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Painting Oak

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  • Wade Hutchison
    So, Matthew, what paint would you recommend for a proper medieval finish? Is part of the unease with painting coming from the appearance you get from modern
    Message 1 of 14 , May 19, 2008
      So, Matthew, what paint would you recommend for a proper medieval
      finish? Is part of the unease with painting coming from the
      appearance you get from modern latex paints?
      How would you/do you get the period "polychrome" appearance?
      -----wade hutchison/Gille MacDhnouill (SCA).


      > 2b. Re: Fuming Oak?
      > Posted by: "julian wilson" smnco37@... smnco37
      > Date: Tue May 6, 2008 10:11 am ((PDT))

      > FURTHER COMMENT
      >
      > Conal,
      > this humble veteran soldier would go even further than Master Terafan.
      >
      > IMHO, if your medieval persona had commissioned such high-status objects for your House, you'd most-likely have sent them to the local Journeyman or Master of the Limners Guild to be properly decorated in bright colours, with devices appertaining to your Emblazon, if not others from your Achievement.
      > Only those gentles too poor to afford the Painting would have "suffered" wooden objects of otherwise high-quality showing the timber grain.
      >
      > There are too many examples of high-status medieval items made from high-quality timber in Museums, wtih Museum-catalogue comments that the piece shows "traces of Polychrome".
      >
      > And without even trying hard, I can think of the roofs of St. George's Chapel, Windsor, - of Westminster Hall; - and of the Brothers' Hall at The Almshouse of Noble Poverty, St. Cross, Winchester, - of a Livery Chest in the Tower Collection, and the "Treaty of Calais" coffer in the UK National Archives - which have retained part - or all of their original painted decoration.
      > About 10 years back, as part of a project on surviving medieval woodwork items, - I composed a list of such artifacts from the UK, and from France, and from Germany, - and was quite startled to discover how many had obviously been painted overall, "in-period". Because, until that point, I'd not even thought about timber being darekend from it's original natural colour by the dirt of age and use.
      >
      > IMHO, "showing the timber grain" was a 16th and 17th Century "Fashion" to show you could afford to commission a Piece using increasingly rare high-quality timber, or made from one of the imported, expensive "exotics". And that "Fashion" rightly belongs to the 16th & 17th centuries, when demand for quality timber for building ships for national navies, and timber-framed houses for the rising European population, - had caused increasing scarcity of high-quality European hardwoods - such as oak and chestnut.
      >
      > In humble Service to The Light, the SCA Dream, and to Drachenwald.
      > Matthew Baker
    • julian wilson
      ... Subject: [MedievalSawdust] Painting Oak So, Matthew, what paint would you recommend for a proper medieval finish? Is part of the unease with painting
      Message 2 of 14 , May 19, 2008
        --- On Mon, 19/5/08, Wade Hutchison <whutchis@...> wrote:
        Subject: [MedievalSawdust] Painting Oak
        So, Matthew, what paint would you recommend for a proper medieval finish? Is part of the unease with painting coming from the appearance you get from modern latex paints?
        How would you/do you get the period "polychrome" appearance?

        REPLY
        I apologise for not replying to this question sooner - but we have just been away for 5 days to attend Insulæ Draconis Viceroy Tourney.

        Since my House has been re-enacting with the "Company of The Duke's Leopards" [which we helped to Found], and more recently with the SCA in Insulæ Draconis, we haven't had any critical commments from any person who had the academic and technical background which would qualify them to make such comments.
        I am a working craftsman and quite comfortable with my skills, acquired over the last 50 years - and if anyone is going to criticise what I do in my Craft, I'm going to assure myself they are at least as well qualified and as experienced as myself, - before taking any serious note of the content of any critique.

