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Resin finishes

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  • Jeff Johnson
    I m looking to do some experimentation with pine resin/rosin finishes - further than using off-the-shelf linseed/resin mixes I usually use. What resin
    Message 1 of 17 , Jul 24 3:19 AM
      I'm looking to do some experimentation with pine resin/rosin finishes
      - further than using off-the-shelf linseed/resin mixes I usually use.
      What resin suppliers and home-made mix recipes have people has luck with?

      Yes, I'll be sure to be careful, and not burn the house down. ;)

      Jeff/Geoff
    • Karl Christoffers
      Hello the list,   In the current issue of *WoodenBoat* (#203, July/August 2008) Wade Smith of Taylor and Snediker Woodworking and Mystic Seaport in
      Message 2 of 17 , Jul 24 11:32 AM
        Hello the list,
         
        In the current issue of *WoodenBoat* (#203, July/August 2008) Wade Smith of Taylor and Snediker Woodworking and Mystic Seaport in Connecticut, has an article "Traditional Recipes" (for finish coating and "waterproofing") using beeswax, rosin, raw linseed oil, Tung oil, Turpentine, pine tar, and the useful, if not particularly period paraffin, kerosene, mineral spirits and japan driers. Fascinating stuff.
         
        Mr. Smith has you look to your local hardware store for most of the ingredients. He gives sources (U.S. only, unfortunately) for the harder to find stuff:
        BEESWAX - find an apiary near you whose bees have not disappeared
        REAL POWDERED ROSIN - "still used in the printmaking industry; a good source is Graphic Chemical and Ink Co. www.graphicchemical.com
        800)465-7382"
        ORGANIC LINSEED OILS - "and paints and varnishes made from them are available from Viking Sales, www.solventfreepaint.com or (585)924-8070"
        PINE TAR - from American Rope and Tar, www.tarsmell.com (877)965-1800
         
        rosin notes from the article: "Beware, though, because cheaper substitutes [for real pine rosin] are still marketed to athletes as "powdered rosin" or "rosin powder" even though they contain no rosin ..."
         
        I have only recently read the article, and I have not tried any of the recipes yet. So I have not set myself on fire yet. One last quote (fire related) from the article:

        "FIRE - This is a topical condition: it's either on fire or not. None of the coatings we're discussing have an appreciable effect on flammability once they're completely dry, but I'll mention up front and right away that the spontaneous combustion of oil- or solvent-soaked rags left in a pile really will make the choice of finish seem trivial."

        I have checked the web addresses above, and they work. The folks at Viking Sales also sell pine tar, and have an interesting note on the pine tar page that the stave churches of Scandanavia have been, and are continuing to be, preserved with pine tar. Cool. And it smells good.

        -Malcolm


        --- On Thu, 7/24/08, Jeff Johnson <jljonsn9663@...> wrote:

        From: Jeff Johnson <jljonsn9663@...>
        Subject: [MedievalSawdust] Resin finishes
        To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Thursday, July 24, 2008, 3:19 AM






        I'm looking to do some experimentation with pine resin/rosin finishes
        - further than using off-the-shelf linseed/resin mixes I usually use.
        What resin suppliers and home-made mix recipes have people has luck with?

        Yes, I'll be sure to be careful, and not burn the house down. ;)

        Jeff/Geoff
      • Bill McNutt
        Now that s a good question for the group: How do the shops represented here handle oily rags? At my shop they are hung over the edge of the trashcan until dry,
        Message 3 of 17 , Jul 24 11:43 AM
          Now that's a good question for the group:
           
          How do the shops represented here handle oily rags?
           
          At my shop they are hung over the edge of the trashcan until dry, and then discarded.
           
          Other techniques to avoid spontaneous combustions?
           
          Will
        • Michael Tighe
          (lurk mode turned off) I distinctly remember an article on this in one of the wood-working magazines. They say spread them out to dry in an open area (i.e.
          Message 4 of 17 , Jul 24 1:03 PM
            (lurk mode turned off)

            I distinctly remember an article on this in one of the wood-working magazines. They say spread them out to dry in an open area (i.e. OUTSIDE) and let them dry.

            They even suggested that this method could be used to get rid of small amounts of various resin/thinner/poly - pour it onto newspaper spread in a box outside and let the volatiles evaporate - then you can discard in a closed container.

