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New.. Intro~ Hi..Want to Make A 2-Wheel Cart For a Portable Oven

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  • unknown
    I am a cook more than a woodworker, but I want to make a 2 wheel cart to drag a portable oven around. Something small and very simple, but it needs to hold
    Message 1 of 10 , Feb 28, 2010
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      I am a cook more than a woodworker, but I want to make a 2 wheel cart to drag a portable oven around. Something small and very simple, but it needs to hold some weight. I have 3 sets of 36" round wood cable spool ends to make wheels. I was thinking of bolting 2 sets to make a 1½" wide wheel.

      The best I can describe without 10,000 words is a donkey cart or a Mormon hand cart with out spokes (which would be more complex).

      I am stuck at the axle part. Getting the wheel to go round without wobbling or dumping a 200 pound oven to the ground, or taking up the entire trailer.

      I have made a couple break down thrones and a simple box.

      Does anyone have plans even I can follow?

      HELP

      Theresa
    • Sean Powell
      It s important that wheels be perpendicular to their axle. There are (at least) 2 ways to do this: The first is to have a wide hub. I believe the complete
      Message 2 of 10 , Feb 28, 2010
      • 0 Attachment
        It's important that wheels be perpendicular to their axle. There are (at
        least) 2 ways to do this:

        The first is to have a wide hub. I believe the complete blacksmith has
        some recommendations for wheel hub length to diameter but on a 36 wheel
        I would suggest at least 4" of bearing surface. I like black-iron pipe
        from home depot as an axle. Very strong for it's weight. Cross drilling
        and using a large washer plus cotter-pin is no more anachronistic then
        wore-spool wheels and they can be removed for easy transport.

        For a less visually modern solution you can firmly affix the wheel to
        the axle by using a threaded flange fitting and the same black iron pipe
        as an axle. The problem with this is both wheels spin at the same speed
        so turning is more difficult and one wheel will want to un-thread so you
        will need to loctite, solder or weld the threads and this means the
        wheels can not be removed for transport.

        Why a 2-wheel cart and not a 4-wheel wagon? 200lbs is burdensome to keep
        balanced and unstable on it's own (without the donkey). You can add a
        collapsing 3rd leg to support the handles level when not pushing it but
        there is always the risk of it collapsing when you don't want it to.
        Your basic red-ryder wagon framework is period and actually rather
        convenient. You might be able to thicken the hub area and carefully
        re-drill holes for the axles and mount them with either lag-bolts or
        threaded rod and castle nuts. The last solution is what we did your our
        trebuchet wheels. 16" diameter 1.5" thick and 2.25" length hubs on 3/4"
        axles. Works nicely.

        Sean

        On 2/28/2010 1:21 PM, unknown wrote:
        >
        > I am a cook more than a woodworker, but I want to make a 2 wheel cart to drag a portable oven around. Something small and very simple, but it needs to hold some weight. I have 3 sets of 36" round wood cable spool ends to make wheels. I was thinking of bolting 2 sets to make a 1½" wide wheel.
        >
        > The best I can describe without 10,000 words is a donkey cart or a Mormon hand cart with out spokes (which would be more complex).
        >
        > I am stuck at the axle part. Getting the wheel to go round without wobbling or dumping a 200 pound oven to the ground, or taking up the entire trailer.
        >
        > I have made a couple break down thrones and a simple box.
        >
        > Does anyone have plans even I can follow?
        >
        > HELP
        >
        > Theresa
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
      • conradh@efn.org
        ... Wide hubs also have a strength advantage when wheels are strained and twisted by uneven ground. For a more cosmetic version of his suggestion, you could
        Message 3 of 10 , Feb 28, 2010
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          On Sun, February 28, 2010 12:28 pm, Sean Powell wrote:

          > The first is to have a wide hub. I believe the complete blacksmith has
          > some recommendations for wheel hub length to diameter but on a 36 wheel I
          > would suggest at least 4" of bearing surface. I like black-iron pipe from
          > home depot as an axle. Very strong for it's weight. Cross drilling and
          > using a large washer plus cotter-pin is no more anachronistic then
          > wore-spool wheels and they can be removed for easy transport.

