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RE: [MedievalSawdust] Fw: this list is useless

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  • scott gates
    As one of the few Jews on this list, I prefer the term Period-nazi, instead of authenticity-nazi. The period-(put favorite insult here), is usually only
    Message 1 of 24 , May 4, 2009
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      As one of the few Jews on this list, I prefer the term Period-nazi, instead of authenticity-nazi.
      The period-(put favorite insult here), is usually only semi-informed about what the hell they are talking about, and once read a book or two, maybe a couple monographs that are on the subject at hand, and will not even listen to counter arguments put forth by recognized experts in the field. This is the type of person I encounter the most.

      I love folks who want stuff restored with authentic years old materials, using tools and techniques to do so. OK I can replace this with same species and close grain using my dremel, and palm sander, using an invisible modern adhesive, or I can hand carve the stupid thing from a piece of wood that came from another broken piece, and guess how hard it is to find the same gain pattern then for 28 times the cost. WHAT 28 times the cost? Yeah it will take me weeks to buy another broken antique to match yours, and then hand carve something from it.
      But we paid only 75% of what you want for an unqie repair. Well for much less I have some oak over here that is very close, and can have it done for you by the end of the week. It isn't the same. I always kept a couple small showpieces about in pairs. Like feet, and asked which was which. No one ever got more then 50-50. It usually made the point, but sometimes you got paid. I don't mind doing the work, but it slows everything else down.

      Evil is, as Evil does








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    • Dan Baker
      If you don t mind I will stay out of the whole nazi word dispute. But I do have something to say about ultra authenticity in wood working. I have run across
      Message 2 of 24 , May 4, 2009
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        If you don't mind I will stay out of the whole nazi word dispute. But I do have something to say about ultra authenticity in wood working.  I have run across many people who somehow think it;s not right unless it looks old.  Which is utter nonsense.  What do they think someone made some chest and then beat it up because it still looked new?  Not at all, they made a new chest and used it.  Artificail antiques for sca use are (in my opinion) reduculous looking.   Also when it comes down to :oh you have to use this paticular wood, or its just not right is also a silly arguement.  Consider the viking burial ships Gokstad and Oseburg.  They had nearly identical beds on them (not the dragon bed, but the other ones)  One ship they were all oak, the other ship they were all birch.  Why?  My guess is when the order came in the woodworker used what he had on hand ready to use.  By the same arguement we can use whatever wood we have on hand that meets the need and is available and/or cost effective for us.  I have made a welsh ark out of sassafrass, not only was the wood beautiful but I lost no points for using a new world wood.  It met the requirements of the project, and it was readily avalable (heh 20 cents a board foot)  Authenticity nuts, fasists, nazis whatever you want to call them are more oft concerened with details that no one really cares about and they really need to get a life

        Btw, the sassafrass is kind of a yuck grey when you work it, but a little linseed oil and it takes on a gorgeous honey/brownish-grey that is worth the trouble.  and as an arromatic it makes a great subsiture for ceader in a grab chest.  The 20 cents a boaard foot was a fluke I got it out of the back lot of a saw mill where it got ordered and sat for 5 years as no one ever picked it up.

        -Rhys

        On Mon, May 4, 2009 at 11:48 AM, scott gates <bitterpluto@...> wrote:


        As one of the few Jews on this list, I prefer the term Period-nazi, instead of authenticity-nazi.
        The period-(put favorite insult here), is usually only semi-informed about what the hell they are talking about, and once read a book or two, maybe a couple monographs that are on the subject at hand, and will not even listen to counter arguments put forth by recognized experts in the field. This is the type of person I encounter the most.

        I love folks who want stuff restored with authentic years old materials, using tools and techniques to do so. OK I can replace this with same species and close grain using my dremel, and palm sander, using an invisible modern adhesive, or I can hand carve the stupid thing from a piece of wood that came from another broken piece, and guess how hard it is to find the same gain pattern then for 28 times the cost. WHAT 28 times the cost? Yeah it will take me weeks to buy another broken antique to match yours, and then hand carve something from it.
        But we paid only 75% of what you want for an unqie repair. Well for much less I have some oak over here that is very close, and can have it done for you by the end of the week. It isn't the same. I always kept a couple small showpieces about in pairs. Like feet, and asked which was which. No one ever got more then 50-50. It usually made the point, but sometimes you got paid. I don't mind doing the work, but it slows everything else down.

        Evil is, as Evil does








        Hotmail® has ever-growing storage! Don’t worry about storage limits. Check it out.



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      • sancoeur
        I m afraid I have to chime in with logan here. Having sat through a few flame wars on soc.history.medieval (those of you who have been there know exactly who
        Message 3 of 24 , May 4, 2009
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          I'm afraid I have to chime in with logan here. Having sat through a few flame wars on soc.history.medieval (those of you who have been there know exactly who I'm talking about), I can assure you that as long as I've been subscribed (since Aug 26, 2003, though I could have sworn it was earlier) I have *never* seen what I would consider to be a "flame war".

          Passionate discussions, yes - flame war, not even close.

          In fact, as long as someone isn't talking out of their..."nether regions"...you've all been extremely tolerant and helpful for those of us who aren't even SCA.

          As for the person who asked a question and failed to get an answer, that's unfortunate, but it happens - questions occasionally get lost in the shuffle, especially if said question is asked in the middle of a snow-storm of other emails. It's happened to me on a number of mailing lists, on a variety of different topics. I patiently wait for things to calm down, and then try it again. And since I (usually! <g>) prefer to keep my mouth shut when I don't know the answer to something, that's probably what happened in their case. At least, as far as I'm concerned. And rather than assume some vast conspiracy to be insulting and offensive, I presume that others either didn't have their answer, or missed the question entirely.

          Baron Conal, if you're entertaining thoughts of taking this person's advice and shutting down the list, put my name in the "Nay" column - I have learned huge amounts about woodworking in general, and medieval woodworking in particular. Thanks to everyone's patience and knowledge, I've taken on tasks I'd have never considered before (hand-cutting dovetail joints, for instance). I've been inspired to do more, and better - and hopefully, one day I'll have something worthy of putting in a folder for the review and critique of the other list-members!

          Wolf

          --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, "logan" <logan@...> wrote:
          >
          > i do not share the opinion of the person you quoted. while i find it
          > amusing that folks choose to be offended by the term "period-nazi" (bet they
          > didnt care about the soup-nazi on seinfeld) i think its good for folks to
          > talk things like that out. especially on a list like this where we should
          > be sharing our knowledge about period woodcraft techniques. over the years
          > i know ive learned a lot and been inspired by many. as far as topics like
          > the benches, i found nothing offensive or indicative of a flame war. its
          > impossible to offend me so i guess my former point isnt that important.
          > however, i do think that both sides of the argument were worthy of
          > consideration. when weighing the good and the bad, the productive and the
          > nonsense, i think we all find more value than waste on this list. one
          > person clearly disagreed and, apparently, unsubscribed. thats too bad but
          > it is unavoidable in any situation devoid of actual conversation between
          > open-minded and rational people.
          >
          >
          >
          > regards
          >
          > logan
          >
          >
          >
          > "I never did give them hell. I just told the truth, and they thought it was
          > hell."
          > Harry S Truman
          >
          > "If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his
          > vengeance need not be feared"
          > Niccolo Machiavelli
          >
          > www.ebonwoulfe.com <http://www.ebonwoulfe.com/>
          > www.fighterpractice.com
          >
          >
          >
          > From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
          > [mailto:medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart
          > Sent: Monday, May 04, 2009 10:13 AM
          > To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: [MedievalSawdust] Fw: this list is useless
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > hope we are all happy.....
          >
          >
          >
          > Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart
          >
          > Aude Aliquid Dignum
          > ' Dare Something Worthy '
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > name removed....
          >
          >
          > I joined this list to learn about medieval woodworking. It's nothing but an
          > endless series of flame wars. I tried asking someone a question but I never
          > got a response. If you really want to promote period woodworking, destroy
          > this list before is chases off more people. I'm unsubscribing now.
          >
        • leaking pen
          I would call the latest incarnation a flamewar, myself, but largely due to personal emails attacking my integrity and intelligence, and claiming that i was
          Message 4 of 24 , May 4, 2009
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            I would call the latest incarnation a flamewar, myself, but largely
            due to personal emails attacking my integrity and intelligence, and
            claiming that i was being "psuedo scientific" Sigh.