            -- Michael Tighe (sometime woodworker)

            <LURK MODE BACK ON> ;-)



            ---- Original message ----
            >Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 14:43:05 -0400
            >From: "Bill McNutt" <mcnutt@...>
            >Subject: Oily Rags, was RE: [MedievalSawdust] Resin finishes
            >To: <medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com>
            >
            > Now that's a good question for the group:
            >
            > How do the shops represented here handle oily rags?
            >
            > At my shop they are hung over the edge of the
            > trashcan until dry, and then discarded.
            >
            > Other techniques to avoid spontaneous combustions?
            >
            > Will
            >
            >
            -- Michael Tighe (tighe@...)
          • dennis_elw
            I will be giving away my age here but when I was a kid cabinet shops (my Dad was a cabinetmaker) would have a steel container about 18 inches in diameter and
            Message 5 of 17 , Jul 24 2:26 PM
              I will be giving away my age here but when I was a kid cabinet shops
              (my Dad was a cabinetmaker) would have a steel container about 18
              inches in diameter and two feet high with a foot operated heavy steel
              lid. Oily rags were placed in there. It being steel and with limited
              oxygen, spontaneous combustion didn't seem to be a big problem.
              Mechanics also used these containers a lot. Of course, a lot of
              these "rags" were actually shop-cloths that were cleaned and reused
              (labor was cheaper then). I haven't seen one of these containers in
              years so I ascribe to the method of spreading the rags (in a well
              ventilated area) and letting them dry and then disposing of them.


              --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, "Bill McNutt" <mcnutt@...>
              wrote:
              >
              > Now that's a good question for the group:
              >
              > How do the shops represented here handle oily rags?
              >
              > At my shop they are hung over the edge of the trashcan until dry, and
              then
              > discarded.
              >
              > Other techniques to avoid spontaneous combustions?
              >
              > Will
              >
            • Jeff Johnson
              Excellent! I ll seek that issue out. Most of what I ve found online is sources for violin makers varnish ingrdients, at beaucoup bucks an ounce. Thank you!
              Message 6 of 17 , Jul 24 5:57 PM
                Excellent! I'll seek that issue out. Most of what I've found online is
                sources for violin makers varnish ingrdients, at beaucoup bucks an ounce.

                Thank you!

                Geoff/Jeff

                --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, Karl Christoffers
                <interestingclutter@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hello the list,
                >
                > In the current issue of *WoodenBoat* (#203, July/August 2008) Wade
                Smith of Taylor and Snediker Woodworking and Mystic Seaport in
                Connecticut, has an article "Traditional Recipes" (for finish coating
                and "waterproofing") using beeswax, rosin, raw linseed oil, Tung oil,
                Turpentine, pine tar, and the useful, if not particularly period
                paraffin, kerosene, mineral spirits and japan driers. Fascinating stuff.
                >
              • Ragn Solvi
                I always keep a small fire going (in an approved container) when ever I am doing finish work, rag goes directly into fire when done with....  Ragnsteinn fra
                Message 7 of 17 , Jul 24 6:00 PM
                  I always keep a small fire going (in an approved container) when ever I am doing finish work, rag goes directly into fire when done with....

                   
                  Ragnsteinn fra Andresmyri
                  Shire of Hrafnsfjordr
                  Gules two battle-axes in saltire Or
                  and a chief wavy checky azure and Or


                • Wolf
                  Ohdear, positively *ancient*!! Was your Dad s red, or just galvinized? When viewed from the top, was it round or triangular? For you young uns out there,
                  Message 8 of 17 , Jul 24 6:23 PM
                    Ohdear, positively *ancient*!!

                    Was your Dad's red, or just galvinized? When viewed from the top, was
                    it round or triangular? For you "young uns"out there, the hinge was
                    along one edge... Keep your eyes open, as they do turn up occasionally!

                    Another option might be a good, old-fashioned galvinized trash can with
                    lid. "Once upon a time", you could get small "apartment-sized" cans
                    (roughly half the size of the regular ones).

                    Wolf

                    (before you ask, we had them in every shop class I ever took!)

