it so it comes out from the foot of the bed
              instead of the side.

              2. use THESE to put it together. Makes it fairly easy and
              really fast.

              3. Instead of wheels round off the bottoms of the legs
              and sand them very smooth and just slide it. If you make
              if from yellow pine it should be fairly light.
               
              Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart

            • Wilhelm von Frankfurt
              ... Make the top bed longer than the air mattress. Who said they needed to be the same length. Ensure that the outside bed has NO spliters or corners to snag
              Message 6 of 21 , May 23 9:33 AM
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                > Anyway, first challenge is that standard air-mattresses are the same
                > length regardless of width which makes it challenging for the lower to
                > slide conveniently under the upper. Also, because this is camp furniture
                > it needs to dismantle for transport.

                Make the top bed longer than the air mattress. Who said they needed to be the same length.

                Ensure that the outside bed has NO spliters or corners to snag the lower air mattress when you pull it out.

                >
                > Second challenge is it needs to fit in a tent and the ground can often
                > be 'squishy' so there may be removeable rails for it to roll on and
                > keeping it light so it doesn't sink in is also good.

                Not seeing this. Put rugs under the beds to facilitate sliding them.

                >
                > Third challenge is I need to squeeze it into the rest of my project list
                > which is already massive. :/

                You need a copy of my handy time displacement machine. It squeezes 26 hours in a normal day. I've got hte plans for only $19.99 plus a small, small shipping fee. You'll need to acquire your own white wormhole; I don't sell those any more after I had three collaspe because of that LHC experiment.

                >
                > Any info or advice is appreciated.
                >

                Advice? Unsolicted advice usually applies more the giver than the receiver.

                > Sean
              • Jeremy Putt
                I just purchased the surface mounted ones from Rockler.com and they re unbelievably easy and sturdy...I wish I would ve remembered that my head board and
                Message 7 of 21 , May 23 10:25 AM
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                  I just purchased the surface mounted ones from Rockler.com and they're unbelievably easy and sturdy...I wish I would've remembered that my head board and footboard are not solid, needed two sets so I'm off to order another set of 4!

                  Conal - What size do you make your rails and which piece do you put on the rail itself, male or female?

                  Piero

                  --- On Sun, 5/23/10, Sean Powell <powell.sean@...> wrote:

                  From: Sean Powell <powell.sean@...>
                  Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] medieval trundle beds
                  To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Sunday, May 23, 2010, 12:00 PM

                   
                  I had considered sliding out of the foot but a queen mattress is only 60" wide and 80" tall. That would limit the trundle bed to a crib mattress unless it pulled the entire length (I guess that's what you were implying? I'll have to think on it. It changes the tent layout quite a bit.)

                  Bed rail fastners were definetly on the list of non-medieval cheats. Thanks for the list, those are the cheapest option I have seen. Do you have experience with that particular brand?

                  If I plan on long sled-like runners I could put on removeable wheels for regular ground use... Hmmm something to think about. Ooh! I bet it would be possible to design the footboard on the main bed so it swung out of the way to disguise where the smaller bed slides into. That would be cool. :)

                  Now the question is aesthetics. What do I want a 15th century field bed to look like?

                  Sean

                  On 5/23/2010 6:55 AM, Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart wrote:
                  1. make it so it comes out from the foot of the bed
                  instead of the side.

                  2. use THESE to put it together. Makes it fairly easy and
                  really fast.

                  3. Instead of wheels round off the bottoms of the legs
                  and sand them very smooth and just slide it. If you make
                  if from yellow pine it should be fairly light.
                   
                  Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart

                • Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart
                  I use 2x8 s or 2x10 s for the rails I put the female on the posts I actually use 2 sets per bed and attach both the side rails and the foot board and head
                  Message 8 of 21 , May 23 11:43 AM
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                    I use 2x8's or 2x10's for the rails

                    I put the female on the posts

                    I actually use 2 sets per bed and attach both the
                    side rails and the foot board and head board with 
                    the same hardware. I have four posts and 4 frame
                    boards 

                    All you need to assemble the frame is a rubber mallet
                    for tapping the rails into the 'locked' position and you 
                    have to remember to pick up up by the posts if you 
                    want to move it.... But as long as you do that it is
                    a REALLY sturdy bed. 

                    Unless the head of the bed has 2 separate
                    boards like this one. ummm.... I do not have
                    a photo without a mattress in place so here 
                    are two photos.... 



