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Re: [MedievalSawdust] Re: A Wood finish

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  • paul
    The sources for Pro wood cutting boards seem to be A note from NH: One of our readers reminded me of the interesting research of Dean Cliver from the
    Message 1 of 15 , Aug 8, 2008
      The sources for Pro wood cutting boards seem to be

      A note from NH: One of our readers reminded me of the interesting
      research of Dean Cliver from the University of California (Davis), a
      published expert in food safety and foodborne disease. He published a
      series of articles on the bacterial dangers inherent in cutting boards
      and methods of disinfecting them. He was surprised to find that wood,
      reputed to be more bacteria prone and less easily cleaned than plastic
      cutting boards, actually proved to be more hygienic! Here is a summary
      of his findings...

      http://www.naturalhandyman.com/iip/infxtra/infcuttingboard.html

      and Patrick J. Bird, Ph.D. Keeping Fit Column 599 1998

      http://www.chefknivestogo.com/woodvsplascu.html

      I found Several state agriculture extension websites that favor plastic
      over wood but none of the ones I checked had any information on studies
      behind there conclusions. Such as

      http://ag.arizona.edu/pubs/health/foodsafety/az1076.html

      When I checked the USDA website the only thing I found on the topic did
      not seem to favor one surface over the other
      http://www.fsis.usda.gov/Fact_Sheets/Cutting_Boards_and_Food_Safety/index.asp

      One site I found that seemed to cover both sides of the argument
      evenhanded and did include references was

      http://www.reluctantgourmet.com/cutting_board.htm

      Paul


      donat0 wrote:
      >
      >
      > > Wood is a natural antibiotic, which is why wooden cutting boards are
      > > safer than plastic.
      >
      > I don't mean to pick nits here, but I believe this is dangerous
      > misinformation. Could you please show us a source showing this is
      > true? Children are supposed to be exposed to contaminants to build
      > strong immune systems, but to claim sanitary values for kitchen
      > equipment is not good.
      >
    • Trevor Payne
      Try using a food grade varnish.  That way when baby chews on it there is not toxic chemicals. Aiden Those who beat their swords into plowshares plow for
      Message 2 of 15 , Aug 8, 2008
        Try using a food grade varnish.  That way when baby chews on it there is not toxic chemicals.

        Aiden

        "Those who beat their swords into plowshares plow for those who didn't"
        --Benjamin Franklin--

        --- On Thu, 8/7/08, Rodrigo Belmonte <rodrigo_belmonte@...> wrote:
        From: Rodrigo Belmonte <rodrigo_belmonte@...>
        Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] Re: A Wood finish
        To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Thursday, August 7, 2008, 10:05 PM

        If you are making what I think you are making, I have seen them several times in doctors offices and the like. The kids love them, and spend hours playing with them! My only cautions would be to consider the metal used very carefully, as well as the size of the wooden baubles.. perhaps you could encorporate a learning tool with it, make it fun, and educational!

         

        In service to the Dream,

         

        Rodrigo Belmonte

        Oakheart Company of Archers

        Shire of Oakheart

        Kingdom of Calontir



        ----- Original Message ----
        From: i_griffen <i_griffen@yahoo. com>
        To: medievalsawdust@ yahoogroups. com
        Sent: Thursday, August 7, 2008 7:59:52 PM
        Subject: [MedievalSawdust] Re: A Wood finish

        Since my grand daughter is only 3 weeks old I have time to look for
        the right material for the toy.

        What I want to make is formed wire device that has several shapes
        that are secured to a couple of pieces of wood with different shapes
        that rides on the wires.

        As for the wood I am thinking about wooden beads, brcaues of the
        various shapes.

        what do you all think?

        Iain Griffen

        --- In medievalsawdust@ yahoogroups. com, "leaking pen" <itsatrap@.. .>
        wrote:
        >
        > what wood are you using? most toys for babys made out of wood are
        > safer if NOT finished.
        >
        > On Thu, Aug 7, 2008 at 12:37 PM, i_griffen <i_griffen@. ..> wrote:
        > > Can anyone recommend a wood finish that is baby safe? I want to
        make a
        > > toy for my grand daughter and want to make it paint/finish safe.
        > >
        > > thanks
        > >
        > > Iain Griffen
        > >
        > >
        >



      • donat0
        Thank you, Paul for your quick response. This is becoming a good conversation. To preface my response, I would like to say I prefer to use a wooden board.
        Message 3 of 15 , Aug 8, 2008
          Thank you, Paul for your quick response. This is becoming a good
          conversation. To preface my response, I would like to say I prefer
          to use a wooden board. Its easier on the cutting blades, and I clean
          up soon after cutting, especially meats.

