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RARE English 16th C. Ballock Dagger w/Leather Scabbard

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  • rmhowe
    Thought you might enjoy viewing a real item with scabbard. :)
    Message 1 of 19 , Dec 12, 2004
      Thought you might enjoy viewing a real item with scabbard. :)
      <http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1552&item=2241766651&rd=1>
    • Susan Fox-Davis
      ... Yay! Now here is a kick in the ... bits for those authenticity mavens who insist that stamped leather was not period. Ha! Happy Selene and her stamp
      Message 2 of 19 , Dec 13, 2004
        >
        >
        >Master Magnus sez:
        >
        >Thought you might enjoy viewing a real item with scabbard. :)
        ><http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1552&item=2241766651&rd=1>
        >

        Yay! Now here is a kick in the ... bits for those "authenticity mavens"
        who insist that stamped leather was not period. Ha!

        Happy Selene and her stamp collection
      • Marc Carlson
        ... Are there actually any who still believe that? I assumed that all the stuff coming out since the 80s would have finally killed that canard. Marc
        Message 3 of 19 , Dec 13, 2004
          --- In medieval-leather@yahoogroups.com, Susan Fox-Davis <selene@e...>
          wrote:
          > Yay! Now here is a kick in the ... bits for those "authenticity
          > mavens" who insist that stamped leather was not period. Ha!

          Are there actually any who still believe that? I assumed that all the
          stuff coming out since the 80s would have finally killed that canard.

          Marc
        • Anna Troy
          Who told you that? The modern raised type of stamps aren t period but the stamping technique is. Anna T ...
          Message 4 of 19 , Dec 13, 2004
            Who told you that? The modern raised type of stamps
            aren't period but the stamping technique is.

            Anna T

            --- Susan Fox-Davis <selene@...> wrote:

            >
            > Yay! Now here is a kick in the ... bits for those
            > "authenticity mavens"
            > who insist that stamped leather was not period. Ha!
            >
            > Happy Selene and her stamp collection
            >
            >
            >
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            =====
            "So many books, so little time"
          • Susan Fox-Davis
            ... Determined nay-sayers who won t listen to reason, and a few self-proclaimed experts are too self-important to learn. I knew better, honestly. Selene
            Message 5 of 19 , Dec 13, 2004
              --- In medieval-leather@yahoogroups.com, Susan Fox-Davis <selene@e...>
              wrote:
              >> Yay! Now here is a kick in the ... bits for those "authenticity
              >> mavens" who insist that stamped leather was not period. Ha!

              >Are there actually any who still believe that? I assumed that all the
              >stuff coming out since the 80s would have finally killed that canard.

              >Marc

              Determined nay-sayers who won't listen to reason, and a few self-proclaimed
              "experts" are too self-important to learn. I knew better, honestly.

              Selene
            • Michael Sheldon
              ... True, but I get a kick out of RARE English 16th C. Ballock Dagger ... Circa 1650 Um, that would be *17th* century... ... Michael J Sheldon
              Message 6 of 19 , Dec 14, 2004
                > Yay! Now here is a kick in the ... bits for those "authenticity mavens"
                > who insist that stamped leather was not period. Ha!

                True, but I get a kick out of "RARE English 16th C. Ballock Dagger ..."

                "Circa 1650"


                Um, that would be *17th* century...

                :)

                Michael J Sheldon
                http://www.desertraven.net/
                Make a fast friend, adopt a greyhound!
              • Marc Carlson
                ... Oh, not a doubt there - I was just surprised that some of those still existed. OTOH, I will have to say that the condescending glance and derisive snort
                Message 7 of 19 , Dec 14, 2004
                  --- In medieval-leather@yahoogroups.com, Susan Fox-Davis <selene@e...>
                  wrote:
                  > Determined nay-sayers who won't listen to reason, and a few
                  > self-proclaimed "experts" are too self-important to learn. I knew
                  > better, honestly.

