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Re: New.. Intro~ Hi..Want to Make A 2-Wheel Cart For a Portable Oven

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  • unknown
    Thanks for all the suggestions on the cart. The cable spool ends were free, not a big deal if there not used. I would like the cart to be period looking as
    Message 1 of 10 , Feb 28, 2010
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      Thanks for all the suggestions on the cart. The cable spool ends were free, not a big deal if there not used. I would like the cart to be period looking as much as possible with my basic skills and knowledge. I hope to find cart plans, why re-invent the wheel...lol.


      Thanks

      Theresa
      --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart <baronconal@...> wrote:
      >
      > put some sort of support on the cart somewhere so that it
      > can sit with the oven on it in a 'mostly level' manner without
      > someone standing there holding it.
      >
      > I want a cart too..... and I'm probably gonna over engineer it.
      >
      > I'm willing to admit that up front.
      > Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart
      >
      > Aude Aliquid Dignum
      > ' Dare Something Worthy '
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ________________________________
      > From: "conradh@..." <conradh@...>
      > To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Sun, February 28, 2010 5:05:23 PM
      > Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] New.. Intro~ Hi..Want to Make A 2-Wheel Cart For a Portable Oven
      >
      >
      > On Sun, February 28, 2010 12:28 pm, Sean Powell wrote:
      >
      > > The first is to have a wide hub. I believe the complete blacksmith has
      > > some recommendations for wheel hub length to diameter but on a 36 wheel I
      > > would suggest at least 4" of bearing surface. I like black-iron pipe from
      > > home depot as an axle. Very strong for it's weight. Cross drilling and
      > > using a large washer plus cotter-pin is no more anachronistic then
      > > wore-spool wheels and they can be removed for easy transport.
      >
      > Wide hubs also have a strength advantage when wheels are strained and
      > twisted by uneven ground. For a more cosmetic version of his suggestion,
      > you could bore a blind hole into a round or squarish block of wood and
      > have it masquerade as a traditional wooden axle-end. A wedge would hold
      > it to the pipe inside (and also hold the wheel on). In other words, the
      > block serves as the "washer" and the wedge replaces the cotter pin.
      > >
      >
      > >
      > > Why a 2-wheel cart and not a 4-wheel wagon? 200lbs is burdensome to keep
      > > balanced and unstable on it's own (without the donkey). You can add a
      > > collapsing 3rd leg to support the handles level when not pushing it but
      > > there is always the risk of it collapsing when you don't want it to. Your
      > > basic red-ryder wagon framework is period and actually rather convenient.
      > > You might be able to thicken the hub area and carefully
      > > re-drill holes for the axles and mount them with either lag-bolts or
      > > threaded rod and castle nuts. The last solution is what we did your our
      > > trebuchet wheels. 16" diameter 1.5" thick and 2.25" length hubs on 3/4"
      > > axles. Works nicely.
      >
      > Or do what the owners of carts have done for thousands of years--learn to
      > load in a balanced way. If your oven is going to be most of the load, how
      > about sliding it in until the desired balance is achieved, (I would prefer
      > about 20 pounds weight on the shafts, so that I _know_ which way it will
      > want to tilt, but arrange it however you like) and then tack a cleat to
      > the bed of the cart so the oven can't slip forward on a bump. The cleat
      > defines how far you slide the oven in, so it loads right every time, and
      > then a bit of rope can keep it from slipping back.
      >
      > The advantages of two-wheeled carts are economy, ease of construction and
      > the ability to maneuver in less space. If you go the four-wheel route,
      > you may discover that the wagon has a _very_ large turning circle unless
      > you build a pivoting front axle assembly, and that makes the whole project
      > considerably more complicated. Wheelwrights used to make jokes about
      > wagons built by house carpenters, because they needed the whole of the
      > village common just to turn around in....
      >
      > Free advice, and probably worth every penny. Good luck with your project,
      > whichever choices you try.
      >
      > Ulfhedinn
      > >
      > > Sean
      > >
      > >
      > > On 2/28/2010 1:21 PM, unknown wrote:
      > >
      > >>
      > >> I am a cook more than a woodworker, but I want to make a 2 wheel cart
      > >> to drag a portable oven around. Something small and very simple, but
      > >> it needs to hold some weight. I have 3 sets of 36" round wood cable
      > >> spool ends to make wheels. I was thinking of bolting 2 sets to make a
      > >> 1½" wide wheel.
      > >>
      > >>
      > >> The best I can describe without 10,000 words is a donkey cart or a
      > >> Mormon hand cart with out spokes (which would be more complex).
      > >>
      > >>
      > >> I am stuck at the axle part. Getting the wheel to go round without
      > >> wobbling or dumping a 200 pound oven to the ground, or taking up the
      > >> entire trailer.
      > >>
      > >> I have made a couple break down thrones and a simple box.
      > >>
      > >>
      > >> Does anyone have plans even I can follow?
      > >>
      > >>
      > >> HELP
      > >>
      > >>
      > >> Theresa
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>
      > >> ------------ --------- --------- ------
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>
      > >
      >
    • Sean Powell
      My first instinct is the Oseberg Cart but that s a 4-wheel job. http://abe.midco.net/vikingskald/Oseberg_cart/fullcart_files/cart_files/cart.jpg ... but you
      Message 2 of 10 , Mar 1 3:32 AM
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        My first instinct is the Oseberg Cart but that's a 4-wheel job.
        http://abe.midco.net/vikingskald/Oseberg_cart/fullcart_files/cart_files/cart.jpg
        ... but you will notice how wide the hubs are for wheel stability.

