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Re: Venetian Footwear

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  • absynthe30
    Thanks Ahungus (interesting spelling for that name BTW... my current persona is from co. Cork - not that far from Dublin :-)) I went to a leather shop in the
    Message 1 of 9 , Mar 8, 2003
      Thanks Ahungus (interesting spelling for that name BTW... my current
      persona is from co. Cork - not that far from Dublin :-))
      I went to a leather shop in the region, and talked to the right
      person it seems, he has done several historical shoes as well, and
      had a curved awl, only down side is that it's not fitted into a
      handle, I'll have to make one of my own, but at least I have
      something. As a matter of general interest, particularly to you being
      from Dublin, he gave me a site
      http://moesgaard.hum.au.dk/moesgaard/index.php that apparently has
      several viking boot patterns on their site, however, I don't know
      Danish well enough to navigate it. I ran a translator on the site and
      got a vague notion of what was said. Sadly not enough to find what he
      was talking about. If you find something useful, like a Dane perhaps,
      let me know. :-)I would really like to see those patterns.
      Im working my way up slowly in my list of tools and general goodies,
      the awl of course being a basic thing, along with a couple of punch
      dies, etc etc. The rest is found objects in the workshop mangled
      sufficiently to accomplish the task at hand. Im a touchy-feely kind
      of person ;-) and prefer to shop in person for my yardages.. tools...
      I don't think I'll be terribly surprised with those. As time goes on,
      assuming I get a little TOO interested in making my own shoes, I'm
      sure I'll start getting the right items (husband willing!). Thanks a
      lot for the link.

      Slainte

      Caitlin O'Duibhir/Salvatrice D'este

      --- In medieval-leather@yahoogroups.com, Fred Frontino
      <fredlyfx@y...> wrote:
      >
      > Hi Dela, Try going to this web site for all your leather & tool
      needs. http://leatherfactory.com/ I live about 30 miles from one of
      their stores and make a visit every other month or so. Of course I'm
      usually buying water buffalo hides for armor, but they have
      everything you could imagine for leather work, and some pretty nice
      people too. I know they ship also. I would recommend one of their
      starter kits as they usually have lots of great tools for a big
      discount over what it would cost separate. No I don't work for them
      or anything, I just buy a lot of stuff there.
      >
      > Have fun
      >
      > Ahungus MacAlpin, King of Dublin Seaport
      >
      >
      > absynthe30 <absynthe30@y...> wrote: Hi... I'm new here - and to
      shoemaking. Right now I'm working on
      > making a pair of Italian scarpe and Venetian Zoccoli(chopines). The
      > scarpe I am using the Spanish "San Juan/Red Bay" pattern from
      Mark's
      > site (Thank you for posting such WONDERFUL patterns and useful
      > information! This is my second pair of shoes from your collection!)
      > with a few minor changes to make them more geographically right
      (well,
      > based on a few vaguely educated guesses).
      > I have limited tools, finding a curved awl is a new experience in
      > torture locally, nor do I know a more local leather craftsman to me
      > (Southwestern Ontario, Canada). So, I am fumbling along merrily,
      > teaching myself. My burning question is, what stitches does
      everyone
      > reccomend to attach the uppers on a zoccoli/chopine? The research I
      > have done so far suggests that the cork is covered in leather to
      > prevent compression, so there is SOMETHING to stitch to, but, how
      on
      > EARTH would I accomplish a turnshoe seam, or would I at all? How
      > would a soak such a beast having dyed silk velvet attached to it?
      > What about the sole, would I nail it, or tunnel stitch it on? Since
      > the greater majority of these shoes are fabric rather than leather,
      > or combinations thereof, things like stretch issues are different.
      > Fabric, I understand. Leather, is a whole new beast to me.
      > The list in which I am also a member of, has some useful
      > archeological papers dealing with the chopine, and I have been to
      the
      > Bata Shoe Museum for photos of the chopine they have on exhibition
      > there. (Incidentally, I contacted them about the San Juan/Red Bay
      > shoe, and they indeed have one on loan from Parks Canada in a
      current
      > exhibition. A staff member is trying to locate a photograph on
      their
      > server for me and trying to locate the Parks Canada curator in
      charge
      > of the San Juan maritime excavation, hoping that perhaps he has
      more
      > to add to the already published documentation. Or, at least put
      what
      > IS published into terms that doesn't make my brain hurt.) So you
      have
      > reference, here is my photos from my trip to the Museum, I posted
      as
      > large as I could to show all the detail I was able.
      >
      http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/courtesan/lst?.dir=/Page&.src=gr&
      > .order=&.view=t&.done=http%3a//briefcase.yahoo.com/
      >
      > If for whatever reason this link doesn't work, go to
      > http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/Courtesan/lst, and my folder
      > is "Page".
      > The translated archeological file someone else posted is at:
      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Courtesan/files/Chopines%
      > 20too/chopine.pdf
      > Again, if that link doesn't work, go to
      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Courtesan/files/, file
      folder "chopines
      > too", the .pdf file at the top.
      > I'd really appreciate the help with this. I'm quite new to this
      > period of fashion, and can use all the help I can get.
      >
      > Thanks so much,
      >
      > Della Signora Salvatrice D'este, Honorate Cortigiane
      > MKA Page Jacques
      >
      >
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    • Marc Carlson
      ... wrote: Hello Page, I m glad you like the pages. Some day I hope to get them fully updated. Just to let you know, there is no reason to
      Message 2 of 9 , Mar 8, 2003
        --- In medieval-leather@yahoogroups.com, "absynthe30"
        <absynthe30@y...> wrote:
        Hello Page, I'm glad you like the pages. Some day I hope to get them
        fully updated.