          Your first source, was very interesting...

          http://www.naturalhandyman.com/iip/infxtra/infcuttingboard.html

          But I would like to point out...

          "Although the bacteria that have disappeared from the wood surfaces
          are found alive inside the wood for some time after application, they
          evidently do not multiply, and they gradually die. They can be
          detected only by splitting or gouging the wood or by forcing water
          completely through from one surface to the other. If a sharp knife is
          used to cut into the work surfaces after used plastic or wood has
          been contaminated with bacteria and cleaned manually, more bacteria
          are recovered from a used plastic surface than from a used wood
          surface." (Quote from article)

          Really, the article stated that wood is OK, and actaully better than
          plastic if both are scarred from cutting. This doesn't mean wood is
          antibacterial, or even safe. Just better than plastic if both are
          scarred. I think what is not said in the article about lingering
          contamination beacons back to what I said before about anaerobic
          conditions. If you saturate your wood; replace air in the pores with
          water, the bacteria can stay alive a lot longer, where plastic is
          hydrophillic (repels water), and you wouldn't have that problem.

          This source also doesn't comment about wood being antibacterial..

          http://www.chefknivestogo.com/woodvsplascu.html

          But it DOES comment about sanitation practices,

          "A mild bleach solution will decontaminate plastic and other
          surfaces. But even at full strength, bleach does not sanitize wood
          cutting boards. The disinfectant quality of bleach is neutralized by
          the organic composition of wood. A good procedure for disinfecting
          both wood and plastic cutting boards, as well as other surfaces and
          utensils, is to spray them first with a mist of vinegar, then with a
          mist of hydrogen peroxide." (quote from article)

          Note, Bleach is totally ineffective against contamination on wood, I
          didn't know that and will adjust my own cleaning practices. Thanks.

          You need to read your source on this one again.

          http://ag.arizona.edu/pubs/health/foodsafety/az1076.html

          "However, more recent studies by the Food and Drug Administration
          found that microorganisms became trapped in wood surfaces and were
          difficult to dislodge by rinsing. Once trapped, bacteria survive in a
          dormant stage for long periods of time. The next time the cutting
          board is used, these bacteria could contaminate other foods,
          potentially causing food-borne illness. On the other hand, the study
          found that microorganisms were easily washed off plastic surfaces."
          (Quote from FDA article)

          The last source really didn't say anything one way or the other, so I
          won't comment on it.

          Thanks again Paul, for the response. Its always a good thing to get
          views from different perspectives to explore the "bigger picture" of
          life.

          Donato, Proprietor of Rifugio Del Bacchus.
        • leaking pen
          http://faculty.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/faculty/docliver/Research/cuttingboard.htm Heres a study on salmonella that shows the bacteria was pulled into the wood,
          Message 4 of 15 , Aug 8, 2008
            http://faculty.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/faculty/docliver/Research/cuttingboard.htm

            Heres a study on salmonella that shows the bacteria was pulled into
            the wood, dehydrated and killed, did not multiply, and was not
            available to contaminate on the surface.

            On Fri, Aug 8, 2008 at 6:33 AM, donat0 <donat0@...> wrote:
            >
            >> Wood is a natural antibiotic, which is why wooden cutting boards are
            >> safer than plastic.
            >
            > I don't mean to pick nits here, but I believe this is dangerous
            > misinformation. Could you please show us a source showing this is
            > true? Children are supposed to be exposed to contaminants to build
            > strong immune systems, but to claim sanitary values for kitchen
            > equipment is not good.
            >
            > One of the most common transfer points of Salmonella is through
            > improperly cleaned wooden cutting boards- the bacteria can live for
            > weeks if the board is saturated. Admittedly, most dangerous
            > bacteria's are aneorobic (must have no oxygen to live), and wood by
            > nature creates an aerobic environment, I think to assume its safe
            > because its wood beacons us back to "Assume means....."
            >
            > "Pieces of raw and painted wood were observed in the firm's class 100
            > and class 1,000 rooms. Wood is porous, difficult to disinfect, can
            > allow for the growth of bacteria and mold and contamination of the
            > environment."
            >
            > http://tinyurl.com/5g3fvw
            >
            > I am sorry, I don't mean to contradict anybody, but we must always
            > maintain a higher sanitation priority when preparing food for other
            > people.
            >
            > Donato Del Giardinier, Proprietor Rifugio Del Bacchus.
            >
            >
          • AlbionWood
            The bottom line on cutting boards is, both wood and plastic are safe if you keep them clean and keep them dry - and neither are safe if you do not. The
            Message 5 of 15 , Aug 8, 2008
              The bottom line on cutting boards is, both wood and plastic are safe if
              you keep them clean and keep them dry - and neither are safe if you do
              not. The differences between the two materials are interesting but
              negligible in terms of personal use. (Commercial food preparation use
              patterns are very different, the materials have less chance to dry out
              as they are in use more continuously, so bacteria populations can build
              up faster.)