            And agreed. This list has done me wonders of good. Please do not delete it.

            Now, if we could also get a good message board somewhere.

            On Mon, May 4, 2009 at 10:11 AM, sancoeur <wolfeyes@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > I'm afraid I have to chime in with logan here. Having sat through a few
            > flame wars on soc.history.medieval (those of you who have been there know
            > exactly who I'm talking about), I can assure you that as long as I've been
            > subscribed (since Aug 26, 2003, though I could have sworn it was earlier) I
            > have *never* seen what I would consider to be a "flame war".
            >
            > Passionate discussions, yes - flame war, not even close.
            >
            > In fact, as long as someone isn't talking out of their..."nether
            > regions"...you've all been extremely tolerant and helpful for those of us
            > who aren't even SCA.
            >
            > As for the person who asked a question and failed to get an answer, that's
            > unfortunate, but it happens - questions occasionally get lost in the
            > shuffle, especially if said question is asked in the middle of a snow-storm
            > of other emails. It's happened to me on a number of mailing lists, on a
            > variety of different topics. I patiently wait for things to calm down, and
            > then try it again. And since I (usually! <g>) prefer to keep my mouth shut
            > when I don't know the answer to something, that's probably what happened in
            > their case. At least, as far as I'm concerned. And rather than assume some
            > vast conspiracy to be insulting and offensive, I presume that others either
            > didn't have their answer, or missed the question entirely.
            >
            > Baron Conal, if you're entertaining thoughts of taking this person's advice
            > and shutting down the list, put my name in the "Nay" column - I have learned
            > huge amounts about woodworking in general, and medieval woodworking in
            > particular. Thanks to everyone's patience and knowledge, I've taken on tasks
            > I'd have never considered before (hand-cutting dovetail joints, for
            > instance). I've been inspired to do more, and better - and hopefully, one
            > day I'll have something worthy of putting in a folder for the review and
            > critique of the other list-members!
            >
            > Wolf
            >
            > --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, "logan" <logan@...> wrote:
            >>
            >> i do not share the opinion of the person you quoted. while i find it
            >> amusing that folks choose to be offended by the term "period-nazi" (bet
            >> they
            >> didnt care about the soup-nazi on seinfeld) i think its good for folks to
            >> talk things like that out. especially on a list like this where we should
            >> be sharing our knowledge about period woodcraft techniques. over the years
            >> i know ive learned a lot and been inspired by many. as far as topics like
            >> the benches, i found nothing offensive or indicative of a flame war. its
            >> impossible to offend me so i guess my former point isnt that important.
            >> however, i do think that both sides of the argument were worthy of
            >> consideration. when weighing the good and the bad, the productive and the
            >> nonsense, i think we all find more value than waste on this list. one
            >> person clearly disagreed and, apparently, unsubscribed. thats too bad but
            >> it is unavoidable in any situation devoid of actual conversation between
            >> open-minded and rational people.
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >> regards
            >>
            >> logan
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >> "I never did give them hell. I just told the truth, and they thought it
            >> was
            >> hell."
            >> Harry S Truman
            >>
            >> "If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his
            >> vengeance need not be feared"
            >> Niccolo Machiavelli
            >>
            >> www.ebonwoulfe.com <http://www.ebonwoulfe.com/>
            >> www.fighterpractice.com
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >> From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
            >> [mailto:medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Conal O'hAirt Jim
            >> Hart
            >> Sent: Monday, May 04, 2009 10:13 AM
            >> To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
            >> Subject: [MedievalSawdust] Fw: this list is useless
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >> hope we are all happy.....
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >> Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart
            >>
            >> Aude Aliquid Dignum
            >> ' Dare Something Worthy '
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >> name removed....
            >>
            >>
            >> I joined this list to learn about medieval woodworking. It's nothing but
            >> an
            >> endless series of flame wars. I tried asking someone a question but I
            >> never
            >> got a response. If you really want to promote period woodworking, destroy
            >> this list before is chases off more people. I'm unsubscribing now.
            >>
            >
            >
          • Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart
            I HAVE NO PLANS TO SHUT DOWN THIS LIST do not want that rumor to start...... Baron Conal O hAirt / Jim Hart Aude Aliquid Dignum Dare Something Worthy
            Message 5 of 24 , May 4, 2009
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              I HAVE NO PLANS TO SHUT DOWN THIS LIST

              do not want that rumor to start......
               
              Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart

              Aude Aliquid Dignum
              ' Dare Something Worthy '



              From: sancoeur <wolfeyes@...>
              To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Monday, May 4, 2009 1:11:55 PM
              Subject: [MedievalSawdust] Re: Fw: this list is useless

              I'm afraid I have to chime in with logan here. Having sat through a few flame wars on soc.history. medieval (those of you who have been there know exactly who I'm talking about), I can assure you that as long as I've been subscribed (since Aug 26, 2003, though I could have sworn it was earlier) I have *never* seen what I would consider to be a "flame war".

              Passionate discussions, yes - flame war, not even close.

              In fact, as long as someone isn't talking out of their..."nether regions"...you' ve all been extremely tolerant and helpful for those of us who aren't even SCA.

              As for the person who asked a question and failed to get an answer, that's unfortunate, but it happens - questions occasionally get lost in the shuffle, especially if said question is asked in the middle of a snow-storm of other emails. It's happened to me on a number of mailing lists, on a variety of different topics. I patiently wait for things to calm down, and then try it again. And since I (usually! <g>) prefer to keep my mouth shut when I don't know the answer to something, that's probably what happened in their case. At least, as far as I'm concerned. And rather than assume some vast conspiracy to be insulting and offensive, I presume that others either didn't have their answer, or missed the question entirely.

              Baron Conal, if you're entertaining thoughts of taking this person's advice and shutting down the list, put my name in the "Nay" column - I have learned huge amounts about woodworking in general, and medieval woodworking in particular. Thanks to everyone's patience and knowledge, I've taken on tasks I'd have never considered before (hand-cutting dovetail joints, for instance). I've been inspired to do more, and better - and hopefully, one day I'll have something worthy of putting in a folder for the review and critique of the other list-members!