        If someone was asking me to do a "museum-quality painted replica" for them, and was willing to pay appropriately for my Craft skills, -  then I'd be looking at Daniel V. Thompson's translation of "Il Libro dell' Arte", by Cennino d' Andrea Cennini, for his formulæ for making period paint. Make up what I needed, and use that.
        However, if my Client was asking only for a finish that would pass the "3ft Rule" - [which I take to imply anything short of actual lab analysis], then I'd seek for several contemporary medieval illuminated manuscripts, search the illuminations until I found the colours I needed, and take those down-loaded illuminations along to one of the several local Decorators' Merchants, and get them to computer-match the colours in a semi-matt commercial finish. Why? 
        The computer colour-match will be accurate. And the commercial cost much cheaper than going through an Art Supplier.
        Then I'd carefully add some ageing, some grime, and some UV fading, - and how do I that? - - sorry - I claim commercial confidentiality.

         
        In Service,
        Matthew
      • Lisa Wiser
        Except to be a museum-quality painted replica why age? If I were a mid-12th Century Lady, requesting a new piece of furniture, should it not look new when I
        Message 3 of 14 , May 20, 2008
          Except to be a "museum-quality painted replica" why age? If I were a
          mid-12th Century Lady, requesting a new piece of furniture, should it
          not look new when I receive it?

          Lia de Langley

          julian wilson wrote:
          >
          > Then I'd carefully add some ageing, some grime, and some UV fading, -
          > and how do I that? - - sorry - I claim commercial confidentiality.
          >
        • Rebekah d'Avignon
          Suspicious sign in shop window: Antiques Made To Order. Lisa Wiser wrote: Except to be a museum-quality painted replica why age? If I were
          Message 4 of 14 , May 20, 2008
            Suspicious sign in shop window:
             
            Antiques Made To Order.


            Lisa Wiser <lawiser@...> wrote:
            Except to be a "museum-quality painted replica" why age? If I were a
            mid-12th Century Lady, requesting a new piece of furniture, should it
            not look new when I receive it?

            Lia de Langley

            Messages in this topic (3) Reply (via web post) | Start a new topic
            .




            RdA
            Tools alone do not a craftsman make.

          • julian wilson
            Yes, but if your persona is 15th century and your encampment likewise,and for some reason you have requested a piece from me taken from a 14th Century
            Message 5 of 14 , May 20, 2008

              Yes, but if your persona is 15th century and your encampment likewise,and for some reason you have requested a piece from me taken from a 14th Century picture/illumination?

              It depends on the parameters of the Commission.

              And somewhere out-of-sight on the item will be my name, and the date, indelibly inscribed or incised or punched/stamped.

               

              Matthew Baker

              .

              --- On Tue, 20/5/08, Rebekah d'Avignon <rebekahdavignon@...> wrote:

              From: Rebekah d'Avignon <rebekahdavignon@...>
              Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] Painting Oak
              To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Tuesday, 20 May, 2008, 4:46 PM

              Suspicious sign in shop window:
               
              Antiques Made To Order.


              Lisa Wiser <lawiser@att. net> wrote:
              Except to be a "museum-quality painted replica" why age? If I were a
              mid-12th Century Lady, requesting a new piece of furniture, should it
              not look new when I receive it?

              Lia de Langley

              Messages in this topic (3) Reply (via web post) | Start a new topic
              .




              RdA
              Tools alone do not a craftsman make.

            • Bill McNutt
              Most folks don t take that attitude. Most want, for whatever reason, a new antique. Will _____ From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
              Message 6 of 14 , May 20, 2008
                Most folks don't take that attitude.  Most want, for whatever reason, a "new antique."
                 
                Will


                From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com [mailto:medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Lisa Wiser
                Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2008 11:23 AM
                To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] Painting Oak

                Except to be a "museum-quality painted replica" why age? If I were a
                mid-12th Century Lady, requesting a new piece of furniture, should it
                not look new when I receive it?

