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RE: [MedievalSawdust] Cluny Trestle table info?

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  • Bill McNutt
    That’s something I run into time and again. Much of the stability of furniture from the high middle ages came from its mass. Our need for things to be
    Message 1 of 19 , Sep 11, 2009
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      That’s something I run into time and again.  Much of the stability of furniture from the high middle ages came from its mass.  Our need for things to be light and pack flat just wasn’t the case in period.

       

      They had serfs for that.

       

      Will

       

      From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com [mailto:medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart
      Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2009 7:40 PM
      To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] Cluny Trestle table info?

       

       

      I missed the part about the line drawing, sorry.



      ( I know this is not the answer you want )

      I cannot document it, but this is the 'plausible' solution I came up with.

      http://s147.photobucket.com/albums/r295/ConalOhAirt/SCA%20woodworking/?action=view&current=karlstrestle.jpg

      While not documentable it is a possible period solution that fits
      within the types of solutions they could have used.

       
      Our need for portability is a bit more restrictive than theirs was I'd
      be willing to bet.

      Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart

      Aude Aliquid Dignum
      ' Dare Something Worthy '

       

       


      From: Colleen Vince <42vince@...>
      To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2009 7:20:09 PM
      Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] Cluny Trestle table info?

       

      I saw the same discrepancy on museum of reference in the Dragon article. 

      I have managed to send an inquiry off to the Musee de Arts, 

      but I couldn't find a contact email address for the Cluny (i'll try again).

       

      I am more worried about the sawhorse part of the table than the board. 

      I have a few images of underside of folding/collapsing   tables in period, 

      but the saw horse is so much different from the stretcher trestle tables.

      A period examples  even heavily repaired to back up illuminations 

      would be awesome.

      Thanks  Coblaith

      The text says, "To my knowledge, the only surviving (and much-
      repaired) medieval trestle is the positively ornate model at the
      Musée de Cluny in Paris." It says nothing about an entire surviving

      table.

      > I have put all my search engine skills to work, and have came up
      > with nothing.

      Museum staff are often happy to share all sorts of information if you
      ask them directly. The main text of the French version of the
      article does indicate that item "p" in the illustration on page 9 is
      the Cluny trestle, but the description of "p" in the list of sources
      for the images reads, "tréteau tripode, Musée des arts decoratifs,
      Paris, XVe siecle". If you can't reach the author of the article to
      ask him which attribution is erroneous, you might want to check with
      both institutions (the Musée des arts decoratifs, Paris <http://
      www.lesartsdecorati fs.fr/english- 439/> and the Musée National du
      Moyen Âge Thermes de Cluny <http://www.musee- moyenage. fr/ang/
      index.html>). There're English-language versions of both their
      homepages, so I assume somebody at each could answer a question in
      English. It might take a while for an e-mail sent to the information
      address for the Musée National du Moyen Âge to be routed to the right
      people, but the website for the Musée des arts decoratifs, Paris,
      offers direct contact info for the curator and assistant curator of
      the Department of the Middle Ages/Renaissance <http://
      www.lesartsdecorati fs.fr/english- 439/the-institut ion/contacts- 2151>,
      so you should be able to get a quick answer there.

       

       


      Coblaith Muimnech
      <mailto:Coblaith@sbcglobal. net>
      <http://coblaith. net>

      .

      Error! Filename not specified. 

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

      --
      Mary Ostler    
      Apprentice to Mistress Agnes Cresewyke
      www.maryostler. com

       

    • AlbionWood
      I photo-toured both the Cluny and Arts Decoratifs in 2001, and this trestle was certainly not on display in either museum then. Definitely worth investigation
      Message 2 of 19 , Sep 11, 2009
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        I photo-toured both the Cluny and Arts Decoratifs in 2001, and this trestle was certainly not on display in either museum then.  Definitely worth investigation to see what's known about it, though don't get hopes too high - many of these objects have received only cursory attention, with only brief mentions in long-out-of-print foreign journals.

