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Re: [MedievalSawdust] Re:Tent poles

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  • Electric Wolf
    I ve heard that I never want to use a closet rod for anything vertically supported but if your experience says otherwise I m willing to give it a shot. *hands
    Message 1 of 17 , Mar 18, 2010
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      I've heard that I never want to use a closet rod for anything vertically supported but if your experience says otherwise I'm willing to give it a shot.

      *hands back an extinguished hamster*

      On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 10:17 AM, AqA WyrdWynd <wyrdwynd@...> wrote:


      yhey sel two in dia   closet rods in wood though

      pete

      have at ye with a flock of flaming yodeling hamsters !!!



      --- On Thu, 3/18/10, Oswald Frank <oswald@...> wrote:

      From: Oswald Frank <oswald@...>
      Subject: [MedievalSawdust] Re:Tent poles
      To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Thursday, March 18, 2010, 11:16 AM


      Most 2x2's and 2x4's I've seen in big-box lumber stores is of lower
      quality than I'd like for tent poles. It's just not straight enough.

      If you have a Lowe's handy, they carry a higher grade of 2x4's that's
      been dried much more and I've found to stay very straight, even after
      ripping in half. If you need to do that, perhaps there's someone in your
      area who will share his table saw for a few minutes. (I also understand
      if you choose not to use power tools.) I found it to be well worth the
      small premium they charge.

      Best,
      Oswald



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    • Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart
      I use closet rod for banner poles and occasionally as a closet rod. For tent poles I by 2x10 or 2x12 s and rip them down to size. The yellow pine that I get
      Message 2 of 17 , Mar 19, 2010
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        I use closet rod for banner poles and occasionally
        as a closet rod.

        For tent poles I by 2x10 or 2x12's and rip them
        down to size. The yellow pine that I get that size
        board in locally is stronger that the fir or what ever
        else they use for the 2x4 and 2x6's. and is usually
        a better grade of wood... I do sort through the
        stack a little to pick nice looking boards too.

        Though I am considering making beefier poles
        for the corners of my 18x18 pavilion. There is
        a lot of stress on the corner poles as you are 
        first setting it up. Once it is up and you have a few 
        more poles it's not too bad. I'm probably over 
        engineering it..... 


         
        Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart

        Aude Aliquid Dignum
        ' Dare Something Worthy '



        From: Electric Wolf <elecwolf@...>
        To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Thu, March 18, 2010 11:20:42 PM
        Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] Re:Tent poles

         

        I've heard that I never want to use a closet rod for anything vertically supported but if your experience says otherwise I'm willing to give it a shot.

        *hands back an extinguished hamster*

        On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 10:17 AM, AqA WyrdWynd <wyrdwynd@yahoo. com> wrote:


        yhey sel two in dia   closet rods in wood though

        pete

        have at ye with a flock of flaming yodeling hamsters !!!



        --- On Thu, 3/18/10, Oswald Frank <oswald@idlelion. net> wrote:

        From: Oswald Frank <oswald@idlelion. net>
        Subject: [MedievalSawdust] Re:Tent poles
        To: medievalsawdust@ yahoogroups. com
        Date: Thursday, March 18, 2010, 11:16 AM


        Most 2x2's and 2x4's I've seen in big-box lumber stores is of lower
        quality than I'd like for tent poles. It's just not straight enough.

        If you have a Lowe's handy, they carry a higher grade of 2x4's that's
        been dried much more and I've found to stay very straight, even after
        ripping in half. If you need to do that, perhaps there's someone in your
        area who will share his table saw for a few minutes. (I also understand
        if you choose not to use power tools.) I found it to be well worth the
        small premium they charge.