                    On Thu, 2008-07-24 at 21:26 +0000, dennis_elw wrote:
                    > I will be giving away my age here but when I was a kid cabinet shops
                    > (my Dad was a cabinetmaker) would have a steel container about 18
                    > inches in diameter and two feet high with a foot operated heavy steel
                    > lid. Oily rags were placed in there. It being steel and with limited
                    > oxygen, spontaneous combustion didn't seem to be a big problem.
                    > Mechanics also used these containers a lot. Of course, a lot of
                    > these "rags" were actually shop-cloths that were cleaned and reused
                    > (labor was cheaper then). I haven't seen one of these containers in
                    > years so I ascribe to the method of spreading the rags (in a well
                    > ventilated area) and letting them dry and then disposing of them.
                    >
                  • leaking pen
                    I dry and toss in the washing machine with salt and vinegar to break up the oils. re use.
                    Message 9 of 17 , Jul 24 7:04 PM
                      I dry and toss in the washing machine with salt and vinegar to break
                      up the oils. re use.

                      On Thu, Jul 24, 2008 at 2:26 PM, dennis_elw <delwell@...> wrote:
                      > I will be giving away my age here but when I was a kid cabinet shops
                      > (my Dad was a cabinetmaker) would have a steel container about 18
                      > inches in diameter and two feet high with a foot operated heavy steel
                      > lid. Oily rags were placed in there. It being steel and with limited
                      > oxygen, spontaneous combustion didn't seem to be a big problem.
                      > Mechanics also used these containers a lot. Of course, a lot of
                      > these "rags" were actually shop-cloths that were cleaned and reused
                      > (labor was cheaper then). I haven't seen one of these containers in
                      > years so I ascribe to the method of spreading the rags (in a well
                      > ventilated area) and letting them dry and then disposing of them.
                      >
                      > --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, "Bill McNutt" <mcnutt@...>
                      > wrote:
                      >
                      >>
                      >> Now that's a good question for the group:
                      >>
                      >> How do the shops represented here handle oily rags?
                      >>
                      >> At my shop they are hung over the edge of the trashcan until dry, and
                      > then
                      >> discarded.
                      >>
                      >> Other techniques to avoid spontaneous combustions?
                      >>
                      >> Will
                      >>
                      >
                      >
                    • dennis_elw
                      Wolf, I always remember them as being round and red. I don t ever remember seeing a triangular one? (I had forgotten about the ones in every shop class.) Now
                      Message 10 of 17 , Jul 24 8:02 PM
                        Wolf,

                        I always remember them as being round and red. I don't ever remember
                        seeing a triangular one? (I had forgotten about the ones in every
                        shop class.) Now that you mention it, I haven't seen one of those
                        half-sized galvinized trash cans in a while either. They are all
                        plastic now (and I wouldn't recommend them).

                        Dennis

                        --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, Wolf <wolfeyes@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Ohdear, positively *ancient*!!
                        >
                        > Was your Dad's red, or just galvinized? When viewed from the top,
                        was
                        > it round or triangular? For you "young uns"out there, the hinge was
                        > along one edge... Keep your eyes open, as they do turn up
                        occasionally!
                        >
                        > Another option might be a good, old-fashioned galvinized trash can
                        with
                        > lid. "Once upon a time", you could get small "apartment-sized" cans
                        > (roughly half the size of the regular ones).
                        >
                        > Wolf
                        >
                        > (before you ask, we had them in every shop class I ever took!)
                        >
                        > On Thu, 2008-07-24 at 21:26 +0000, dennis_elw wrote:
                        > > I will be giving away my age here but when I was a kid cabinet
                        shops
                        > > (my Dad was a cabinetmaker) would have a steel container about 18
                        > > inches in diameter and two feet high with a foot operated heavy
                        steel
                        > > lid. Oily rags were placed in there. It being steel and with
                        limited
                        > > oxygen, spontaneous combustion didn't seem to be a big problem.
                        > > Mechanics also used these containers a lot. Of course, a lot of
                        > > these "rags" were actually shop-cloths that were cleaned and
                        reused
                        > > (labor was cheaper then). I haven't seen one of these containers
                        in
                        > > years so I ascribe to the method of spreading the rags (in a well
                        > > ventilated area) and letting them dry and then disposing of them.
                        > >
                        >
                      • Jim Looper
                        Dude, thanks for making me feel old... I had one in my shop, but ended up giving to my dad when I brought home a different type of container for my rags (he
                        Message 11 of 17 , Jul 25 12:33 AM
                          Dude, thanks for making me feel old...