              Wolf

              --- In medievalsawdust@ yahoogroups. com, "logan" <logan@...> wrote:
              >
              > i do not share the opinion of the person you quoted. while i find it
              > amusing that folks choose to be offended by the term "period-nazi" (bet they
              > didnt care about the soup-nazi on seinfeld) i think its good for folks to
              > talk things like that out. especially on a list like this where we should
              > be sharing our knowledge about period woodcraft techniques. over the years
              > i know ive learned a lot and been inspired by many. as far as topics like
              > the benches, i found nothing offensive or indicative of a flame war. its
              > impossible to offend me so i guess my former point isnt that important.
              > however, i do think that both sides of the argument were worthy of
              > consideration. when weighing the good and the bad, the productive and the
              > nonsense, i think we all find more value than waste on this list. one
              > person clearly disagreed and, apparently, unsubscribed. thats too bad but
              > it is unavoidable in any situation devoid of actual conversation between
              > open-minded and rational people.
              >
              >
              >
              > regards
              >
              > logan
              >
              >
              >
              > "I never did give them hell. I just told the truth, and they thought it was
              > hell."
              > Harry S Truman
              >
              > "If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his
              > vengeance need not be feared"
              > Niccolo Machiavelli
              >
              > www.ebonwoulfe. com <http://www.ebonwoul fe.com/>
              > www.fighterpractice .com
              >
              >
              >
              > From: medievalsawdust@ yahoogroups. com
              > [mailto:medievalsawdust@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart
              > Sent: Monday, May 04, 2009 10:13 AM
              > To: medievalsawdust@ yahoogroups. com
              > Subject: [MedievalSawdust] Fw: this list is useless
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > hope we are all happy.....
              >
              >
              >
              > Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart
              >
              > Aude Aliquid Dignum
              > ' Dare Something Worthy '
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > name removed....
              >
              >
              > I joined this list to learn about medieval woodworking. It's nothing but an
              > endless series of flame wars. I tried asking someone a question but I never
              > got a response. If you really want to promote period woodworking, destroy
              > this list before is chases off more people. I'm unsubscribing now.
              >


            • James Barker
              ... Reminds me of a George Carlin joke about driving any one driving slower than you is a moron and anyone going faster is a f**king maniac Trying to define
              Message 6 of 24 , May 4, 2009
              • 0 Attachment
                >>> Authenticity nuts, fasists, nazis whatever you want to call them are more oft concerened with details that no one really cares about and they really need to get a life<<<<
                 
                Reminds me of a George Carlin joke about driving "any one driving slower than you is a moron and anyone going faster is a f**king maniac"
                 
                Trying to define people as nuts, fascists, nazis based on your personal line is quite silly. Either you care about those details or you don't; does not matter either way. Why get angry at people who do care?

                James


                 

                To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                From: LordRhys@...
                Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 12:12:15 -0400
                Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] Fw: this list is useless



                If you don't mind I will stay out of the whole nazi word dispute. But I do have something to say about ultra authenticity in wood working.  I have run across many people who somehow think it;s not right unless it looks old.  Which is utter nonsense.  What do they think someone made some chest and then beat it up because it still looked new?  Not at all, they made a new chest and used it.  Artificail antiques for sca use are (in my opinion) reduculous looking.   Also when it comes down to :oh you have to use this paticular wood, or its just not right is also a silly arguement.  Consider the viking burial ships Gokstad and Oseburg.  They had nearly identical beds on them (not the dragon bed, but the other ones)  One ship they were all oak, the other ship they were all birch.  Why?  My guess is when the order came in the woodworker used what he had on hand ready to use.  By the same arguement we can use whatever wood we have on hand that meets the need and is available and/or cost effective for us.  I have made a welsh ark out of sassafrass, not only was the wood beautiful but I lost no points for using a new world wood.  It met the requirements of the project, and it was readily avalable (heh 20 cents a board foot)  Authenticity nuts, fasists, nazis whatever you want to call them are more oft concerened with details that no one really cares about and they really need to get a life

                Btw, the sassafrass is kind of a yuck grey when you work it, but a little linseed oil and it takes on a gorgeous honey/brownish-grey that is worth the trouble.  and as an arromatic it makes a great subsiture for ceader in a grab chest.  The 20 cents a boaard foot was a fluke I got it out of the back lot of a saw mill where it got ordered and sat for 5 years as no one ever picked it up.

                -Rhys

                On Mon, May 4, 2009 at 11:48 AM, scott gates <bitterpluto@...> wrote:


                As one of the few Jews on this list, I prefer the term Period-nazi, instead of authenticity-nazi.
                The period-(put favorite insult here), is usually only semi-informed about what the hell they are talking about, and once read a book or two, maybe a couple monographs that are on the subject at hand, and will not even listen to counter arguments put forth by recognized experts in the field. This is the type of person I encounter the most.

                I love folks who want stuff restored with authentic years old materials, using tools and techniques to do so. OK I can replace this with same species and close grain using my dremel, and palm sander, using an invisible modern adhesive, or I can hand carve the stupid thing from a piece of wood that came from another broken piece, and guess how hard it is to find the same gain pattern then for 28 times the cost. WHAT 28 times the cost? Yeah it will take me weeks to buy another broken antique to match yours, and then hand carve something from it.
                But we paid only 75% of what you want for an unqie repair. Well for much less I have some oak over here that is very close, and can have it done for you by the end of the week. It isn't the same. I always kept a couple small showpieces about in pairs. Like feet, and asked which was which. No one ever got more then 50-50. It usually made the point, but sometimes you got paid. I don't mind doing the work, but it slows everything else down.


                Evil is, as Evil does








                Hotmail® has ever-growing storage! Don’t worry about storage limits. Check it out.



                --
                ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::>




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              • Eric Hess
                There are, I m sure, a number of people who do not care about the political nature of the Nazi discussion, but there are likely equally many who feel that
                Message 7 of 24 , May 4, 2009
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                  There are, I'm sure, a number of people who do not care about the political nature of the 'Nazi' discussion, but there are likely equally many who feel that the conversation was initially acceptable, and then veered into an unacceptable tangent with a pair of posts. I'm one of those, and I am very disappointed that someone chose to make an attack in this thread, which came out of, as far as I can see it, nowhere. The attack against Conservative Christians was an unacceptable, IMO, breach of the spirit of this thread. That unacceptable attack was met by an equally unacceptable response on the part of the gentleman attacking Liberals.
                  While I understand the relevance, tenuous though it may be, of the Nazi discussion, what either of those attacks had to do with woodworking escapes me entirely. On this board, we have the potential of forming a community that grows as a unified body, helping each other through our combined wisdom and knowledge, and I know many of us joined this group for that reason. Too often of late, on many message boards I am a part of, I have seen that fellowship and goodwill break down and devolve into petty bickering. I hope that we can all take a minute to consider why we reenact, why we help others, and how we would be treated by our fellow men and women, and rededicate ourselves towards helping others and extending the charity that has been extended us in the past.
                  In service,
                  Eric
                • leaking pen
                  I didn t make an attack. I was making a comparison of one aspect of political philosophy, and not putting any kind of negativity to it. I find it amusing
                  Message 8 of 24 , May 4, 2009
                  • 0 Attachment
                    I didn't make an attack. I was making a comparison of one aspect of
                    political philosophy, and not putting any kind of negativity to it. I
                    find it amusing that it is automatically assumed to be an attack.

                    On Mon, May 4, 2009 at 11:49 AM, Eric Hess <ejhess@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > There are, I'm sure, a number of people who do not care about the political
                    > nature of the 'Nazi' discussion, but there are likely equally many who feel
                    > that the conversation was initially acceptable, and then veered into an
                    > unacceptable tangent with a pair of posts. I'm one of those, and I am very
                    > disappointed that someone chose to make an attack in this thread, which came
                    > out of, as far as I can see it, nowhere. The attack against Conservative
                    > Christians was an unacceptable, IMO, breach of the spirit of this thread.
                    > That unacceptable attack was met by an equally unacceptable response on the
                    > part of the gentleman attacking Liberals.
                    > While I understand the relevance, tenuous though it may be, of the Nazi
                    > discussion, what either of those attacks had to do with woodworking escapes
                    > me entirely. On this board, we have the potential of forming a community
                    > that grows as a unified body, helping each other through our combined wisdom
                    > and knowledge, and I know many of us joined this group for that reason. Too
                    > often of late, on many message boards I am a part of, I have seen that
                    > fellowship and goodwill break down and devolve into petty bickering. I hope
                    > that we can all take a minute to consider why we reenact, why we help
                    > others, and how we would be treated by our fellow men and women, and
                    > rededicate ourselves towards helping others and extending the charity that
                    > has been extended us in the past.
                    > In service,
                    > Eric
                    >
                    >
                  • Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart
                    In about 48 hours I m going to start deleting any further emails about the nazi debate. ( not that that is going to prevent them from being sent to
                    Message 9 of 24 , May 4, 2009
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                      In about 48 hours I'm going to start deleting any further emails
                      about the 'nazi' debate. ( not that that is going to prevent them
                      from being sent to everyone's inbox first.... )

                      I do not what to be a censor. I really do not have time for that.

