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Re: [MedievalSawdust] Re: A Wood finish

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  • Rodrigo Belmonte
    If you are making what I think you are making, I have seen them several times in doctors offices and the like. The kids love them, and spend hours playing with
    Message 1 of 15 , Aug 7, 2008
      If you are making what I think you are making, I have seen them several times in doctors offices and the like. The kids love them, and spend hours playing with them! My only cautions would be to consider the metal used very carefully, as well as the size of the wooden baubles.. perhaps you could encorporate a learning tool with it, make it fun, and educational!

       

      In service to the Dream,

       

      Rodrigo Belmonte

      Oakheart Company of Archers

      Shire of Oakheart

      Kingdom of Calontir



      ----- Original Message ----
      From: i_griffen <i_griffen@...>
      To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Thursday, August 7, 2008 7:59:52 PM
      Subject: [MedievalSawdust] Re: A Wood finish

      Since my grand daughter is only 3 weeks old I have time to look for
      the right material for the toy.

      What I want to make is formed wire device that has several shapes
      that are secured to a couple of pieces of wood with different shapes
      that rides on the wires.

      As for the wood I am thinking about wooden beads, brcaues of the
      various shapes.

      what do you all think?

      Iain Griffen

      --- In medievalsawdust@ yahoogroups. com, "leaking pen" <itsatrap@.. .>
      wrote:

      >
      > what wood are you using? most toys for babys made out of wood are
      > safer if NOT finished.
      >
      > On Thu, Aug 7, 2008 at 12:37 PM, i_griffen <i_griffen@. ..> wrote:
      > > Can anyone recommend a wood finish that is baby safe? I want to
      make a
      > > toy for my
      grand daughter and want to make it paint/finish safe.
      > >
      > > thanks
      > >
      > > Iain Griffen
      > >
      > >
      >


    • leaking pen
      enameled wire, paint the beads with food color, let dry, then soak for an hour in water, let dry and give them a final sand. that should prevent any bleeding
      Message 2 of 15 , Aug 7, 2008
        enameled wire, paint the beads with food color, let dry, then soak for
        an hour in water, let dry and give them a final sand. that should
        prevent any bleeding of the food color. make sure all the beads are
        larger than the chokepoint (you can find tools for that at the store
        in the baby aisle) and unfinished will be safer in terms of germs.
        Wood is a natural antibiotic, which is why wooden cutting boards are
        safer than plastic. as for wood type, id go with white pine, soft on
        the teeth, take color well, very little chance of allergy.

        On Thu, Aug 7, 2008 at 7:59 PM, i_griffen <i_griffen@...> wrote:
        > Since my grand daughter is only 3 weeks old I have time to look for
        > the right material for the toy.
        >
        > What I want to make is formed wire device that has several shapes
        > that are secured to a couple of pieces of wood with different shapes
        > that rides on the wires.
        >
        > As for the wood I am thinking about wooden beads, brcaues of the
        > various shapes.
        >
        > what do you all think?
        >
        > Iain Griffen
        >
        > --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, "leaking pen" <itsatrap@...>
        > wrote:
        >
        >>
        >> what wood are you using? most toys for babys made out of wood are
        >> safer if NOT finished.
        >>
        >> On Thu, Aug 7, 2008 at 12:37 PM, i_griffen <i_griffen@...> wrote:
        >> > Can anyone recommend a wood finish that is baby safe? I want to
        > make a
        >> > toy for my grand daughter and want to make it paint/finish safe.
        >> >
        >> > thanks
        >> >
        >> > Iain Griffen
        >> >
        >> >
        >>
        >
        >
      • donat0
        ... I don t mean to pick nits here, but I believe this is dangerous misinformation. Could you please show us a source showing this is true? Children are
        Message 3 of 15 , Aug 8, 2008
          > Wood is a natural antibiotic, which is why wooden cutting boards are
          > safer than plastic.

          I don't mean to pick nits here, but I believe this is dangerous
          misinformation. Could you please show us a source showing this is
          true? Children are supposed to be exposed to contaminants to build
          strong immune systems, but to claim sanitary values for kitchen
          equipment is not good.

          One of the most common transfer points of Salmonella is through
          improperly cleaned wooden cutting boards- the bacteria can live for
          weeks if the board is saturated. Admittedly, most dangerous
          bacteria's are aneorobic (must have no oxygen to live), and wood by
          nature creates an aerobic environment, I think to assume its safe
          because its wood beacons us back to "Assume means....."