                          I had one in my shop, but ended up giving to my dad when I brought home a different type of container for my rags (he would wax poetic about the one his father had in his shop and I got tired of hearing it...).

                          Lucien


                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: dennis_elw <delwell@...>
                          To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 17:26:54 -0400 (EDT)
                          Subject: Re: Oily Rags, was RE: [MedievalSawdust] Resin finishes

                          I will be giving away my age here but when I was a kid cabinet shops
                          (my Dad was a cabinetmaker) would have a steel container about 18
                          inches in diameter and two feet high with a foot operated heavy steel
                          lid. Oily rags were placed in there. It being steel and with limited
                          oxygen, spontaneous combustion didn't seem to be a big problem.
                          Mechanics also used these containers a lot. Of course, a lot of
                          these "rags" were actually shop-cloths that were cleaned and reused
                          (labor was cheaper then). I haven't seen one of these containers in
                          years so I ascribe to the method of spreading the rags (in a well
                          ventilated area) and letting them dry and then disposing of them.


                          --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, "Bill McNutt" <mcnutt@...>
                          wrote:
                          >
                          > Now that's a good question for the group:
                          >
                          > How do the shops represented here handle oily rags?
                          >
                          > At my shop they are hung over the edge of the trashcan until dry, and
                          then
                          > discarded.
                          >
                          > Other techniques to avoid spontaneous combustions?
                          >
                          > Will
                        • Andrew Lowry
                          ... Don t feel old. Those containers are still being made, sold and used in industrial facilities around the world. My former employer, FM Global, still
                          Message 12 of 17 , Jul 25 5:53 AM
                            --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, "dennis_elw" <delwell@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > I will be giving away my age here but when I was a kid cabinet shops
                            > (my Dad was a cabinetmaker) would have a steel container about 18
                            > inches in diameter and two feet high with a foot operated heavy steel
                            > lid.

                            Don't feel old. Those containers are still being made, sold and used in industrial facilities
                            around the world. My former employer, FM Global, still assigns approvals to the designs. I
                            work in industrial risk control and I see them all the time. Definitely required in industrial
                            facilities where putting the oily cloth out to dry, like I do at home, is not only impractical but
                            it creates a new combustible source.
                          • conradh@efn.org
                            ... It s useful to remember that oily rags as fire hazards only seems to apply to vegetable oils. Olive and linseed are notorious for spontaneous
                            Message 13 of 17 , Jul 26 2:14 AM
                              >
                              > --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, "Bill McNutt" <mcnutt@...>
                              > wrote:
                              >
                              >>
                              >> Now that's a good question for the group:
                              >>
                              >>
                              >> How do the shops represented here handle oily rags?
                              >>
                              >>
                              >> At my shop they are hung over the edge of the trashcan until dry, and
                              >>
                              > then
                              >> discarded.
                              >>
                              >> Other techniques to avoid spontaneous combustions?

                              It's useful to remember that "oily" rags as fire hazards only seems to
                              apply to vegetable oils. Olive and linseed are notorious for spontaneous
                              combustion. Some of the precautions worked out by painters, wood
                              finishers and cooks got applied to petroleum-based oils by analogy, but
                              they just don't seem as vulnerable. It appears to have to do with the way
                              the vegetable oils oxidise on their own, long before anything like a fire
                              starts, and of course heat is given off by this oxidation, quite a lot of
                              it. If this heat is allowed to build up under the right conditions, such
                              as a pile of rags with linseed oil left by painters or varnishers, the
                              porous cloth lets just enough oxygen diffuse in from the outside of the
                              pile to keep the reaction going, but if the pile is large enough the
                              insulation of the cloth layers allows heat to build up to the ignition
                              point.
                              Period woodworkers of course are as vulnerable as they ever were. I have
                              a woodstove and a forge, so in my shop any linseed-oiled rag is simply
                              tossed into one or the other of them. It becomes part of the kindling for
                              the next fire, and that's the end of it. No single rag is going to
                              self-ignite anyway; it's letting them pile up that causes problems.