        Best,
        Oswald



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      • duncan_of_carmarthen
        I ve been following the thread for a little bit. I have some basic tools (table saw, circular saw, orbital sander, router, drill, etc) and I m very fortunate
        Message 3 of 17 , Mar 19, 2010
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          I've been following the thread for a little bit. I have some basic tools (table saw, circular saw, orbital sander, router, drill, etc) and I'm very fortunate to have a garage, so I have a little room to work with. My question is.. I have a friend that has a day pavilion that they use at the list field. They would like to add side walls to it, and were looking at oak poles. I have not been able to find 2x2 or 2x4 oak lumber. I have, however, located some 1x2. What are the thoughts to the strength of gluing 2 together to get a 2x2? (Ok, actually 1 5/8x 1 5/8.. but you get the picture) and using a dowel or screw to help hold them together? Plan on cutting them into octagon shapes. I'm looking at 4 straight 72", and 3 at 109".. the 109" will be broken down to 2 poles per `big' pole. Not sure yet how I'm going to combine.. sleeve, staggered construction, etc.
          The walls will be made out of canvas, sides at maybe 4-5' deep, and 15'-ish wide. Poles in the 4 corners, 3 in the center. I can probably convince them to add 1 more along the back side. I like the idea of all-thread pins to be able to screw on a finial, as well as rounding the end to prevent sharp stress points on the canvas.
          Would the glued 1x2 (making roughly 2x2) oak be strong enough to weather a few seasons as the support poles for the canvas side walls? I'm thinking so, just don't want to go through all the effort of that, to have them break the first time used.. during the list!.

          Thank you

          Ld. Duncan of Carmarthen
          Northern Ansteorra

          --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, "Electric Wolf" <elecwolf@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hello all,
          >
          > I'm looking to get a large order of tent poles.
          > Since I am working in my living room with hand tools, I don't
          > see myself making my own in time for Lilies but if it is possible
          > I would be willing to give it a try...
          > I've looked at Panther Primitives since they are the only ones
          > I have found so far that offer pre-made ones, but that is
          > prohibitive...
          >
        • brother_wm
          ... I have two nearby outfits that make custom cabinets and also do wood floors. Ask if you can have at their burn pile. I regularly get 3/4 to 1 by up to 3
          Message 4 of 17 , Mar 19, 2010
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            --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, "duncan_of_carmarthen" <rdavis1971@...> wrote:
            >
            > I've been following the thread for a little bit. I have some basic tools {snip}>
            > Ld. Duncan of Carmarthen
            > Northern Ansteorra
            >

            I have two nearby outfits that make custom cabinets and also do wood floors.

            Ask if you can have at their burn pile. I regularly get 3/4" to 1" by up to 3 inch oak, maple and poplar in 8' lengths. A lot of times the pieces have a taper to it, but for tent poles, that is OK when you glue-up 6 or 8 to make a 4" diameter pole.

            Free is ALWAYS good.

            RileyG
          • Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart
            unless you can get a really good flat surface for the glue joint you are gonna want to use screws. But oak is probably more than you need unless it is for the
            Message 5 of 17 , Mar 19, 2010
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              unless you can get a really good flat surface for 
              the glue joint you are gonna want to use screws.

              But oak is probably more than you need unless
              it is for the visual appearance of it

              Ripping down a 2x12 or 2x10 for the poles would 
              strong enough and a LOT cheaper
               
              Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart

              Aude Aliquid Dignum
              ' Dare Something Worthy '



              From: duncan_of_carmarthen <rdavis1971@...>
              To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Fri, March 19, 2010 11:20:55 AM
              Subject: [MedievalSawdust] Re: Tent poles

               

              I've been following the thread for a little bit. I have some basic tools (table saw, circular saw, orbital sander, router, drill, etc) and I'm very fortunate to have a garage, so I have a little room to work with. My question is.. I have a friend that has a day pavilion that they use at the list field. They would like to add side walls to it, and were looking at oak poles. I have not been able to find 2x2 or 2x4 oak lumber. I have, however, located some 1x2. What are the thoughts to the strength of gluing 2 together to get a 2x2? (Ok, actually 1 5/8x 1 5/8.. but you get the picture) and using a dowel or screw to help hold them together? Plan on cutting them into octagon shapes. I'm looking at 4 straight 72", and 3 at 109".. the 109" will be broken down to 2 poles per `big' pole. Not sure yet how I'm going to combine.. sleeve, staggered construction, etc.
              The walls will be made out of canvas, sides at maybe 4-5' deep, and 15'-ish wide. Poles in the 4 corners, 3 in the center. I can probably convince them to add 1 more along the back side. I like the idea of all-thread pins to be able to screw on a finial, as well as rounding the end to prevent sharp stress points on the canvas.
              Would the glued 1x2 (making roughly 2x2) oak be strong enough to weather a few seasons as the support poles for the canvas side walls? I'm thinking so, just don't want to go through all the effort of that, to have them break the first time used.. during the list!.