        Great article by John Howe, though!

        Tim

      • i_odlin
        ... A lot of people in this thread seem to be confusing the Cluny with the Musee des Arts Decoratifs. They are two very different museums. The trestle
        Message 3 of 19 , Sep 13, 2009
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          --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, "mary_ostler" <42vince@...> wrote:
          > Does anyone have any information on an exsistant trestle table?

          A lot of people in this thread seem to be confusing the Cluny with the Musee des Arts Decoratifs. They are two very different museums.

          The trestle pictured in the Dragon article is listed as being at the Des Arts, not the Cluny.

          The Des Arts I have only been to once and I cannot speak to whether they have a trestle table or not. I do not remember one, but it was about a decade ago. They did have a magnificent late 15th C bed, though, in a gorgeous late-medieval room.

          [ http://tinyurl.com/pd3h7m - from this blog: http://tinyurl.com/pb9b9m ]

          However, I have been to the Cluny about a dozen times from 1996 to 2004. I practically lived there (and at Notre Dame and Saint Chapelle) whenever I was in Paris.

          They've moved a number of things around since the last time I was there -- judging from pictures taken by others and posted online -- but the only trestle table I know of in the Cluny's collection is a beautifully painted trestle table _top_ (which is three panels wide with two sets of hinges on the edges so it could fold by thirds for storage/transport) that they have mounted on a wall.

          [ At the top, with the heraldry. http://tinyurl.com/mxpqlp
          - from this page: http://tinyurl.com/p88geg ]

          (A very similar -- suspiciously so -- table top is depicted in Ottfried Neubecker's "Heraldry: Sources, Symbols and Meanings." It's in Germany somewhere, if I recall correctly. I've often wondered if they were made, or at least decorated, by the same person/workshop.)

          I do not recall seeing any trestle table legs on display at the Cluny at all.

          -Iain of Malagentia
        • Coblaith Muimnech
          ... It s listed as being in both, as I wrote before. The main text of the French version of the article (page 8) has a parenthetical notation indicating item
          Message 4 of 19 , Sep 13, 2009
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            Mary Ostler wrote:
            > I will be building a conjecturally acurate sawhorse style trestle
            > table. I am in the research stage, and found a reference to an
            > exsistant table at the Musee de Cluny.

            > Original Reference
            > http://www.companie-of-st-george.ch/cms/sitefiles/dragon-7.pdf
            > page 7 bottom left (written) Page 9 #P (drawing)


            Iain of Malagentia asserted:
            > The trestle pictured in the Dragon article is listed as being at
            > the Des Arts, not the Cluny.

            It's listed as being in both, as I wrote before. The main text of
            the French version of the article (page 8) has a parenthetical
            notation indicating item "p" in the illustration on page 9 is the
            Cluny trestle. The description of "p" in the list of sources for the
            images, however, reads, "tréteau tripode, Musée des arts decoratifs,
            Paris, XVe siecle". One or the other is obviously an error, but
            there's no way to tell which.


            Coblaith Muimnech
          • brother_wm
            ... http://www.woodcraft.com/images/enewsletter/Jawhorse_01.jpg Well, it looks like the tripod legs. Might have a problem with the materials used though.
            Message 5 of 19 , Sep 15, 2009
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              --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, "mary_ostler" <42vince@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hello all,
              >
              > I am entering an A&S competion in October. {snip}
              > Does anyone have any information on an exsistant trestle table?
              >
              > Original Reference
              > http://www.companie-of-st-george.ch/cms/sitefiles/dragon-7.pdf
              > page 7 bottom left (written) Page 9 #P (drawing)
              >
              > Any and all help is appreciated.
              >
              > Cheers
              > Mary Ostler
              >
              http://www.woodcraft.com/images/enewsletter/Jawhorse_01.jpg

              Well, it looks like the tripod legs.

              Might have a problem with the materials used though.

              brother william
              nothing new under the sun
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