Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Just joined - questions

Expand Messages
  • phil2co
    Gentlefolk I ve just joined this group. I live in Hertfordshire just outside London England and I belong to Angelcynn, a living history group specialising in
    Message 1 of 10 , Jun 1, 2003
    • 0 Attachment
      Gentlefolk

      I've just joined this group. I live in Hertfordshire just outside
      London England and I belong to Angelcynn, a living history group
      specialising in early Saxon period.

      I'm new to leatherwork but so far I've made 3 pairs of late Roman/
      early saxon open sandals and a pair of one piece turned shoes plus
      belts and a wallet for carrying tools etc when at an event.

      A few questions if you don't mind - sorry they're very basic but
      these are the problems I have at the moment.

      1. What sort of knot do you use to tie off thread when stitching?
      (I said they were basic) When I'm saddle stitching between two pieces
      I can hide my knots but on, say the back of a belt, they tend to be
      more obvious. I tie a basic reef knot but they come out a bit big and
      not terribly secure. A description of a knot or a link to picture(s)
      would be good.

      2. I tried decorative stitching on a belt - basically whip stitch
      down the edges - but my linen thread kept blooming - bits of stray
      fibre all over the place. I waxed the thread first (although perhaps
      not enough?) so any suggestions while I dont get a nice solid thread
      for my stitches?

      That's it for now.
      Cheers
      Phil
    • Ken Whapples
      Hi Phil, I ll try to answer your questions as best as I can ....... When I was taught at college to do belts you back stitch the last few stitches sometimes
      Message 2 of 10 , Jun 1, 2003
      • 0 Attachment
        Hi Phil,
         
        I'll try to answer your questions as best as I can ....... When I was taught at college to do belts you back stitch the last few stitches sometimes four or five times. You then then feed the last of the threat through a hole with your awl (Very carefully ! Never used knots in Saddlery old chum, wouldn't know how to tie them off either.
         
        I was told that there was not art to doing Saddlery. It's all about technique and practice.
         
        Sounds to my limited experience as though you didn't use enough wax. As I have found out recently, in shoe making / Soft leather items the techniques are very different.  
         
        I assume that "Whip Stitch" is something that the Americans use a lot of, which I think is over the top of the two ends.  ? 
         
        I was taught to use glass to fuse the edges together then use a Hard wood "Rubbing Stick" and sealent or glue / dye as it is sometimes called.
         
        I could show you if you were to go to Wychurst (Anglo-Saxon Village being constructed in a field 5 miles from Canterbury in Kent) in August.
         
        These I think are relatively modern techniques, but, they work. There seems to be little around on Anglo-Saxon Leatherwork and I believe the only book there seems to be is by Esther A, Cameron called "Sheaths and Scabbards in England AD400-1100.
         
        Hope this helps ? If I can help in any other way mate you can e-mail me off line and I'll do my best.
         
        westu hal,
         
        Ken 
      • T Goat
        I honestly don t know how period this is, but I stopped using knots almost as soon as I started making shoes, because they just don t wear well. Instead, I do
        Message 3 of 10 , Jun 1, 2003
        • 0 Attachment
          I honestly don't know how period this is, but I
          stopped using knots almost as soon as I started making
          shoes, because they just don't wear well. Instead, I
          do what I call 'overstitching,' which is to say I
          simply stitch a few holes past where I actually need
          to, and the tension keeps the thread from pulling.
          Twelve+ years later, it's still working.

          t

          --- phil2co <PhilCoates2002@...> wrote:
          > Gentlefolk
          >
          > I've just joined this group. I live in Hertfordshire
          > just outside
          > London England and I belong to Angelcynn, a living
          > history group
          > specialising in early Saxon period.
          >
          > I'm new to leatherwork but so far I've made 3 pairs
          > of late Roman/
          > early saxon open sandals and a pair of one piece
          > turned shoes plus
          > belts and a wallet for carrying tools etc when at an
          > event.
          >
          > A few questions if you don't mind - sorry they're
          > very basic but
          > these are the problems I have at the moment.
          >
          > 1. What sort of knot do you use to tie off thread
          > when stitching?
          > (I said they were basic) When I'm saddle stitching
          > between two pieces
          > I can hide my knots but on, say the back of a belt,
          > they tend to be
          > more obvious. I tie a basic reef knot but they come
          > out a bit big and
          > not terribly secure. A description of a knot or a
          > link to picture(s)
          > would be good.
          >
          > 2. I tried decorative stitching on a belt -
          > basically whip stitch
          > down the edges - but my linen thread kept blooming -
          > bits of stray
          > fibre all over the place. I waxed the thread first
          > (although perhaps
          > not enough?) so any suggestions while I dont get a
          > nice solid thread
          > for my stitches?
          >
          > That's it for now.
          > Cheers
          > Phil
          >
          >


          __________________________________
          Do you Yahoo!?
          Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM).
          http://calendar.yahoo.com
        • Ron Charlotte
          ... I don t generally knot. I nearly always backstitch 3-4 stitches. Stabbed awl holes will tighten down with a short passage of time, especially if you are
          Message 4 of 10 , Jun 1, 2003
          • 0 Attachment
            At 05:53 PM 6/1/03 +0000, Phil wrote:
            Gentlefolk

            I've just joined this group. I live in Hertfordshire just outside
            London England and I belong to Angelcynn, a living history group
            specialising in early Saxon period.