        Flip through Karen Larsdatter's links until you find a few you like the
        design of and then we can talk construction specifics.
        http://www.larsdatter.com/wagons.htm

        P.S. I'm a house-builder when it comes to carts. My first siege engine
        had 4 wheels but no way to steer so it couldn't even turn around in the
        whole town green. My ballista base is a 2-wheel job but it requires 2
        people to play the part of the mule over rough terrain. Sticking to
        medieval proportions is probably best. :)

        Sean

        On 3/1/2010 12:05 AM, unknown wrote:
        > Thanks for all the suggestions on the cart. The cable spool ends were free, not a big deal if there not used. I would like the cart to be period looking as much as possible with my basic skills and knowledge. I hope to find cart plans, why re-invent the wheel...lol.
        >
        >
        > Thanks
        >
        > Theresa
        > --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart<baronconal@...> wrote:
        >
        >> put some sort of support on the cart somewhere so that it
        >> can sit with the oven on it in a 'mostly level' manner without
        >> someone standing there holding it.
        >>
        >> I want a cart too..... and I'm probably gonna over engineer it.
        >>
        >> I'm willing to admit that up front.
        >> Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart
        >>
        >> Aude Aliquid Dignum
        >> ' Dare Something Worthy'
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >> ________________________________
        >> From: "conradh@..."<conradh@...>
        >> To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
        >> Sent: Sun, February 28, 2010 5:05:23 PM
        >> Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] New.. Intro~ Hi..Want to Make A 2-Wheel Cart For a Portable Oven
        >>
        >>
        >> On Sun, February 28, 2010 12:28 pm, Sean Powell wrote:
        >>
        >>
        >>> The first is to have a wide hub. I believe the complete blacksmith has
        >>> some recommendations for wheel hub length to diameter but on a 36 wheel I
        >>> would suggest at least 4" of bearing surface. I like black-iron pipe from
        >>> home depot as an axle. Very strong for it's weight. Cross drilling and
        >>> using a large washer plus cotter-pin is no more anachronistic then
        >>> wore-spool wheels and they can be removed for easy transport.
        >>>
        >> Wide hubs also have a strength advantage when wheels are strained and
        >> twisted by uneven ground. For a more cosmetic version of his suggestion,
        >> you could bore a blind hole into a round or squarish block of wood and
        >> have it masquerade as a traditional wooden axle-end. A wedge would hold
        >> it to the pipe inside (and also hold the wheel on). In other words, the
        >> block serves as the "washer" and the wedge replaces the cotter pin.
        >>
        >>>
        >>
        >>> Why a 2-wheel cart and not a 4-wheel wagon? 200lbs is burdensome to keep
        >>> balanced and unstable on it's own (without the donkey). You can add a
        >>> collapsing 3rd leg to support the handles level when not pushing it but
        >>> there is always the risk of it collapsing when you don't want it to. Your
        >>> basic red-ryder wagon framework is period and actually rather convenient.
        >>> You might be able to thicken the hub area and carefully
        >>> re-drill holes for the axles and mount them with either lag-bolts or
        >>> threaded rod and castle nuts. The last solution is what we did your our
        >>> trebuchet wheels. 16" diameter 1.5" thick and 2.25" length hubs on 3/4"
        >>> axles. Works nicely.