          "Pieces of raw and painted wood were observed in the firm's class 100
          and class 1,000 rooms. Wood is porous, difficult to disinfect, can
          allow for the growth of bacteria and mold and contamination of the
          environment."

          http://tinyurl.com/5g3fvw

          I am sorry, I don't mean to contradict anybody, but we must always
          maintain a higher sanitation priority when preparing food for other
          people.

          Donato Del Giardinier, Proprietor Rifugio Del Bacchus.
        • paul
          The sources for Pro wood cutting boards seem to be A note from NH: One of our readers reminded me of the interesting research of Dean Cliver from the
          Message 4 of 15 , Aug 8, 2008
            The sources for Pro wood cutting boards seem to be

            A note from NH: One of our readers reminded me of the interesting
            research of Dean Cliver from the University of California (Davis), a
            published expert in food safety and foodborne disease. He published a
            series of articles on the bacterial dangers inherent in cutting boards
            and methods of disinfecting them. He was surprised to find that wood,
            reputed to be more bacteria prone and less easily cleaned than plastic
            cutting boards, actually proved to be more hygienic! Here is a summary
            of his findings...

            http://www.naturalhandyman.com/iip/infxtra/infcuttingboard.html

            and Patrick J. Bird, Ph.D. Keeping Fit Column 599 1998

            http://www.chefknivestogo.com/woodvsplascu.html

            I found Several state agriculture extension websites that favor plastic
            over wood but none of the ones I checked had any information on studies
            behind there conclusions. Such as

            http://ag.arizona.edu/pubs/health/foodsafety/az1076.html

            When I checked the USDA website the only thing I found on the topic did
            not seem to favor one surface over the other
            http://www.fsis.usda.gov/Fact_Sheets/Cutting_Boards_and_Food_Safety/index.asp

            One site I found that seemed to cover both sides of the argument
            evenhanded and did include references was

            http://www.reluctantgourmet.com/cutting_board.htm

            Paul


            donat0 wrote:
            >
            >
            > > Wood is a natural antibiotic, which is why wooden cutting boards are
            > > safer than plastic.
            >
            > I don't mean to pick nits here, but I believe this is dangerous
            > misinformation. Could you please show us a source showing this is
            > true? Children are supposed to be exposed to contaminants to build
            > strong immune systems, but to claim sanitary values for kitchen
            > equipment is not good.
            >
          • Trevor Payne
            Try using a food grade varnish.  That way when baby chews on it there is not toxic chemicals. Aiden Those who beat their swords into plowshares plow for
            Message 5 of 15 , Aug 8, 2008
              Try using a food grade varnish.  That way when baby chews on it there is not toxic chemicals.

              Aiden

              "Those who beat their swords into plowshares plow for those who didn't"
              --Benjamin Franklin--

              --- On Thu, 8/7/08, Rodrigo Belmonte <rodrigo_belmonte@...> wrote:
              From: Rodrigo Belmonte <rodrigo_belmonte@...>
              Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] Re: A Wood finish
              To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Thursday, August 7, 2008, 10:05 PM

              If you are making what I think you are making, I have seen them several times in doctors offices and the like. The kids love them, and spend hours playing with them! My only cautions would be to consider the metal used very carefully, as well as the size of the wooden baubles.. perhaps you could encorporate a learning tool with it, make it fun, and educational!

               

              In service to the Dream,

               

              Rodrigo Belmonte

              Oakheart Company of Archers

              Shire of Oakheart

              Kingdom of Calontir



              ----- Original Message ----
              From: i_griffen <i_griffen@yahoo. com>
              To: medievalsawdust@ yahoogroups. com
              Sent: Thursday, August 7, 2008 7:59:52 PM
              Subject: [MedievalSawdust] Re: A Wood finish

              Since my grand daughter is only 3 weeks old I have time to look for
              the right material for the toy.

              What I want to make is formed wire device that has several shapes
              that are secured to a couple of pieces of wood with different shapes
              that rides on the wires.

              As for the wood I am thinking about wooden beads, brcaues of the
              various shapes.

              what do you all think?

              Iain Griffen

              --- In medievalsawdust@ yahoogroups. com, "leaking pen" <itsatrap@.. .>
              wrote:
              >
              > what wood are you using? most toys for babys made out of wood are
              > safer if NOT finished.
              >
              > On Thu, Aug 7, 2008 at 12:37 PM, i_griffen <i_griffen@. ..> wrote:
              > > Can anyone recommend a wood finish that is baby safe? I want to
              make a
              > > toy for my grand daughter and want to make it paint/finish safe.
              > >
              > > thanks
              > >
              > > Iain Griffen
              > >
              > >
              >



            • donat0
              Thank you, Paul for your quick response. This is becoming a good conversation. To preface my response, I would like to say I prefer to use a wooden board.
              Message 6 of 15 , Aug 8, 2008
                Thank you, Paul for your quick response. This is becoming a good
                conversation. To preface my response, I would like to say I prefer
                to use a wooden board. Its easier on the cutting blades, and I clean
                up soon after cutting, especially meats.