            I'm new to leatherwork but so far I've made 3 pairs of late Roman/
            early saxon open sandals and a pair of one piece turned shoes plus
            belts and a wallet for carrying tools etc when at an event.

            A few questions if you don't mind - sorry they're very basic but
            these are the problems I have at the moment.

            1.    What sort of knot do you use to tie off thread when stitching?
            (I said they were basic) When I'm saddle stitching between two pieces
            I can hide my knots but on, say the back of a belt, they tend to be
            more obvious. I tie a basic reef knot but they come out a bit big and
            not terribly secure. A description of a knot or a link to picture(s)
            would be good.

            I don't generally knot.  I nearly always backstitch 3-4 stitches.  Stabbed awl holes will tighten down with a short passage of time, especially if you are able to lightly tap the seam with a hammer.  The leather will also swell closed with the application of moisture, either by lightly wetting the piece (heavily handled pieces benefit from a wipedown with saddle soap or alcohol before the final sealers are applied), or the application of the final sealer.  The thicker the leather, the fewer back stitches are needed.  On low stress seams on 9-oz. or better leather, 2 backstitches are usually enough.   For a strap attachment, frequently 4-5 are required.

            There is a hidden knot technique where one creates an overhand knot with an extra loop (like the second pass of a "surgeon's knot) on a backstitch, followed by one last back stitch to tuck the ends. The actual knot gets pulled into the center of the layers of leather.  It's kind of hard to describe, I may see if I can do it with photography.  Once you actually _see_ it done, it's very easy to follow; it's just difficult to describe in text.  About the only  time I bother is for stuff that takes heavy abuse.


            2.   I tried decorative stitching on a belt - basically whip stitch
            down the edges - but my linen thread kept blooming - bits of stray
            fibre all over the place. I waxed the thread first (although perhaps
            not enough?) so any suggestions while I dont get a nice solid thread
            for my stitches?

            I use a 3 cord left twist linen made by Blue Mountain industries.  I ply it up when I need heavier cord.  This is a very firm thread, and I never have problems with fiber bloom.  I buy it unwaxed, and wax it with beeswax.  One trick that I have used to slick down waxed linen is to take a piece of light canvas and "burnish" the wax before you use it to sew.  This is normally done when sewing hair-on skins and leathers as it keeps the hairs from sticking to the wax as badly, but it might help with your bloom problem (especially if it's a handspun thread).  You may need to re-wax periodically as the sewing progresses.


                     Ron Charlotte -- Gainesville, FL
                     ronch2@... OR afn03234@...

          • Marc Carlson
            ... This sounds like a variation of the half cast stitch. There you take the thread coming out of the hole and run it around the loop going in to the hole
            Message 5 of 10 , Jun 1, 2003
            • 0 Attachment
              --- In medieval-leather@yahoogroups.com, Ron Charlotte <ronch2@b...>
              wrote:
              > There is a hidden knot technique where one creates an overhand knot
              > with an extra loop (like the second pass of a "surgeon's knot) on a
              > backstitch, followed by one last back stitch to tuck the ends. The
              > actual knot gets pulled into the center of the layers of leather.
              > It's kind of hard to describe, I may see if I can do it with
              > photography. Once you actually _see_ it done, it's very easy to
              > follow; it's just difficult to describe in text. About the only
              > time I bother is for stuff that takes heavy abuse.

              This sounds like a variation of the "half cast" stitch. There you
              take the thread coming out of the hole and run it around the loop
              going in to the hole (obviously while doing a saddle/shoemaking
              stitch), creating half of a square knot inside the hole. If you do
              this on both sides of a hole, I -think- it's called a full cast
              stitch, and if you do it for the last few stitches of a seam, you
              don't need to back stitch.

              Back stitching's good though.

              Marc
            • phil2co
              Great. Thanks to everyone who s replied. I m going to learn lots from you all. I ll go away and practice. Phil
              Message 6 of 10 , Jun 2, 2003
              • 0 Attachment
                Great. Thanks to everyone who's replied. I'm going to learn lots from
                you all. I'll go away and practice.