                    There is a little bit of a learning curve for assembly.
                    Usually one time is all it takes to realize what order 
                    the parts want to go together for set up...

                    I have learned that the curved corner 'cuts' at the 
                    ends of the headboard should be a little farther in
                    giving you a little bit of a flat area at the ends to
                    tap with a rubber mallet when setting up the bed.
                    You want the bottom of the curve to end with a 
                    couple inches of flat before it reaches the end of
                    the headboard.
                     
                    Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart

                    Aude Aliquid Dignum
                    ' Dare Something Worthy '



                    From: Jeremy Putt <piero_verrochi@...>
                    To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Sun, May 23, 2010 1:25:36 PM
                    Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] medieval trundle beds

                     

                    I just purchased the surface mounted ones from Rockler.com and they're unbelievably easy and sturdy...I wish I would've remembered that my head board and footboard are not solid, needed two sets so I'm off to order another set of 4!

                    Conal - What size do you make your rails and which piece do you put on the rail itself, male or female?

                    Piero


                  • james
                    I believe this a photo of the bed located at the Weald and Downland Museum in the Bayleaf house. You can see another glimps of it in their online virtual tour
                    Message 9 of 21 , May 24 6:15 AM
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                      I believe this a photo of the bed located at the Weald and Downland Museum in the Bayleaf house. You can see another glimps of it in their online virtual tour through their website. When we visited they referred to it as a truckle bed. You might be about to contact the museum for more details.


                      Cedric


                      --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, Sean Powell <powell.sean@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > Here is a 16th century sample using a rope suspension. (I hope this
                      > works. otherwise I will have to load it to photobucket) I know nothing
                      > about this picture other then a vague date. If anyone has information or
                      > especially other pictures, I would love to have them.
                      >
                      > http://img162.echo.cx/img162/8361/bed2zb.jpg
                      >
                    • powell.sean@comcast.net
                      Cedric. Wonderful information! I found the same image on there web page as well as some other nice ones of a trestle table (another of this summers projects)
                      Message 10 of 21 , May 24 8:34 AM
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                        Cedric. Wonderful information! I found the same image on there web page as well as some other nice ones of a trestle table (another of this summers projects)

                         

                        http://www.wealddown.co.uk/quick-tour-open-air-museum-singleton-4.htm

                         

                        Sean

                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "james" <jeason@...>
                        To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Monday, May 24, 2010 9:15:27 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
                        Subject: [MedievalSawdust] Re: medieval trundle beds

                        I believe this a photo of the bed located at the Weald and Downland Museum in the Bayleaf house.  You can see another glimps of it in their online virtual tour through their website.  When we visited they referred to it as a truckle bed.  You might be about to contact the museum for more details.


                        Cedric


                        --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, Sean Powell <powell.sean@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > Here is a 16th century sample using a rope suspension. (I hope this
                        > works. otherwise I will have to load it to photobucket) I know nothing
                        > about this picture other then a vague date. If anyone has information or
                        > especially other pictures, I would love to have them.
                        >
                        > http://img162.echo.cx/img162/8361/bed2zb.jpg
                        >




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                      • julian wilson
                        ... wrote:   Cedric. Wonderful information! I found the same image on there web page as well as some other nice ones of a trestle table (another of this
                        Message 11 of 21 , May 24 9:49 AM
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                          --- On Mon, 24/5/10, powell.sean@... <powell.sean@...> wrote:


                           

                          Cedric. Wonderful information! I found the same image on there web page as well as some other nice ones of a trestle table (another of this summers projects)

                          http://www.wealddow n.co.uk/quick- tour-open- air-museum- singleton- 4.htm



                          COMMENT
                          Sean,
                          IIRC, at the Weald & Downland Museum, upstairs one of the two bedrooms in "Walderton", [Building No 4 on the Site Map], & opposite "Whittaker's Cottages", - there is another rope-suspension main bedframe, with an even LOWER trundle bed-frame on display underneath the main frame. The design principle is the same as the one Lord Cedric of the Floppy Hat sent you, but the "legs" are almost non-existant - the trundle bed-frame only just clearing the floor planks by about 2" or so. This means that the ropes must have been very tightly-tensioned indeed, to stop weight-induced sagging bringing the occupant into contact with the floor planking.
                          However, tensioning the ropes on any such bed is really simple, with a combination of a wooden lever for primary tensioning; followed by the insertion of wedges into the loops after tieing-off 
                          You should note that the frames of the two rundle beds on display at this Museum are formed of 4"x4" oak stock for stiffness of the frame. Such members don't deform sideways under load very much, but they DO weigh a lot; - which might cause you weight concerns in your "load-out" to and from Events.