                Your first source, was very interesting...

                http://www.naturalhandyman.com/iip/infxtra/infcuttingboard.html

                But I would like to point out...

                "Although the bacteria that have disappeared from the wood surfaces
                are found alive inside the wood for some time after application, they
                evidently do not multiply, and they gradually die. They can be
                detected only by splitting or gouging the wood or by forcing water
                completely through from one surface to the other. If a sharp knife is
                used to cut into the work surfaces after used plastic or wood has
                been contaminated with bacteria and cleaned manually, more bacteria
                are recovered from a used plastic surface than from a used wood
                surface." (Quote from article)

                Really, the article stated that wood is OK, and actaully better than
                plastic if both are scarred from cutting. This doesn't mean wood is
                antibacterial, or even safe. Just better than plastic if both are
                scarred. I think what is not said in the article about lingering
                contamination beacons back to what I said before about anaerobic
                conditions. If you saturate your wood; replace air in the pores with
                water, the bacteria can stay alive a lot longer, where plastic is
                hydrophillic (repels water), and you wouldn't have that problem.

                This source also doesn't comment about wood being antibacterial..

                http://www.chefknivestogo.com/woodvsplascu.html

                But it DOES comment about sanitation practices,

                "A mild bleach solution will decontaminate plastic and other
                surfaces. But even at full strength, bleach does not sanitize wood
                cutting boards. The disinfectant quality of bleach is neutralized by
                the organic composition of wood. A good procedure for disinfecting
                both wood and plastic cutting boards, as well as other surfaces and
                utensils, is to spray them first with a mist of vinegar, then with a
                mist of hydrogen peroxide." (quote from article)

                Note, Bleach is totally ineffective against contamination on wood, I
                didn't know that and will adjust my own cleaning practices. Thanks.

                You need to read your source on this one again.

                http://ag.arizona.edu/pubs/health/foodsafety/az1076.html

                "However, more recent studies by the Food and Drug Administration
                found that microorganisms became trapped in wood surfaces and were
                difficult to dislodge by rinsing. Once trapped, bacteria survive in a
                dormant stage for long periods of time. The next time the cutting
                board is used, these bacteria could contaminate other foods,
                potentially causing food-borne illness. On the other hand, the study
                found that microorganisms were easily washed off plastic surfaces."
                (Quote from FDA article)

                The last source really didn't say anything one way or the other, so I
                won't comment on it.

                Thanks again Paul, for the response. Its always a good thing to get
                views from different perspectives to explore the "bigger picture" of
                life.

                Donato, Proprietor of Rifugio Del Bacchus.
              • leaking pen
                http://faculty.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/faculty/docliver/Research/cuttingboard.htm Heres a study on salmonella that shows the bacteria was pulled into the wood,
                Message 7 of 15 , Aug 8, 2008
                  http://faculty.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/faculty/docliver/Research/cuttingboard.htm

                  Heres a study on salmonella that shows the bacteria was pulled into
                  the wood, dehydrated and killed, did not multiply, and was not
                  available to contaminate on the surface.

                  On Fri, Aug 8, 2008 at 6:33 AM, donat0 <donat0@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >> Wood is a natural antibiotic, which is why wooden cutting boards are
                  >> safer than plastic.
                  >
                  > I don't mean to pick nits here, but I believe this is dangerous
                  > misinformation. Could you please show us a source showing this is
                  > true? Children are supposed to be exposed to contaminants to build
                  > strong immune systems, but to claim sanitary values for kitchen
                  > equipment is not good.
                  >
                  > One of the most common transfer points of Salmonella is through
                  > improperly cleaned wooden cutting boards- the bacteria can live for
                  > weeks if the board is saturated. Admittedly, most dangerous
                  > bacteria's are aneorobic (must have no oxygen to live), and wood by
                  > nature creates an aerobic environment, I think to assume its safe
                  > because its wood beacons us back to "Assume means....."
                  >
                  > "Pieces of raw and painted wood were observed in the firm's class 100
                  > and class 1,000 rooms. Wood is porous, difficult to disinfect, can
                  > allow for the growth of bacteria and mold and contamination of the
                  > environment."
                  >
                  > http://tinyurl.com/5g3fvw
                  >
                  > I am sorry, I don't mean to contradict anybody, but we must always
                  > maintain a higher sanitation priority when preparing food for other
                  > people.
                  >
                  > Donato Del Giardinier, Proprietor Rifugio Del Bacchus.
                  >
                  >
                • AlbionWood
                  The bottom line on cutting boards is, both wood and plastic are safe if you keep them clean and keep them dry - and neither are safe if you do not. The
                  Message 8 of 15 , Aug 8, 2008
                    The bottom line on cutting boards is, both wood and plastic are safe if
                    you keep them clean and keep them dry - and neither are safe if you do
                    not. The differences between the two materials are interesting but
                    negligible in terms of personal use. (Commercial food preparation use
                    patterns are very different, the materials have less chance to dry out
                    as they are in use more continuously, so bacteria populations can build
                    up faster.)

