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Re: [MedievalSawdust] Cluny Trestle table info?

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  • Colleen Vince
    I saw the same discrepancy on museum of reference in the Dragon article. I have managed to send an inquiry off to the Musee de Arts, but I couldn t find a
    Message 1 of 19 , Sep 10 4:20 PM
      I saw the same discrepancy on museum of reference in the Dragon article. 
      I have managed to send an inquiry off to the Musee de Arts, 
      but I couldn't find a contact email address for the Cluny (i'll try again).

      I am more worried about the sawhorse part of the table than the board. 
      I have a few images of underside of folding/collapsing  tables in period, 
      but the saw horse is so much different from the stretcher trestle tables.
      A period examples  even heavily repaired to back up illuminations 
      would be awesome.

      Thanks  Coblaith

      The text says, "To my knowledge, the only surviving (and much-
      repaired) medieval trestle is the positively ornate model at the
      Musée de Cluny in Paris." It says nothing about an entire surviving
      table.

      > I have put all my search engine skills to work, and have came up
      > with nothing.

      Museum staff are often happy to share all sorts of information if you
      ask them directly. The main text of the French version of the
      article does indicate that item "p" in the illustration on page 9 is
      the Cluny trestle, but the description of "p" in the list of sources
      for the images reads, "tréteau tripode, Musée des arts decoratifs,
      Paris, XVe siecle". If you can't reach the author of the article to
      ask him which attribution is erroneous, you might want to check with
      both institutions (the Musée des arts decoratifs, Paris <http://
      www.lesartsdecoratifs.fr/english-439/> and the Musée National du
      Moyen Âge Thermes de Cluny <http://www.musee-moyenage.fr/ang/
      index.html>). There're English-language versions of both their
      homepages, so I assume somebody at each could answer a question in
      English. It might take a while for an e-mail sent to the information
      address for the Musée National du Moyen Âge to be routed to the right
      people, but the website for the Musée des arts decoratifs, Paris,
      offers direct contact info for the curator and assistant curator of
      the Department of the Middle Ages/Renaissance <http://
      www.lesartsdecoratifs.fr/english-439/the-institution/contacts-2151>,
      so you should be able to get a quick answer there.

       

      Coblaith Muimnech
      <mailto:Coblaith@...>
      <http://coblaith.net>

      .
       































       
      --
      Mary Ostler    
      Apprentice to Mistress Agnes Cresewyke
      www.maryostler.com
    • Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart
      I missed the part about the line drawing, sorry. ( I know this is not the answer you want ) I cannot document it, but this is the plausible solution I came
      Message 2 of 19 , Sep 10 4:39 PM
        I missed the part about the line drawing, sorry.



        ( I know this is not the answer you want )

        I cannot document it, but this is the 'plausible' solution I came up with.

        http://s147.photobucket.com/albums/r295/ConalOhAirt/SCA%20woodworking/?action=view&current=karlstrestle.jpg

        While not documentable it is a possible period solution that fits
        within the types of solutions they could have used.
         
        Our need for portability is a bit more restrictive than theirs was I'd
        be willing to bet.


        Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart

        Aude Aliquid Dignum
        ' Dare Something Worthy '



        From: Colleen Vince <42vince@...>
        To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2009 7:20:09 PM
        Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] Cluny Trestle table info?

         

        I saw the same discrepancy on museum of reference in the Dragon article. 

        I have managed to send an inquiry off to the Musee de Arts, 
        but I couldn't find a contact email address for the Cluny (i'll try again).

        I am more worried about the sawhorse part of the table than the board. 
        I have a few images of underside of folding/collapsing   tables in period, 
        but the saw horse is so much different from the stretcher trestle tables.
        A period examples  even heavily repaired to back up illuminations 
        would be awesome.

        Thanks  Coblaith

        The text says, "To my knowledge, the only surviving (and much-
        repaired) medieval trestle is the positively ornate model at the
        Musée de Cluny in Paris." It says nothing about an entire surviving
        table.

        > I have put all my search engine skills to work, and have came up
        > with nothing.