          Wide hubs also have a strength advantage when wheels are strained and
          twisted by uneven ground. For a more cosmetic version of his suggestion,
          you could bore a blind hole into a round or squarish block of wood and
          have it masquerade as a traditional wooden axle-end. A wedge would hold
          it to the pipe inside (and also hold the wheel on). In other words, the
          block serves as the "washer" and the wedge replaces the cotter pin.
          >

          >
          > Why a 2-wheel cart and not a 4-wheel wagon? 200lbs is burdensome to keep
          > balanced and unstable on it's own (without the donkey). You can add a
          > collapsing 3rd leg to support the handles level when not pushing it but
          > there is always the risk of it collapsing when you don't want it to. Your
          > basic red-ryder wagon framework is period and actually rather convenient.
          > You might be able to thicken the hub area and carefully
          > re-drill holes for the axles and mount them with either lag-bolts or
          > threaded rod and castle nuts. The last solution is what we did your our
          > trebuchet wheels. 16" diameter 1.5" thick and 2.25" length hubs on 3/4"
          > axles. Works nicely.

          Or do what the owners of carts have done for thousands of years--learn to
          load in a balanced way. If your oven is going to be most of the load, how
          about sliding it in until the desired balance is achieved, (I would prefer
          about 20 pounds weight on the shafts, so that I _know_ which way it will
          want to tilt, but arrange it however you like) and then tack a cleat to
          the bed of the cart so the oven can't slip forward on a bump. The cleat
          defines how far you slide the oven in, so it loads right every time, and
          then a bit of rope can keep it from slipping back.

          The advantages of two-wheeled carts are economy, ease of construction and
          the ability to maneuver in less space. If you go the four-wheel route,
          you may discover that the wagon has a _very_ large turning circle unless
          you build a pivoting front axle assembly, and that makes the whole project
          considerably more complicated. Wheelwrights used to make jokes about
          wagons built by house carpenters, because they needed the whole of the
          village common just to turn around in....

          Free advice, and probably worth every penny. Good luck with your project,
          whichever choices you try.

          Ulfhedinn
          >
          > Sean
          >
          >
          > On 2/28/2010 1:21 PM, unknown wrote:
          >
          >>
          >> I am a cook more than a woodworker, but I want to make a 2 wheel cart
          >> to drag a portable oven around. Something small and very simple, but
          >> it needs to hold some weight. I have 3 sets of 36" round wood cable
          >> spool ends to make wheels. I was thinking of bolting 2 sets to make a
          >> 1½" wide wheel.
          >>
          >>
          >> The best I can describe without 10,000 words is a donkey cart or a
          >> Mormon hand cart with out spokes (which would be more complex).
          >>
          >>
          >> I am stuck at the axle part. Getting the wheel to go round without
          >> wobbling or dumping a 200 pound oven to the ground, or taking up the
          >> entire trailer.
          >>
          >> I have made a couple break down thrones and a simple box.
          >>
          >>
          >> Does anyone have plans even I can follow?
          >>
          >>
          >> HELP
          >>
          >>
          >> Theresa
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >> ------------------------------------
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >
        • Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart
          put some sort of support on the cart somewhere so that it can sit with the oven on it in a mostly level manner without someone standing there holding it. I
          Message 4 of 10 , Feb 28, 2010
          • 0 Attachment
            put some sort of support on the cart somewhere so that it
            can sit with the oven on it in a 'mostly level' manner without 
            someone standing there holding it.

            I want a cart too..... and I'm probably gonna over engineer it.

            I'm willing to admit that up front.
             
            Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart

            Aude Aliquid Dignum
            ' Dare Something Worthy '



            From: "conradh@..." <conradh@...>
            To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Sun, February 28, 2010 5:05:23 PM
            Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] New.. Intro~ Hi..Want to Make A 2-Wheel Cart For a Portable Oven

             

            On Sun, February 28, 2010 12:28 pm, Sean Powell wrote:

            > The first is to have a wide hub. I believe the complete blacksmith has
            > some recommendations for wheel hub length to diameter but on a 36 wheel I
            > would suggest at least 4" of bearing surface. I like black-iron pipe from
            > home depot as an axle. Very strong for it's weight. Cross drilling and
            > using a large washer plus cotter-pin is no more anachronistic then
            > wore-spool wheels and they can be removed for easy transport.