                  Oh, not a doubt there - I was just surprised that some of those still
                  existed. OTOH, I will have to say that the condescending glance and
                  derisive snort I've used in the deep past when dealing with people
                  trying to tell me that tooling isn't "period" may not be the most
                  condusive means for keeping up a good dialogue on what other people
                  think :)

                  Marc
                • Tim Bray
                  ... I wonder where/how that idea even got started? It s not like many other myths about the MA, that had at least some rationale, or are found in print. (I
                  Message 8 of 19 , Dec 14, 2004
                    >trying to tell me that tooling isn't "period"

                    I wonder where/how that idea even got started? It's not like many other
                    myths about the MA, that had at least some rationale, or are found in
                    print. (I can excuse people for being suckered by something they read. At
                    least they are reading!) But I've never seen this claim in print; the
                    older books that mention medieval leather show examples of highly
                    decorated, tooled objects (Waterer, the London Museum catalogue of 1949,
                    etc). And there are examples even in American museums, on both coasts. So
                    where did anyone get this idea in the first place?


                    Albion Works
                    Furniture and Accessories
                    For the Medievalist!
                    http://www.albionworks.net
                    http://www.albionworks.com
                  • Phlip
                    Ene bichizh ogsen baina shuu... ... At ... So ... Might just be the strong association people have with tooling as a Western or cowboy thing. Saint Phlip,
                    Message 9 of 19 , Dec 14, 2004
                      Ene bichizh ogsen baina shuu...

                      > >trying to tell me that tooling isn't "period"
                      >
                      > I wonder where/how that idea even got started? It's not like many other
                      > myths about the MA, that had at least some rationale, or are found in
                      > print. (I can excuse people for being suckered by something they read.
                      At
                      > least they are reading!) But I've never seen this claim in print; the
                      > older books that mention medieval leather show examples of highly
                      > decorated, tooled objects (Waterer, the London Museum catalogue of 1949,
                      > etc). And there are examples even in American museums, on both coasts.
                      So
                      > where did anyone get this idea in the first place?

                      Might just be the strong association people have with tooling as a "Western"
                      or cowboy thing.

                      Saint Phlip,
                      CoD

                      "When in doubt, heat it up and hit it with a hammer."
                      Blacksmith's credo.

                      If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it is probably not a
                      cat.

                      Never a horse that cain't be rode,
                      And never a rider who cain't be throwed....



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                    • Marc Carlson
                      ... That would be my guess - or even that in early days (either of SCA or some other early historical group) someone tried doing tooling in the modern western
                      Message 10 of 19 , Dec 14, 2004
                        --- In medieval-leather@yahoogroups.com, "Phlip" <phlip@9...> wrote:
                        > Might just be the strong association people have with tooling as a
                        > "Western" or cowboy thing.

                        That would be my guess - or even that in early days (either of SCA or
                        some other early historical group) someone tried doing tooling in the
                        modern western motif, people were told that it was not period and they
                        assumed the criticism was tooling, not just the motif (although there
                        are some aspects of Tudor era design that are similar to, though
                        different from, the Great American Floral designs).

                        Marc
                      • Corwyn Ravenwing & Carowyn Silveroak
                        Greetings! ... Hey, Marc, you have that spiffy-cool website - in your Copious Spare Time (hah!), do you think it would be a good idea to add a Leather Myths
                        Message 11 of 19 , Dec 14, 2004
                          Greetings!

                          > That would be my guess - or even that in early days (either of SCA
                          > or some other early historical group) someone tried doing tooling in
                          > the modern western motif, people were told that it was not period and
                          > they assumed the criticism was tooling, not just the motif (although
                          > there are some aspects of Tudor era design that are similar to, though
                          > different from, the Great American Floral designs).

                          Hey, Marc, you have that spiffy-cool website - in your Copious Spare Time
                          (hah!), do you think it would be a good idea to add a Leather Myths
                          section, and later have it expand to all sorts of art / craft myths? And
                          myths that are facts?

                          -Carowyn, being her instigatory self
                        • muck
                          Surprisingly enough, I ve found one metal book cover photo that has the classic fern/acanthus leaf western pattern on it from about the 1100 s. So the design
                          Message 12 of 19 , Dec 14, 2004
                            Surprisingly enough, I've found one metal book cover photo that has the
                            classic "fern/acanthus leaf" western pattern on it from about the 1100's.
                            So the design itself is very medieval, just no evidence of it on leather.
                            ;)
                            YIS,
                            Phillip the Skeptic


                            On Tue, 14 Dec 2004, Marc Carlson wrote:

                            >
                            >
                            > --- In medieval-leather@yahoogroups.com, "Phlip" <phlip@9...> wrote:
                            > > Might just be the strong association people have with tooling as a
                            > > "Western" or cowboy thing.
                            >
                            > That would be my guess - or even that in early days (either of SCA or
                            > some other early historical group) someone tried doing tooling in the
                            > modern western motif, people were told that it was not period and they
                            > assumed the criticism was tooling, not just the motif (although there
                            > are some aspects of Tudor era design that are similar to, though
                            > different from, the Great American Floral designs).
                            >
                            > Marc
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
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                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                          • Tim Bray
                            ... We ve discussed this before, and I had a temporary Web page of leaf-scroll designs from Early to Late MA showing some striking similarities to some of the
                            Message 13 of 19 , Dec 15, 2004
                              >are some aspects of Tudor era design that are similar to, though
                              >different from, the Great American Floral designs).