                          YiS,
                           Lord Matthewe Baker,
                          Hospitaller,
                           West Dragonshire,
                           Kingdom 0f Drachenwald.
                        • powell.sean@comcast.net
                          Thank you, that is more good information. Balancing side-beam sag vs weight is always a challenege in rope beds. 4x4 oak is more then I want to transport. That
                          Message 12 of 21 , May 24 11:38 AM
                          • 0 Attachment

                            Thank you, that is more good information.

                             

                            Balancing side-beam sag vs weight is always a challenege in rope beds. 4x4 oak is more then I want to transport. That plus the time of threading the rope for short events, the need to re-tension (not like I don't re-inflate an air mattress too) and the mold I have gotten on hemp rope (ok they were tent guy ropes after a particularly wet war) are reasons I generally prefer slat beds. Still, I was considering rope for the authenticity level assuming I could find a period design worth replicating (or multiple period designs worth stealing elements from). Also I have seem half-crescent bracing bars in some beds. I think this is a modern Ooops fix when SCAdians realized that the rails were bending too much. A center rail can help with sag also but it is in an inconvenient location for, how shall we say, co-ed bedtime activities?

                             

                            If I decide to go peri-oid I'll probably include a center rail on the upper bed and then 1x3 slats connected with nylon webbing. The webbing holds all the slat spacing and you can anchor it top and bottom which makes it a hybrid rope/slat setup plus they are easy to roll up in a bundle.

                             

                            If anyone has pictures of either bed I would appreciate them.

                             

                            Sean


                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: "julian wilson" <smnco37@...>
                            To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Monday, May 24, 2010 12:49:13 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
                            Subject: [MedievalSawdust] Weald & Downland Mus. exhibits - was medieval trundle beds



                            --- On Mon, 24/5/10, powell.sean@... <powell.sean@...> wrote:


                             

                            Cedric. Wonderful information! I found the same image on there web page as well as some other nice ones of a trestle table (another of this summers projects)

                            http://www.wealddow n.co.uk/quick- tour-open- air-museum- singleton- 4.htm



                            COMMENT
                            Sean,
                            IIRC, at the Weald & Downland Museum, upstairs one of the two bedrooms in "Walderton", [Building No 4 on the Site Map], & opposite "Whittaker's Cottages", - there is another rope-suspension main bedframe, with an even LOWER trundle bed-frame on display underneath the main frame. The design principle is the same as the one Lord Cedric of the Floppy Hat sent you, but the "legs" are almost non-existant - the trundle bed-frame only just clearing the floor planks by about 2" or so. This means that the ropes must have been very tightly-tensioned indeed, to stop weight-induced sagging bringing the occupant into contact with the floor planking.
                            However, tensioning the ropes on any such bed is really simple, with a combination of a wooden lever for primary tensioning; followed by the insertion of wedges into the loops after tieing-off 
                            You should note that the frames of the two rundle beds on display at this Museum are formed of 4"x4" oak stock for stiffness of the frame. Such members don't deform sideways under load very much, but they DO weigh a lot; - which might cause you weight concerns in your "load-out" to and from Events.

                            YiS,
                             Lord Matthewe Baker,
                            Hospitaller,
                             West Dragonshire,
                             Kingdom 0f Drachenwald.


                          • Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart
                            Rope beds with the center support and a bed wrench are the way I d go. I d going to state my firm preference for rope beds again. Picture of my bed without
                            Message 13 of 21 , May 24 12:03 PM
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                              Rope beds with the center support and 
                              a bed wrench are the way I'd go.

                              I'd going to state my firm preference for
                              rope beds again.

                              Picture of my bed without mattress HERE

                              Picture with all the 'bells and whistles' HERE

                              They were a very common type of bed for
                              a very long period of history.  That would
                              not have happened if rope beds didn't work.

                              Rope beds got a lot of bad press from people
                              who did not know how to properly make or
                              string them up.... 

                              My bed wrench lets me get the ropes so 
                              tight the vibrate when 'plucked'.

                              and the transport space the slats would have 
                              taken up is free for other stuff.

                              I used 2x8's for the side rails and have had no
                              issues with bowing inwards even with the really
                              tightly tensioned ropes.

                              I cheated and used some modern hardware to 
                              make it easily broken down, but the hardware is 
                              COMPLETELY hidden when the bed is assembled
                              and I have no fears that the hardware will fail.