              Wash well, wipe with vinegar, keep dry between uses, and you'll be safe
              with either material.

              Now back to the original question - as others noted, no finish at all is
              probably best for this application, but in practice all modern finishes
              are safe when fully cured. Bob Flexner has been trying for years to
              combat the persistent belief that wood finishes are toxic. They are
              not. But if you don't believe him, use shellac - it is in fact
              food-safe, used to coat pills, among other things.

              Cheers,
              Tim
            • Rebekah d'Avignon
              donat0 wrote: I don t mean to pick nits here, but I believe this is dangerous misinformation. Could you please show us a source
              Message 6 of 15 , Aug 8, 2008
                donat0 <donat0@...> wrote:
                I don't mean to pick nits here, but I believe this is dangerous misinformation. Could you please show us a source showing this is true? Children are supposed to be exposed to contaminants to build strong immune systems, but to claim sanitary values for kitchen equipment is not good.
                Um......wrong.
                One of the most common transfer points of Salmonella is through improperly cleaned wooden cutting boards- the bacteria can live for weeks if the board is saturated.
                Sorry.....read the item below.

                "Pieces of raw and painted wood were observed in the firm's class 100 and class 1,000 rooms. Wood is porous, difficult to disinfect, can allow for the growth of bacteria and mold and contamination of the environment. "

                Donato Del Giardinier, Proprietor Rifugio Del Bacchus.
                .

                 
                 


                RdA
                Tools alone do not a craftsman make.

              • bayard_turner
                Bob Flexner, author of Understanding Wood Finishing , wrote an article for the Spring 2008 American Woodturner. He says that all the Salad Bowl Finishes ,
                Message 7 of 15 , Aug 8, 2008
                  Bob Flexner, author of "Understanding Wood Finishing", wrote an
                  article for the Spring 2008 American Woodturner. He says that all the
                  "Salad Bowl Finishes", etc., are simply alkyd varnishes thinned with
                  mineral spirits - "wiping varnishes." They contain the same driers as
                  any other varnish and are no more or less safe. All the driers used
                  in varnish and drying oils like BLO are approved by the FDA (Bob says
                  to google "21CFR175.300" and click on the top link). His contention
                  is that all finishes - varnish, drying oils, lacquer, etc. are
                  "food-safe" after they have fully cured.

                  Given that information, what finish would handle rough use over time
                  best? A surface finish, like poly, lays on top of the wood, and
                  provides good protection from water, drool, etc. An oil like BLO
                  soaks in, but offers little protection at the surface. I'd go with
                  what works best for you on other projects.

                  Bayard

                  --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, "lambdakennels1@..."
                  <lambdakennels1@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > You can get a can of "toy maker finish" from a wood store such as
                  Rockler or Woordcraft. I have a can. It says it is child safe after
                  three or four coats when cured 48 hours after the last coat. I have
                  not used it -- stopped making things that needed that sort of thing,
                  so can't tell you how it does.
                  >
                  >
                  > Stephanie Smith, Ph.D
                  > http://lambdafarm.mysite.com/
                  > Owned by a Poodle and an Australian Cattle Dog
                  > K5AMK
                  >
                  >
                  > -- "i_griffen" <i_griffen@...> wrote:
                  > Can anyone recommend a wood finish that is baby safe? I want to make a
                  > toy for my grand daughter and want to make it paint/finish safe.
                  >
                  >
                  > thanks
                  >
                  > Iain Griffen
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------
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