                      I'm giving some time for everyone to have a chance to see my
                      "let's please move on" posting....

                      fair warning.

                      Continuing to beat this dead horse will result in me getting irritated
                      and forcing me to make a decision about what to do about it. I'd
                      rather not be annoyed while making that decision.... in fact I'd rather
                      not have to ever make that decision.....
                       
                      Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart

                      Aude Aliquid Dignum
                      ' Dare Something Worthy '

                    • James Barker
                      Hello Eric I attacked the intellectually fraudulent idea of comparing one side or the other of being like the Nazis of WWII Germany if you note my last
                      Message 10 of 24 , May 4, 2009
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                        Hello Eric
                         
                        I attacked the intellectually fraudulent idea of comparing one side or the other of being like the Nazis of WWII Germany if you note my last sentance was:
                         
                        "However neither our right or left sides in America are a damn thing like Nazis which is why they are their own category of political thinking."
                         
                        I also asked what an attack on Christians has to do with wood working or the term Nazi at all.
                         
                         
                        Sorry if my point was not clear.
                        James



                         
                        > To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                        > From: ejhess@...
                        > Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 18:49:07 +0000
                        > Subject: [MedievalSawdust] Re: Fw: this list is useless
                        >
                        > There are, I'm sure, a number of people who do not care about the political nature of the 'Nazi' discussion, but there are likely equally many who feel that the conversation was initially acceptable, and then veered into an unacceptable tangent with a pair of posts. I'm one of those, and I am very disappointed that someone chose to make an attack in this thread, which came out of, as far as I can see it, nowhere. The attack against Conservative Christians was an unacceptable, IMO, breach of the spirit of this thread. That unacceptable attack was met by an equally unacceptable response on the part of the gentleman attacking Liberals.
                        > While I understand the relevance, tenuous though it may be, of the Nazi discussion, what either of those attacks had to do with woodworking escapes me entirely. On this board, we have the potential of forming a community that grows as a unified body, helping each other through our combined wisdom and knowledge, and I know many of us joined this group for that reason. Too often of late, on many message boards I am a part of, I have seen that fellowship and goodwill break down and devolve into petty bickering. I hope that we can all take a minute to consider why we reenact, why we help others, and how we would be treated by our fellow men and women, and rededicate ourselves towards helping others and extending the charity that has been extended us in the past.
                        > In service,
                        > Eric
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ------------------------------------
                        >
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                        Windows Live™: Keep your life in sync. Check it out.
                      • Oakes, George
                        I have stayed out of this subject and I only enter here to post a simple comment or two. First email is a cruddy communication medium to convey emotions, and
                        Message 11 of 24 , May 4, 2009
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                          I have stayed out of this subject and I only enter here to post a simple comment or two.

                           

                          First email is a cruddy communication medium to convey emotions, and as such, no emotions should be conveyed or perceived in email because you cannot view, or hear, or interpret the senders body language, demeanor, or facial expressions. So take everything you read with a grain of salt, and remove any perceived emotions unless explicitly written.

                           

                          Secondly if you come across a subject in which you do not like, or care to read about, simply delete the email. Same thing I tell people who don’t like listening to a radio Shock Jock or some subject on TV. Just turn it off, or change the channel. AS  cognitive thinking human beings and most of us being able to make decisions for ourselves we alone have the power to chose what we want to read, watch or listen to. If you don’t like something, then TURN IT OFF if you are offended. Again unless the email is written directly to you, you have a choice to NOT read it, and even still if it WAS written to you , you still have the same choice.

                           

                          I have not read the article, and I don’t care too, it has no bearing on my life now nor how I choose to live it. What bothers me, is a group that is here for us to enjoy about wood working has turned into some political and hateful list of posts by folks who’s words would best be heard on a different forum, and not this one. Not saying they have nothing to say or that they shouldn’t say it, just that this is a forum to discuss woodworking and nothing more.

                           

                          Now back to your regularly schedule program of woodworking!

                           

                           

                        • i_odlin
                          ... I am, actually. If this person is incapable of reading through the archives even a little bit and realizing that (a) there are vastly more discussions and
                          Message 12 of 24 , May 4, 2009
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                            --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart <baronconal@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > hope we are all happy.....

                            I am, actually.

                            If this person is incapable of reading through the archives even a little bit and realizing that (a) there are vastly more discussions and presentations of perio(i)d woodworking than there are flamewars, and (b) humans occasionally get worked up about things and if he'd just stood back and waited a few days it would be over and done with, I have little to no sympathy.

                            -Iain of Malagentia
                          • quailriver
                            ... Hello, When I recently found this site, I was really excited and had high hopes for it. But there is just so much anger and hatred here. From the short
                            Message 13 of 24 , May 4, 2009
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                              > find it amusing that it is automatically assumed to be an attack.

                              Hello, When I recently found this site, I was really excited and had high hopes for it. But there is just so much anger and hatred here. From the short time that I have witnessed, it seems to me that the first problem is that some of the posters are mostly interested in Medieval Furniture as props for their weekend Medieval Fantasy Role Playing. Which is fine if that's what they enjoy doing. But it seems to outrage these people when anyone wants to approach this subject from a scholarly or craftsmanship level because having their historical inaccuracies pointed out to them spoils their fantasy fun. Perhaps there should be two groups, one for the folks that only enjoy the role playing and one for those who enjoy the details and authenticity of Medieval Woodworking.
                              The second problem I see here is the issue of common respect and civility. Once upon a time, not so long ago, it was considered rude to make a statement intentionally to offend others. These days on the internet this has become sport!
                              The third problem I see exists only among a small percentage of people but it is a really big problem. The hatred for Conservative Christians has become so deeply rooted in some segments of our population that they don't even recognize it in themselves as hatred. They consider their falacious views of Christians as "matter of fact" rather than hate fueled ideologies. For anyone to compare Conservative Christians to Nazis, as a member of this site did, and then claim/believe that that is not an attack on Christians, is being intellectually insincere, as is further evidenced by that same poster's response that they "find it amusing that it is automatically assumed to be an attack".
                              Those of you who have read my previous posts know that I have tried to make positive contributions to this site, but I too am considering leaving now. I'll watch for another day or two to see if the members of this site care enough about our common interest to pull it back together ...and I hope you do! But if not I'm moving on!
                              Regards,
                              Larry C.







                              --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, leaking pen <itsatrap@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > I didn't make an attack. I was making a comparison of one aspect of
                              > political philosophy, and not putting any kind of negativity to it. I
                              > find it amusing that it is automatically assumed to be an attack.
                              >
                              > On Mon, May 4, 2009 at 11:49 AM, Eric Hess <ejhess@...> wrote:
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > There are, I'm sure, a number of people who do not care about the political
                              > > nature of the 'Nazi' discussion, but there are likely equally many who feel
                              > > that the conversation was initially acceptable, and then veered into an
                              > > unacceptable tangent with a pair of posts. I'm one of those, and I am very
                              > > disappointed that someone chose to make an attack in this thread, which came
                              > > out of, as far as I can see it, nowhere. The attack against Conservative
                              > > Christians was an unacceptable, IMO, breach of the spirit of this thread.
                              > > That unacceptable attack was met by an equally unacceptable response on the
                              > > part of the gentleman attacking Liberals.
                              > > While I understand the relevance, tenuous though it may be, of the Nazi
                              > > discussion, what either of those attacks had to do with woodworking escapes
                              > > me entirely. On this board, we have the potential of forming a community
                              > > that grows as a unified body, helping each other through our combined wisdom
                              > > and knowledge, and I know many of us joined this group for that reason. Too
                              > > often of late, on many message boards I am a part of, I have seen that
                              > > fellowship and goodwill break down and devolve into petty bickering. I hope
                              > > that we can all take a minute to consider why we reenact, why we help
                              > > others, and how we would be treated by our fellow men and women, and
                              > > rededicate ourselves towards helping others and extending the charity that
                              > > has been extended us in the past.
                              > > In service,
                              > > Eric
                              > >
                              > >
                              >
                            • leaking pen
                              I AM a christian. I would not consider myself a fundamentalist, but I am rather conservative socially. I state here and now that when I made that statement,
                              Message 14 of 24 , May 4, 2009
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                                I AM a christian. I would not consider myself a fundamentalist, but I
                                am rather conservative socially. I state here and now that when I
                                made that statement, it was NOT an attack, it was a matter of fact
                                statement of political belief, with the intent of giving a modern
                                reference point. If anyone chooses to take it as an attack, that is
                                THEIR misconception and THEIR problem.

