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Re: Re: [medieval-leather] Non SCA contingent

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  • Adam Smith
    ... Then you re a lucky man, Tim. I ll be quick to agree with Marc and say my statements were *not* meant to bash SCA in general. I had a lot of fun and
    Message 1 of 19 , Aug 1, 2001
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      > >Well, that needed to be said. Personally, it's the
      > >"authenticity police" that drove me away more than
      > >anything.
      >
      > Where are these? I keep hearing about them, but honestly, in 20 years I
      > don't think I've ever met one.

      Then you're a lucky man, Tim. I'll be quick to agree with Marc and say my
      statements were *not* meant to bash SCA in general. I had a lot of fun and
      learned a lot in the years I was involved as a marshall and as as Arts and
      Sciences officer (sounds like you and I got into it about the same time). I
      worked hard to inspire others to research their work and get as close as
      they could in those roles. But the "authenticity police" Scott speaks of are
      the ones I've seen reduce a newbie at her first event to tears with a
      torrent of "thou shall not"s in as condescending manner as possible. More
      than once. More than a few times, in a more than a few places. Too many
      petty power games for me to swallow, especially when I would try to petition
      these "great ones" for a little slack for the dirt poor students trying just
      trying to get started in what can be, as I said, a really fun and
      educational hobby (funny... you never saw the authenicity police berating
      any of the sword jocks about their armour or fighting styles).

      Like hitting your head against a wall over and over, it feels reeeeelly good
      when you stop, and I eventually walked away shaking my head. You're blessed
      if your canton/shire/kingdom has none of these types present. I wasn't as
      lucky.

      cheers,
      Adam

      Sword in the Stone Crafts -- Fine Leathercrafts and more for the new
      renaissance
      http://welcome.to/SwordintheStoneCrafts
    • Ron Charlotte
      ... At the same time, I cannot allow myself to constantly be limited by the perceptions of others. I enjoy the Society, I also enjoy the research that I have
      Message 2 of 19 , Aug 2, 2001
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        At 08:01 AM 8/1/01 -0500, Marc wrote:
        At 03:51 PM 8/1/01 +1000, Gabrielle wrote:
        >>I was informed this list was very SCA....

        I'm sorry to hear that.  This is not a good thing -- not to criticize anyone, but it is
        a demonstrable fact that when something is identified as "SCA" (or lately even
        "re-enactor", many academics and other serious people will tend to shy away
        from it.

        At the same time, I cannot allow myself to constantly be limited by the perceptions of others.  I enjoy the Society, I also enjoy the research that I have the time to do.  Both are my hobbies and the latter is an outgrowth of the former.  In that respect, the Society did it's stated purpose.

        I've seen just as many ill-informed, opinionated ninnys  at Non-SCA craft clubs as at events.

                 al Thaalibi -- An Crosaire, Trimaris
                 Ron Charlotte -- Gainesville, FL
                 ronch2@... OR afn03234@... 

      • Frojel Gotlandica
        I think that if you treat it as a hobby and say so to people and they can see you are serious about it and have an interest in history, they have a tendency to
        Message 3 of 19 , Aug 2, 2001
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          I think that if you treat it as a hobby and say so to people and they can see you are serious about it and have an interest in history, they have a tendency to talk and ask reasonable questions, if you act like a pompous jackass they heap a load of garbage on you. ( I think it is the Jackas - Beast of burden thing.) I do the "dreaded Re-enactment" but have friends in the SCA, all are very reasonable people, of course some of my friends are academics and a few shake their heads and mutter as they walk away but most are supportive and helpfull, of course it helps that most are archaeologists and I do ask them for information and help then show them the results.
          If you worry about what every moron out there may think of you you will become pre-occupied with morons. Better to do what you do and state that it is either accurate or fantasy and leave it at that. After all the so called authenticty police are far from accurate with everything themselves, how many critics of your shoes are actually wearing turn shoes with up to seven layers of leather on the soles and sewn with boars bristles etc or are wearing period underwear instead of boxers. Nobody is perfect least of all those who claim to be.
          As long as you are having fun and getting satisfaction from what you do and make then the critics can go where lawyers should be. Just laugh and walk away don't take it to heart.
          Accuracy amoung the re-enactment fraternaties and in the SCA has gone ahead by leaps and bounds when academics start quoting SCA web sites to students then the standard must be awfully high. When Museums in Europe buy artifact copies from Re-enactment groups then what more needs to be said.
          Only the ill-informed or those who wish to be un-informed will shy away and they don't matter anyway.
          Just have fun and enjoy yourself, if something is not very accurate then simply improve it next time but don't go bury yourself in the bush because it is not up to someone elses standard. As your skill level increases so will the accuracy of your gear.
          I was just reminded of an incident a few years ago where a person was telling someone off about their equipment, another guy wandered over and simply said "Better than what we had when we first started remember?" The guy looked, did a double take, said sorry and then proceeded to help the guy make better gear. That is what the hobby is about too, helping other people do it better so the standard goes up all the time, that is what the SCA is doing all the time and I hope that we re-enactors can do the same.
          Hell have fun ignore the critics, just do a little better every year. Then help people.
          Back to Lurking
          Lothar Siegfried
          AKA Sandy (Nick name.)