                              We've discussed this before, and I had a temporary Web page of leaf-scroll
                              designs from Early to Late MA showing some striking similarities to some of
                              the "Western" floral designs. Including a metal book-cover, probably the
                              same one Phillip the Skeptic is talking about.

                              To me it seems the difference between Medieval and American floral carving
                              is more in the execution than in the design; and the differences in
                              execution are not really all that great. Both use knife-cuts and
                              backgrounding for the principal relief; American work tends to use more
                              varied stamping to add internal detail (shading, veining, etc.) and I
                              haven't seen a lot of evidence for pear-shader work in medieval
                              leaf-and-vine tooling.

                              Cheers,
                              Colin


                              Albion Works
                              Furniture and Accessories
                              For the Medievalist!
                              http://www.albionworks.net
                              http://www.albionworks.com
                            • Marc Carlson
                              ... That would be delightful. I ll have one of the elves get to work on it right away :) Unless you would care to.... Marc
                              Message 14 of 19 , Dec 15, 2004
                                --- In medieval-leather@yahoogroups.com, Corwyn Ravenwing & Carowyn
                                Silveroak <silveroak@j...> wrote:
                                > Hey, Marc, you have that spiffy-cool website - in your Copious Spare
                                >Time (hah!), do you think it would be a good idea to add a Leather
                                >Myths section, and later have it expand to all sorts of art / craft
                                >myths? And myths that are facts?
                                > -Carowyn, being her instigatory self

                                That would be delightful. I'll have one of the elves get to work on
                                it right away :)

                                Unless you would care to....

                                Marc
                              • Corwyn Ravenwing & Carowyn Silveroak
                                Hello! ... LOL! Yeah, I can relate... ... I m actually glad you said that - after I posted to the list, I got to talking about it with my husband, and he s
                                Message 15 of 19 , Dec 15, 2004
                                  Hello!

                                  > >... do you think it would be a good idea to add a Leather
                                  > >Myths section, and later have it expand to all sorts of art /
                                  > craft myths? And myths that are facts?

                                  > That would be delightful. I'll have one of the elves get to work
                                  > on it right away :)

                                  LOL! Yeah, I can relate...

                                  > Unless you would care to....

                                  I'm actually glad you said that - after I posted to the list, I got to
                                  talking about it with my husband, and he's now talking with the SCA East
                                  Kingdom Webminister to set up such a database for all A&S - what
                                  technique, what date it first appears, where it appears (so we can have
                                  multiple listings as a technique spreads), all set up under A&S headings
                                  (glass, tools, leather, cloth, etc.)

                                  He sounds incredibly excited about it! So if y'all don't mind, and it
                                  may be in an SCA-related website, but Arts and Sciences is something to
                                  get everyone excited no matter where it's located! And I know my husband
                                  would like to expand out of period, too, because some techniques are good
                                  to know even if they don't quite fit within search parameters. (I'm
                                  thinking of a jeweler's saw, and how I want to know just when it was
                                  invented...sigh...)

                                  -Carowyn
                                • Marc Carlson
                                  ... I know I ll be interested in seeing it when it s compiled. Just because it s related to the SCA doesn t automatically make it anything but related to the
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Dec 15, 2004
                                    --- In medieval-leather@yahoogroups.com, Corwyn Ravenwing & Carowyn
                                    Silveroak <silveroak@j...> wrote:
                                    > He sounds incredibly excited about it! So if y'all don't mind, and it
                                    > may be in an SCA-related website, but Arts and Sciences is something
                                    > to get everyone excited no matter where it's located!...

                                    I know I'll be interested in seeing it when it's compiled. Just
                                    because it's related to the SCA doesn't automatically make it anything
                                    but related to the SCA. It may also be good or bad, but those are
                                    individual variations :)

                                    Marc
                                  • Phlip
                                    Ene bichizh ogsen baina shuu... (I m ... Don t know about the jeweler s saw specificly, but one of the items in the Mastermyr find is a bow-type saw. I imagine
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Dec 15, 2004
                                      Ene bichizh ogsen baina shuu...