        >>>
        >> Or do what the owners of carts have done for thousands of years--learn to
        >> load in a balanced way. If your oven is going to be most of the load, how
        >> about sliding it in until the desired balance is achieved, (I would prefer
        >> about 20 pounds weight on the shafts, so that I _know_ which way it will
        >> want to tilt, but arrange it however you like) and then tack a cleat to
        >> the bed of the cart so the oven can't slip forward on a bump. The cleat
        >> defines how far you slide the oven in, so it loads right every time, and
        >> then a bit of rope can keep it from slipping back.
        >>
        >> The advantages of two-wheeled carts are economy, ease of construction and
        >> the ability to maneuver in less space. If you go the four-wheel route,
        >> you may discover that the wagon has a _very_ large turning circle unless
        >> you build a pivoting front axle assembly, and that makes the whole project
        >> considerably more complicated. Wheelwrights used to make jokes about
        >> wagons built by house carpenters, because they needed the whole of the
        >> village common just to turn around in....
        >>
        >> Free advice, and probably worth every penny. Good luck with your project,
        >> whichever choices you try.
        >>
        >> Ulfhedinn
        >>
        >>> Sean
        >>>
        >>>
        >>> On 2/28/2010 1:21 PM, unknown wrote:
        >>>
        >>>
        >>>> I am a cook more than a woodworker, but I want to make a 2 wheel cart
        >>>> to drag a portable oven around. Something small and very simple, but
        >>>> it needs to hold some weight. I have 3 sets of 36" round wood cable
        >>>> spool ends to make wheels. I was thinking of bolting 2 sets to make a
        >>>> 1½" wide wheel.
        >>>>
        >>>>
        >>>> The best I can describe without 10,000 words is a donkey cart or a
        >>>> Mormon hand cart with out spokes (which would be more complex).
        >>>>
        >>>>
        >>>> I am stuck at the axle part. Getting the wheel to go round without
        >>>> wobbling or dumping a 200 pound oven to the ground, or taking up the
        >>>> entire trailer.
        >>>>
        >>>> I have made a couple break down thrones and a simple box.
        >>>>
        >>>>
        >>>> Does anyone have plans even I can follow?
        >>>>
        >>>>
        >>>> HELP
        >>>>
        >>>>
        >>>> Theresa
        >>>>
        >>>>
        >>>>
        >>>>
        >>>>
        >>>> ------------ --------- --------- ------
        >>>>
        >>>>
        >>>>
        >>>>
        >>>>
        >>>>
        >>>>
        >>>
        >>
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
      • conradh@efn.org
        ... The carving might be a little intimidating for her :-) Also, IIRC the Oseberg wagon has a pivoting front axle rig with a king bolt, doesn t it? The way
        Message 3 of 10 , Mar 1 2:20 PM
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          On Mon, March 1, 2010 3:32 am, Sean Powell wrote:
          > My first instinct is the Oseberg Cart but that's a 4-wheel job.
          > http://abe.midco.net/vikingskald/Oseberg_cart/fullcart_files/cart_files/ca
          > rt.jpg ... but you will notice how wide the hubs are for wheel stability.
          >
          >
          The carving might be a little intimidating for her :-)

          Also, IIRC the Oseberg wagon has a pivoting front axle rig with a king
          bolt, doesn't it? The way the tugs run down to the ends of the front axle
          certainly suggest that. (Russian rural wagons still use this harness lead
          today--I wonder who came up with it first?)