              Thank you

              Ld. Duncan of Carmarthen
              Northern Ansteorra

              --- In medievalsawdust@ yahoogroups. com, "Electric Wolf" <elecwolf@.. .> wrote:
              >
              > Hello all,
              >
              > I'm looking to get a large order of tent poles.
              > Since I am working in my living room with hand tools, I don't
              > see myself making my own in time for Lilies but if it is possible
              > I would be willing to give it a try...
              > I've looked at Panther Primitives since they are the only ones
              > I have found so far that offer pre-made ones, but that is
              > prohibitive. ..
              >


            • Alex Haugland
              If you haven t already, check for a real lumber store in your area as opposed to a box hardware store in your area, if you want real hardwood. The cost is
              Message 6 of 17 , Mar 19, 2010
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                If you haven't already, check for a real lumber store in your area as opposed to a box hardware store in your area, if you want real hardwood.  The cost is usually signiticantly cheaper and the quality of the wood is usually better.  They often sell oak and other hardwoods, including other options that may be native to your area or less expensive than oak, even, and just as strong or stronger.   What you'd be after would likely be 8/4 (pronounced eight quarter, meaning 8x 1/4" or ~2" thick) wood that has been surfaced on 2 sides (saves you having to have a jointer and planer to make it flat and you can square up the edges on the table saw).    If you do decide to laminate two pieces of oak 1x2 together, either use a lot of screws or a lot of clamps, if you want them to glue well.  If you're going the clamping route, use some of the 1x2's that you haven't glued yet (or better yet, your first 2 glued-together 2x2's or a pair of 2x4's on edge) to sandwich the two pieces you're gluing together and clamp them down.

                Imagine a clamp radiating pressure out from the point where it touches the surface, top and bottom, in a  90 degree cone (or for parallel jaw clamps, a wedge).  The thicker the material on either side of the glue joint, the larger an area of the glue joint that cone covers.   Ideally you want the cones to touch each other on the edges to exert even pressure over the entire piece.  This means, for ideal pressure when gluing two one inch thick pieces, without any cauls (spacer boards) to increase the area of pressure, you need a clamp every two inches.  With a 1" thick caul, that is reduced to a clamp every 4".  A 2" caul = 1 clamp every 6 ", etc.   You do eventually hit a point where the pressure the clamp can exert over the area of the glue joint is too little to get a good joint, but that's usually when you start pushing a foot or more between clamps. 

                One other trick you can use to help with clamping pressure and improved glue joints is to examine the wood you buy for any bowing along its length.  Box store lumber (even hardwoods) frequently is warped from poor drying and storage.  To use that warp to your advantage, if two pieces have a bow to them,  glue them together such that when they touch on the ends, they bow out in the middle and don't touch.  Start clamping them in the middle and work your way to the outsides.  As you clamp them together, the bow in the wood exerts pressure on the ends forcing them together and improving the quality of your finished glue joint.

                From personal experience, with all-thread for the pins, make the length of you pins just slightly longer than the minimum needed to clear the canvas and the nut glued inside or to the finial.  It can take forever to set up and tear down if you have to sit spinning the finials trying to get everything screwed down in place. 

                --Alysaundre Weldon d'Ath
                Barony of Adiantum, An Tir

                duncan_of_carmarthen wrote:
                 

                I've been following the thread for a little bit. I have some basic tools (table saw, circular saw, orbital sander, router, drill, etc) and I'm very fortunate to have a garage, so I have a little room to work with. My question is.. I have a friend that has a day pavilion that they use at the list field. They would like to add side walls to it, and were looking at oak poles. I have not been able to find 2x2 or 2x4 oak lumber. I have, however, located some 1x2. What are the thoughts to the strength of gluing 2 together to get a 2x2? (Ok, actually 1 5/8x 1 5/8.. but you get the picture) and using a dowel or screw to help hold them together? Plan on cutting them into octagon shapes. I'm looking at 4 straight 72", and 3 at 109".. the 109" will be broken down to 2 poles per `big' pole. Not sure yet how I'm going to combine.. sleeve, staggered construction, etc.
                The walls will be made out of canvas, sides at maybe 4-5' deep, and 15'-ish wide. Poles in the 4 corners, 3 in the center. I can probably convince them to add 1 more along the back side. I like the idea of all-thread pins to be able to screw on a finial, as well as rounding the end to prevent sharp stress points on the canvas.
                Would the glued 1x2 (making roughly 2x2) oak be strong enough to weather a few seasons as the support poles for the canvas side walls? I'm thinking so, just don't want to go through all the effort of that, to have them break the first time used.. during the list!.