                Lia de Langley

                julian wilson wrote:

                >
                > Then I'd carefully add some ageing, some grime, and some
                UV fading, -
                > and how do I that? - - sorry - I claim commercial
                confidentiality.
                >

              • julian wilson
                Will, it all depends on what the Client is asking for and is prepared to pay for, doesn t it. Matthew --- On Tue, 20/5/08, Bill McNutt
                Message 7 of 14 , May 20, 2008

                  Will,

                  it all depends on what the Client is asking for and is prepared to pay for, doesn't it.

                  Matthew

                  --- On Tue, 20/5/08, Bill McNutt <mcnutt@...> wrote:

                  From: Bill McNutt <mcnutt@...>
                  Subject: RE: [MedievalSawdust] Painting Oak
                  To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Tuesday, 20 May, 2008, 6:01 PM

                  Most folks don't take that attitude.  Most want, for whatever reason, a "new antique."
                   
                  Will


                  From: medievalsawdust@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:medievalsaw dust@yahoogroups .com] On Behalf Of Lisa Wiser
                  Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2008 11:23 AM
                  To: medievalsawdust@ yahoogroups. com
                  Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] Painting Oak

                  Except to be a "museum-quality painted replica" why age? If I were a
                  mid-12th Century Lady, requesting a new piece of furniture, should it
                  not look new when I receive it?

                  Lia de Langley

                  julian wilson wrote:
                  >
                  > Then I'd carefully add some ageing, some grime, and some UV fading, -
                  > and how do I that? - - sorry - I claim commercial confidentiality.
                  >

                • Bill McNutt
                  Absolutely. _____ From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com [mailto:medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of julian wilson Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2008 1:12 PM
                  Message 8 of 14 , May 20, 2008
                    Absolutely.


                    From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com [mailto:medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of julian wilson
                    Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2008 1:12 PM
                    To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: RE: [MedievalSawdust] Painting Oak

                    Will,

                    it all depends on what the Client is asking for and is prepared to pay for, doesn't it.

                    Matthew

                    --- On Tue, 20/5/08, Bill McNutt <mcnutt@pobox. com> wrote:

                    From: Bill McNutt <mcnutt@pobox. com>
                    Subject: RE: [MedievalSawdust] Painting Oak
                    To: medievalsawdust@ yahoogroups. com
                    Date: Tuesday, 20 May, 2008, 6:01 PM

                    Most folks don't take that attitude.  Most want, for whatever reason, a "new antique."
                     
                    Will


                    From: medievalsawdust@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:medievalsaw dust@yahoogroups .com] On Behalf Of Lisa Wiser
                    Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2008 11:23 AM
                    To: medievalsawdust@ yahoogroups. com
                    Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] Painting Oak

                    Except to be a "museum-quality painted replica" why age? If I were a
                    mid-12th Century Lady, requesting a new piece of furniture, should it
                    not look new when I receive it?

                    Lia de Langley

                    julian wilson wrote:
                    >
                    > Then I'd carefully add some ageing, some grime, and some UV fading, -
                    > and how do I that? - - sorry - I claim commercial confidentiality.
                    >

                  • Jeff Johnson
                    Yeah, when we do reenactments, people are always commenting that our materials look too good, especially when there are judged events and judges expect
                    Message 9 of 14 , May 20, 2008
                      Yeah, when we do reenactments, people are always commenting that our
                      materials look too good, especially when there are judged events and
                      judges expect medieval stuff to be dark, dingy and look 400 years old.

                      They are right about part of it, though. Too much of our modern work
                      is too precise compared to surviving pieces I've seen in museums. I've
                      had to force myself to do things like leave knots in furniture. :)

                      I'd like to see some of Julian's Cennini-derived painted work. Aged or
                      otherwise. Photos?