          As we've both mentioned, a wagon without steerable front wheels might as
          well be on rails for all the turning it can do. A two-wheel cart can be
          turned in its own length, and bring the load right to the spot you want
          it.

          Ulfhedinn
        • Bruce S. R. Lee
          As reconstructed, the Oseberg cart does NOT steer, there are a number of pegs that stop any articulation of the front axle or framework. That said, it
          Message 4 of 10 , Mar 2 6:36 AM
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            As reconstructed, the Oseberg cart does NOT steer, there are a number
            of pegs that stop any articulation of the front axle or framework.

            That said, it certainly looks like there was a steerable 4 wheeled
            cart somewhere in its ancestry, just like a 'Glastonbury' chair looks
            like there was some sort of folding chair or stool somewhere back in
            its ancestry, despite which all the existant examples of any
            antiquity do NOT fold.

            The interesting part is WHY the Oseberg cart does not have a
            steerable front axle. Was it because the cart was 'made over' from an
            old or favorite cart and just pegged to keep it together to go into
            the grave, or was there some symbolic/religious reason? You also have
            to consider that just about everything in the grave was crushed flat
            & broken into pieces by the overburden (dirt) and had to be conserved
            with limited technology (no freeze drying or P.E.G.) then put
            together like a giant jigsaw puzzle


            regards
            Brusi of Orkney

            At 09:20 AM 2/03/2010, you wrote:
            >On Mon, March 1, 2010 3:32 am, Sean Powell wrote:
            > > My first instinct is the Oseberg Cart but that's a 4-wheel job.
            > > http://abe.midco.net/vikingskald/Oseberg_cart/fullcart_files/cart_files/ca
            > > rt.jpg ... but you will notice how wide the hubs are for wheel stability.
            > >
            > >
            >The carving might be a little intimidating for her :-)
            >
            >Also, IIRC the Oseberg wagon has a pivoting front axle rig with a king
            >bolt, doesn't it? The way the tugs run down to the ends of the front axle
            >certainly suggest that. (Russian rural wagons still use this harness lead
            >today--I wonder who came up with it first?)
            >
            >As we've both mentioned, a wagon without steerable front wheels might as
            >well be on rails for all the turning it can do. A two-wheel cart can be
            >turned in its own length, and bring the load right to the spot you want
            >it.
            >
            >Ulfhedinn
          • unknown
            Thanks for the temptation; I m still trying to figure out how to make one wheel...4 wheels a carving, indeed! Better yet... I double dare you to make it for
            Message 5 of 10 , Mar 2 8:36 AM
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              Thanks for the temptation; I'm still trying to figure out how to make one wheel...4 wheels a carving, indeed!


              Better yet... I double dare you to make it for me!

