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13th and 14th century period tools?

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  • shane
    could anyone recommend some sources for images of period woodworking tools? Id like to forge some up. thanks! Fergal the Smith
    Message 1 of 13 , Nov 23, 2009
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      could anyone recommend some sources for images of period woodworking tools?
      Id like to forge some up.
      thanks!
      Fergal the Smith
    • Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart
      SERIOUS GENERALIZATION ALERT Within some limitation your basic hand tools have kept almost the same form from the Romans to the Victorians. Decorative elements
      Message 2 of 13 , Nov 24, 2009
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        SERIOUS GENERALIZATION ALERT

        Within some limitation your basic hand tools
        have kept almost the same form from the Romans
        to the Victorians. Decorative elements changed
        and those with moving parts evolved a little. Saws
        probably changed the most just based on what
        could be manufactured.

        There is a woodcut ( I think it's a woodcut ) of Noah
        building the arc that shows a lot of tools, a triptych of
        St Joseph...... and I know I've seen others, just not sure
        where....



         
        Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart

        Aude Aliquid Dignum
        ' Dare Something Worthy '



        From: shane <shane@...>
        To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Mon, November 23, 2009 7:51:30 PM
        Subject: [MedievalSawdust] 13th and 14th century period tools?

         

        could anyone recommend some sources for images of period woodworking tools?
        Id like to forge some up.
        thanks!
        Fergal the Smith


      • Zach Most
        This is probably the St. Joseph triptych Conal is thinking of: http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3486/3856423548_9958568fed.jpg   I believe it was done in the
        Message 3 of 13 , Nov 24, 2009
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          This is probably the St. Joseph triptych Conal is thinking of:
          http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3486/3856423548_9958568fed.jpg
            I believe it was done in the 15th century, though it reinforces his statement that many of  the tools didn't change dramatically.  That mouse trap on the other hand....
            Gaston

          --- On Tue, 11/24/09, Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart <baronconal@...> wrote:

          From: Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart <baronconal@...>
          Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] 13th and 14th century period tools?
          To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Tuesday, November 24, 2009, 11:03 AM

           

          SERIOUS GENERALIZATION ALERT

          Within some limitation your basic hand tools
          have kept almost the same form from the Romans
          to the Victorians. Decorative elements changed
          and those with moving parts evolved a little. Saws
          probably changed the most just based on what
          could be manufactured.

          There is a woodcut ( I think it's a woodcut ) of Noah
          building the arc that shows a lot of tools, a triptych of
          St Joseph...... and I know I've seen others, just not sure
          where....



           
          Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart

          Aude Aliquid Dignum
          ' Dare Something Worthy '



          From: shane <shane@granddesignwo rkshop.com>
          To: medievalsawdust@ yahoogroups. com
          Sent: Mon, November 23, 2009 7:51:30 PM
          Subject: [MedievalSawdust] 13th and 14th century period tools?

           

          could anyone recommend some sources for images of period woodworking tools?
          Id like to forge some up.
          thanks!
          Fergal the Smith



        • Ron
          That s the picture I was thinking of. In the past, members of this group have identified the small wooden object near his elbow as a medieval mouse trap. Any
          Message 4 of 13 , Nov 24, 2009
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            That's the picture I was thinking of. In the past, members of this group have identified the small wooden object near his elbow as a medieval mouse trap. Any idea what that thing is setting on the ledge outside the window?

            Thanks!

            Bayard

            --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, Zach Most <clermont1348@...> wrote:
            >
            > This is probably the St. Joseph triptych Conal is thinking of:
            > http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3486/3856423548_9958568fed.jpg
            >   I believe it was done in the 15th century, though it reinforces his statement that many of  the tools didn't change dramatically.  That mouse trap on the other hand....
            >   Gaston
            >
            > --- On Tue, 11/24/09, Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart <baronconal@...> wrote:
            >
            > From: Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart <baronconal@...>
            > Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] 13th and 14th century period tools?
            > To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
            > Date: Tuesday, November 24, 2009, 11:03 AM
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >  
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > SERIOUS GENERALIZATION ALERT
            >
            > Within some limitation your basic hand tools
            > have kept almost the same form from the Romans
            > to the Victorians. Decorative elements changed
            > and those with moving parts evolved a little. Saws
            > probably changed the most just based on what
            > could be manufactured.
            >
            > There is a woodcut ( I think it's a woodcut ) of Noah
            > building the arc that shows a lot of tools, a triptych of
            > St Joseph...... and I know I've seen others, just not sure
            > where....
            >
            >
            >
            >  Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart
            >
            > Aude Aliquid Dignum
            > ' Dare
            > Something Worthy '
            >
            > From: shane <shane@granddesignwo rkshop.com>
            > To: medievalsawdust@ yahoogroups. com
            > Sent: Mon, November 23, 2009 7:51:30 PM
            > Subject: [MedievalSawdust] 13th and 14th century period tools?
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >  
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > could anyone recommend some sources for images of period woodworking tools?
            >
            > Id like to forge some up.
            >
            > thanks!
            >
            > Fergal the Smith
            >
          • Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart
            You mean this mouse trap? It was a lot of fun to make. Baron Conal O hAirt / Jim Hart Aude Aliquid Dignum Dare Something Worthy
            Message 5 of 13 , Nov 24, 2009
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              You mean this mouse trap?

