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Gum Ammoniac Quandery

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  • Sharon Smith Hurlburt
    O.K., I seem to have a problem. I m trying to get a quiver done for a friend of mine & I d like it to be done by this Saturday, as she is getting her laurel
    Message 1 of 10 , Feb 28, 2002
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      O.K., I seem to have a problem. I'm trying to get a quiver done for a
      friend of mine & I'd like it to be done by this Saturday, as she is getting
      her laurel (for the non-SCAdians- this is a really big deal). I don't make
      quivers very often. In fact, I think this may only be my second one. She
      wants the design gold leafed. I finished the bow case that goes with the
      quiver & it was fine. However, the gum ammoniac is not sticky on the
      quiver. At all. It's really weird. Is there something I should be doing
      to the leather before I put down the gum? Is it maybe soaking into the
      leather or something & that's why it's not sticking? I'm really puzzled.
      I haven't done much leafing at all so I'm a little out of my element. Any
      ideas?

      Thanks!

      Morwenna,
      who *hates* quivers........



      I know we can never be truly safe, so I would rather be free.

      "Gonads are perfectly good for their use, but they are no substitute for
      brains"
      -heard on FM-90 out of London
    • Adam Smith
      I suspect your size (the gum ammoniac I assume) is indeed soaking into the leather. Whenever I ve gilded something I also use an undercoat of chinese red
      Message 2 of 10 , Mar 1, 2002
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        I suspect your size (the gum ammoniac I assume) is indeed soaking into the leather. Whenever I've gilded something I also use an undercoat of chinese red acrylic to provide a contrast colour where the leaf wears thin. This also seals the leather nicely, preventing any soak-through of the size. Any sort of acrylic paint will do (like Cova dye) as long as it's thinned enough not to obscure any carved detail.
         
        Good luck! (by Saturday?! you're going to need the luck ;-).
        Adam
         
        Sword in the Stone Crafts -- Fine Leathercrafts and more for the new renaissance
        http://welcome.to/SwordintheStoneCrafts
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Friday, March 01, 2002 1:41 AM
        Subject: [medieval-leather] Gum Ammoniac Quandery

        O.K., I seem to have a problem.  I'm trying to get a quiver done for a
        friend of mine & I'd like it to be done by this Saturday, as she is getting
        her laurel (for the non-SCAdians- this is a really big deal).  I don't make
        quivers very often.  In fact, I think this may only be my second one.  She
        wants the design gold leafed.  I finished the bow case that goes with the
        quiver & it was fine.  However, the gum ammoniac is not sticky on the
        quiver.  At all.  It's really weird.  Is there something I should be doing
        to the leather before I put down the gum?  Is it maybe soaking into the
        leather or something & that's why it's not sticking?  I'm really puzzled.
        I haven't done much leafing at all so I'm a little out of my element.  Any
        ideas?

        Thanks!

        Morwenna,
        who *hates* quivers........



        I know we can never be truly safe, so I would rather be free.

        "Gonads are perfectly good for their use, but they are no substitute for
        brains"
        -heard on FM-90 out of London


        Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
      • Scott Szakonyi
        You could also use a clear acrylic leather finish, like Resolene. Scott www.thevikingtrader.net Adam Smith wrote: I suspect your size (the gum
        Message 3 of 10 , Mar 1, 2002
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           You could also use a clear acrylic leather finish, like Resolene.

          Scott
          www.thevikingtrader.net

            Adam Smith <spike@...> wrote:

          I suspect your size (the gum ammoniac I assume) is indeed soaking into the leather. Whenever I've gilded something I also use an undercoat of chinese red acrylic to provide a contrast colour where the leaf wears thin. This also seals the leather nicely, preventing any soak-through of the size. Any sort of acrylic paint will do (like Cova dye) as long as it's thinned enough not to obscure any carved detail.
           
          Good luck! (by Saturday?! you're going to need the luck ;-).
          Adam
           
          Sword in the Stone Crafts -- Fine Leathercrafts and more for the new renaissance
          http://welcome.to/SwordintheStoneCrafts
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Friday, March 01, 2002 1:41 AM
          Subject: [medieval-leather] Gum Ammoniac Quandery

          O.K., I seem to have a problem.  I'm trying to get a quiver done for a
          friend of mine & I'd like it to be done by this Saturday, as she is getting
          her laurel (for the non-SCAdians- this is a really big deal).  I don't make
          quivers very often.  In fact, I think this may only be my second one.  She
          wants the design gold leafed.  I finished the bow case that goes with the
          quiver & it was fine.  However, the gum ammoniac is not sticky on the
          quiver.  At all.  It's really weird.  Is there something I should be doing
          to the leather before I put down the gum?  Is it maybe soaking into the
          leather or something & that's why it's not sticking?  I'm really puzzled.
          I haven't done much leafing at all so I'm a little out of my element.  Any
          ideas?

          Thanks!

          Morwenna,
          who *hates* quivers........



          I know we can never be truly safe, so I would rather be free.