        Museum staff are often happy to share all sorts of information if you
        ask them directly. The main text of the French version of the
        article does indicate that item "p" in the illustration on page 9 is
        the Cluny trestle, but the description of "p" in the list of sources
        for the images reads, "tréteau tripode, Musée des arts decoratifs,
        Paris, XVe siecle". If you can't reach the author of the article to
        ask him which attribution is erroneous, you might want to check with
        both institutions (the Musée des arts decoratifs, Paris <http://
        www.lesartsdecorati fs.fr/english- 439/> and the Musée National du
        Moyen Âge Thermes de Cluny <http://www.musee- moyenage. fr/ang/
        index.html>). There're English-language versions of both their
        homepages, so I assume somebody at each could answer a question in
        English. It might take a while for an e-mail sent to the information
        address for the Musée National du Moyen Âge to be routed to the right
        people, but the website for the Musée des arts decoratifs, Paris,
        offers direct contact info for the curator and assistant curator of
        the Department of the Middle Ages/Renaissance <http://
        www.lesartsdecorati fs.fr/english- 439/the-institut ion/contacts- 2151>,
        so you should be able to get a quick answer there.

         

        Coblaith Muimnech
        <mailto:Coblaith@sbcglobal. net>
        <http://coblaith. net>

        .
         































         
        --
        Mary Ostler    
        Apprentice to Mistress Agnes Cresewyke
        www.maryostler. com

      • Sean Powell
        This too is a project on my to-do list. If someone has pictures that they feel comfortable sharing I would love a copy. Thank you, Sean
        Message 3 of 19 , Sep 10 7:48 PM
          This too is a project on my to-do list. If someone has pictures that
          they feel comfortable sharing I would love a copy.

          Thank you,
          Sean

          Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart wrote:
          >
          >
          > I missed the part about the line drawing, sorry.
          >
          >
          >
          > ( I know this is not the answer you want )
          >
          > I cannot document it, but this is the 'plausible' solution I came up with.
          >
          > http://s147.photobucket.com/albums/r295/ConalOhAirt/SCA%20woodworking/?action=view¤t=karlstrestle.jpg
          > <http://s147.photobucket.com/albums/r295/ConalOhAirt/SCA%20woodworking/?action=view¤t=karlstrestle.jpg>
          >
          > While not documentable it is a possible period solution that fits
          > within the types of solutions they could have used.
          >
          > Our need for portability is a bit more restrictive than theirs was I'd
          > be willing to bet.
          >
          >
          > Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart
          >
          > Aude Aliquid Dignum
          > ' Dare Something Worthy '
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
          > *From:* Colleen Vince <42vince@...>
          > *To:* medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
          > *Sent:* Thursday, September 10, 2009 7:20:09 PM
          > *Subject:* Re: [MedievalSawdust] Cluny Trestle table info?
          >
          >
          >
          > I saw the same discrepancy on museum of reference in the Dragon article.
          >
          > I have managed to send an inquiry off to the Musee de Arts,
          > but I couldn't find a contact email address for the Cluny (i'll try
          > again).
          >
          > I am more worried about the sawhorse part of the table than the board.
          > I have a few images of underside of folding/collapsing tables in
          > period,
          > but the saw horse is so much different from the stretcher trestle tables.
          > A period examples even heavily repaired to back up illuminations
          > would be awesome.
          >
          > Thanks Coblaith
          >
          > The text says, "To my knowledge, the only surviving (and much-
          > repaired) medieval trestle is the positively ornate model at the
          > Musée de Cluny in Paris." It says nothing about an entire surviving
          > table.
          >
          > > I have put all my search engine skills to work, and have came up
          > > with nothing.
          >
          > Museum staff are often happy to share all sorts of information if you
          > ask them directly. The main text of the French version of the
          > article does indicate that item "p" in the illustration on page 9 is
          > the Cluny trestle, but the description of "p" in the list of sources
          > for the images reads, "tréteau tripode, Musée des arts decoratifs,
          > Paris, XVe siecle". If you can't reach the author of the article to
          > ask him which attribution is erroneous, you might want to check with
          > both institutions (the Musée des arts decoratifs, Paris <http://
          > www.lesartsdecorati fs.fr/english- 439/
          > <http://www.lesartsdecoratifs.fr/english-439/>> and the Musée
          > National du
          > Moyen Âge Thermes de Cluny <http://www.musee- moyenage. fr/ang/
          > <http://www.musee-moyenage.fr/ang/>
          > index.html>). There're English-language versions of both their
          > homepages, so I assume somebody at each could answer a question in
          > English. It might take a while for an e-mail sent to the information
          > address for the Musée National du Moyen Âge to be routed to the right
          > people, but the website for the Musée des arts decoratifs, Paris,
          > offers direct contact info for the curator and assistant curator of
          > the Department of the Middle Ages/Renaissance <http://
          > www.lesartsdecorati fs.fr/english- 439/the-institut ion/contacts-
          > 2151
          > <http://www.lesartsdecoratifs.fr/english-439/the-institution/contacts-2151>>,
          >
          > so you should be able to get a quick answer there.
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Coblaith Muimnech
          > <mailto:Coblaith@sbcglobal. net <mailto:Coblaith%40sbcglobal.net>>
          > <http://coblaith. net <http://coblaith.net>>
          >
          > .
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
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          >
          >
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          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > --
          > Mary Ostler
          > Apprentice to Mistress Agnes Cresewyke
          > www.maryostler. com <http://www.maryostler.com>
          >
          >
          >
          >
        • Bruce S. R. Lee
          Not exactly what you are looking for, but there was a saw horse found in the Mary Rose as well as 2 trestles. Before the Mast Edit. Julie Gardiner Pub. 2005,
          Message 4 of 19 , Sep 11 1:45 AM
            Not exactly what you are looking for, but there was a saw horse found
            in the Mary Rose as well as 2 trestles.