              It was a lot of fun to make.



              Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart

              Aude Aliquid Dignum
              ' Dare Something Worthy '



              From: Zach Most <clermont1348@...>
              To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Tue, November 24, 2009 4:22:32 PM
              Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] 13th and 14th century period tools?

               

              This is probably the St. Joseph triptych Conal is thinking of:
              http://farm4. static.flickr. com/3486/ 3856423548_ 9958568fed. jpg
                I believe it was done in the 15th century, though it reinforces his statement that many of  the tools didn't change dramatically.  That mouse trap on the other hand....
                Gaston

              --- On Tue, 11/24/09, Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart <baronconal@yahoo. com> wrote:

              From: Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart <baronconal@yahoo. com>
              Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] 13th and 14th century period tools?
              To: medievalsawdust@ yahoogroups. com
              Date: Tuesday, November 24, 2009, 11:03 AM

               

              SERIOUS GENERALIZATION ALERT

              Within some limitation your basic hand tools
              have kept almost the same form from the Romans
              to the Victorians. Decorative elements changed
              and those with moving parts evolved a little. Saws
              probably changed the most just based on what
              could be manufactured.

              There is a woodcut ( I think it's a woodcut ) of Noah
              building the arc that shows a lot of tools, a triptych of
              St Joseph...... and I know I've seen others, just not sure
              where....



               
              Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart

              Aude Aliquid Dignum
              ' Dare Something Worthy '



              From: shane <shane@granddesignwo rkshop.com>
              To: medievalsawdust@ yahoogroups. com
              Sent: Mon, November 23, 2009 7:51:30 PM
              Subject: [MedievalSawdust] 13th and 14th century period tools?

               

              could anyone recommend some sources for images of period woodworking tools?
              Id like to forge some up.
              thanks!
              Fergal the Smith




            • Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart
              a bird trap I think..... similar principles.... The English ate some strange things Baron Conal O hAirt / Jim Hart Aude Aliquid Dignum Dare Something Worthy
              Message 6 of 13 , Nov 24, 2009
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                 a bird trap I think..... similar principles....
                The English ate some strange things
                Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart

                Aude Aliquid Dignum
                ' Dare Something Worthy '



                From: Ron <williams@...>
                To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Tue, November 24, 2009 4:31:56 PM
                Subject: [MedievalSawdust] Re: 13th and 14th century period tools?

                 

                That's the picture I was thinking of. In the past, members of this group have identified the small wooden object near his elbow as a medieval mouse trap. Any idea what that thing is setting on the ledge outside the window?

                Thanks!

                Bayard

                --- In medievalsawdust@ yahoogroups. com, Zach Most <clermont1348@ ...> wrote:
                >
                > This is probably the St. Joseph triptych Conal is thinking of:
                > http://farm4. static.flickr. com/3486/ 3856423548_ 9958568fed. jpg
                >   I believe it was done in the 15th century, though it reinforces his statement that many of  the tools didn't change dramatically.  That mouse trap on the other hand.....
                >   Gaston
                >
                > --- On Tue, 11/24/09, Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart <baronconal@ ...> wrote:
                >
                > From: Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart <baronconal@ ...>
                > Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] 13th and 14th century period tools?
                > To: medievalsawdust@ yahoogroups. com
                > Date: Tuesday, November 24, 2009, 11:03 AM
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >  
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > SERIOUS GENERALIZATION ALERT
                >
                > Within some limitation your basic hand tools
                > have kept almost the same form from the Romans
                > to the Victorians. Decorative elements changed
                > and those with moving parts evolved a little. Saws
                > probably changed the most just based on what
                > could be manufactured.
                >
                > There is a woodcut ( I think it's a woodcut ) of Noah
                > building the arc that shows a lot of tools, a triptych of
                > St Joseph...... and I know I've seen others, just not sure
                > where....
                >
                >
                >
                >  Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart
                >
                > Aude Aliquid Dignum
                > ' Dare
                > Something Worthy '
                >
                > From: shane <shane@granddesignw o rkshop.com>
                > To: medievalsawdust@ yahoogroups. com
                > Sent: Mon, November 23, 2009 7:51:30 PM
                > Subject: [MedievalSawdust] 13th and 14th century period tools?
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >  
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > could anyone recommend some sources for images of period woodworking tools?
                >
                > Id like to forge some up..
                >
                > thanks!
                >
                > Fergal the Smith
                >


              • Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart
                link not working for me..... so I think this is the one you are talking about http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r295/ConalOhAirt/Misc%20Items/3124.jpg and
                Message 7 of 13 , Nov 24, 2009
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                  link not working for me.....

                  so  I think this is the one you are talking about

                  http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r295/ConalOhAirt/Misc%20Items/3124.jpg


                  and check here

                  http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/incunabula/noah_sm2.jpg

                  can't find the Noah woodcut I was thinking about.....


                   
                  Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart

                  Aude Aliquid Dignum
                  ' Dare Something Worthy '



                  From: Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart <baronconal@...>
                  To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Tue, November 24, 2009 6:09:42 PM
                  Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] 13th and 14th century period tools?

                   

                  You mean this mouse trap?

                  It was a lot of fun to make.



                  Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart

                  Aude Aliquid Dignum
                  ' Dare Something Worthy '



                  From: Zach Most <clermont1348@ yahoo.com>
                  To: medievalsawdust@ yahoogroups. com
                  Sent: Tue, November 24, 2009 4:22:32 PM
                  Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] 13th and 14th century period tools?

                   

                  This is probably the St. Joseph triptych Conal is thinking of:
                  http://farm4. static..flickr. com/3486/ 3856423548_ 9958568fed. jpg
                    I believe it was done in the 15th century, though it reinforces his statement that many of  the tools didn't change dramatically.  That mouse trap on the other hand....
                    Gaston

                  --- On Tue, 11/24/09, Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart <baronconal@yahoo. com> wrote:

                  From: Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart <baronconal@yahoo. com>
                  Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] 13th and 14th century period tools?
                  To: medievalsawdust@ yahoogroups.. com
                  Date: Tuesday, November 24, 2009, 11:03 AM

                   

                  SERIOUS GENERALIZATION ALERT

                  Within some limitation your basic hand tools
                  have kept almost the same form from the Romans
                  to the Victorians. Decorative elements changed
                  and those with moving parts evolved a little. Saws
                  probably changed the most just based on what
                  could be manufactured.

                  There is a woodcut ( I think it's a woodcut ) of Noah
                  building the arc that shows a lot of tools, a triptych of
                  St Joseph...... and I know I've seen others, just not sure
                  where....



                   
                  Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart

                  Aude Aliquid Dignum
                  ' Dare Something Worthy '



                  From: shane <shane@granddesignwo rkshop.com>
                  To: medievalsawdust@ yahoogroups.. com
                  Sent: Mon, November 23, 2009 7:51:30 PM
                  Subject: [MedievalSawdust] 13th and 14th century period tools?

                   

                  could anyone recommend some sources for images of period woodworking tools?
                  Id like to forge some up.
                  thanks!
                  Fergal the Smith





                • james
                  I ve posted a few photos of medieval tools I shot at the Museum of London. I hope it s some help. I tried to include the captions as well. They are a mix of
                  Message 8 of 13 , Nov 24, 2009
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                    I've posted a few photos of medieval tools I shot at the Museum of London. I hope it's some help. I tried to include the captions as well. They are a mix of woodworking, agricultural, and leather but it's all good fun.

                    Now if you wanted Roman tools, they have a fantastic series of mocked up Roman workshops with loads of tools.

                    I'm tending to agree with the generalization about tool forms being somewhat generic, though there were certainly stylistic differences. Ax heads come to mind.

                    I'm keenly interested in your work and would love an update as you make progress.

                    Another two cents.