                              Traditional solutions used to include discarding oily rags only into
                              tightly covered steel containers, which for greater safety could be filled
                              with water. This works, but why would anyone today want to keep the rags
                              around that long? Cloth is so cheap compared to the old days that most
                              households I know end up with far more rags than they can use. If you
                              don't your neighbor or nearby relative does. Under these conditions, I
                              find that the best way to prevent spontaneous combustion is deliberate
                              combustion--just burn the damn rag under controlled conditions when you're
                              done with it. Keeping them around is where people get into trouble.

                              Ulfhedinn
                            • Eric
                              Actualy a single rag can self-combust. A friend applied some BLO on a project and tossed the crumpled rag onto a folding table in the middle of his yard. That
                              Message 14 of 17 , Jul 26 10:17 AM
                                Actualy a single rag can self-combust. A friend applied some BLO on
                                a project and tossed the crumpled rag onto a folding table in the
                                middle of his yard.

                                That evening, he noticed something under the table. When
                                investigated, there was a pile of ashes and charred cloth on the
                                ground. Only then did he notice the 6 inch hole burned through the
                                particle board surface of the table. Sitting in the sun may have
                                jump started the temperature process that resulted in the fire.

                                Just a warning, I know that I take oily rags more seriously now...

                                Eirikr

                                --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, conradh@... wrote:
                                >
                                > ... No single rag is going to
                                > self-ignite anyway; it's letting them pile up that causes
                                problems...
                                >
                                > Ulfhedinn
                                >
                              • conradh@efn.org
                                ... No shit! Thanks for the warning. The sun may have made the difference, but then again maybe it didn t. And there are other sources of extra heat, like
                                Message 15 of 17 , Jul 26 11:44 AM
                                  On Sat, July 26, 2008 10:17 am, Eric wrote:
                                  > Actualy a single rag can self-combust. A friend applied some BLO on
                                  > a project and tossed the crumpled rag onto a folding table in the middle of
                                  > his yard.
                                  >
                                  > That evening, he noticed something under the table. When
                                  > investigated, there was a pile of ashes and charred cloth on the ground.
                                  > Only then did he notice the 6 inch hole burned through the
                                  > particle board surface of the table. Sitting in the sun may have jump
                                  > started the temperature process that resulted in the fire.
                                  >
                                  > Just a warning, I know that I take oily rags more seriously now...

                                  No shit! Thanks for the warning. The sun may have made the difference,
                                  but then again maybe it didn't. And there are other sources of extra heat,
                                  like shop heaters, floodlights, the hot water pipe you might hang the rag
                                  on...makes me feel good about my policy of using junk rags for finishing
                                  oils and then burning them right away.

                                  Ulfhedinn
                                • Eric Hess
                                  We had a customer at Woodcraft come in after putting BLO on his new workbench. He left the rag lying on a table nearby and went inside for lunch, got
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Jul 27 5:55 AM
                                    We had a customer at Woodcraft come in after putting BLO on his new workbench.  He left the rag lying on a table nearby and went inside for lunch, got distracted and came back several hours later just in time to watch the rag burst into flame.  He had an exciting few minutes getting that out, but fortunately nothing was seriously damaged.  Even one rag can be dangerous.  Always be careful.
                                  • logan
                                    the best policy for dealing with a rag soaked in linseed oil is to lay it out flat on concrete or place it in a shop can (metal can with a lid). i use linseed
                                    Message 17 of 17 , Jul 27 8:52 AM

                                      the best policy for dealing with a rag soaked in linseed oil is to lay it out flat on concrete or place it in a shop can (metal can with a lid).  i use linseed on 90% of my projects and have never had a rag catch fire unintentionally.  i simply lay them out flat on the cement outside my shop.  about an hour later they are dry.  its when they get folded or balled up that they generate enough heat to combust.

                                       

                                      regards

                                      logan

                                       


                                      From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com [mailto: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Eric Hess
                                      Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2008 8:55 AM
                                      To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: [MedievalSawdust] Re: Oily Rags,

                                       

                                      We had a customer at Woodcraft come in after putting BLO on his new workbench.  He left the rag lying on a table nearby and went inside for lunch, got distracted and came back several hours later just in time to watch the rag burst into flame.  He had an exciting few minutes getting that out, but fortunately nothing was seriously damaged.  Even one rag can be dangerous.  Always be careful.

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