          "Gonads are perfectly good for their use, but they are no substitute for
          brains"
          -heard on FM-90 out of London


          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



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        • Sharon Smith Hurlburt
          ... The bowcase that I m also gilding already had the finish coat on it & it worked fine (it was actually done once- and then I learned what happens to
          Message 4 of 10 , Mar 1, 2002
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            >From: "Adam Smith" <spike@...>
            >Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 08:56:17 -0500
            >
            >I suspect your size (the gum ammoniac I assume) is indeed soaking into the
            >leather. Whenever I've gilded something I also use an undercoat of chinese
            >red acrylic to provide a contrast colour where the leaf wears thin. This
            >also seals the leather nicely, preventing any soak-through of the size. Any
            >sort of acrylic paint will do (like Cova dye) as long as it's thinned
            >enough not to obscure any carved detail.
            >

            The bowcase that I'm also gilding already had the finish coat on it & it
            worked fine (it was actually done once- and then I learned what happens to
            composite leaf on leather. A painful lesson, I must admit, but not one I'm
            likely to forget ever. I'm using teh real stuff this time) so I was
            thinking that might have been the problem.


            >Good luck! (by Saturday?! you're going to need the luck ;-).

            I've been working on the piece for quite some time now, but I've run into
            just about every problem I can think of. It's an odd pattern (12th Century
            Mongolian, which I'm recreating from a painting) so it took much longer than
            I thought just to figure out the bottom part & get all the holes punched.
            And then after I formed it, it took days to dry, even sitting in front of a
            heater (the bow case didn't take more than a couple of hours). I'd hoped to
            have the thing done last Sunday. AT least I have most of tonight to work on
            it. But I've resigned myself that it really won't be a fully finished
            condition by Saturday & have let her know, but it will at least be wearable.

            Sharon/Morwenna,
            who is starting to hate gold leaf, too......


            >Adam
            >
            >Sword in the Stone Crafts -- Fine Leathercrafts and more for the new
            >renaissance
            >http://welcome.to/SwordintheStoneCrafts
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: Sharon Smith Hurlburt
            > To: medieval-leather@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Friday, March 01, 2002 1:41 AM
            > Subject: [medieval-leather] Gum Ammoniac Quandery
            >
            >
            > O.K., I seem to have a problem. I'm trying to get a quiver done for a
            > friend of mine & I'd like it to be done by this Saturday, as she is
            >getting
            > her laurel (for the non-SCAdians- this is a really big deal). I don't
            >make
            > quivers very often. In fact, I think this may only be my second one.
            >She
            > wants the design gold leafed. I finished the bow case that goes with
            >the
            > quiver & it was fine. However, the gum ammoniac is not sticky on the
            > quiver. At all. It's really weird. Is there something I should be
            >doing
            > to the leather before I put down the gum? Is it maybe soaking into the
            > leather or something & that's why it's not sticking? I'm really
            >puzzled.
            > I haven't done much leafing at all so I'm a little out of my element.
            >Any
            > ideas?
            >
            > Thanks!
            >
            > Morwenna,
            > who *hates* quivers........
            >
            >
            >
            > I know we can never be truly safe, so I would rather be free.
            >
            > "Gonads are perfectly good for their use, but they are no substitute for
            > brains"
            > -heard on FM-90 out of London
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
            > ADVERTISEMENT
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
            >


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          • Adam Smith
            ... Odd... I ve never had a problem with the alloy stuff, as long as I gave it a top coat of something so it wouldn t tarnish. ... Gee, I ve got a quiver
            Message 5 of 10 , Mar 1, 2002
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              >worked fine (it was actually done
              once- and then I learned what happens to
              >composite leaf on
              leather.  A painful lesson, I must admit, but not one I'm
              >likely to
              forget ever.  I'm using teh real stuff this time) so I was
              >thinking
              that might have been the problem.
               
              Odd... I've never had a problem with the alloy stuff, as long as I gave it a top coat of something so it wouldn't tarnish.

              >Mongolian, which I'm recreating from a
              painting) so it took much longer than
              >I thought just to figure out the
              bottom part & get all the holes punched
               
              Gee, I've got a quiver sitting in the corner of the studio without anything in the bottom... been there for a coupla years now ;-). I understand your pain.
               
              cheers,
              Adam
            • Sharon Smith Hurlburt
              ... Probably I ll use the same polyurethane finish I use as a finishing coat on my leather pieces. I already know what it does & I already have some. :)
              Message 6 of 10 , Mar 1, 2002
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                At 06:09 AM 03/01/2002 -0800, you wrote:

                 You could also use a clear acrylic leather finish, like Resolene.

                Scott
                www.thevikingtrader.net


                Probably I'll use the same polyurethane finish I use as a finishing coat on my leather pieces. I already know what it does & I already have some.  :)

                Sharon/Morwenna



                I know we can never be truly safe, so I would rather be free.

                "Gonads are perfectly good for their use, but they are no substitute for brains"
                -heard on FM-90 out of London
              • Sharon Smith Hurlburt
                ... It didn t tarnish at all- and I d put a really good several coats of finish on it to make sure that didn t happen. What it did was turn green. The
                Message 7 of 10 , Mar 1, 2002
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                  At 09:19 AM 03/01/2002 -0500, you wrote:

                  >worked fine (it was actually done once- and then I learned what happens to
                  >composite leaf on leather.  A painful lesson, I must admit, but not one I'm
                  >likely to forget ever.  I'm using teh real stuff this time) so I was
                  >thinking that might have been the problem.
                   