                    Wash well, wipe with vinegar, keep dry between uses, and you'll be safe
                    with either material.

                    Now back to the original question - as others noted, no finish at all is
                    probably best for this application, but in practice all modern finishes
                    are safe when fully cured. Bob Flexner has been trying for years to
                    combat the persistent belief that wood finishes are toxic. They are
                    not. But if you don't believe him, use shellac - it is in fact
                    food-safe, used to coat pills, among other things.

                    Cheers,
                    Tim
                  • Rebekah d'Avignon
                    donat0 wrote: I don t mean to pick nits here, but I believe this is dangerous misinformation. Could you please show us a source
                    Message 9 of 15 , Aug 8, 2008
                      donat0 <donat0@...> wrote:
                      I don't mean to pick nits here, but I believe this is dangerous misinformation. Could you please show us a source showing this is true? Children are supposed to be exposed to contaminants to build strong immune systems, but to claim sanitary values for kitchen equipment is not good.
                      Um......wrong.
                      One of the most common transfer points of Salmonella is through improperly cleaned wooden cutting boards- the bacteria can live for weeks if the board is saturated.
                      Sorry.....read the item below.

                      "Pieces of raw and painted wood were observed in the firm's class 100 and class 1,000 rooms. Wood is porous, difficult to disinfect, can allow for the growth of bacteria and mold and contamination of the environment. "

                      Donato Del Giardinier, Proprietor Rifugio Del Bacchus.
                      .

                       
                       


                      RdA
                      Tools alone do not a craftsman make.

                    • bayard_turner
                      Bob Flexner, author of Understanding Wood Finishing , wrote an article for the Spring 2008 American Woodturner. He says that all the Salad Bowl Finishes ,
                      Message 10 of 15 , Aug 8, 2008
                        Bob Flexner, author of "Understanding Wood Finishing", wrote an
                        article for the Spring 2008 American Woodturner. He says that all the
                        "Salad Bowl Finishes", etc., are simply alkyd varnishes thinned with
                        mineral spirits - "wiping varnishes." They contain the same driers as
                        any other varnish and are no more or less safe. All the driers used
                        in varnish and drying oils like BLO are approved by the FDA (Bob says
                        to google "21CFR175.300" and click on the top link). His contention
                        is that all finishes - varnish, drying oils, lacquer, etc. are
                        "food-safe" after they have fully cured.

                        Given that information, what finish would handle rough use over time
                        best? A surface finish, like poly, lays on top of the wood, and
                        provides good protection from water, drool, etc. An oil like BLO
                        soaks in, but offers little protection at the surface. I'd go with
                        what works best for you on other projects.

                        Bayard

                        --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, "lambdakennels1@..."
                        <lambdakennels1@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > You can get a can of "toy maker finish" from a wood store such as
                        Rockler or Woordcraft. I have a can. It says it is child safe after
                        three or four coats when cured 48 hours after the last coat. I have
                        not used it -- stopped making things that needed that sort of thing,
                        so can't tell you how it does.
                        >
                        >
                        > Stephanie Smith, Ph.D
                        > http://lambdafarm.mysite.com/
                        > Owned by a Poodle and an Australian Cattle Dog
                        > K5AMK
                        >
                        >
                        > -- "i_griffen" <i_griffen@...> wrote:
                        > Can anyone recommend a wood finish that is baby safe? I want to make a
                        > toy for my grand daughter and want to make it paint/finish safe.
                        >
                        >
                        > thanks
                        >
                        > Iain Griffen
                        >
                        >
                        > ------------------------------------
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                        >
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