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Re: [medieval-leather] long sax sheath

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  • Charles Anderson
    How sharp is the blade? Is it meant for combat or just as an ornament? Ah well... any way a metal collar will stop the blade ripping the leather to shreds.
    Message 1 of 11 , Nov 1, 2003
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      How sharp is the blade? Is it meant for combat or just as an ornament?
      Ah well... any way a metal collar will stop the blade ripping the
      leather to shreds. Personally I wouldn't do this, as I haven't found a
      need for it with combat ready blades. Regards Charles

      Alasdair Muckart wrote:

      >Greetings,
      >
      >While we're on the topic of sax sheaths, I have a friend with a long
      >(>12" blade) sax that he wants a sheath for and I'm not entirely sure
      >where to start.
      >
      >I considered building a regular folded sheath with riveted copper to
      >provide rigidity but with the shape of the blade the fold would be on
      >the edge of the blade and with the size and sharpness of this thing I'm
      >concerned that it would just cut it's way out of the sheath when drawn.
      >
      >Can anyone give me pointers to sources for alternative patterns for this
      >type of blade? Were long sax like this just carried like swords?
      >
      >
      >
    • Alasdair Muckart
      ... I couldn t quite shave with it but it s not that far off. ... It s a possibility, but I wouldn t want to subject the blade to being dragged across a metal
      Message 2 of 11 , Nov 1, 2003
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        On Sun, 2003-11-02 at 12:38, Charles Anderson wrote:
        > How sharp is the blade? Is it meant for combat or just as an ornament?

        I couldn't quite shave with it but it's not that far off.

        > Ah well... any way a metal collar will stop the blade ripping the
        > leather to shreds. Personally I wouldn't do this, as I haven't found a
        > need for it with combat ready blades. Regards Charles

        It's a possibility, but I wouldn't want to subject the blade to being
        dragged across a metal collar every time it went in or out of the
        sheath.

        --
        Al.
      • Leather Work
        Got two possible cures for you to NOT drag a sharp edge out of a sheath across a rivet. 1. Use a strong gusset on that edge.. that way you wont cut the
        Message 3 of 11 , Nov 1, 2003
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          Got two possible cures for you to NOT drag a sharp edge out of a sheath across a rivet. 
           
          1.  Use a strong gusset on that edge.. that way you wont cut the threads.
           
          2.  Put in a hard nylon 'rider'... replaceable with a chicago screw.  Or just rivet the nylon piece between the layers.
           
          Most of my sheaths either for dagger or single edge I put in gussets where the edge will face the threads.  Never had one cut out yet by a customer.
           
          Charles
          scaka Lazarus
          www.leatherwork.biz
           
           
           


          Alasdair Muckart <silver@...> wrote:
          On Sun, 2003-11-02 at 12:38, Charles Anderson wrote:
          > How sharp is the blade?  Is it meant for combat or just as an ornament?

          I couldn't quite shave with it but it's not that far off.
           
          > Ah well... any way a metal collar will stop the blade ripping the
          > leather to shreds.  Personally I wouldn't do this, as I haven't found a
          > need for it with combat ready blades.   Regards Charles

          It's a possibility, but I wouldn't want to subject the blade to being
          dragged across a metal collar every time it went in or out of the
          sheath.

          --
          Al.



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        • chad johnson
          How about using a wooden shell for your sheath? It would be period and not harm the blade as a metal collar would.
          Message 4 of 11 , Nov 1, 2003
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            How about using a wooden shell for your sheath? It would be period and not
            harm the blade as a metal collar would.

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          • legviiii
            Aren t all the extant originals riveted along the edge? I have made a couple for sharp saexes and have not had a brass rivet dull the blade yet. Wayne ...
            Message 5 of 11 , Nov 2, 2003
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              Aren't all the extant originals riveted along the edge? I have made a
              couple for sharp saexes and have not had a brass rivet dull the blade
              yet.