                    Cedric of Thanet

                    --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, "shane" <shane@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > could anyone recommend some sources for images of period woodworking tools?
                    > Id like to forge some up.
                    > thanks!
                    > Fergal the Smith
                    >
                  • Steve Mercer
                    ... The Joseph making Mousetraps picture is the right-hand panel from the Merode Altarpiece, in the Cloisters Museum in New York, USA The Noah building the ark
                    Message 9 of 13 , Nov 25, 2009
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                      >> There is a woodcut ( I think it's a woodcut ) of Noah
                      >> building the arc that shows a lot of tools, a triptych of
                      >> St Joseph...... and I know I've seen others, just not sure
                      >> where....
                      >>
                      The Joseph making Mousetraps picture is the right-hand panel from the
                      Merode Altarpiece, in the Cloisters Museum in New York, USA

                      The Noah building the ark picture you are referring to is probably the
                      one from The Bedford book of Hours

                      A bad online version can be seen here:
                      http://www.manuscriptcollection.com/acatalog/FulF-bed02.JPG

                      A good version is in this book:
                      http://www.amazon.com/Bedford-Hours-Medieval-Manuscripts-British/dp/1561310212

                      -Justin
                    • sdhunter3
                      Fergal, Great idea! As has been pointed out already, many woodworking tools have changed little since the Roman times. In some cases, e.g. planes, the Romans
                      Message 10 of 13 , Nov 25, 2009
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                        Fergal,

                        Great idea! As has been pointed out already, many woodworking tools have changed little since the Roman times. In some cases, e.g. planes, the Romans used iron body planes which were not re-introduced until the 19th century (Bailey patents c. 1860). Also, the forged, iron part of many woodworking tools is only a part of the tool. There is usually some kind of handle, holder etc. for the metal part. The tool bodies were made of wood, probably by the woodworker himself. "How to Make Carpentry Tools: An Illustrated Manual by Aaron Moore" (Practical Action (1998), Edition: 2nd, Paperback, 240 pages) is an interesting book on making wooden tools, the blades, bits, etc. are assumed to be available from a local smith. While not all of the tool designs are period (see e.g. "The history of woodworking tools" by W. L. Goodman for a chronology of tool development), I feel that the techniques presented for tool making are basically similar to period techniques.

                        Sir Stanford

                        --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, "shane" <shane@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > could anyone recommend some sources for images of period woodworking tools?
                        > Id like to forge some up.
                        > thanks!
                        > Fergal the Smith
                        >
                      • beorn@tribewodenthor.org
                        Though it is a bit earlier, going on the idea that hand tools have not evolved too much, (with the exception of the saw,) I would suggest also to look at the
                        Message 11 of 13 , Nov 26, 2009
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                          Though it is a bit earlier, going on the idea that hand tools have not
                          evolved too much, (with the exception of the saw,) I would suggest
                          also to look at the tools from the mastermyr find, a pretty good
                          collection that has facinated me for years

                          and a question of my own . . . at what point do we see a shift from a
                          spoon auger type drill bits to the twist type bits like gimlets.
                          this question came up in my group the other day and I made a guess but
                          was not certain of the answer.

                          Thank you
                          Beorn oldwolf
                          www.tribewodenthor.org
                        • Jeff
                          Yeah, not a lot of change between tools from the time between Mastermyr and Moxon. And there s a lot of familiar forms in Roman finds as well. I have a 14th C
                          Message 12 of 13 , Nov 26, 2009
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                            Yeah, not a lot of change between tools from the time between Mastermyr and Moxon. And there's a lot of familiar forms in Roman finds as well.

                            I have a 14th C image of Noah using a twisted gimlet-style (pod auger) bit on a big breast-drill. The twist-spiral type, I've not seen before the 18th Century.

                            Jeff

                            --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, beorn@... wrote:
                            >
                            > Though it is a bit earlier, going on the idea that hand tools have not
                            > evolved too much, (with the exception of the saw,) I would suggest
                            > also to look at the tools from the mastermyr find, a pretty good
                            > collection that has facinated me for years
                            >
                            > and a question of my own . . . at what point do we see a shift from a
                            > spoon auger type drill bits to the twist type bits like gimlets.
                            > this question came up in my group the other day and I made a guess but
                            > was not certain of the answer.
                            >
                            > Thank you
                            > Beorn oldwolf
                            > www.tribewodenthor.org
                            >
                          • james
                            Well if one wanted to include the Mastermyr, then they might also include the Flixborough Hoard as well to compare evolution or sameness of tool design. I
                            Message 13 of 13 , Nov 27, 2009
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                              Well if one wanted to include the Mastermyr, then they might also include the Flixborough Hoard as well to compare evolution or sameness of tool design. I believe it's middle Saxon or there abouts but then again, maybe that's straying a bit from the named goal of 13th and 14th too much.

                              It'd be nice to see a chronology of tool forms based on datable finds.

                              Cedric
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