              Theresa



              --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, Sean Powell <powell.sean@...> wrote:
              >
              > My first instinct is the Oseberg Cart but that's a 4-wheel job.
              > http://abe.midco.net/vikingskald/Oseberg_cart/fullcart_files/cart_files/cart.jpg
              > ... but you will notice how wide the hubs are for wheel stability.
              >
              > Flip through Karen Larsdatter's links until you find a few you like the
              > design of and then we can talk construction specifics.
              > http://www.larsdatter.com/wagons.htm
              >
              > P.S. I'm a house-builder when it comes to carts. My first siege engine
              > had 4 wheels but no way to steer so it couldn't even turn around in the
              > whole town green. My ballista base is a 2-wheel job but it requires 2
              > people to play the part of the mule over rough terrain. Sticking to
              > medieval proportions is probably best. :)
              >
              > Sean
              >
              > On 3/1/2010 12:05 AM, unknown wrote:
              > > Thanks for all the suggestions on the cart. The cable spool ends were free, not a big deal if there not used. I would like the cart to be period looking as much as possible with my basic skills and knowledge. I hope to find cart plans, why re-invent the wheel...lol.
              > >
              > >
              > > Thanks
              > >
              > > Theresa
              > > --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart<baronconal@> wrote:
              > >
              > >> put some sort of support on the cart somewhere so that it
              > >> can sit with the oven on it in a 'mostly level' manner without
              > >> someone standing there holding it.
              > >>
              > >> I want a cart too..... and I'm probably gonna over engineer it.
              > >>
              > >> I'm willing to admit that up front.
              > >> Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart
              > >>
              > >> Aude Aliquid Dignum
              > >> ' Dare Something Worthy'
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>
              > >> ________________________________
              > >> From: "conradh@"<conradh@>
              > >> To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
              > >> Sent: Sun, February 28, 2010 5:05:23 PM
              > >> Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] New.. Intro~ Hi..Want to Make A 2-Wheel Cart For a Portable Oven
              > >>
              > >>
              > >> On Sun, February 28, 2010 12:28 pm, Sean Powell wrote:
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>> The first is to have a wide hub. I believe the complete blacksmith has
              > >>> some recommendations for wheel hub length to diameter but on a 36 wheel I
              > >>> would suggest at least 4" of bearing surface. I like black-iron pipe from
              > >>> home depot as an axle. Very strong for it's weight. Cross drilling and
              > >>> using a large washer plus cotter-pin is no more anachronistic then
              > >>> wore-spool wheels and they can be removed for easy transport.
              > >>>
              > >> Wide hubs also have a strength advantage when wheels are strained and
              > >> twisted by uneven ground. For a more cosmetic version of his suggestion,
              > >> you could bore a blind hole into a round or squarish block of wood and
              > >> have it masquerade as a traditional wooden axle-end. A wedge would hold
              > >> it to the pipe inside (and also hold the wheel on). In other words, the
              > >> block serves as the "washer" and the wedge replaces the cotter pin.
              > >>
              > >>>
              > >>
              > >>> Why a 2-wheel cart and not a 4-wheel wagon? 200lbs is burdensome to keep
              > >>> balanced and unstable on it's own (without the donkey). You can add a
              > >>> collapsing 3rd leg to support the handles level when not pushing it but
              > >>> there is always the risk of it collapsing when you don't want it to. Your
              > >>> basic red-ryder wagon framework is period and actually rather convenient.
              > >>> You might be able to thicken the hub area and carefully
              > >>> re-drill holes for the axles and mount them with either lag-bolts or
              > >>> threaded rod and castle nuts. The last solution is what we did your our
              > >>> trebuchet wheels. 16" diameter 1.5" thick and 2.25" length hubs on 3/4"
              > >>> axles. Works nicely.
              > >>>
              > >> Or do what the owners of carts have done for thousands of years--learn to
              > >> load in a balanced way. If your oven is going to be most of the load, how
              > >> about sliding it in until the desired balance is achieved, (I would prefer
              > >> about 20 pounds weight on the shafts, so that I _know_ which way it will
              > >> want to tilt, but arrange it however you like) and then tack a cleat to
              > >> the bed of the cart so the oven can't slip forward on a bump. The cleat
              > >> defines how far you slide the oven in, so it loads right every time, and
              > >> then a bit of rope can keep it from slipping back.