              Wayne

              --- In medieval-leather@yahoogroups.com, Leather Work
              <lthrwrk2000@y...> wrote:
              > Got two possible cures for you to NOT drag a sharp edge out of a
              sheath across a rivet.
              >
              > 1. Use a strong gusset on that edge.. that way you wont cut the
              threads.
              >
              > 2. Put in a hard nylon 'rider'... replaceable with a chicago
              screw. Or just rivet the nylon piece between the layers.
              >
              > Most of my sheaths either for dagger or single edge I put in
              gussets where the edge will face the threads. Never had one cut out
              yet by a customer.
              >
              > Charles
              > scaka Lazarus
              > www.leatherwork.biz
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Alasdair Muckart <silver@w...> wrote:
              > On Sun, 2003-11-02 at 12:38, Charles Anderson wrote:
              > > How sharp is the blade? Is it meant for combat or just as an
              ornament?
              >
              > I couldn't quite shave with it but it's not that far off.
              >
              > > Ah well... any way a metal collar will stop the blade ripping the
              > > leather to shreds. Personally I wouldn't do this, as I haven't
              found a
              > > need for it with combat ready blades. Regards Charles
              >
              > It's a possibility, but I wouldn't want to subject the blade to
              being
              > dragged across a metal collar every time it went in or out of the
              > sheath.
              >
              > --
              > Al.
              >
              >
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            • chad johnson
              a simple suggestion that might let you keep the look and not dull the blade. Use a strip of latigo or heavy leather sandwiched at the edge were you are
              Message 6 of 11 , Nov 3, 2003
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                a simple suggestion that might let you keep the look and not dull the blade.
                Use a strip of latigo or heavy leather sandwiched at the edge were you are
                riveting the copper. This will give you a leather edge the blade will run on
                and not take much time or take away from the design.
                ~Kestrel

                >Aren't all the extant originals riveted along the edge? I have made a
                >couple for sharp saexes and have not had a brass rivet dull the blade
                >yet.

                > > 1. Use a strong gusset on that edge.. that way you wont cut the
                >threads.
                > >
                > > 2. Put in a hard nylon 'rider'... replaceable with a chicago
                >screw. Or just rivet the nylon piece between the layers.
                > >
                > > Most of my sheaths either for dagger or single edge I put in
                >gussets where the edge will face the threads. Never had one cut out
                >yet by a customer.
                > >
                > > Charles
                > > scaka Lazarus
                > > www.leatherwork.biz
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > Alasdair Muckart <silver@w...> wrote:
                > > On Sun, 2003-11-02 at 12:38, Charles Anderson wrote:
                > > > How sharp is the blade? Is it meant for combat or just as an
                >ornament?
                > >
                > > I couldn't quite shave with it but it's not that far off.
                > >
                > > > Ah well... any way a metal collar will stop the blade ripping the
                > > > leather to shreds. Personally I wouldn't do this, as I haven't
                >found a
                > > > need for it with combat ready blades. Regards Charles
                > >
                > > It's a possibility, but I wouldn't want to subject the blade to
                >being
                > > dragged across a metal collar every time it went in or out of the
                > > sheath.
                > >
                > > --
                > > Al.
                > >
                > >
                > > Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
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                >Service.
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              • Alasdair Muckart
                ... This is what I m trying to figure out :) I was under the impression that they were folded over the edge of the blade and rivited down the back of the
                Message 7 of 11 , Nov 3, 2003
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                  On Mon, 2003-11-03 at 14:13, legviiii wrote:

                  > Aren't all the extant originals riveted along the edge? I have made a
                  > couple for sharp saexes and have not had a brass rivet dull the blade
                  > yet.

                  This is what I'm trying to figure out :) I was under the impression that
                  they were folded over the edge of the blade and rivited down the back of
                  the blade. The blade shape I'm dealing with has the straight angled drop
                  point common to sax with a ruler-straight edge. It's also over a foot
                  long.
                  ________
                  ________\
                  edge

                  If I rivet the copper over the edge (as seems sensible with this blade)
                  how do I get the fold over the back of the blade to follow the drop to
                  the point without lots of ugly creases and ripples?