                                And the issue isn't with the two groups. Its the group, who is like
                                the second group, only think that that gives them the right to
                                denigrate the first group. People don't have issue with being told
                                why something is anacronistic, they have issue with being told they
                                are being lazy stupid ect for doing it that way.

                                On Mon, May 4, 2009 at 2:20 PM, quailriver <quailriver@...> wrote:
                                >
                                >
                                >> find it amusing that it is automatically assumed to be an attack.
                                >
                                > Hello, When I recently found this site, I was really excited and had high
                                > hopes for it. But there is just so much anger and hatred here. From the
                                > short time that I have witnessed, it seems to me that the first problem is
                                > that some of the posters are mostly interested in Medieval Furniture as
                                > props for their weekend Medieval Fantasy Role Playing. Which is fine if
                                > that's what they enjoy doing. But it seems to outrage these people when
                                > anyone wants to approach this subject from a scholarly or craftsmanship
                                > level because having their historical inaccuracies pointed out to them
                                > spoils their fantasy fun. Perhaps there should be two groups, one for the
                                > folks that only enjoy the role playing and one for those who enjoy the
                                > details and authenticity of Medieval Woodworking.
                                > The second problem I see here is the issue of common respect and civility.
                                > Once upon a time, not so long ago, it was considered rude to make a
                                > statement intentionally to offend others. These days on the internet this
                                > has become sport!
                                > The third problem I see exists only among a small percentage of people but
                                > it is a really big problem. The hatred for Conservative Christians has
                                > become so deeply rooted in some segments of our population that they don't
                                > even recognize it in themselves as hatred. They consider their falacious
                                > views of Christians as "matter of fact" rather than hate fueled ideologies.
                                > For anyone to compare Conservative Christians to Nazis, as a member of this
                                > site did, and then claim/believe that that is not an attack on Christians,
                                > is being intellectually insincere, as is further evidenced by that same
                                > poster's response that they "find it amusing that it is automatically
                                > assumed to be an attack".
                                > Those of you who have read my previous posts know that I have tried to make
                                > positive contributions to this site, but I too am considering leaving now.
                                > I'll watch for another day or two to see if the members of this site care
                                > enough about our common interest to pull it back together ...and I hope you
                                > do! But if not I'm moving on!
                                > Regards,
                                > Larry C.
                                >
                                > --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, leaking pen <itsatrap@...> wrote:
                                >>
                                >> I didn't make an attack. I was making a comparison of one aspect of
                                >> political philosophy, and not putting any kind of negativity to it. I
                                >> find it amusing that it is automatically assumed to be an attack.
                                >>
                                >> On Mon, May 4, 2009 at 11:49 AM, Eric Hess <ejhess@...> wrote:
                                >> >
                                >> >
                                >> > There are, I'm sure, a number of people who do not care about the
                                >> > political
                                >> > nature of the 'Nazi' discussion, but there are likely equally many who
                                >> > feel
                                >> > that the conversation was initially acceptable, and then veered into an
                                >> > unacceptable tangent with a pair of posts. I'm one of those, and I am
                                >> > very
                                >> > disappointed that someone chose to make an attack in this thread, which
                                >> > came
                                >> > out of, as far as I can see it, nowhere. The attack against Conservative
                                >> > Christians was an unacceptable, IMO, breach of the spirit of this
                                >> > thread.
                                >> > That unacceptable attack was met by an equally unacceptable response on
                                >> > the
                                >> > part of the gentleman attacking Liberals.
                                >> > While I understand the relevance, tenuous though it may be, of the Nazi
                                >> > discussion, what either of those attacks had to do with woodworking
                                >> > escapes
                                >> > me entirely. On this board, we have the potential of forming a community
                                >> > that grows as a unified body, helping each other through our combined
                                >> > wisdom
                                >> > and knowledge, and I know many of us joined this group for that reason.
                                >> > Too
                                >> > often of late, on many message boards I am a part of, I have seen that
                                >> > fellowship and goodwill break down and devolve into petty bickering. I
                                >> > hope
                                >> > that we can all take a minute to consider why we reenact, why we help
                                >> > others, and how we would be treated by our fellow men and women, and
                                >> > rededicate ourselves towards helping others and extending the charity
                                >> > that
                                >> > has been extended us in the past.
                                >> > In service,
                                >> > Eric
                                >> >
                                >> >
                                >>
                                >
                                >
                              • Jim Hart
                                This was supposed to allow anyone who had not reached my email asking for this topic to be allowed to die to post one last email before they see my request if
                                Message 15 of 24 , May 4, 2009
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                                  This was supposed to allow anyone who had not reached my email
                                  asking for this topic to be allowed to die to post one last
                                  email before they see my request if they don't read all the emails before hitting reply....


                                  ...not to give 48 hours more to snipe or complain or whatever

                                  PLEASE let it go.


                                  stand up, walk away from the keyboard, relax, breathe deeply, have a beer ( optional ) and let's move on.





                                  --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart <baronconal@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > In about 48 hours I'm going to start deleting any further emails
                                  > about the 'nazi' debate. ( not that that is going to prevent them
                                  > from being sent to everyone's inbox first.... )
                                  >
                                  > I do not what to be a censor. I really do not have time for that.
                                  >
                                  > I'm giving some time for everyone to have a chance to see my
                                  > "let's please move on" posting....
                                  >
                                  > fair warning.
                                  >
                                  > Continuing to beat this dead horse will result in me getting irritated
                                  > and forcing me to make a decision about what to do about it. I'd
                                  > rather not be annoyed while making that decision.... in fact I'd rather
                                  > not have to ever make that decision.....
                                  >
                                  > Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart
                                  >
                                  > Aude Aliquid Dignum
                                  > ' Dare Something Worthy '
                                  >
                                • D S ASPLUND
                                  As my first comment to this list, which I love for the plans and instruction, I have to say to the author of this post.... Ahmen and pass the beer brother...
                                  Message 16 of 24 , May 4, 2009
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                                    As my first comment to this list, which I love for the plans and instruction, I have to say to the author of this post....
                                     
                                    Ahmen and pass the beer brother...  I am sick to death of this whole unamusing diatribe
                                     
                                    Lord Fearghus
                                    'the treeslayer'
                                     

                                    To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                                    From: baronconal@...
                                    Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 21:40:44 +0000
                                    Subject: [MedievalSawdust] Re: follow up



                                    This was supposed to allow anyone who had not reached my email
                                    asking for this topic to be allowed to die to post one last
                                    email before they see my request if they don't read all the emails before hitting reply....

                                    ...not to give 48 hours more to snipe or complain or whatever

                                    PLEASE let it go.