                                      (I'm
                                      > thinking of a jeweler's saw, and how I want to know just when it was
                                      > invented...sigh...)
                                      >
                                      > -Carowyn

                                      Don't know about the jeweler's saw specificly, but one of the items in the
                                      Mastermyr find is a bow-type saw. I imagine that if they had that basic
                                      design, they would also develop blades to fit their needs. Mastermyr, btw,
                                      was from about 1000 CE.

                                      I need to find out more about bellows. I know the double lung bellows were
                                      used at the very end of SCA period by smiths, which they learned about from
                                      jewelers, but I'd like to find a specific citation. Since the only sensible
                                      material to use at that time for bellows was leather (in addition to the
                                      wood frame), does anyone here have a clue?

                                      Saint Phlip,
                                      CoD

                                      "When in doubt, heat it up and hit it with a hammer."
                                      Blacksmith's credo.

                                      If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it is probably not a
                                      cat.

                                      Never a horse that cain't be rode,
                                      And never a rider who cain't be throwed....



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                                      No virus found in this outgoing message.
                                      Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
                                      Version: 7.0.296 / Virus Database: 265.5.2 - Release Date: 12/13/04
                                    • Ron Charlotte
                                      ... The pear shader does seem to be a pretty modern tool in that application. If it existed at all, it was most likely used in the reverse for creating raised
                                      Message 18 of 19 , Dec 15, 2004
                                        At 11:57 AM 12/15/04, Colin wrote:
                                        >To me it seems the difference between Medieval and American floral carving
                                        >is more in the execution than in the design; and the differences in
                                        >execution are not really all that great. Both use knife-cuts and
                                        >backgrounding for the principal relief; American work tends to use more
                                        >varied stamping to add internal detail (shading, veining, etc.) and I
                                        >haven't seen a lot of evidence for pear-shader work in medieval
                                        >leaf-and-vine tooling.

                                        The pear shader does seem to be a pretty modern tool in that
                                        application. If it existed at all, it was most likely used in the reverse
                                        for creating raised designs when an actual mold wasn't available or
                                        needed. The few historical designs I've seen that have pear shader type
                                        effects are more likely to be modeling spoon work (even taking age and wear
                                        into account, the pear shader compression effect is pretty noticable).


                                        Ron Charlotte -- Gainesville, FL
                                        ronch2@... OR afn03234@...
                                      • Ron Charlotte
                                        ... That s one of my hunts too. The bow type saws are pretty well established, but the point in time when jewelry workers got good enough blade material to
                                        Message 19 of 19 , Dec 15, 2004
                                          At 05:56 PM 12/15/04, Saint Phlip wrote:
                                          >(I'm
                                          > > thinking of a jeweler's saw, and how I want to know just when it was
                                          > > invented...sigh...)
                                          > >
                                          > > -Carowyn
                                          That's one of my hunts too. The bow type saws are pretty well established,
                                          but the point in time when jewelry workers got good enough blade material
                                          to adopt the inlay workers fret saw is the one I've been seeking (it just
                                          takes better steel to go from very thin wood to even soft metal, with a
                                          blade that fine). I suspect that it's fairly late in the 16th century, or
                                          the first half of the 17th.


                                          >Don't know about the jeweler's saw specificly, but one of the items in the
                                          >Mastermyr find is a bow-type saw. I imagine that if they had that basic
                                          >design, they would also develop blades to fit their needs. Mastermyr, btw,
                                          >was from about 1000 CE.
                                          >
                                          >I need to find out more about bellows. I know the double lung bellows were
                                          >used at the very end of SCA period by smiths, which they learned about from
                                          >jewelers, but I'd like to find a specific citation. Since the only sensible
                                          >material to use at that time for bellows was leather (in addition to the
                                          >wood frame), does anyone here have a clue?

                                          The Pirotechnicia (ISBN 0-486-26134-4) , and De Re Metallica (ISBN
                                          0-486-60006-8), both document double lung bellows. Then, there's that
                                          constant pressure bellows from Theophilus' On Divers Arts (ISBN
                                          0-486-23784-2).





                                          Ron Charlotte -- Gainesville, FL
                                          ronch2@... OR afn03234@...

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