                Phil
              • Katie Kilgallon
                Please leave me along _________________________________________________________________ Use MSN Messenger to send music and pics to your friends
                Message 7 of 10 , Jun 2, 2003
                • 0 Attachment
                  Please leave me along

                  _________________________________________________________________
                  Use MSN Messenger to send music and pics to your friends
                  http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger
                • Katie Kilgallon
                  Please i joined by mistake leanve me alone _________________________________________________________________ It s fast, it s easy and it s free. Get MSN
                  Message 8 of 10 , Jun 2, 2003
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Please i joined by mistake leanve me alone

                    _________________________________________________________________
                    It's fast, it's easy and it's free. Get MSN Messenger today!
                    http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger
                  • rmhowe
                    ... I agree. ... It s about getting the weight off the spine and onto the ribs. Never bother to track down Waterer s History of Saddles. It s a 12 page
                    Message 9 of 10 , Jun 10, 2003
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Ken Whapples wrote:
                      > Hi Phil,
                      >
                      > I'll try to answer your questions as best as I can ....... When I was
                      > taught at college to do belts you back stitch the last few stitches
                      > sometimes four or five times. You then then feed the last of the threat
                      > through a hole with your awl (Very carefully ! Never used knots in
                      > Saddlery old chum, wouldn't know how to tie them off either.

                      I agree.

                      >
                      > I was told that there was not art to doing Saddlery. It's all about
                      > technique and practice.

                      It's about getting the weight off the spine and onto the ribs.
                      Never bother to track down Waterer's History of Saddles.
                      It's a 12 page pamphlet and has little to offer. I've done it.
                      Hrothgar has a number of sources for Viking and pre-Viking saddle
                      reconstructions. I'd ask him. Don't know of any Saxon saddles
                      myself. I would presume the horse would need some kind to ride one.
                      Maybe one of the Roman Saddle reconstructions by Connoly would do.

                      > Sounds to my limited experience as though you didn't use enough wax. As
                      > I have found out recently, in shoe making / Soft leather items the
                      > techniques are very different.
                      >
                      > I assume that "Whip Stitch" is something that the Americans use a lot
                      > of, which I think is over the top of the two ends. ?

                      When I was a kid in 50's America everything was cowboys. Especially
                      the movies - them what weren't musicals that is - Oh, yeah, Oklahoma.
                      [The guy who played Curly was my sister's voice teacher, until he
                      killed a 16 year old he'd been having sex with that tried to
                      blackmail him. Didn't work out too well for Curly. The Curly in
                      the original Broadway musical.]

                      > I was taught to use glass to fuse the edges together then use a Hard
                      > wood "Rubbing Stick" and sealent or glue / dye as it is sometimes called.

                      Saint Hugh's Bones. See the Footwear of the Middle Ages
                      site by Marc Carlson. Attached to this page:
                      http://www.personal.utulsa.edu/~marc-carlson/
                      Mostly uses other people's work, but useful to
                      reenactors.

                      See also:
                      medieval-leather@egroups.com group
                      can also be read and post group messages to on the web
                      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/medieval-leather/ 10/02

                      > I could show you if you were to go to Wychurst (Anglo-Saxon Village
                      > being constructed in a field 5 miles from Canterbury in Kent) in August.

                      That looked more like the middle of a sand-lapper's pine forest to me.
                      Eastern Norht Carolina has a sand based ground, very flat, tons of Pine
                      Trees. Dwellers thereon are called Sandlappers. Kinda the opposite of
                      Mountain Dwelling Hicks. Either way, there are a lot of Scots-Irish.

                      > These I think are relatively modern techniques, but, they work. There
                      > seems to be little around on Anglo-Saxon Leatherwork and I believe the
                      > only book there seems to be is by Esther A, Cameron called "Sheaths and
                      > Scabbards in England AD400-1100.

                      Cameron, Esther A.: Sheaths and Scabbards in England AD 400-1100,
                      2000, Archaeopress, Oxford, England, ISBN 1841710652.
                      Also
                      Leather and Fur by her. About two years earlier.
                      One difference in the timeline between early and later Saxons
                      is the demise of the English Beaver.
                      The only survival of which in England is the Sutton Hoo Lyre bag.
                      But it may well have been imported. Article in the above.
                      Cameron, Esther: Leather and Fur; Archetype Publications for
                      the Archaeological Leather Group, 1998 x 101p. Paperback,
                      ISBN: 1873132514
                      “A collection of papers on two key commodities whose
                      importance for early medieval trade and craft is often
                      masked by the lack of organics surviving in the archaeological
                      record.”
                      Contents:
                      Leather working processes by Roy Thomson;
                      Hides, Horns and Bones by Arthur MacGregor;
                      The search for Anglo-Saxon skin garments and the documentary
                      evidence by Gale Owen-Crocker);
                      Pre-conquest leather on English book-bindings, arms and armour
                      AD 400-1100 by Esther Cameron;
                      The leather finds from Rouen and Saint-Denis by Véronique Motembault;
                      Trading in fur, from classical antiquity to the early Middle
                      Ages by James Howard-Johnston);
                      Animal bones from the Viking town of Birka, Sweden by Bengt Wigh;
                      The British beaver: Fur, fact and fantasy (James Spriggs).
                      £ 16.50 (approx. US$ 23.89) plus shipping.