            Before the Mast
            Edit. Julie Gardiner
            Pub. 2005, The Mary Rose Trust
            ISBN 0-9544029-4-4
            (this book is still in print)

            Carpenter's saw horse, page 318 item 81A1743/5. Top bar
            810mmx133mmx80mm, it stood 790mm high. 4 legged with through
            mortises, all legs survived.

            There were also 2 three legged trestles or 'Dormans' found, described
            on page 379, items 81A0073 & 81A0932, figure 9.5 right. Only 1 leg
            remained, the mortises were not through & the tenon was 'fox-wedged'
            in place. There are no dimensions given in the text but there is a
            scale on the line drawing.

            There is also a illustration, page 381 Fig 9.7 top, of an 'early
            sixteenth century Flemish painted glass window quarry' (held in the
            Cloisters, NY) clearly showing 3 legged trestles that have been used
            to support a board table top.

            This should help you if you want to get the book or just the pages
            through 'Inter Library Loan'. If you are at all interesting early
            1500's material culture I highly recommend spending the money for
            your own copy - I am seriously considering getting a second copy as I
            seem to be wearing out my current one :-)


            Regards
            Brusi of Orkney
            Rowany/Lochac
            Sydney/Australia

            At 05:06 AM 11/09/2009, you wrote:
            >Hello all,
            >
            >I am entering an A&S competion in October. I will be building a
            >conjecturally acurate sawhorse style trestle table. I am in the
            >research stage, and found a reference to an exsistant table at the
            >Musee de Cluny. This was the first I have seen any reference to a
            >surviving table.
            >
            >I have put all my search engine skills to work, and have came up with nothing.
            >
            >Does anyone have any information on an exsistant trestle table?
            >
            >Original Reference
            >http://www.companie-of-st-george.ch/cms/sitefiles/dragon-7.pdf
            >page 7 bottom left (written) Page 9 #P (drawing)
            >
            >Any and all help is appreciated.
            >
            >Cheers
            >Mary Ostler
            >
            >Lions Gate, Tir Righ, An Tir
            >Apprentice to Mistress Agnes Cresewyke
            >www.maryostler.com
          • Bill McNutt
            Sigh. I got the same deal with the Mary Rose Trust. Bummer, eh? From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com [mailto:medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
            Message 5 of 19 , Sep 11 7:14 AM

              Sigh.

               

              I got the same deal with the Mary Rose Trust.  Bummer, eh?

               

              From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com [mailto:medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of jljonsn9663
              Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2009 6:56 PM
              To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [MedievalSawdust] Re: Cluny Trestle table info?

               

               


              A short version of what I was going to PM her is that I got permission to take the photos for personal use only, and I'd rather not irritate the museum by having them in the public domain. Notice how the "Dragon" she posted the link to has line drawings? Same deal. If she uses the pics in the documentation for the competition, that's different - it's only the one copy for the display.

              So, I suppose I don't need to PM her.