            Wide hubs also have a strength advantage when wheels are strained and
            twisted by uneven ground. For a more cosmetic version of his suggestion,
            you could bore a blind hole into a round or squarish block of wood and
            have it masquerade as a traditional wooden axle-end. A wedge would hold
            it to the pipe inside (and also hold the wheel on). In other words, the
            block serves as the "washer" and the wedge replaces the cotter pin.
            >

            >
            > Why a 2-wheel cart and not a 4-wheel wagon? 200lbs is burdensome to keep
            > balanced and unstable on it's own (without the donkey). You can add a
            > collapsing 3rd leg to support the handles level when not pushing it but
            > there is always the risk of it collapsing when you don't want it to. Your
            > basic red-ryder wagon framework is period and actually rather convenient.
            > You might be able to thicken the hub area and carefully
            > re-drill holes for the axles and mount them with either lag-bolts or
            > threaded rod and castle nuts. The last solution is what we did your our
            > trebuchet wheels. 16" diameter 1.5" thick and 2.25" length hubs on 3/4"
            > axles. Works nicely.

            Or do what the owners of carts have done for thousands of years--learn to
            load in a balanced way. If your oven is going to be most of the load, how
            about sliding it in until the desired balance is achieved, (I would prefer
            about 20 pounds weight on the shafts, so that I _know_ which way it will
            want to tilt, but arrange it however you like) and then tack a cleat to
            the bed of the cart so the oven can't slip forward on a bump. The cleat
            defines how far you slide the oven in, so it loads right every time, and
            then a bit of rope can keep it from slipping back.

            The advantages of two-wheeled carts are economy, ease of construction and
            the ability to maneuver in less space. If you go the four-wheel route,
            you may discover that the wagon has a _very_ large turning circle unless
            you build a pivoting front axle assembly, and that makes the whole project
            considerably more complicated. Wheelwrights used to make jokes about
            wagons built by house carpenters, because they needed the whole of the
            village common just to turn around in....

            Free advice, and probably worth every penny. Good luck with your project,
            whichever choices you try.

            Ulfhedinn
            >
            > Sean
            >
            >
            > On 2/28/2010 1:21 PM, unknown wrote:
            >
            >>
            >> I am a cook more than a woodworker, but I want to make a 2 wheel cart
            >> to drag a portable oven around. Something small and very simple, but
            >> it needs to hold some weight. I have 3 sets of 36" round wood cable
            >> spool ends to make wheels. I was thinking of bolting 2 sets to make a
            >> 1½" wide wheel.
            >>
            >>
            >> The best I can describe without 10,000 words is a donkey cart or a
            >> Mormon hand cart with out spokes (which would be more complex).
            >>
            >>
            >> I am stuck at the axle part. Getting the wheel to go round without
            >> wobbling or dumping a 200 pound oven to the ground, or taking up the
            >> entire trailer.
            >>
            >> I have made a couple break down thrones and a simple box.
            >>
            >>
            >> Does anyone have plans even I can follow?
            >>
            >>
            >> HELP
            >>
            >>
            >> Theresa
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >> ------------ --------- --------- ------
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >


          • unknown
            Thanks for all the suggestions on the cart. The cable spool ends were free, not a big deal if there not used. I would like the cart to be period looking as
            Message 5 of 10 , Feb 28, 2010
            • 0 Attachment
              Thanks for all the suggestions on the cart. The cable spool ends were free, not a big deal if there not used. I would like the cart to be period looking as much as possible with my basic skills and knowledge. I hope to find cart plans, why re-invent the wheel...lol.