                      St. Cuthbert's satchel and book are the earliest survivals of
                      leather satchel and book work we have from Great Britain in a
                      surviving state, other than shoes a bronze age shield or two
                      and a mold and odd bits. Due to the uncertain provenances no
                      one I know has put a believable date on the Irish shoes, which
                      is one thing they out-classed everyone else in the design of.
                      Theory is they were only worn in church though, barefoot else,
                      but they have very peculiar sock-tops, no bottoms, and it
                      takes up the majority of the article about the shoes.

                      Lucas, A.T.: Footwear in Ireland; Journal of the Archaeological
                      Society of County Louth, Vol. XIII, Number. 4, pp.309-94,
                      (a lot of which involves making a sock style peculiar to the
                      Irish) 1956. (Boston College - O'Neill Library) Very pretty
                      patterns for Irish Shoes. Also discussed in Hald, and a few
                      other places. Should be at least one on the Footwear webpages.

                      Hald, Margrethe: Primitive Shoes, An Archaeological-Ethnological Study
                      based upon Shoe Finds from the Jutland Peninsula; (Covers also
                      Eng.(York), Scotland, Faeroes, Ireland, Norway, Sweden, Finland,
                      Aaland, Estonia, Norway, and Iceland). National Museum of Denmark,
                      Copenhagen 1972. Publications of the National Museum
                      Archaeological-Historical Series I Vol. XIII, Printed by Bianco
                      Lunos Bogtrykkeri A/S, Copenhagen Copyright by the National Museum,
                      Copenhagen 1972, ISBN 87-480-7282-6

                      John W. Waterer: ‘Irish Book-Satchels or Budgets’;
                      Medieval Archaeology vol. 12, 1968, pp. 70-82.

                      John W. Waterer: Leather in Singer: History of Technology II.

                      For those who want embroidery on their shoes:
                      Larsen, Arne J.; Footwear from the Gullskoen Area of Bryggen,
                      The Bryggen Papers Main Series, Vol. 4; Scandinavian University
                      Press, University of Bergen 1992. ISBN 82-00-21533-4,
                      Scandinavian University Press, P.O. Box 2959 Toyen, N-O608
                      Oslo, Norway. Bryggen is the German Wharf in Bergen, the old
                      capital of Norway. Eleventh to early sixteenth century with
                      embroidery on some of the shoes.

                      This one I recently bought after a four year search:
                      Buckley, J.J.: Some Early Ornamented Leatherwork. Journal of the Royal
                      Society of Antiquaries of Ireland vol. XLV, part IV, 1915. pp.300-309
                      (Cumdachs and Polaires: Medieval Irish Book Shrines and Book Satchels)
                      Well Illustrated with a number of plates.
                      The journal of the Royal Society of antiquaries of Ireland. Series VI,
                      Vol. V. Vol. XLV, part IV. 31 December 1915: Hodges, Figgis & Co. 1915
                      . Includes articles 'Prehistoric remains (forts and dolmens) in Burren
                      and its south-western, Co. Clare', 'The Normans in Tirowen and
                      Tirconnell' and 'Some early ornamented leatherwork'. p.b. 80 pp.
                      It discusses laws using other people's oak bark for tanning shoes,
                      and also mentions using sour milk and smoke to tan with.

                      Magnus

                      > Hope this helps ? If I can help in any other way mate you can e-mail me
                      > off line and I'll do my best.
                      >
                      > westu hal,
                      >
                      > Ken
                    • Ken Whapples
                      Hi Magnus, Thanks for the input. I was lost it on the Cowboys bit though ! A Saxon Saddle - I think not ! (Far too ambitious), I have only been taught to make
                      Message 10 of 10 , Jun 10, 2003
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Hi Magnus,
                         
                        Thanks for the input. I was lost it on the Cowboys bit though ! A Saxon Saddle - I think not ! (Far too ambitious), I have only been taught to make straps / Bridle parts. I am trying to get back to the College in September as a wrinkly Student (Not so much 'Mature' as 'Ripe' :o ) ).
                         
                        I'll plough through the stuff that I have and see if I can get some of it printed. I can then follow it, when this ancient heap of a machine crashes yet again. (Can't get the right type of Hamster to power it up :o ) ).
                         
                        Any info is always appreciated.
                         
                        Thanks again mate,
                         
                        Ken
                      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.