                              and the hardware.... while I have no proof that 
                              it has any period elements to it.... it is well 
                              within the realm of something that could have been
                              done.... It's a simple bracket and hook.
                               
                              Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart

                              Aude Aliquid Dignum
                              ' Dare Something Worthy '



                              From: "powell.sean@..." <powell.sean@...>
                              To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Mon, May 24, 2010 2:38:13 PM
                              Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] Weald & Downland Mus. exhibits - was medieval trundle beds

                               

                              Thank you, that is more good information.

                               

                              Balancing side-beam sag vs weight is always a challenege in rope beds. 4x4 oak is more then I want to transport. That plus the time of threading the rope for short events, the need to re-tension (not like I don't re-inflate an air mattress too) and the mold I have gotten on hemp rope (ok they were tent guy ropes after a particularly wet war) are reasons I generally prefer slat beds. Still, I was considering rope for the authenticity level assuming I could find a period design worth replicating (or multiple period designs worth stealing elements from). Also I have seem half-crescent bracing bars in some beds. I think this is a modern Ooops fix when SCAdians realized that the rails were bending too much. A center rail can help with sag also but it is in an inconvenient location for, how shall we say, co-ed bedtime activities?

                               

                              If I decide to go peri-oid I'll probably include a center rail on the upper bed and then 1x3 slats connected with nylon webbing. The webbing holds all the slat spacing and you can anchor it top and bottom which makes it a hybrid rope/slat setup plus they are easy to roll up in a bundle.

                               

                              If anyone has pictures of either bed I would appreciate them.

                               

                              Sean


                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: "julian wilson" <smnco37@yahoo. co.uk>
                              To: medievalsawdust@ yahoogroups. com
                              Sent: Monday, May 24, 2010 12:49:13 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
                              Subject: [MedievalSawdust] Weald & Downland Mus. exhibits - was medieval trundle beds



                              --- On Mon, 24/5/10, powell.sean@ comcast.net <powell.sean@ comcast.net> wrote:


                               

                              Cedric. Wonderful information! I found the same image on there web page as well as some other nice ones of a trestle table (another of this summers projects)

                              http://www.wealddow n.co.uk/quick- tour-open- air-museum- singleton- 4.htm



                              COMMENT
                              Sean,
                              IIRC, at the Weald & Downland Museum, upstairs one of the two bedrooms in "Walderton", [Building No 4 on the Site Map], & opposite "Whittaker's Cottages", - there is another rope-suspension main bedframe, with an even LOWER trundle bed-frame on display underneath the main frame. The design principle is the same as the one Lord Cedric of the Floppy Hat sent you, but the "legs" are almost non-existant - the trundle bed-frame only just clearing the floor planks by about 2" or so. This means that the ropes must have been very tightly-tensioned indeed, to stop weight-induced sagging bringing the occupant into contact with the floor planking.
                              However, tensioning the ropes on any such bed is really simple, with a combination of a wooden lever for primary tensioning; followed by the insertion of wedges into the loops after tieing-off 
                              You should note that the frames of the two rundle beds on display at this Museum are formed of 4"x4" oak stock for stiffness of the frame. Such members don't deform sideways under load very much, but they DO weigh a lot; - which might cause you weight concerns in your "load-out" to and from Events.

                              YiS,
                               Lord Matthewe Baker,
                              Hospitaller,
                               West Dragonshire,
                               Kingdom 0f Drachenwald.



                            • Thomas von Holthausen
                              I agree that a rope bed with bed wench is best. How often has that joke been attempted? Herr Thomas von Holthausen Barony of Three Rivers, Calontir
                              Message 14 of 21 , May 24 12:22 PM
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                                I agree that a rope bed with bed wench is best.








                                How often has that joke been attempted?
                                Herr Thomas von Holthausen
                                Barony of Three Rivers, Calontir
                                

                                On 5/24/2010 2:03 PM, Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart wrote:
                                 
                                Rope beds with the center support and 
                                a bed wrench are the way I'd go.

                                I'd going to state my firm preference for
                                rope beds again.

                                Picture of my bed without mattress HERE

                                Picture with all the 'bells and whistles' HERE

                                They were a very common type of bed for
                                a very long period of history.  That would
                                not have happened if rope beds didn't work.

                                Rope beds got a lot of bad press from people
                                who did not know how to properly make or
                                string them up.... 

                                My bed wrench lets me get the ropes so 
                                tight the vibrate when 'plucked'.