                Thank you

                Ld. Duncan of Carmarthen
                Northern Ansteorra

                --- In medievalsawdust@ yahoogroups. com, "Electric Wolf" <elecwolf@.. .> wrote:
                >
                > Hello all,
                >
                > I'm looking to get a large order of tent poles.
                > Since I am working in my living room with hand tools, I don't
                > see myself making my own in time for Lilies but if it is possible
                > I would be willing to give it a try...
                > I've looked at Panther Primitives since they are the only ones
                > I have found so far that offer pre-made ones, but that is
                > prohibitive. ..
                >


              • powell.sean@comcast.net
                I have actually bought red-oak 2x4 s at my local Home Depot. unlike some my local one has a good selection of wood where as I go to Lowes for flooring,
                Message 7 of 17 , Mar 19, 2010
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                  I have actually bought red-oak 2x4's at my local Home Depot. unlike some my local one has a good selection of wood where as I go to Lowes for flooring, lightfixtures and more decorating type stuff.

                   

                  If you pay attention to reverse the grain direction then a laminated 2x2 is actually more dimensionally stable then a solid 2x2. It is also less prone to splitting as the split will not cross the glue boundary. A lot of what looks like solid craftman furniture is made from 4 pieces of 1/4 sawn oak that are milled into trapazoids and then glued to a 5th interior square piece. This is the only way to get a cross radial grain structure on all 4 sides instead of just 2.

                   

                  For laminating an oak table top you would want perfectly flat and straight edges which would require a joiner. For something as flexible as 1x2 you could screw it together but then the screws would show. I would do it with a F**k-load of clamps. If you take a piece of heavy plywood and screw a STRAIGHT 2x4 to it and another mostly straight one 1.75 inches away then you could line it with wax paper (incase the glue drips you don't want to glue your post to the form) and then use pairs of shims to squeeze the 2 boards to the straight 2x4 and make a laminated pole. This is often done when laminating boards into making an arch but your arch is straight.

                   

                  Now that I think of it you could also take 2 piece of angle iron, a whole bunch of laminated pole pairs and 1 good bar clamp for every 9-12" of pole length and clamp a bunch as a unit. This is similar to laying up a butcher-block table-top out of poles. It does help if you run each one through a planer first to be certain you don't have any thin sections.

                   

                  Generally though I've had good luck with cheap 2x2's. When I have ripped 2x4's there is invariable a knot someplace that turns half of it into kindling. At that point I'd rather just pick out good 2x2's (Locally that means Lowes, my Home Depot doesn't cary 2x2's except in pressure treated and those ALWAYS warp)

                   

                  I have also found that painting them does a lot to reduce warpage. YMMV.

                   

                  Good luck!

                  Sean

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "duncan_of_carmarthen" <rdavis1971@...>
                  To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Friday, March 19, 2010 11:20:55 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
                  Subject: [MedievalSawdust] Re: Tent poles

                  I've been following the thread for a little bit.  I have some basic tools (table saw, circular saw, orbital sander, router, drill, etc) and I'm very fortunate to have a garage, so I have a little room to work with.  My question is.. I have a friend that has a day pavilion that they use at the list field.  They would like to add side walls to it, and were looking at oak poles.  I have not been able to find 2x2 or 2x4 oak lumber.  I have, however, located some 1x2.  What are the thoughts to the strength of gluing 2 together to get a 2x2?  (Ok, actually 1 5/8x 1 5/8.. but you get the picture) and using a dowel or screw to help hold them together?  Plan on cutting them into octagon shapes.  I'm looking at 4 straight 72", and 3 at 109".. the 109" will be broken down to 2 poles per `big' pole.  Not sure yet how I'm going to combine.. sleeve, staggered construction, etc.
                  The walls will be made out of canvas, sides at maybe 4-5' deep, and 15'-ish wide.  Poles in the 4 corners, 3 in the center.  I can probably convince them to add 1 more along the back side.  I like the idea of all-thread pins to be able to screw on a finial, as well as rounding the end to prevent sharp stress points on the canvas.
                  Would the glued 1x2 (making roughly 2x2) oak be strong enough to weather a few seasons as the support poles for the canvas side walls?  I'm thinking so, just don't want to go through all the effort of that, to have them break the first time used.. during the list!.

                  Thank you

                  Ld. Duncan of Carmarthen
                  Northern Ansteorra

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