                      Jeff Johnson/Geoffrey Bourette (SCA)

                      --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, Lisa Wiser <lawiser@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Except to be a "museum-quality painted replica" why age? If I were a
                      > mid-12th Century Lady, requesting a new piece of furniture, should it
                      > not look new when I receive it?
                      >
                      > Lia de Langley
                      >te
                      > julian wilson wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Then I'd carefully add some ageing, some grime, and some UV fading, -
                      > > and how do I that? - - sorry - I claim commercial confidentiality.
                      > >
                      >
                    • John LaTorre
                      ... I gotta tell a story here. In the West Kingdom s center, there are two Principalities, the Mists and Cynagua. When the Mists needed new thrones, they
                      Message 10 of 14 , May 21, 2008
                        Matthew wrote:
                        >
                        > And somewhere out-of-sight on the item will be my name, and the
                        > date, indelibly inscribed or incised or punched/stamped.
                        >

                        I gotta tell a story here. In the West Kingdom's center, there are two
                        Principalities, the Mists and Cynagua. When the Mists needed new
                        thrones, they commissioned them from one Master Edward le Kervere, a
                        noted woodworker in Cynagua. They were eventually finished and
                        delivered, with "Made in Cynagua" carved in an inconspicuous place on
                        both thrones.

                        Years later, they commissioned a pavilion from my shop, which was just
                        down the road from Ed's shop. I couldn't resist sewing a little "Made in
                        Cynagua" tag under the valance where it wouldn't be easily seeen.

                        ---Johann von Drachenfels
                      • Bill McNutt
                        I have a special appendix that I attach to all of the documentation of my pieces. The Inside Is Supposed to Be Butt-Ugly It s got pictures of several chests,
                        Message 11 of 14 , May 21, 2008
                          I have a special appendix that I attach to all of the documentation of my pieces.
                           
                          "The Inside Is Supposed to Be Butt-Ugly"
                           
                          It's got pictures of several chests, boxes, and other items from the inside, to demonstrate that the inside of most pieces was unfinished.
                           
                          Will


                          From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com [mailto:medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Johnson
                          Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2008 6:52 PM
                          To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: [MedievalSawdust] Re: Painting Oak

                          They are right about part of it, though. Too much of our modern work
                          is too precise compared to surviving pieces I've seen in museums. I've
                          had to force myself to do things like leave knots in furniture. :)

                          .

                        • Bill McNutt
                          Heh. The Kingdom Pavilion for Meridies has a Made in Calontir label. Will _____ From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                          Message 12 of 14 , May 21, 2008
                            Heh.  The Kingdom Pavilion for Meridies has a "Made in Calontir" label.
                             
                            Will


                            From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com [mailto:medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John LaTorre
                            Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2008 1:25 PM
                            To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: [MedievalSawdust] Re: Painting Oak

                            Matthew wrote:

                            >
                            > And somewhere out-of-sight on the item will be
                            my name, and the
                            > date, indelibly inscribed or incised or
                            punched/stamped.
                            >

                            I gotta tell a story here. In the West Kingdom's center, there are two
                            Principalities, the Mists and Cynagua. When the Mists needed new
                            thrones, they commissioned them from one Master Edward le Kervere, a
                            noted woodworker in Cynagua. They were eventually finished and
                            delivered, with "Made in Cynagua" carved in an inconspicuous place on
                            both thrones.

                            Years later, they commissioned a pavilion from my shop, which was just
                            down the road from Ed's shop. I couldn't resist sewing a little "Made in
                            Cynagua" tag under the valance where it wouldn't be easily seeen.

                            ---Johann von Drachenfels

                          • julian wilson
                            ... Heh. The Kingdom Pavilion for Meridies has a Made in Calontir label. ORIGINAL MESSAGE On Behalf Of John LaTorre Subject: Re: Painting Oak ... I gotta
                            Message 13 of 14 , May 21, 2008
                              --- On Wed, 21/5/08, Bill McNutt <mcnutt@...> wrote:
                              Heh. The Kingdom Pavilion for Meridies has a "Made in Calontir" label.