                                and the transport space the slats would have 
                                taken up is free for other stuff.

                                I used 2x8's for the side rails and have had no
                                issues with bowing inwards even with the really
                                tightly tensioned ropes.

                                I cheated and used some modern hardware to 
                                make it easily broken down, but the hardware is 
                                COMPLETELY hidden when the bed is assembled
                                and I have no fears that the hardware will fail.

                                and the hardware.... while I have no proof that 
                                it has any period elements to it.... it is well 
                                within the realm of something that could have been
                                done.... It's a simple bracket and hook.
                                 
                                Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart

                                Aude Aliquid Dignum
                                ' Dare Something Worthy '



                                From: "powell.sean@ comcast.net" <powell.sean@ comcast.net>
                                To: medievalsawdust@ yahoogroups. com
                                Sent: Mon, May 24, 2010 2:38:13 PM
                                Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] Weald & Downland Mus. exhibits - was medieval trundle beds

                                 

                                Thank you, that is more good information.

                                 

                                Balancing side-beam sag vs weight is always a challenege in rope beds. 4x4 oak is more then I want to transport. That plus the time of threading the rope for short events, the need to re-tension (not like I don't re-inflate an air mattress too) and the mold I have gotten on hemp rope (ok they were tent guy ropes after a particularly wet war) are reasons I generally prefer slat beds. Still, I was considering rope for the authenticity level assuming I could find a period design worth replicating (or multiple period designs worth stealing elements from). Also I have seem half-crescent bracing bars in some beds. I think this is a modern Ooops fix when SCAdians realized that the rails were bending too much. A center rail can help with sag also but it is in an inconvenient location for, how shall we say, co-ed bedtime activities?

                                 

                                If I decide to go peri-oid I'll probably include a center rail on the upper bed and then 1x3 slats connected with nylon webbing. The webbing holds all the slat spacing and you can anchor it top and bottom which makes it a hybrid rope/slat setup plus they are easy to roll up in a bundle.

                                 

                                If anyone has pictures of either bed I would appreciate them.

                                 

                                Sean


                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: "julian wilson" <smnco37@yahoo. co.uk>
                                To: medievalsawdust@ yahoogroups. com
                                Sent: Monday, May 24, 2010 12:49:13 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
                                Subject: [MedievalSawdust] Weald & Downland Mus. exhibits - was medieval trundle beds



                                --- On Mon, 24/5/10, powell.sean@ comcast.net <powell.sean@ comcast.net> wrote:


                                 

                                Cedric. Wonderful information! I found the same image on there web page as well as some other nice ones of a trestle table (another of this summers projects)

                                http://www.wealddow n.co.uk/quick- tour-open- air-museum- singleton- 4.htm



                                COMMENT
                                Sean,
                                IIRC, at the Weald & Downland Museum, upstairs one of the two bedrooms in "Walderton", [Building No 4 on the Site Map], & opposite "Whittaker's Cottages", - there is another rope-suspension main bedframe, with an even LOWER trundle bed-frame on display underneath the main frame. The design principle is the same as the one Lord Cedric of the Floppy Hat sent you, but the "legs" are almost non-existant - the trundle bed-frame only just clearing the floor planks by about 2" or so. This means that the ropes must have been very tightly-tensioned indeed, to stop weight-induced sagging bringing the occupant into contact with the floor planking.
                                However, tensioning the ropes on any such bed is really simple, with a combination of a wooden lever for primary tensioning; followed by the insertion of wedges into the loops after tieing-off 
                                You should note that the frames of the two rundle beds on display at this Museum are formed of 4"x4" oak stock for stiffness of the frame. Such members don't deform sideways under load very much, but they DO weigh a lot; - which might cause you weight concerns in your "load-out" to and from Events.

                                YiS,
                                 Lord Matthewe Baker,
                                Hospitaller,
                                 West Dragonshire,
                                 Kingdom 0f Drachenwald.



                              • AqA WyrdWynd
                                doesnt sleeping with bells and wistles become disturbinly didfficult ????? have at ye with a flock of flaming yodeling hamsters !!! ... From: Conal O hAirt Jim
                                Message 15 of 21 , May 24 12:49 PM
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                                  doesnt sleeping with bells and wistles become disturbinly didfficult ?????

                                  have at ye with a flock of flaming yodeling hamsters !!!