                                    stand up, walk away from the keyboard, relax, breathe deeply, have a beer ( optional ) and let's move on.

                                    --- In medievalsawdust@ yahoogroups. com, Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart <baronconal@ ...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > In about 48 hours I'm going to start deleting any further emails
                                    > about the 'nazi' debate. ( not that that is going to prevent them
                                    > from being sent to everyone's inbox first.... )
                                    >
                                    > I do not what to be a censor. I really do not have time for that.
                                    >
                                    > I'm giving some time for everyone to have a chance to see my
                                    > "let's please move on" posting....
                                    >
                                    > fair warning.
                                    >
                                    > Continuing to beat this dead horse will result in me getting irritated
                                    > and forcing me to make a decision about what to do about it. I'd
                                    > rather not be annoyed while making that decision.... in fact I'd rather
                                    > not have to ever make that decision.... .
                                    >
                                    > Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart
                                    >
                                    > Aude Aliquid Dignum
                                    > ' Dare Something Worthy '
                                    >


                                  • donat0
                                    I totally agree with Eric on this. every event I attend, I get kicked in the teeth by a very interesting question to myself. Is this period. Is it period to
                                    Message 17 of 24 , May 4, 2009
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                                      I totally agree with Eric on this. every event I attend, I get kicked in the teeth by a very interesting question to myself.

                                      Is this period. Is it period to provide period documentation. Is it period to say its NOT period.

                                      Although we are discussing woodworking, this thread is about SCA culture, and how it evolves. Frankly, the SCA is not going in a medieval direction. Although we may want to keep this topic on a woodworking topic, we need to make sure what we are doing is medieval, and not what we want to force to assure our own agenda's.

                                      Here are 2 questions for each of you to answer.

                                      1. When you are documenting what you make, is it period, or are you just proving it is period. There is a fine line, but its about who you want to impress.

                                      2. Why are you documenting it. To prove its authentic, or just to get an award.

                                      Both are good questions. I ask these questions because everytime I attend an event, I get the idea that the entire purpose is not about experiencing what period people lived in period, but proving some people know more than other people do.

                                      Is this right? I think not.

                                      --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, "Eric Hess" <ejhess@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > There are, I'm sure, a number of people who do not care about the political nature of the 'Nazi' discussion, but there are likely equally many who feel that the conversation was initially acceptable, and then veered into an unacceptable tangent with a pair of posts. I'm one of those, and I am very disappointed that someone chose to make an attack in this thread, which came out of, as far as I can see it, nowhere. The attack against Conservative Christians was an unacceptable, IMO, breach of the spirit of this thread. That unacceptable attack was met by an equally unacceptable response on the part of the gentleman attacking Liberals.
                                      > While I understand the relevance, tenuous though it may be, of the Nazi discussion, what either of those attacks had to do with woodworking escapes me entirely. On this board, we have the potential of forming a community that grows as a unified body, helping each other through our combined wisdom and knowledge, and I know many of us joined this group for that reason. Too often of late, on many message boards I am a part of, I have seen that fellowship and goodwill break down and devolve into petty bickering. I hope that we can all take a minute to consider why we reenact, why we help others, and how we would be treated by our fellow men and women, and rededicate ourselves towards helping others and extending the charity that has been extended us in the past.
                                      > In service,
                                      > Eric
                                      >
                                    • donat0
                                      OK, I must first apologize, I was activated to do midwest flood control, so I missed most of this thread. I am late, but I am known to be an Iconoclast on the
                                      Message 18 of 24 , May 4, 2009
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                                        OK, I must first apologize, I was activated to do midwest flood control, so I missed most of this thread. I am late, but I am known to be an Iconoclast on the topic. I wish I had spoken up earlier.

                                        To those who don't want to discuss philosophy, or SCA dogmatism, I apologise again and please delete this immediately. The idea of religion has come up, and if you are not tolerant of new ideas, please delete.

                                        But you ARE on the list, and it IS topical to the rest of us, even if you want to shut your eyes to what is happening in the real world of the SCA; oxymoron it may be. If we don't discuss it, we won't solicit change, and make the SCA a better place, which is my priority. I desire a better SCA future.

                                        Yes, I am one of those who accuses people of being period DOCUMENTATION Nazi's. (yes, Cap N is intended.) They use documentation as a cudgel to belittle people to build themselves up. To prove themselves smarter, and stop anybody from expressing anything they don't desire to hear. I encounter this on a regular basis in the SCA.

                                        When the SCA first started in Berkely, they had a vision. It wasn't about Crown Tournaments, politics, and A&S competitions. It was about living the philosophy and lifestlyle of what King Arthur had embraced around the round table.

                                        Isn't it interesting how this has changed.

                                        Now we have events focused around presenting contemporary artifacts documented as possibly being period beccause we have proof they did it in such a way. We collect awards in much the same way the boyscouts collect ribbons. Prove it existed or was done in a certain way, and you get a Willow... Silver Oak, or organize it right and you can become a Pelican!! Boy, I am in the Army and I cannot get such awards!

                                        Are these period approaches to a developing society? I think NOT.

                                        What drives this, you might ask? Its the idea that "If you cannot prove it, it must be false". Thus, we obsess upon proving things existed instead of addressing context. There is little we can tangebly prove that existed and there is much that did exist that cannot be proven. If you ask, I can give you volumes of examples.

                                        There are also volumes of examples of cultural things that are NOT DOCUMENTED THAT DID HAPPEN. Are they less valid? No. If we ignore their existance because they were not documented; will society have evolved in the same way? I guess so, but we will be clueless as to why. Yet, there will be people.... SCA people who will claim to be experts because.... they know what WAS documented.... and those who explore other facts will be left behind or belittled, ignorant because they clain other than whats in the textbooks.

                                        What the final result is, the opportunity for certain people to demean others for not being good enough; for not proving things other people are too smart to acknowledge. "Its Not Period" is an anthem for the SCA. This disgusts me.

                                        Personally, I veiw being "Period" as much akin to being spiritual. Its a journey, and I have nothing to prove to anybody. As I develop my personae, I start from the bottom, and improve it as I go, and there is nobody else to impress but me. I know certain things for a fact disputed by the SCA because it was not documented. I am the only person to impress, and to tell the truth, my volume of facts can outmass many of those who are considered the smartest of the SCA.

                                        I know there are certain things that are not considered valid because of documentation.

                                        Polyphony DID exist, it was the heartbeat of music from day one in organic society; You cannot have shamanism (which is much older than Christianity) or feild music without it. Every society used the remnants of its fibre's until there were none left to be used. We cared for our children unless we could not afford to keep them alive. these are undocumented facts that existed, and if you deny them, then you have a distorted view of history.