        Just to let you know, there is no reason to assume you HAVE to use a
        curved awl. I'm not saying you shouldn't, but the evidence (as weak
        as it is) suggests that the shoemakers then didn't use them. They
        don't appear in the archaeology (unequivocally) until after 1600.

        Straight round awls are about all I use anymore for the historical
        shoes I make. They just need to be *sharp*.

        Marc
      • absynthe30
        Hi Marc, I know how much work it is to keep up on a site. I m constantly adding to mine. I am finally getting around to adding a photo album of my costuming,
        Message 3 of 9 , Mar 8, 2003
          Hi Marc, I know how much work it is to keep up on a site. I'm
          constantly adding to mine. I am finally getting around to adding a
          photo album of my costuming, which will take time to scan in all the
          originals.

          Thanks for that bit of info. I am not *quite* as diehard about period
          perfection as you likely are, I don't care how I get to the end
          result, as long as it's REALLY convincing! And well, fairly painless
          to brain and body. The period I am working on is 1575, a bit of a
          squeak, but could be argued either way.

          Thanks again,
          Page

          --- In medieval-leather@yahoogroups.com, "Marc Carlson"
          <marccarlson20@h...> wrote:
          > --- In medieval-leather@yahoogroups.com, "absynthe30"
          > <absynthe30@y...> wrote:
          > Hello Page, I'm glad you like the pages. Some day I hope to get
          them
          > fully updated.
          >
          > Just to let you know, there is no reason to assume you HAVE to use
          a
          > curved awl. I'm not saying you shouldn't, but the evidence (as
          weak
          > as it is) suggests that the shoemakers then didn't use them. They
          > don't appear in the archaeology (unequivocally) until after 1600.
          >
          > Straight round awls are about all I use anymore for the historical
          > shoes I make. They just need to be *sharp*.
          >
          > Marc
        • Marc Carlson
          ... That s ok, I was just suggesting it since it might be a bit easier to find a straight awl. Marc
          Message 4 of 9 , Mar 9, 2003
            --- In medieval-leather@yahoogroups.com, "absynthe30"
            <absynthe30@y...> wrote:
            > Thanks for that bit of info. I am not *quite* as diehard about
            > period perfection as you likely are, I don't care how I get to the
            > end result, as long as it's REALLY convincing!...

            That's ok, I was just suggesting it since it might be a bit easier to
            find a straight awl.