                                  --- On Mon, 5/24/10, Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart <baronconal@...> wrote:

                                  From: Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart <baronconal@...>
                                  Subject: [MedievalSawdust] Slat beds vs Rope beds
                                  To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                                  Date: Monday, May 24, 2010, 3:03 PM



                                  Rope beds with the center support and 
                                  a bed wrench are the way I'd go.

                                  I'd going to state my firm preference for
                                  rope beds again.

                                  Picture of my bed without mattress HERE

                                  Picture with all the 'bells and whistles' HERE

                                  They were a very common type of bed for
                                  a very long period of history.  That would
                                  not have happened if rope beds didn't work.

                                  Rope beds got a lot of bad press from people
                                  who did not know how to properly make or
                                  string them up.... 

                                  My bed wrench lets me get the ropes so 
                                  tight the vibrate when 'plucked'.

                                  and the transport space the slats would have 
                                  taken up is free for other stuff.

                                  I used 2x8's for the side rails and have had no
                                  issues with bowing inwards even with the really
                                  tightly tensioned ropes.

                                  I cheated and used some modern hardware to 
                                  make it easily broken down, but the hardware is 
                                  COMPLETELY hidden when the bed is assembled
                                  and I have no fears that the hardware will fail.

                                  and the hardware.... while I have no proof that 
                                  it has any period elements to it.... it is well 
                                  within the realm of something that could have been
                                  done.... It's a simple bracket and hook.
                                   
                                  Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart

                                  Aude Aliquid Dignum
                                  ' Dare Something Worthy '



                                  From: "powell.sean@..." <powell.sean@...>
                                  To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Mon, May 24, 2010 2:38:13 PM
                                  Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] Weald & Downland Mus. exhibits - was medieval trundle beds

                                   

                                  Thank you, that is more good information.

                                   

                                  Balancing side-beam sag vs weight is always a challenege in rope beds. 4x4 oak is more then I want to transport. That plus the time of threading the rope for short events, the need to re-tension (not like I don't re-inflate an air mattress too) and the mold I have gotten on hemp rope (ok they were tent guy ropes after a particularly wet war) are reasons I generally prefer slat beds. Still, I was considering rope for the authenticity level assuming I could find a period design worth replicating (or multiple period designs worth stealing elements from). Also I have seem half-crescent bracing bars in some beds. I think this is a modern Ooops fix when SCAdians realized that the rails were bending too much. A center rail can help with sag also but it is in an inconvenient location for, how shall we say, co-ed bedtime activities?

                                   

                                  If I decide to go peri-oid I'll probably include a center rail on the upper bed and then 1x3 slats connected with nylon webbing. The webbing holds all the slat spacing and you can anchor it top and bottom which makes it a hybrid rope/slat setup plus they are easy to roll up in a bundle.

                                   

                                  If anyone has pictures of either bed I would appreciate them.

                                   

                                  Sean


                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: "julian wilson" <smnco37@yahoo. co.uk>
                                  To: medievalsawdust@ yahoogroups. com
                                  Sent: Monday, May 24, 2010 12:49:13 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
                                  Subject: [MedievalSawdust] Weald & Downland Mus. exhibits - was medieval trundle beds



                                  --- On Mon, 24/5/10, powell.sean@ comcast.net <powell.sean@ comcast.net> wrote:


                                   

                                  Cedric. Wonderful information! I found the same image on there web page as well as some other nice ones of a trestle table (another of this summers projects)

                                  http://www.wealddow n.co.uk/quick- tour-open- air-museum- singleton- 4.htm



                                  COMMENT
                                  Sean,
                                  IIRC, at the Weald & Downland Museum, upstairs one of the two bedrooms in "Walderton", [Building No 4 on the Site Map], & opposite "Whittaker's Cottages", - there is another rope-suspension main bedframe, with an even LOWER trundle bed-frame on display underneath the main frame. The design principle is the same as the one Lord Cedric of the Floppy Hat sent you, but the "legs" are almost non-existant - the trundle bed-frame only just clearing the floor planks by about 2" or so. This means that the ropes must have been very tightly-tensioned indeed, to stop weight-induced sagging bringing the occupant into contact with the floor planking.
                                  However, tensioning the ropes on any such bed is really simple, with a combination of a wooden lever for primary tensioning; followed by the insertion of wedges into the loops after tieing-off 
                                  You should note that the frames of the two rundle beds on display at this Museum are formed of 4"x4" oak stock for stiffness of the frame. Such members don't deform sideways under load very much, but they DO weigh a lot; - which might cause you weight concerns in your "load-out" to and from Events.