                  Odd... I've never had a problem with the alloy stuff, as long as I gave it a top coat of something so it wouldn't tarnish.

                  It didn't tarnish at all- and I'd put a really good several coats of finish on it to make sure that didn't happen.  What it did was turn green.  The tannins in the leather reacted with the brass.  Maybe if you're sealing yours first it's taking longer for the tannins to get through or they won't get through at all, but for my part I don't think it's worth the risk of having to deal with that again.



                  >Mongolian, which I'm recreating from a painting) so it took much longer than
                  >I thought just to figure out the bottom part & get all the holes punched
                   
                  Gee, I've got a quiver sitting in the corner of the studio without anything in the bottom... been there for a coupla years now ;-). I understand your pain.
                   

                  Literal pain, too.  My hands started hurting so bad that I had to ask my husband to widen up all my holes because they weren't big enough to get my needle through.  Fortunately, I'm married to a wonderful guy who's willing to help his wife with her insane projects.  And he's really strong, too.  :)

                  Sharon/Morwenna,
                  who should head back to work now.....



                  I know we can never be truly safe, so I would rather be free.

                  "Gonads are perfectly good for their use, but they are no substitute for brains"
                  -heard on FM-90 out of London
                • Phlip
                  ... What are you using to make your holes? Punching with an awl is a pain, as are trying to use those worthless plier-type rotary punches. I ve found,
                  Message 8 of 10 , Mar 1, 2002
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                    Sharon Smith Hurlburt wrote:

                    > Literal pain, too. My hands started hurting so bad that I had to ask
                    > my husband to widen up all my holes because they weren't big enough to
                    > get my needle through. Fortunately, I'm married to a wonderful guy
                    > who's willing to help his wife with her insane projects. And he's
                    > really strong, too. :)

                    What are you using to make your holes? Punching with an awl is a pain,
                    as are trying to use those worthless plier-type rotary punches. I've
                    found, depending on the project, that using either the lacing punches,
                    single and/or multiple prong, or the interchangeable-head round punches
                    (depending on what I'm lacing or sewing with) will allow you to punch
                    zillions of holes with minimal hand stress- the hammer does all the work
                    ;-). If you need smaller slits than the usual lacing punches provide,
                    there's nothing wrong with buying (or making) one for the purpose, and
                    filing it down to the size you want.

                    Phlip
                  • Sharon Smith Hurlburt
                    ... Normally, I use a stitching fork, which is what I used to sew up the side of the quiver. The holes had an odd spacing on the bottom though, since the
                    Message 9 of 10 , Mar 2, 2002
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                      At 03:45 PM 03/01/2002 -0500, you wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      >Sharon Smith Hurlburt wrote:
                      >
                      >> Literal pain, too. My hands started hurting so bad that I had to ask
                      >> my husband to widen up all my holes because they weren't big enough to
                      >> get my needle through. Fortunately, I'm married to a wonderful guy
                      >> who's willing to help his wife with her insane projects. And he's
                      >> really strong, too. :)
                      >
                      >What are you using to make your holes? Punching with an awl is a pain,
                      >as are trying to use those worthless plier-type rotary punches.

                      Normally, I use a stitching fork, which is what I used to sew up the side
                      of the quiver. The holes had an odd spacing on the bottom though, since
                      the outside holes had to be spaced a little further apart on the outside
                      piece than the inside (bottom) piece. I couldn't use the fork on the
                      bottom piece because it was oval shaped & I didn't want to use the fork on
                      the outside because that would have made the inside holes too close
                      together. So, for those I used the awl.

                      Sharon/Morwenna,
                      who did actually get the quiver done....



                      I know we can never be truly safe, so I would rather be free.

                      "Gonads are perfectly good for their use, but they are no substitute for
                      brains"
                      -heard on FM-90 out of London
                    • dunnydeer
                      For making holes I ve used an excellent tool from the dental profession. I don t know the name of the tool; it is what they use when making holes in rubber
                      Message 10 of 10 , Mar 2, 2002
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                        For making holes I've used an excellent tool from the dental
                        profession. I don't know the name of the tool; it is what they
                        use when making holes in rubber dams that they put over your tooth
                        and mouth just before that whine begins to resound in your ears.

                        It looks like a pair of pliers. There is a pointed punch on one
                        end and it mates with (on mine) one of 5 holes in an anvil which
                        rotates to bring the hole underneath the punch.

                        The holes range in size from approx. 1/32 - 1/8 inches. I haven't
                        used it on leather, but have used it on some fairly thick parchment.

                        Jack


                        --- In medieval-leather@y..., Phlip <phlip@9...> wrote:
                        (snip)

                        > What are you using to make your holes? Punching with an awl is a pain,
                        > as are trying to use those worthless plier-type rotary punches.
                        (snip)
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