              J/G

              --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart <baronconal@...> wrote:

              >
              > I mind that you are talking about sharing pictures
              > and I don't get to see them too...
              >
              > ( only barely just kidding )
              >
              > try something like photobucket.com if you are
              > willing to share with everyone.
              >
              >
              >
              > Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart
              >
              > Aude Aliquid Dignum
              > ' Dare Something Worthy '
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ________________________________
              > From: jljonsn9663 <jljonsn@...>
              > To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2009 6:24:32 PM
              > Subject: [MedievalSawdust] Re: Cluny Trestle table info?
              >
              >
              > Answering the posting photos online part off-line.
              >
              > J/G
              >
              > --- In medievalsawdust@ yahoogroups. com, Colleen Vince <42vince@ >
              wrote:
              > >
              > > Oh joyous day. I would love to get my hands on the photos. Do you
              remember
              > > which museum it was in?
              > >
              > > Do you mind I if I used the image in documenation that would
              eventually be
              > > placed online?
              > >
              > > So excited....
              > >
              > > Mary
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > --
              > > Mary Ostler
              > > Apprentice to Mistress Agnes Cresewyke
              > > www.maryostler. com
              > >
              >

            • Bill McNutt
              That’s something I run into time and again. Much of the stability of furniture from the high middle ages came from its mass. Our need for things to be
              Message 6 of 19 , Sep 11 7:16 AM

                That’s something I run into time and again.  Much of the stability of furniture from the high middle ages came from its mass.  Our need for things to be light and pack flat just wasn’t the case in period.

                 

                They had serfs for that.

                 

                Will

                 

                From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com [mailto:medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart
                Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2009 7:40 PM
                To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] Cluny Trestle table info?

                 

                 

                I missed the part about the line drawing, sorry.



                ( I know this is not the answer you want )

                I cannot document it, but this is the 'plausible' solution I came up with.

                http://s147.photobucket.com/albums/r295/ConalOhAirt/SCA%20woodworking/?action=view&current=karlstrestle.jpg

                While not documentable it is a possible period solution that fits
                within the types of solutions they could have used.

                 
                Our need for portability is a bit more restrictive than theirs was I'd
                be willing to bet.

                Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart

                Aude Aliquid Dignum
                ' Dare Something Worthy '

                 

                 


                From: Colleen Vince <42vince@...>
                To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2009 7:20:09 PM
                Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] Cluny Trestle table info?

                 

                I saw the same discrepancy on museum of reference in the Dragon article. 

                I have managed to send an inquiry off to the Musee de Arts, 

                but I couldn't find a contact email address for the Cluny (i'll try again).

                 

                I am more worried about the sawhorse part of the table than the board. 

                I have a few images of underside of folding/collapsing   tables in period, 

                but the saw horse is so much different from the stretcher trestle tables.

                A period examples  even heavily repaired to back up illuminations 

                would be awesome.

                Thanks  Coblaith

                The text says, "To my knowledge, the only surviving (and much-
                repaired) medieval trestle is the positively ornate model at the
                Musée de Cluny in Paris." It says nothing about an entire surviving

                table.

                > I have put all my search engine skills to work, and have came up
                > with nothing.

                Museum staff are often happy to share all sorts of information if you
                ask them directly. The main text of the French version of the
                article does indicate that item "p" in the illustration on page 9 is
                the Cluny trestle, but the description of "p" in the list of sources
                for the images reads, "tréteau tripode, Musée des arts decoratifs,
                Paris, XVe siecle". If you can't reach the author of the article to
                ask him which attribution is erroneous, you might want to check with
                both institutions (the Musée des arts decoratifs, Paris <http://
                www.lesartsdecorati fs.fr/english- 439/> and the Musée National du
                Moyen Âge Thermes de Cluny <http://www.musee- moyenage. fr/ang/
                index.html>). There're English-language versions of both their
                homepages, so I assume somebody at each could answer a question in
                English. It might take a while for an e-mail sent to the information
                address for the Musée National du Moyen Âge to be routed to the right
                people, but the website for the Musée des arts decoratifs, Paris,
                offers direct contact info for the curator and assistant curator of
                the Department of the Middle Ages/Renaissance <http://
                www.lesartsdecorati fs.fr/english- 439/the-institut ion/contacts- 2151>,
                so you should be able to get a quick answer there.

                 

                 


                Coblaith Muimnech
                <mailto:Coblaith@sbcglobal. net>
                <http://coblaith. net>

                .

                Error! Filename not specified. 

                 

                 

                 

                 

                 

                 

                 

                 

                 

                 

                 

                 

                 

                 

                 

                 

                 

                 

                 

                 

                 

                 

                 

                 

                 

                 

                 

                 

                 

                 

                 

                 

                --
                Mary Ostler    
                Apprentice to Mistress Agnes Cresewyke
                www.maryostler. com

                 

              • AlbionWood
                I photo-toured both the Cluny and Arts Decoratifs in 2001, and this trestle was certainly not on display in either museum then. Definitely worth investigation
                Message 7 of 19 , Sep 11 9:24 AM
                  I photo-toured both the Cluny and Arts Decoratifs in 2001, and this trestle was certainly not on display in either museum then.  Definitely worth investigation to see what's known about it, though don't get hopes too high - many of these objects have received only cursory attention, with only brief mentions in long-out-of-print foreign journals.