              Thanks

              Theresa
              --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart <baronconal@...> wrote:
              >
              > put some sort of support on the cart somewhere so that it
              > can sit with the oven on it in a 'mostly level' manner without
              > someone standing there holding it.
              >
              > I want a cart too..... and I'm probably gonna over engineer it.
              >
              > I'm willing to admit that up front.
              > Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart
              >
              > Aude Aliquid Dignum
              > ' Dare Something Worthy '
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ________________________________
              > From: "conradh@..." <conradh@...>
              > To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Sun, February 28, 2010 5:05:23 PM
              > Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] New.. Intro~ Hi..Want to Make A 2-Wheel Cart For a Portable Oven
              >
              >
              > On Sun, February 28, 2010 12:28 pm, Sean Powell wrote:
              >
              > > The first is to have a wide hub. I believe the complete blacksmith has
              > > some recommendations for wheel hub length to diameter but on a 36 wheel I
              > > would suggest at least 4" of bearing surface. I like black-iron pipe from
              > > home depot as an axle. Very strong for it's weight. Cross drilling and
              > > using a large washer plus cotter-pin is no more anachronistic then
              > > wore-spool wheels and they can be removed for easy transport.
              >
              > Wide hubs also have a strength advantage when wheels are strained and
              > twisted by uneven ground. For a more cosmetic version of his suggestion,
              > you could bore a blind hole into a round or squarish block of wood and
              > have it masquerade as a traditional wooden axle-end. A wedge would hold
              > it to the pipe inside (and also hold the wheel on). In other words, the
              > block serves as the "washer" and the wedge replaces the cotter pin.
              > >
              >
              > >
              > > Why a 2-wheel cart and not a 4-wheel wagon? 200lbs is burdensome to keep
              > > balanced and unstable on it's own (without the donkey). You can add a
              > > collapsing 3rd leg to support the handles level when not pushing it but
              > > there is always the risk of it collapsing when you don't want it to. Your
              > > basic red-ryder wagon framework is period and actually rather convenient.
              > > You might be able to thicken the hub area and carefully
              > > re-drill holes for the axles and mount them with either lag-bolts or
              > > threaded rod and castle nuts. The last solution is what we did your our
              > > trebuchet wheels. 16" diameter 1.5" thick and 2.25" length hubs on 3/4"
              > > axles. Works nicely.
              >
              > Or do what the owners of carts have done for thousands of years--learn to
              > load in a balanced way. If your oven is going to be most of the load, how
              > about sliding it in until the desired balance is achieved, (I would prefer
              > about 20 pounds weight on the shafts, so that I _know_ which way it will
              > want to tilt, but arrange it however you like) and then tack a cleat to
              > the bed of the cart so the oven can't slip forward on a bump. The cleat
              > defines how far you slide the oven in, so it loads right every time, and
              > then a bit of rope can keep it from slipping back.
              >
              > The advantages of two-wheeled carts are economy, ease of construction and
              > the ability to maneuver in less space. If you go the four-wheel route,
              > you may discover that the wagon has a _very_ large turning circle unless
              > you build a pivoting front axle assembly, and that makes the whole project
              > considerably more complicated. Wheelwrights used to make jokes about
              > wagons built by house carpenters, because they needed the whole of the
              > village common just to turn around in....
              >
              > Free advice, and probably worth every penny. Good luck with your project,
              > whichever choices you try.
              >
              > Ulfhedinn
              > >
              > > Sean
              > >
              > >
              > > On 2/28/2010 1:21 PM, unknown wrote:
              > >
              > >>
              > >> I am a cook more than a woodworker, but I want to make a 2 wheel cart
              > >> to drag a portable oven around. Something small and very simple, but
              > >> it needs to hold some weight. I have 3 sets of 36" round wood cable
              > >> spool ends to make wheels. I was thinking of bolting 2 sets to make a
              > >> 1½" wide wheel.
              > >>
              > >>
              > >> The best I can describe without 10,000 words is a donkey cart or a
              > >> Mormon hand cart with out spokes (which would be more complex).
              > >>
              > >>
              > >> I am stuck at the axle part. Getting the wheel to go round without
              > >> wobbling or dumping a 200 pound oven to the ground, or taking up the
              > >> entire trailer.
              > >>
              > >> I have made a couple break down thrones and a simple box.
              > >>
              > >>
              > >> Does anyone have plans even I can follow?
              > >>
              > >>
              > >> HELP
              > >>
              > >>
              > >> Theresa
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>
              > >> ------------ --------- --------- ------
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>
              > >
              >
            • Sean Powell
              My first instinct is the Oseberg Cart but that s a 4-wheel job. http://abe.midco.net/vikingskald/Oseberg_cart/fullcart_files/cart_files/cart.jpg ... but you
              Message 6 of 10 , Mar 1, 2010
              • 0 Attachment
                My first instinct is the Oseberg Cart but that's a 4-wheel job.
                http://abe.midco.net/vikingskald/Oseberg_cart/fullcart_files/cart_files/cart.jpg
                ... but you will notice how wide the hubs are for wheel stability.

                Flip through Karen Larsdatter's links until you find a few you like the
                design of and then we can talk construction specifics.
                http://www.larsdatter.com/wagons.htm

                P.S. I'm a house-builder when it comes to carts. My first siege engine
                had 4 wheels but no way to steer so it couldn't even turn around in the
                whole town green. My ballista base is a 2-wheel job but it requires 2
                people to play the part of the mule over rough terrain. Sticking to
                medieval proportions is probably best. :)