                                  YiS,
                                   Lord Matthewe Baker,
                                  Hospitaller,
                                   West Dragonshire,
                                   Kingdom 0f Drachenwald.






                                • julian wilson
                                  ... wrote:   I agree that a rope bed with bed wench is best. How often has that joke been attempted? COMMENT  Good my Lords, surely  one s cum fort[h] 
                                  Message 16 of 21 , May 24 1:01 PM
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    --- On Mon, 24/5/10, Thomas von Holthausen <tvh.b3r.calontir@...> wrote:



                                     I agree that a rope bed with bed wench is best.
                                    How often has that joke been attempted?


                                    COMMENT
                                     Good my Lords,
                                    surely  one's cum fort[h]  hath oft depended upon success with tempting a bed wench?

                                    Sorry, couldn't resist that - after all it's Punday Night!

                                    But to my matter, then - -
                                    I have used 2"x8" PAR for all the rope-suspension bed-frames I've made, based upon the design shewn unto me by H.E. Master Terafan Greydragon. The joints  are tusk tenoned and wedge-locked. I use what you name a "bed wrench" for primary tensioning of the rope, and tie it off;  then insert wedges into the loops outside the bedframe for further tensioning.  Over this, [hidden from questing eyes], my Lady and I use the biggest Coleman airbed, which compensates for any small sagging in the ropes that our weight might cause, romping or sleeping.
                                    However, I agree that it's much quicker to set-up and dismantle a slat bed, especially if transport-space/weight is not a consideration.

                                    BTW, I make my bed-frames convertible  - single or double options; - it's only 3 extra pieces of wood to be wrought and a little more workshop-time.. So, if you know you will be attending an event alone, leave the double-width headboard and head & foot rails at home, and just take the single-width ones.
                                    Anyone who is curious about my designs, you can view my work in the Medieval Encampment Photo Files, under "Messire Baker's Camp and Work".

                                    YiS,
                                    Matthewe
                                  • CatalinadeGata
                                    As for Restringing... I leave mine threaded. I just loosen it up a bit, undo the corners tilt the ends and roll up together in the webbing. Means I just have
                                    Message 17 of 21 , May 24 9:22 PM
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      As for Restringing...

                                      I leave mine threaded. I just loosen it up a bit, undo the corners tilt the ends and roll up together in the webbing. Means I just have to unroll and tighten when I get to events. I wouldn't mind seeing a picture of a bed wrench...I usually put on the leather gloves and tighten by hand with no issue.

                                      Tex

                                      --- On Mon, 5/24/10, julian wilson <smnco37@...> wrote:

                                      From: julian wilson <smnco37@...>
                                      Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] Slat beds vs Rope beds
                                      To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                                      Date: Monday, May 24, 2010, 3:01 PM

                                       

                                      --- On Mon, 24/5/10, Thomas von Holthausen <tvh.b3r.calontir@ gmail.com> wrote:



                                       I agree that a rope bed with bed wench is best.
                                      How often has that joke been attempted?


                                      COMMENT
                                       Good my Lords,
                                      surely  one's cum fort[h]  hath oft depended upon success with tempting a bed wench?

                                      Sorry, couldn't resist that - after all it's Punday Night!

                                      But to my matter, then - -
                                      I have used 2"x8" PAR for all the rope-suspension bed-frames I've made, based upon the design shewn unto me by H.E. Master Terafan Greydragon. The joints  are tusk tenoned and wedge-locked. I use what you name a "bed wrench" for primary tensioning of the rope, and tie it off;  then insert wedges into the loops outside the bedframe for further tensioning.  Over this, [hidden from questing eyes], my Lady and I use the biggest Coleman airbed, which compensates for any small sagging in the ropes that our weight might cause, romping or sleeping.
                                      However, I agree that it's much quicker to set-up and dismantle a slat bed, especially if transport-space/ weight is not a consideration.

                                      BTW, I make my bed-frames convertible  - single or double options; - it's only 3 extra pieces of wood to be wrought and a little more workshop-time. . So, if you know you will be attending an event alone, leave the double-width headboard and head & foot rails at home, and just take the single-width ones.
                                      Anyone who is curious about my designs, you can view my work in the Medieval Encampment Photo Files, under "Messire Baker's Camp and Work".