                  Thanks.
                  --
                  Al
                  "Send lawyers, guns, and money
                  Dad get me out of this" -- Warren Zevon _Lawyers guns and money_
                • Alasdair Muckart
                  ... I contemplated this, but unfortunately I don t have the facilities or the tools to construct a decent wooden-cored sheath. -- Al Send lawyers, guns, and
                  Message 8 of 11 , Nov 3, 2003
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                    On Sun, 2003-11-02 at 18:36, chad johnson wrote:
                    > How about using a wooden shell for your sheath? It would be period and not
                    > harm the blade as a metal collar would.

                    I contemplated this, but unfortunately I don't have the facilities or
                    the tools to construct a decent wooden-cored sheath.

                    --
                    Al
                    "Send lawyers, guns, and money
                    Dad get me out of this" -- Warren Zevon _Lawyers guns and money_
                  • Scott Szakonyi
                    I should think you would dart it, much as you do when putting an edge binding on leather or fabric. Best, Scott Alasdair Muckart
                    Message 9 of 11 , Nov 3, 2003
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                      I should think you would dart it, much as you do when putting an edge binding on leather or fabric.
                       
                      Best,
                       
                      Scott

                      Alasdair Muckart <silver@...> wrote:
                      On Mon, 2003-11-03 at 14:13, legviiii wrote:

                      > Aren't all the extant originals riveted along the edge? I have made a
                      > couple for sharp saexes and have not had a brass rivet dull the blade
                      > yet.

                      This is what I'm trying to figure out :) I was under the impression that
                      they were folded over the edge of the blade and rivited down the back of
                      the blade. The blade shape I'm dealing with has the straight angled drop
                      point common to sax with a ruler-straight edge. It's also over a foot
                      long.
                      ________
                      ________\
                      edge

                      If I rivet the copper over the edge (as seems sensible with this blade)
                      how do I get the fold over the back of the blade to follow the drop to
                      the point without lots of ugly creases and ripples?

                      Thanks.
                      --
                      Al
                      "Send lawyers, guns, and money
                      Dad get me out of this" -- Warren Zevon _Lawyers guns and money_




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                    • lalalalalalalaau
                      ... that ... back of ... I m aware of some leather sheaths that appear to have had a strip of bronze/brass folded over the edge only (not the back), and then
                      Message 10 of 11 , Nov 3, 2003
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                        >
                        > This is what I'm trying to figure out :) I was under the impression
                        that
                        > they were folded over the edge of the blade and rivited down the
                        back of
                        > the blade.

                        I'm aware of some leather sheaths that appear to have had a strip of
                        bronze/brass folded over the edge only (not the back), and then
                        rivetted along the edge - eg. the tooled leather sheath found at York
                        (I believe this was found without the metal strip, but with holes and
                        markings suggesting rivets and a strip. There are more sources on
                        this type of thing - someone on this list must have them handy!).
                        This should not be a problem with a straight edge. The leather is
                        simply folded over the back of the blade. This would cause
                        difficulties with the angle towards the tip, but careful shaping,
                        soaking and stretching over the blade can sometimes overcome this -
                        otherwise, I'd probably take out a dart and edge-edge stitch it to
                        conceal the stitching (this is starting to enter the realms of
                        speculation rather than reconstruction ...).

                        The difficulty I found with my sheath is that the brass I used was
                        too thin and soft - the sheath bends too easily if I sit the wrong
                        way, and starts to develop wrinkles as a result of bending and being
                        bent back. This can be overcome by riveting multiple smaller strips
                        in a line instead of one long strip - the scabbard is therefore
                        flexible. I believe there is some evidence of this to the east, but
                        again, I concede that I do not have sufficient resources to hand.

                        ... And one other thing ... don't drill the holes in the brass strip
                        while the blade is in the sheath ...

                        Cheers
                        Michael B
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