                Sean

                On 3/1/2010 12:05 AM, unknown wrote:
                > Thanks for all the suggestions on the cart. The cable spool ends were free, not a big deal if there not used. I would like the cart to be period looking as much as possible with my basic skills and knowledge. I hope to find cart plans, why re-invent the wheel...lol.
                >
                >
                > Thanks
                >
                > Theresa
                > --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart<baronconal@...> wrote:
                >
                >> put some sort of support on the cart somewhere so that it
                >> can sit with the oven on it in a 'mostly level' manner without
                >> someone standing there holding it.
                >>
                >> I want a cart too..... and I'm probably gonna over engineer it.
                >>
                >> I'm willing to admit that up front.
                >> Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart
                >>
                >> Aude Aliquid Dignum
                >> ' Dare Something Worthy'
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >> ________________________________
                >> From: "conradh@..."<conradh@...>
                >> To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                >> Sent: Sun, February 28, 2010 5:05:23 PM
                >> Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] New.. Intro~ Hi..Want to Make A 2-Wheel Cart For a Portable Oven
                >>
                >>
                >> On Sun, February 28, 2010 12:28 pm, Sean Powell wrote:
                >>
                >>
                >>> The first is to have a wide hub. I believe the complete blacksmith has
                >>> some recommendations for wheel hub length to diameter but on a 36 wheel I
                >>> would suggest at least 4" of bearing surface. I like black-iron pipe from
                >>> home depot as an axle. Very strong for it's weight. Cross drilling and
                >>> using a large washer plus cotter-pin is no more anachronistic then
                >>> wore-spool wheels and they can be removed for easy transport.
                >>>
                >> Wide hubs also have a strength advantage when wheels are strained and
                >> twisted by uneven ground. For a more cosmetic version of his suggestion,
                >> you could bore a blind hole into a round or squarish block of wood and
                >> have it masquerade as a traditional wooden axle-end. A wedge would hold
                >> it to the pipe inside (and also hold the wheel on). In other words, the
                >> block serves as the "washer" and the wedge replaces the cotter pin.
                >>
                >>>
                >>
                >>> Why a 2-wheel cart and not a 4-wheel wagon? 200lbs is burdensome to keep
                >>> balanced and unstable on it's own (without the donkey). You can add a
                >>> collapsing 3rd leg to support the handles level when not pushing it but
                >>> there is always the risk of it collapsing when you don't want it to. Your
                >>> basic red-ryder wagon framework is period and actually rather convenient.
                >>> You might be able to thicken the hub area and carefully
                >>> re-drill holes for the axles and mount them with either lag-bolts or
                >>> threaded rod and castle nuts. The last solution is what we did your our
                >>> trebuchet wheels. 16" diameter 1.5" thick and 2.25" length hubs on 3/4"
                >>> axles. Works nicely.
                >>>
                >> Or do what the owners of carts have done for thousands of years--learn to
                >> load in a balanced way. If your oven is going to be most of the load, how
                >> about sliding it in until the desired balance is achieved, (I would prefer
                >> about 20 pounds weight on the shafts, so that I _know_ which way it will
                >> want to tilt, but arrange it however you like) and then tack a cleat to
                >> the bed of the cart so the oven can't slip forward on a bump. The cleat
                >> defines how far you slide the oven in, so it loads right every time, and
                >> then a bit of rope can keep it from slipping back.
                >>
                >> The advantages of two-wheeled carts are economy, ease of construction and
                >> the ability to maneuver in less space. If you go the four-wheel route,
                >> you may discover that the wagon has a _very_ large turning circle unless
                >> you build a pivoting front axle assembly, and that makes the whole project
                >> considerably more complicated. Wheelwrights used to make jokes about
                >> wagons built by house carpenters, because they needed the whole of the
                >> village common just to turn around in....
                >>
                >> Free advice, and probably worth every penny. Good luck with your project,
                >> whichever choices you try.
                >>
                >> Ulfhedinn
                >>
                >>> Sean
                >>>
                >>>
                >>> On 2/28/2010 1:21 PM, unknown wrote:
                >>>
                >>>
                >>>> I am a cook more than a woodworker, but I want to make a 2 wheel cart
                >>>> to drag a portable oven around. Something small and very simple, but
                >>>> it needs to hold some weight. I have 3 sets of 36" round wood cable
                >>>> spool ends to make wheels. I was thinking of bolting 2 sets to make a
                >>>> 1½" wide wheel.
                >>>>
                >>>>
                >>>> The best I can describe without 10,000 words is a donkey cart or a
                >>>> Mormon hand cart with out spokes (which would be more complex).
                >>>>
                >>>>
                >>>> I am stuck at the axle part. Getting the wheel to go round without
                >>>> wobbling or dumping a 200 pound oven to the ground, or taking up the
                >>>> entire trailer.
                >>>>
                >>>> I have made a couple break down thrones and a simple box.
                >>>>
                >>>>
                >>>> Does anyone have plans even I can follow?
                >>>>
                >>>>
                >>>> HELP
                >>>>
                >>>>
                >>>> Theresa
                >>>>
                >>>>
                >>>>
                >>>>
                >>>>
                >>>> ------------ --------- --------- ------
                >>>>
                >>>>
                >>>>
                >>>>
                >>>>
                >>>>
                >>>>
                >>>
                >>
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
              • conradh@efn.org
                ... The carving might be a little intimidating for her :-) Also, IIRC the Oseberg wagon has a pivoting front axle rig with a king bolt, doesn t it? The way
                Message 7 of 10 , Mar 1, 2010
                • 0 Attachment
                  On Mon, March 1, 2010 3:32 am, Sean Powell wrote:
                  > My first instinct is the Oseberg Cart but that's a 4-wheel job.
                  > http://abe.midco.net/vikingskald/Oseberg_cart/fullcart_files/cart_files/ca
                  > rt.jpg ... but you will notice how wide the hubs are for wheel stability.
                  >
                  >
                  The carving might be a little intimidating for her :-)