                                      YiS,
                                      Matthewe


                                    • Eric
                                      And I will state my preference for slat beds. ;) I just added some pics of my slat bed in the folder Eirikr s Camp . Packs flat and sets up fast; no tricks,
                                      Message 18 of 21 , May 24 10:17 PM
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                                        And I will state my preference for slat beds. ;)

                                        I just added some pics of my slat bed in the folder "Eirikr's Camp". Packs flat and sets up fast; no tricks, no metal, no cheats. The design is 100% period for me as a 10C Viking, I think that my bed looks more like the original than most. Very sturdy with a solid futon, it has held up to many restful nights and vigorous "stress testing". This bed, like so many others, was based on Chas. Oakley's plans and documentation.

                                        In his words, "Have fun, make stuff"
                                        THL Eirikr Mjoksiglandi
                                        Ashgrove, Barony of Altavia, Caid

                                        --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart <baronconal@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Rope beds with the center support and
                                        > a bed wrench are the way I'd go.
                                        >
                                        > I'd going to state my firm preference for
                                        > rope beds again....
                                        >
                                        > They were a very common type of bed for
                                        > a very long period of history. That would
                                        > not have happened if rope beds didn't work.
                                        >
                                        > Rope beds got a lot of bad press from people
                                        > who did not know how to properly make or
                                        > string them up....
                                        >
                                        > I cheated and used some modern hardware to
                                        > make it easily broken down, but the hardware is
                                        > COMPLETELY hidden when the bed is assembled
                                        > and I have no fears that the hardware will fail.
                                        >
                                        > and the hardware.... while I have no proof that
                                        > it has any period elements to it.... it is well
                                        > within the realm of something that could have been
                                        > done.... It's a simple bracket and hook.
                                        > Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart
                                        >
                                        > Aude Aliquid Dignum
                                        > ' Dare Something Worthy '
                                        >
                                        >
                                      • Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart
                                        Bed Wrench Baron Conal O hAirt / Jim Hart Aude Aliquid Dignum Dare Something Worthy ________________________________ From: CatalinadeGata
                                        Message 19 of 21 , May 25 8:37 AM
                                        • 0 Attachment


                                           
                                          Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart

                                          Aude Aliquid Dignum
                                          ' Dare Something Worthy '



                                          From: CatalinadeGata <gatan_oz@...>
                                          To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                                          Sent: Tue, May 25, 2010 12:22:48 AM
                                          Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] Slat beds vs Rope beds

                                           

                                          As for Restringing. ..

                                          I leave mine threaded. I just loosen it up a bit, undo the corners tilt the ends and roll up together in the webbing. Means I just have to unroll and tighten when I get to events. I wouldn't mind seeing a picture of a bed wrench...I usually put on the leather gloves and tighten by hand with no issue.

                                          Tex

                                          --- On Mon, 5/24/10, julian wilson <smnco37@yahoo. co.uk> wrote:

                                          From: julian wilson <smnco37@yahoo. co.uk>
                                          Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] Slat beds vs Rope beds
                                          To: medievalsawdust@ yahoogroups. com
                                          Date: Monday, May 24, 2010, 3:01 PM

                                           

                                          --- On Mon, 24/5/10, Thomas von Holthausen <tvh.b3r.calontir@ gmail.com> wrote:



                                           I agree that a rope bed with bed wench is best.
                                          How often has that joke been attempted?


                                          COMMENT
                                           Good my Lords,
                                          surely  one's cum fort[h]  hath oft depended upon success with tempting a bed wench?

                                          Sorry, couldn't resist that - after all it's Punday Night!

                                          But to my matter, then - -
                                          I have used 2"x8" PAR for all the rope-suspension bed-frames I've made, based upon the design shewn unto me by H.E. Master Terafan Greydragon. The joints  are tusk tenoned and wedge-locked. I use what you name a "bed wrench" for primary tensioning of the rope, and tie it off;  then insert wedges into the loops outside the bedframe for further tensioning.  Over this, [hidden from questing eyes], my Lady and I use the biggest Coleman airbed, which compensates for any small sagging in the ropes that our weight might cause, romping or sleeping.
                                          However, I agree that it's much quicker to set-up and dismantle a slat bed, especially if transport-space/ weight is not a consideration.

                                          BTW, I make my bed-frames convertible  - single or double options; - it's only 3 extra pieces of wood to be wrought and a little more workshop-time. . So, if you know you will be attending an event alone, leave the double-width headboard and head & foot rails at home, and just take the single-width ones.
                                          Anyone who is curious about my designs, you can view my work in the Medieval Encampment Photo Files, under "Messire Baker's Camp and Work".

                                          YiS,
                                          Matthewe



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