            Marc
          • absynthe30
            ... to ... Oh I m sure it is. I remember seeing a couple on the wall of the shop. But I have the curved now (sans handle), and even rummaged up an iron last
            Message 5 of 9 , Mar 9, 2003
              >
              > That's ok, I was just suggesting it since it might be a bit easier
              to
              > find a straight awl.
              >
              > Marc

              Oh I'm sure it is. I remember seeing a couple on the wall of the
              shop. But I have the curved now (sans handle), and even rummaged up
              an iron last from the antique shop. It may not be bang on perfect to
              the shape in the shoe, but it's something to push up against while
              stitching. Gotta work my way up from somewhere. :-)

              Page
            • Marc Carlson
              ... Sounds great. (Just a thought - you weren t planning on using vegetable tanned leather were you? Wet vegetable tanned leather and iron just don t work
              Message 6 of 9 , Mar 10, 2003
                --- In medieval-leather@yahoogroups.com, "absynthe30"
                <absynthe30@y...> wrote:
                > Oh I'm sure it is. I remember seeing a couple on the wall of the
                > shop. But I have the curved now (sans handle), and even rummaged up
                > an iron last from the antique shop. It may not be bang on perfect to
                > the shape in the shoe, but it's something to push up against while
                > stitching. Gotta work my way up from somewhere. :-)

                Sounds great. (Just a thought - you weren't planning on using
                vegetable tanned leather were you? Wet vegetable tanned leather and
                iron just don't work well together)

                Ok, if you can find a handle: get a clamp, and two pennies. Sandwich
                the curved blade between the coind and then stick them in the clamp
                (so the clamp is holding onto the pennies, and not the awl blade.
                Then stick the handle on the other long pointy end of the awl and
                carefully tap it into place. If you can off set the blade just a
                little, so that the sharp point of the awl blade is on the center line
                of the handle, it does make the thing a little easier to work with
                (for a picture, go to
                http://www.personal.utulsa.edu/~marc-carlson/shoe/RESEARCH/GLOSSARY/bdefa.htm
                - see "Awl" #3.)

                Or see if you can find one of those replaceable blade handles. You
                lose the benefit of the offset blade, but you get to replace your
                blade easier.

                Marc
              • absynthe30
                ... 90% of the shoes being made are fabric (silk velvet [chopine] and upholstery brocade [pump]), the vegetable-dyed leather being used for outsoles and
                Message 7 of 9 , Mar 10, 2003
                  > Sounds great. (Just a thought - you weren't planning on using
                  > vegetable tanned leather were you? Wet vegetable tanned leather and
                  > iron just don't work well together)

                  90% of the shoes being made are fabric (silk velvet [chopine] and
                  upholstery brocade [pump]), the vegetable-dyed leather being used for
                  outsoles and insoles. I have some white, cheap cheap midweight
                  leather that I'm using for things like vamp support and centres, so
                  they won't be seen and is chemical cured, painted with acrylic. (If I
                  have enough, I might make a pair of tagliate a pezzi ["cut to bits"]
                  pumps, just for the fun of punching my leather full of holes.)
                  >
                  > Ok, if you can find a handle: get a clamp, and two pennies.
                  Sandwich
                  > the curved blade between the coind and then stick them in the clamp
                  > (so the clamp is holding onto the pennies, and not the awl blade.
                  > Then stick the handle on the other long pointy end of the awl and
                  > carefully tap it into place. If you can off set the blade just a
                  > little, so that the sharp point of the awl blade is on the center
                  line
                  > of the handle, it does make the thing a little easier to work with
                  > (for a picture, go to
                  > http://www.personal.utulsa.edu/~marc-
                  carlson/shoe/RESEARCH/GLOSSARY/bdefa.htm
                  > - see "Awl" #3.)
                  >
                  > Or see if you can find one of those replaceable blade handles. You
                  > lose the benefit of the offset blade, but you get to replace your
                  > blade easier.
                  >
                  > Marc

                  Thanks for the advice! I was wondering how I was going to mount this
                  thing....

                  Page
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