                  Also, IIRC the Oseberg wagon has a pivoting front axle rig with a king
                  bolt, doesn't it? The way the tugs run down to the ends of the front axle
                  certainly suggest that. (Russian rural wagons still use this harness lead
                  today--I wonder who came up with it first?)

                  As we've both mentioned, a wagon without steerable front wheels might as
                  well be on rails for all the turning it can do. A two-wheel cart can be
                  turned in its own length, and bring the load right to the spot you want
                  it.

                  Ulfhedinn
                • Bruce S. R. Lee
                  As reconstructed, the Oseberg cart does NOT steer, there are a number of pegs that stop any articulation of the front axle or framework. That said, it
                  Message 8 of 10 , Mar 2, 2010
                  • 0 Attachment
                    As reconstructed, the Oseberg cart does NOT steer, there are a number
                    of pegs that stop any articulation of the front axle or framework.

                    That said, it certainly looks like there was a steerable 4 wheeled
                    cart somewhere in its ancestry, just like a 'Glastonbury' chair looks
                    like there was some sort of folding chair or stool somewhere back in
                    its ancestry, despite which all the existant examples of any
                    antiquity do NOT fold.

                    The interesting part is WHY the Oseberg cart does not have a
                    steerable front axle. Was it because the cart was 'made over' from an
                    old or favorite cart and just pegged to keep it together to go into
                    the grave, or was there some symbolic/religious reason? You also have
                    to consider that just about everything in the grave was crushed flat
                    & broken into pieces by the overburden (dirt) and had to be conserved
                    with limited technology (no freeze drying or P.E.G.) then put
                    together like a giant jigsaw puzzle


                    regards
                    Brusi of Orkney

                    At 09:20 AM 2/03/2010, you wrote:
                    >On Mon, March 1, 2010 3:32 am, Sean Powell wrote:
                    > > My first instinct is the Oseberg Cart but that's a 4-wheel job.
                    > > http://abe.midco.net/vikingskald/Oseberg_cart/fullcart_files/cart_files/ca
                    > > rt.jpg ... but you will notice how wide the hubs are for wheel stability.
                    > >
                    > >
                    >The carving might be a little intimidating for her :-)
                    >
                    >Also, IIRC the Oseberg wagon has a pivoting front axle rig with a king
                    >bolt, doesn't it? The way the tugs run down to the ends of the front axle
                    >certainly suggest that. (Russian rural wagons still use this harness lead
                    >today--I wonder who came up with it first?)
                    >
                    >As we've both mentioned, a wagon without steerable front wheels might as
                    >well be on rails for all the turning it can do. A two-wheel cart can be
                    >turned in its own length, and bring the load right to the spot you want
                    >it.
                    >
                    >Ulfhedinn
                  • unknown
                    Thanks for the temptation; I m still trying to figure out how to make one wheel...4 wheels a carving, indeed! Better yet... I double dare you to make it for
                    Message 9 of 10 , Mar 2, 2010
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                      Thanks for the temptation; I'm still trying to figure out how to make one wheel...4 wheels a carving, indeed!