                                        I do have a very topical example, if anybody is interested... just to bring it back to topic.
                                      • quailriver
                                        Wow it has finally sunk in! This list Really is useless, with a capital U ! What a shame. Have a nice life folks. Regards, Larry
                                        Message 19 of 24 , May 4, 2009
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                                          Wow it has finally sunk in! This list Really is useless, with a capital "U"! What a shame. Have a nice life folks.
                                          Regards,
                                          Larry



                                          --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, "donat0" <donat0@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > OK, I must first apologize, I was activated to do midwest flood control, so I missed most of this thread. I am late, but I am known to be an Iconoclast on the topic. I wish I had spoken up earlier.
                                          >
                                          > To those who don't want to discuss philosophy, or SCA dogmatism, I apologise again and please delete this immediately. The idea of religion has come up, and if you are not tolerant of new ideas, please delete.
                                          >
                                          > But you ARE on the list, and it IS topical to the rest of us, even if you want to shut your eyes to what is happening in the real world of the SCA; oxymoron it may be. If we don't discuss it, we won't solicit change, and make the SCA a better place, which is my priority. I desire a better SCA future.
                                          >
                                          > Yes, I am one of those who accuses people of being period DOCUMENTATION Nazi's. (yes, Cap N is intended.) They use documentation as a cudgel to belittle people to build themselves up. To prove themselves smarter, and stop anybody from expressing anything they don't desire to hear. I encounter this on a regular basis in the SCA.
                                          >
                                          > When the SCA first started in Berkely, they had a vision. It wasn't about Crown Tournaments, politics, and A&S competitions. It was about living the philosophy and lifestlyle of what King Arthur had embraced around the round table.
                                          >
                                          > Isn't it interesting how this has changed.
                                          >
                                          > Now we have events focused around presenting contemporary artifacts documented as possibly being period beccause we have proof they did it in such a way. We collect awards in much the same way the boyscouts collect ribbons. Prove it existed or was done in a certain way, and you get a Willow... Silver Oak, or organize it right and you can become a Pelican!! Boy, I am in the Army and I cannot get such awards!
                                          >
                                          > Are these period approaches to a developing society? I think NOT.
                                          >
                                          > What drives this, you might ask? Its the idea that "If you cannot prove it, it must be false". Thus, we obsess upon proving things existed instead of addressing context. There is little we can tangebly prove that existed and there is much that did exist that cannot be proven. If you ask, I can give you volumes of examples.
                                          >
                                          > There are also volumes of examples of cultural things that are NOT DOCUMENTED THAT DID HAPPEN. Are they less valid? No. If we ignore their existance because they were not documented; will society have evolved in the same way? I guess so, but we will be clueless as to why. Yet, there will be people.... SCA people who will claim to be experts because.... they know what WAS documented.... and those who explore other facts will be left behind or belittled, ignorant because they clain other than whats in the textbooks.
                                          >
                                          > What the final result is, the opportunity for certain people to demean others for not being good enough; for not proving things other people are too smart to acknowledge. "Its Not Period" is an anthem for the SCA. This disgusts me.
                                          >
                                          > Personally, I veiw being "Period" as much akin to being spiritual. Its a journey, and I have nothing to prove to anybody. As I develop my personae, I start from the bottom, and improve it as I go, and there is nobody else to impress but me. I know certain things for a fact disputed by the SCA because it was not documented. I am the only person to impress, and to tell the truth, my volume of facts can outmass many of those who are considered the smartest of the SCA.
                                          >
                                          > I know there are certain things that are not considered valid because of documentation.
                                          >
                                          > Polyphony DID exist, it was the heartbeat of music from day one in organic society; You cannot have shamanism (which is much older than Christianity) or feild music without it. Every society used the remnants of its fibre's until there were none left to be used. We cared for our children unless we could not afford to keep them alive. these are undocumented facts that existed, and if you deny them, then you have a distorted view of history.
                                          >
                                          > I do have a very topical example, if anybody is interested... just to bring it back to topic.
                                          >
                                        • Bobby Bourgoin (Robert du Bourg)
                                          Thanks…. I’ve been deleting the Nazi mails for a time now… Seigneur Robert du Bourg Sénéchal du Havre des Glaces Homme d’Arme de Lord Marek O’Brien
                                          Message 20 of 24 , May 4, 2009
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                                            Thanks…. I’ve been deleting the Nazi mails for a time now…

                                             

                                            Seigneur Robert du Bourg

                                            Sénéchal du Havre des Glaces

                                            Homme d’Arme de Lord Marek O’Brien

                                             

                                            bobby.bourgoin@...

                                            Bobby Bourgoin

                                            _________________________________

                                            I just hang on, and suffer well

                                            Sometimes it’s hard,,, so hard to tell.

                                             

                                            I fear neither, death nor pain.

                                            I fear a cage, to stay behind bars, until use and old age accept them.

                                             

                                             


                                            From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com [mailto: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart
                                            Sent: 4 mai 2009 15:00
                                            To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                                            Subject: [MedievalSawdust] follow up

                                             




                                            In about 48 hours I'm going to start deleting any further emails
                                            about the 'nazi' debate. ( not that that is going to prevent them
                                            from being sent to everyone's inbox first.... )

                                            I do not what to be a censor. I really do not have time for that.

                                            I'm giving some time for everyone to have a chance to see my
                                            "let's please move on" posting....

                                            fair warning.

                                            Continuing to beat this dead horse will result in me getting irritated
                                            and forcing me to make a decision about what to do about it. I'd
                                            rather not be annoyed while making that decision.... in fact I'd rather
                                            not have to ever make that decision.... .

                                             

                                            Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart

                                            Aude Aliquid Dignum
                                            ' Dare Something Worthy '

                                             

                                          • logan
                                            not documented but it did happen? really? no actual proof of something but it did happen nonetheless? wow....... thats called faith. which, by definition,
                                            Message 21 of 24 , May 4, 2009
                                            • 0 Attachment

                                              not documented but it did happen?  really?  no actual proof of something but it did happen nonetheless?  wow.......

                                               

                                              thats called faith.  which, by definition, is a blind belief in the unknown.  thats silly.

                                               

                                              the rest of your commentary im ok with but that part was a little much and if this list is supposed to be about building stuff that was, umm, medieval, then lets just get on with talking about that.    again.

                                               

                                              regards

                                              logan

                                               

                                              "I never did give them hell. I just told the truth, and they thought it was hell."
                                              Harry S Truman

                                              "If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared"
                                              Niccolo Machiavelli

                                              www.ebonwoulfe.com
                                              www.fighterpractice.com

                                               

                                              From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com [mailto:medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of donat0
                                              Sent: Monday, May 04, 2009 9:04 PM
                                              To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                                              Subject: [MedievalSawdust] Re: Fw: this list is useless

                                               




                                              OK, I must first apologize, I was activated to do midwest flood control, so I missed most of this thread. I am late, but I am known to be an Iconoclast on the topic. I wish I had spoken up earlier.

                                              To those who don't want to discuss philosophy, or SCA dogmatism, I apologise again and please delete this immediately. The idea of religion has come up, and if you are not tolerant of new ideas, please delete.

                                              But you ARE on the list, and it IS topical to the rest of us, even if you want to shut your eyes to what is happening in the real world of the SCA; oxymoron it may be. If we don't discuss it, we won't solicit change, and make the SCA a better place, which is my priority. I desire a better SCA future.

                                              Yes, I am one of those who accuses people of being period DOCUMENTATION Nazi's. (yes, Cap N is intended.) They use documentation as a cudgel to belittle people to build themselves up. To prove themselves smarter, and stop anybody from expressing anything they don't desire to hear. I encounter this on a regular basis in the SCA.

                                              When the SCA first started in Berkely, they had a vision. It wasn't about Crown Tournaments, politics, and A&S competitions. It was about living the philosophy and lifestlyle of what King Arthur had embraced around the round table.

                                              Isn't it interesting how this has changed.

                                              Now we have events focused around presenting contemporary artifacts documented as possibly being period beccause we have proof they did it in such a way. We collect awards in much the same way the boyscouts collect ribbons. Prove it existed or was done in a certain way, and you get a Willow... Silver Oak, or organize it right and you can become a Pelican!! Boy, I am in the Army and I cannot get such awards!

                                              Are these period approaches to a developing society? I think NOT.

                                              What drives this, you might ask? Its the idea that "If you cannot prove it, it must be false". Thus, we obsess upon proving things existed instead of addressing context. There is little we can tangebly prove that existed and there is much that did exist that cannot be proven. If you ask, I can give you volumes of examples.

                                              There are also volumes of examples of cultural things that are NOT DOCUMENTED THAT DID HAPPEN. Are they less valid? No. If we ignore their existance because they were not documented; will society have evolved in the same way? I guess so, but we will be clueless as to why. Yet, there will be people.... SCA people who will claim to be experts because.... they know what WAS documented.... and those who explore other facts will be left behind or belittled, ignorant because they clain other than whats in the textbooks.