                              ORIGINAL MESSAGE
                              On Behalf Of John LaTorre
                              Subject: Re: Painting Oak
                              Matthew wrote:
                              >
                              > And somewhere out-of-sight on the item will be my name, and the
                              > date, indelibly inscribed or incised or punched/stamped.
                              >
                              I gotta tell a story here. SNIPPED FOR BREVITY
                              I couldn't resist sewing a little "Made in
                              Cynagua" tag under the valance where it wouldn't be easily seen.

                              COMMENT
                              OK, that's ironic - but aren't we supposed to be "one big happy family"?
                              And trading across Kingdom Borders is thoroughly medieval - read Peter Spufford's 2 meticulously-researched books on medieval Trade in Europe.
                              To make analogy -
                              if you want the Limbourg Brothers, you send to Flanders; as you would for lace - to either Mechelin - [or if you can wait a whyle, to the Isle of Burano in the Venetian Lagoon]
                              if you want the best plate armour, then you send to Nurnburg or to Milan;
                              if you want the best steel forged into a high-quality sword, [ assuming you don't know of the "Japans" yet] then you send to Toledo or to Damascus.
                              If you want high-quality glassware, you send to forested Bohemia, or even to the Isle of Murano in the Venetian Republic
                              If you want the work of the best Mechanics, you send to Nurnburg,
                              and if you want a printed book, - for example the "Gayme & Playe of Chess", - you send to Master Chaucer or Master Wykyn de Worde at the Sign of the Red Pale, in the ancient City of London.
                              Thopse are just a few analogies for cross-border Trade.
                              Why should our Society be any different?
                               
                              YiS,
                              Matthew Baker









                              H


                              .
                            • Dmitrii
                              Even a better example, the silk road. Spices, beautiful silks etc etc from china to England. Dmitrii Fight with HONOR, Die with HONOR! _____ From:
                              Message 14 of 14 , May 21, 2008

                                Even a better example, the silk road. Spices, beautiful silks etc etc from china to England .

                                 

                                Dmitrii

                                 

                                Fight with HONOR, Die with HONOR!


                                From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com [mailto: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of julian wilson
                                Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2008 2:15 PM
                                To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: [MedievalSawdust] Cross-Border Trading - was Re: Painting Oak

                                 


                                --- On Wed, 21/5/08, Bill McNutt <mcnutt@pobox. com> wrote:
                                Heh. The Kingdom Pavilion for Meridies has a "Made in Calontir" label.


                                ORIGINAL MESSAGE
                                On Behalf Of John LaTorre
                                Subject: Re: Painting Oak
                                Matthew wrote:

                                >
                                > And somewhere out-of-sight on the item will be my name, and the
                                > date, indelibly inscribed or incised or punched/stamped.
                                >
                                I gotta tell a story here. SNIPPED FOR BREVITY
                                I couldn't resist sewing a little "Made in
                                Cynagua" tag under the valance where it wouldn't be easily seen.

                                COMMENT
                                OK, that's ironic - but aren't we supposed to be "one big happy family"?
                                And trading across Kingdom Borders is thoroughly medieval - read Peter Spufford's 2 meticulously- researched books on medieval Trade in Europe .
                                To make analogy -
                                if you want the Limbourg Brothers, you send to Flanders ; as you would for lace - to either Mechelin - [or if you can wait a whyle, to the Isle of Burano in the Venetian Lagoon]
                                if you want the best plate armour, then you send to Nurnburg or to Milan;
                                if you want the best steel forged into a high-quality sword, [ assuming you don't know of the "Japans" yet] then you send to Toledo or to Damascus.
                                If you want high-quality glassware, you send to forested Bohemia , or even to the Isle of Murano in the Venetian Republic
                                If you want the work of the best Mechanics, you send to Nurnburg,
                                and if you want a printed book, - for example the "Gayme & Playe of Chess", - you send to Master Chaucer or Master Wykyn de Worde at the Sign of the Red Pale, in the ancient City of London .
                                Thopse are just a few analogies for cross-border Trade.
                                Why should our Society be any different?
                                 
                                YiS,
                                Matthew Baker

                                H



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