                      Better yet... I double dare you to make it for me!

                      Theresa



                      --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, Sean Powell <powell.sean@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > My first instinct is the Oseberg Cart but that's a 4-wheel job.
                      > http://abe.midco.net/vikingskald/Oseberg_cart/fullcart_files/cart_files/cart.jpg
                      > ... but you will notice how wide the hubs are for wheel stability.
                      >
                      > Flip through Karen Larsdatter's links until you find a few you like the
                      > design of and then we can talk construction specifics.
                      > http://www.larsdatter.com/wagons.htm
                      >
                      > P.S. I'm a house-builder when it comes to carts. My first siege engine
                      > had 4 wheels but no way to steer so it couldn't even turn around in the
                      > whole town green. My ballista base is a 2-wheel job but it requires 2
                      > people to play the part of the mule over rough terrain. Sticking to
                      > medieval proportions is probably best. :)
                      >
                      > Sean
                      >
                      > On 3/1/2010 12:05 AM, unknown wrote:
                      > > Thanks for all the suggestions on the cart. The cable spool ends were free, not a big deal if there not used. I would like the cart to be period looking as much as possible with my basic skills and knowledge. I hope to find cart plans, why re-invent the wheel...lol.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Thanks
                      > >
                      > > Theresa
                      > > --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart<baronconal@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > >> put some sort of support on the cart somewhere so that it
                      > >> can sit with the oven on it in a 'mostly level' manner without
                      > >> someone standing there holding it.
                      > >>
                      > >> I want a cart too..... and I'm probably gonna over engineer it.
                      > >>
                      > >> I'm willing to admit that up front.
                      > >> Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart
                      > >>
                      > >> Aude Aliquid Dignum
                      > >> ' Dare Something Worthy'
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > >> ________________________________
                      > >> From: "conradh@"<conradh@>
                      > >> To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                      > >> Sent: Sun, February 28, 2010 5:05:23 PM
                      > >> Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] New.. Intro~ Hi..Want to Make A 2-Wheel Cart For a Portable Oven
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > >> On Sun, February 28, 2010 12:28 pm, Sean Powell wrote:
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > >>> The first is to have a wide hub. I believe the complete blacksmith has
                      > >>> some recommendations for wheel hub length to diameter but on a 36 wheel I
                      > >>> would suggest at least 4" of bearing surface. I like black-iron pipe from
                      > >>> home depot as an axle. Very strong for it's weight. Cross drilling and
                      > >>> using a large washer plus cotter-pin is no more anachronistic then
                      > >>> wore-spool wheels and they can be removed for easy transport.
                      > >>>
                      > >> Wide hubs also have a strength advantage when wheels are strained and
                      > >> twisted by uneven ground. For a more cosmetic version of his suggestion,
                      > >> you could bore a blind hole into a round or squarish block of wood and
                      > >> have it masquerade as a traditional wooden axle-end. A wedge would hold
                      > >> it to the pipe inside (and also hold the wheel on). In other words, the
                      > >> block serves as the "washer" and the wedge replaces the cotter pin.
                      > >>
                      > >>>
                      > >>
                      > >>> Why a 2-wheel cart and not a 4-wheel wagon? 200lbs is burdensome to keep
                      > >>> balanced and unstable on it's own (without the donkey). You can add a
                      > >>> collapsing 3rd leg to support the handles level when not pushing it but
                      > >>> there is always the risk of it collapsing when you don't want it to. Your
                      > >>> basic red-ryder wagon framework is period and actually rather convenient.
                      > >>> You might be able to thicken the hub area and carefully
                      > >>> re-drill holes for the axles and mount them with either lag-bolts or
                      > >>> threaded rod and castle nuts. The last solution is what we did your our
                      > >>> trebuchet wheels. 16" diameter 1.5" thick and 2.25" length hubs on 3/4"
                      > >>> axles. Works nicely.
                      > >>>
                      > >> Or do what the owners of carts have done for thousands of years--learn to
                      > >> load in a balanced way. If your oven is going to be most of the load, how
                      > >> about sliding it in until the desired balance is achieved, (I would prefer
                      > >> about 20 pounds weight on the shafts, so that I _know_ which way it will
                      > >> want to tilt, but arrange it however you like) and then tack a cleat to
                      > >> the bed of the cart so the oven can't slip forward on a bump. The cleat
                      > >> defines how far you slide the oven in, so it loads right every time, and
                      > >> then a bit of rope can keep it from slipping back.
                      > >>
                      > >> The advantages of two-wheeled carts are economy, ease of construction and