                  Great article by John Howe, though!

                  Tim

                • i_odlin
                  ... A lot of people in this thread seem to be confusing the Cluny with the Musee des Arts Decoratifs. They are two very different museums. The trestle
                  Message 8 of 19 , Sep 13 2:09 AM
                    --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, "mary_ostler" <42vince@...> wrote:
                    > Does anyone have any information on an exsistant trestle table?

                    A lot of people in this thread seem to be confusing the Cluny with the Musee des Arts Decoratifs. They are two very different museums.

                    The trestle pictured in the Dragon article is listed as being at the Des Arts, not the Cluny.

                    The Des Arts I have only been to once and I cannot speak to whether they have a trestle table or not. I do not remember one, but it was about a decade ago. They did have a magnificent late 15th C bed, though, in a gorgeous late-medieval room.

                    [ http://tinyurl.com/pd3h7m - from this blog: http://tinyurl.com/pb9b9m ]

                    However, I have been to the Cluny about a dozen times from 1996 to 2004. I practically lived there (and at Notre Dame and Saint Chapelle) whenever I was in Paris.

                    They've moved a number of things around since the last time I was there -- judging from pictures taken by others and posted online -- but the only trestle table I know of in the Cluny's collection is a beautifully painted trestle table _top_ (which is three panels wide with two sets of hinges on the edges so it could fold by thirds for storage/transport) that they have mounted on a wall.

                    [ At the top, with the heraldry. http://tinyurl.com/mxpqlp
                    - from this page: http://tinyurl.com/p88geg ]

                    (A very similar -- suspiciously so -- table top is depicted in Ottfried Neubecker's "Heraldry: Sources, Symbols and Meanings." It's in Germany somewhere, if I recall correctly. I've often wondered if they were made, or at least decorated, by the same person/workshop.)

                    I do not recall seeing any trestle table legs on display at the Cluny at all.

                    -Iain of Malagentia
                  • Coblaith Muimnech
                    ... It s listed as being in both, as I wrote before. The main text of the French version of the article (page 8) has a parenthetical notation indicating item
                    Message 9 of 19 , Sep 13 3:01 AM
                      Mary Ostler wrote:
                      > I will be building a conjecturally acurate sawhorse style trestle
                      > table. I am in the research stage, and found a reference to an
                      > exsistant table at the Musee de Cluny.

                      > Original Reference
                      > http://www.companie-of-st-george.ch/cms/sitefiles/dragon-7.pdf
                      > page 7 bottom left (written) Page 9 #P (drawing)


                      Iain of Malagentia asserted:
                      > The trestle pictured in the Dragon article is listed as being at
                      > the Des Arts, not the Cluny.

                      It's listed as being in both, as I wrote before. The main text of
                      the French version of the article (page 8) has a parenthetical
                      notation indicating item "p" in the illustration on page 9 is the
                      Cluny trestle. The description of "p" in the list of sources for the
                      images, however, reads, "tréteau tripode, Musée des arts decoratifs,
                      Paris, XVe siecle". One or the other is obviously an error, but
                      there's no way to tell which.


                      Coblaith Muimnech
                    • brother_wm
                      ... http://www.woodcraft.com/images/enewsletter/Jawhorse_01.jpg Well, it looks like the tripod legs. Might have a problem with the materials used though.
                      Message 10 of 19 , Sep 15 7:55 AM
                        --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, "mary_ostler" <42vince@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Hello all,
                        >
                        > I am entering an A&S competion in October. {snip}
                        > Does anyone have any information on an exsistant trestle table?
                        >
                        > Original Reference
                        > http://www.companie-of-st-george.ch/cms/sitefiles/dragon-7.pdf
                        > page 7 bottom left (written) Page 9 #P (drawing)
                        >
                        > Any and all help is appreciated.
                        >
                        > Cheers
                        > Mary Ostler
                        >
                        http://www.woodcraft.com/images/enewsletter/Jawhorse_01.jpg

                        Well, it looks like the tripod legs.

                        Might have a problem with the materials used though.

                        brother william
                        nothing new under the sun
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