                                              What the final result is, the opportunity for certain people to demean others for not being good enough; for not proving things other people are too smart to acknowledge. "Its Not Period" is an anthem for the SCA. This disgusts me.

                                              Personally, I veiw being "Period" as much akin to being spiritual. Its a journey, and I have nothing to prove to anybody. As I develop my personae, I start from the bottom, and improve it as I go, and there is nobody else to impress but me. I know certain things for a fact disputed by the SCA because it was not documented. I am the only person to impress, and to tell the truth, my volume of facts can outmass many of those who are considered the smartest of the SCA.

                                              I know there are certain things that are not considered valid because of documentation.

                                              Polyphony DID exist, it was the heartbeat of music from day one in organic society; You cannot have shamanism (which is much older than Christianity) or feild music without it. Every society used the remnants of its fibre's until there were none left to be used. We cared for our children unless we could not afford to keep them alive. these are undocumented facts that existed, and if you deny them, then you have a distorted view of history.

                                              I do have a very topical example, if anybody is interested... just to bring it back to topic.

                                            • scott gates
                                              This summers project will be a 30(was 20) foot by 14 (was 12) wood and canvas frame common area tent. Well I think we are going to cheat and use vinyl (shudder
                                              Message 22 of 24 , May 5, 2009
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                This summers project will be a 30(was 20) foot by 14 (was 12) wood and canvas frame common area tent. Well I think we are going to cheat and use vinyl (shudder but it is a fraction of the cost, at least to start). I do have a bunch of 3x4s rough sawn red oak and maple for the posts. Going to go with cheap pine for the rest of the frame. The unit will more or less look like 3 of my frame tents put together. Hooray for modular. The tent while done in modern lumber comes from the Bayonne tapestry. Should be a fun project. I think We will be firing up the planer in about two weeks. The additions to the bar are still in design stages. I lost my hook up with one of my free hardwood suppliers for these fun projects. Damn economy laying people off.

                                                As for the documentation argument, my examples are such. Tartan cloth did not exist in early England until they found the piece of it dating to 4th century or earlier last year.
                                                All the Scot's history lost in ships that sunk on the way back does not exist either.
                                                Nothing existing until it is written down is certainly one exacting way to look at things, but it seems a bit fluid for my personal taste, as things change every year depending on who is interpting what from where, and when. It really becomes difficult to make things from pre-literate cultures using that as the definition. Our problem as wood workers is , and always will be that wood decays. It breaks, burns, rots, and is often thrown away. We do not know if someone made a rocking chair as we know them 2000 years ago. Not likely, but still not that hard to make using primitive tools. The hardest part has always been going from tree to board. I do not mind those wanting to be as authentic as possible, by all means. It is kind of neat working out things with the hand tools, and copying someone else's work, but those who poo-poo that fact I put steel bolts in the big tent frames for safety, and quick set up, and tear down, or did not make my own pigments for the finish on another piece to my face, can bite me. I guess my biggest bitch is anyone can copy, but to design from scratch is the difference between hobbyist, and craftsman. The SCA tends to punish those using techniques, and lines found during a time period, but not in a certain piece. OK children everyone draw this vase for the grade. Sorry Pablo, you fail. Tell your mom mrs. Picasso that she should talk to me about you.


                                                Evil is, as Evil does





                                                To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                                                From: logan@...
                                                Date: Tue, 5 May 2009 00:31:03 -0400
                                                Subject: RE: [MedievalSawdust] Re: Fw: this list is useless




                                                not documented but it did happen?  really?  no actual proof of something but it did happen nonetheless?  wow.......

                                                 

                                                thats called faith.  which, by definition, is a blind belief in the unknown.  thats silly.

                                                 

                                                the rest of your commentary im ok with but that part was a little much and if this list is supposed to be about building stuff that was, umm, medieval, then lets just get on with talking about that.    again.

                                                 

                                                regards

                                                logan

                                                 

                                                "I never did give them hell. I just told the truth, and they thought it was hell."
                                                Harry S Truman

                                                "If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared"
                                                Niccolo Machiavelli

                                                www.ebonwoulfe. com
                                                www.fighterpractice .com

                                                 

                                                From: medievalsawdust@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:medievalsaw dust@yahoogroups .com] On Behalf Of donat0
                                                Sent: Monday, May 04, 2009 9:04 PM
                                                To: medievalsawdust@ yahoogroups. com
                                                Subject: [MedievalSawdust] Re: Fw: this list is useless

                                                 




                                                OK, I must first apologize, I was activated to do midwest flood control, so I missed most of this thread. I am late, but I am known to be an Iconoclast on the topic. I wish I had spoken up earlier.

                                                To those who don't want to discuss philosophy, or SCA dogmatism, I apologise again and please delete this immediately. The idea of religion has come up, and if you are not tolerant of new ideas, please delete.

                                                But you ARE on the list, and it IS topical to the rest of us, even if you want to shut your eyes to what is happening in the real world of the SCA; oxymoron it may be. If we don't discuss it, we won't solicit change, and make the SCA a better place, which is my priority. I desire a better SCA future.

                                                Yes, I am one of those who accuses people of being period DOCUMENTATION Nazi's. (yes, Cap N is intended.) They use documentation as a cudgel to belittle people to build themselves up. To prove themselves smarter, and stop anybody from expressing anything they don't desire to hear. I encounter this on a regular basis in the SCA.

                                                When the SCA first started in Berkely, they had a vision. It wasn't about Crown Tournaments, politics, and A&S competitions. It was about living the philosophy and lifestlyle of what King Arthur had embraced around the round table.

                                                Isn't it interesting how this has changed.

                                                Now we have events focused around presenting contemporary artifacts documented as possibly being period beccause we have proof they did it in such a way. We collect awards in much the same way the boyscouts collect ribbons. Prove it existed or was done in a certain way, and you get a Willow... Silver Oak, or organize it right and you can become a Pelican!! Boy, I am in the Army and I cannot get such awards!

                                                Are these period approaches to a developing society? I think NOT.

                                                What drives this, you might ask? Its the idea that "If you cannot prove it, it must be false". Thus, we obsess upon proving things existed instead of addressing context. There is little we can tangebly prove that existed and there is much that did exist that cannot be proven. If you ask, I can give you volumes of examples.

                                                There are also volumes of examples of cultural things that are NOT DOCUMENTED THAT DID HAPPEN. Are they less valid? No. If we ignore their existance because they were not documented; will society have evolved in the same way? I guess so, but we will be clueless as to why. Yet, there will be people.... SCA people who will claim to be experts because.... they know what WAS documented.. .. and those who explore other facts will be left behind or belittled, ignorant because they clain other than whats in the textbooks.

                                                What the final result is, the opportunity for certain people to demean others for not being good enough; for not proving things other people are too smart to acknowledge. "Its Not Period" is an anthem for the SCA. This disgusts me.

                                                Personally, I veiw being "Period" as much akin to being spiritual. Its a journey, and I have nothing to prove to anybody. As I develop my personae, I start from the bottom, and improve it as I go, and there is nobody else to impress but me. I know certain things for a fact disputed by the SCA because it was not documented. I am the only person to impress, and to tell the truth, my volume of facts can outmass many of those who are considered the smartest of the SCA.

                                                I know there are certain things that are not considered valid because of documentation.

                                                Polyphony DID exist, it was the heartbeat of music from day one in organic society; You cannot have shamanism (which is much older than Christianity) or feild music without it. Every society used the remnants of its fibre's until there were none left to be used. We cared for our children unless we could not afford to keep them alive. these are undocumented facts that existed, and if you deny them, then you have a distorted view of history.

                                                I do have a very topical example, if anybody is interested.. . just to bring it back to topic.




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