                      > >> the ability to maneuver in less space. If you go the four-wheel route,
                      > >> you may discover that the wagon has a _very_ large turning circle unless
                      > >> you build a pivoting front axle assembly, and that makes the whole project
                      > >> considerably more complicated. Wheelwrights used to make jokes about
                      > >> wagons built by house carpenters, because they needed the whole of the
                      > >> village common just to turn around in....
                      > >>
                      > >> Free advice, and probably worth every penny. Good luck with your project,
                      > >> whichever choices you try.
                      > >>
                      > >> Ulfhedinn
                      > >>
                      > >>> Sean
                      > >>>
                      > >>>
                      > >>> On 2/28/2010 1:21 PM, unknown wrote:
                      > >>>
                      > >>>
                      > >>>> I am a cook more than a woodworker, but I want to make a 2 wheel cart
                      > >>>> to drag a portable oven around. Something small and very simple, but
                      > >>>> it needs to hold some weight. I have 3 sets of 36" round wood cable
                      > >>>> spool ends to make wheels. I was thinking of bolting 2 sets to make a
                      > >>>> 1½" wide wheel.
                      > >>>>
                      > >>>>
                      > >>>> The best I can describe without 10,000 words is a donkey cart or a
                      > >>>> Mormon hand cart with out spokes (which would be more complex).
                      > >>>>
                      > >>>>
                      > >>>> I am stuck at the axle part. Getting the wheel to go round without
                      > >>>> wobbling or dumping a 200 pound oven to the ground, or taking up the
                      > >>>> entire trailer.
                      > >>>>
                      > >>>> I have made a couple break down thrones and a simple box.
                      > >>>>
                      > >>>>
                      > >>>> Does anyone have plans even I can follow?
                      > >>>>
                      > >>>>
                      > >>>> HELP
                      > >>>>
                      > >>>>
                      > >>>> Theresa
                      > >>>>
                      > >>>>
                      > >>>>
                      > >>>>
                      > >>>>
                      > >>>> ------------ --------- --------- ------
                      > >>>>
                      > >>>>
                      > >>>>
                      > >>>>
                      > >>>>
                      > >>>>
                      > >>>>
                      > >>>
                      > >>
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > ------------------------------------
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                    • conradh@efn.org
                      ... Brusi--thakka ydr fyrir! I ve never had the good fortune to see the actual wagon; it wasn t included in the only good Norse museum tour to come within my
                      Message 10 of 10 , Mar 2, 2010
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                        On Tue, March 2, 2010 6:36 am, Bruce S. R. Lee wrote:
                        > As reconstructed, the Oseberg cart does NOT steer, there are a number
                        > of pegs that stop any articulation of the front axle or framework.
                        >
                        > That said, it certainly looks like there was a steerable 4 wheeled
                        > cart somewhere in its ancestry, just like a 'Glastonbury' chair looks like
                        > there was some sort of folding chair or stool somewhere back in its
                        > ancestry, despite which all the existant examples of any antiquity do NOT
                        > fold.
                        >
                        > The interesting part is WHY the Oseberg cart does not have a
                        > steerable front axle. Was it because the cart was 'made over' from an old
                        > or favorite cart and just pegged to keep it together to go into the grave,
                        > or was there some symbolic/religious reason? You also have to consider
                        > that just about everything in the grave was crushed flat & broken into
                        > pieces by the overburden (dirt) and had to be conserved with limited
                        > technology (no freeze drying or P.E.G.) then put together like a giant
                        > jigsaw puzzle
                        >
                        >
                        > regards Brusi of Orkney
                        >
                        >
                        Brusi--thakka ydr fyrir! I've never had the good fortune to see the
                        actual wagon; it wasn't included in the only good Norse museum tour to
                        come within my reach. So I've seen a few photos, and those were of the
                        reconstruction.

                        Just as you suggest, I looked at the harness and assumed. And of course,
                        the reconstructors had to make their own assumptions, such as whether that
                        little bit of organic matter was an important remnant of a key mechanism
                        or just a termite turd. And they're probably all dead and unquestionable
                        by now.

                        Nice point you make, also, about the nonfunctional features that may be
                        relics of something that once functioned. One more possibility we should
                        always keep in mind, as we look at the tiny sample that's come down to us
                        from a very rich and diverse world.

                        Again, thank you for some very constructive criticism!

                        Ulfhedinn
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