              > >>
              > >> The advantages of two-wheeled carts are economy, ease of construction and
              > >> the ability to maneuver in less space. If you go the four-wheel route,
              > >> you may discover that the wagon has a _very_ large turning circle unless
              > >> you build a pivoting front axle assembly, and that makes the whole project
              > >> considerably more complicated. Wheelwrights used to make jokes about
              > >> wagons built by house carpenters, because they needed the whole of the
              > >> village common just to turn around in....
              > >>
              > >> Free advice, and probably worth every penny. Good luck with your project,
              > >> whichever choices you try.
              > >>
              > >> Ulfhedinn
              > >>
              > >>> Sean
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>> On 2/28/2010 1:21 PM, unknown wrote:
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>>> I am a cook more than a woodworker, but I want to make a 2 wheel cart
              > >>>> to drag a portable oven around. Something small and very simple, but
              > >>>> it needs to hold some weight. I have 3 sets of 36" round wood cable
              > >>>> spool ends to make wheels. I was thinking of bolting 2 sets to make a
              > >>>> 1½" wide wheel.
              > >>>>
              > >>>>
              > >>>> The best I can describe without 10,000 words is a donkey cart or a
              > >>>> Mormon hand cart with out spokes (which would be more complex).
              > >>>>
              > >>>>
              > >>>> I am stuck at the axle part. Getting the wheel to go round without
              > >>>> wobbling or dumping a 200 pound oven to the ground, or taking up the
              > >>>> entire trailer.
              > >>>>
              > >>>> I have made a couple break down thrones and a simple box.
              > >>>>
              > >>>>
              > >>>> Does anyone have plans even I can follow?
              > >>>>
              > >>>>
              > >>>> HELP
              > >>>>
              > >>>>
              > >>>> Theresa
              > >>>>
              > >>>>
              > >>>>
              > >>>>
              > >>>>
              > >>>> ------------ --------- --------- ------
              > >>>>
              > >>>>
              > >>>>
              > >>>>
              > >>>>
              > >>>>
              > >>>>
              > >>>
              > >>
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > ------------------------------------
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
            • conradh@efn.org
              ... Brusi--thakka ydr fyrir! I ve never had the good fortune to see the actual wagon; it wasn t included in the only good Norse museum tour to come within my
              Message 6 of 10 , Mar 2 1:50 PM
              • 0 Attachment
                On Tue, March 2, 2010 6:36 am, Bruce S. R. Lee wrote:
                > As reconstructed, the Oseberg cart does NOT steer, there are a number
                > of pegs that stop any articulation of the front axle or framework.
                >
                > That said, it certainly looks like there was a steerable 4 wheeled
                > cart somewhere in its ancestry, just like a 'Glastonbury' chair looks like
                > there was some sort of folding chair or stool somewhere back in its
                > ancestry, despite which all the existant examples of any antiquity do NOT
                > fold.
                >
                > The interesting part is WHY the Oseberg cart does not have a
                > steerable front axle. Was it because the cart was 'made over' from an old
                > or favorite cart and just pegged to keep it together to go into the grave,
                > or was there some symbolic/religious reason? You also have to consider
                > that just about everything in the grave was crushed flat & broken into
                > pieces by the overburden (dirt) and had to be conserved with limited
                > technology (no freeze drying or P.E.G.) then put together like a giant
                > jigsaw puzzle
                >
                >
                > regards Brusi of Orkney
                >
                >
                Brusi--thakka ydr fyrir! I've never had the good fortune to see the
                actual wagon; it wasn't included in the only good Norse museum tour to
                come within my reach. So I've seen a few photos, and those were of the
                reconstruction.

                Just as you suggest, I looked at the harness and assumed. And of course,
                the reconstructors had to make their own assumptions, such as whether that
                little bit of organic matter was an important remnant of a key mechanism
                or just a termite turd. And they're probably all dead and unquestionable
                by now.

                Nice point you make, also, about the nonfunctional features that may be
                relics of something that once functioned. One more possibility we should
                always keep in mind, as we look at the tiny sample that's come down to us
                from a very rich and diverse world.

                Again, thank you for some very constructive criticism!

                Ulfhedinn
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