          --Original Message Text---
          From: Ron Charlotte
          Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 06:01:29 -0400

          At 08:01 AM 8/1/01 -0500, Marc wrote:
          At 03:51 PM 8/1/01 +1000, Gabrielle wrote:
          >>I was informed this list was very SCA....

          I'm sorry to hear that. This is not a good thing -- not to criticize anyone, but it is
          a demonstrable fact that when something is identified as "SCA" (or lately even
          "re-enactor", many academics and other serious people will tend to shy away
          from it.


          At the same time, I cannot allow myself to constantly be limited by the perceptions of others. I enjoy the Society, I also enjoy the research that I have the time to do. Both are my hobbies and the latter is an outgrowth of the former. In that respect, the Society did it's stated purpose.

          I've seen just as many ill-informed, opinionated ninnys at Non-SCA craft clubs as at events.



          al Thaalibi -- An Crosaire, Trimaris
          Ron Charlotte -- Gainesville, FL
          ronch2@... OR afn03234@...
          Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


        • Marc Carlson
          ... Absolutely. I don t think that anyone was suggesting that you limit yourself. I work more from the perspective that I would be foolish to not at least
          Message 4 of 19 , Aug 2, 2001
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            At 06:01 AM 8/2/01 -0400, Ron wrote:
            >At the same time, I cannot allow myself to constantly be limited by the perceptions of others.
            >I enjoy the Society, I also enjoy the research that I have the time to do. Both are my hobbies
            >and the latter is an outgrowth of the former. In that respect, the Society did it's stated purpose.
            >I've seen just as many ill-informed, opinionated ninnys at Non-SCA craft clubs as at events.

            Absolutely.

            I don't think that anyone was suggesting that you limit yourself. I work more from the
            perspective that I would be foolish to not at least acknowledge limitations that are placed before
            me. I can pretend they do not exist, and keep running into them. Or I can note the, and walk
            around them

            Marc
          • Ron Charlotte
            At 03:46 PM 8/1/01 -0400, Adam wrote: ... No flaming. We are on this list because we _are_ a bit more serious on this subject than average. A lot of
            Message 5 of 19 , Aug 3, 2001
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              At 03:46 PM 8/1/01 -0400, Adam wrote:
              <deletia>

              >
              > Well, that's kind of annoying seeing as how most of us here would be
              quite
              > interested in what they had to say.   What are their reasons?

              At the risk of being flamed into the dark ages...

              Let's face it: anyone who's in or has been in SCA knows these ocassional
              people; somewhat self-righteous and arrogant, putting SCA-mythology forward
              as historical fact, with a pumped-up sense of expertise and
              self-importance. Come on, you know who I' talking about. We know they're
              not the majority by any means, but they're frequently in high SCA positions
              are usually the first ones to open their mouths when in any sort of public
              spotlight or venue. First imnpressions are lasting ones, and they give the
              rest of us a bad name. I personally know a few public event organizers that
              had SCA groups in for public demos once that wouldn't have them back at
              another event if you paid them. Sad but true. It was an over-abundance of
              these sort in my Kingdom that eventually had me give up on the SCA
              altogether. I just couldn't take the bullsh*t anymore.

              No flaming.  We are on this list because we _are_ a bit more serious on this subject than average. 

              A lot of this type of problem will vary from area to area.  Locally, the Society has a pretty good reputation and relationship with things like the city-run ren faire, where we set up a very large and well regarded demonstration area for the last 13 year.  We put a lot of effort into making sure that everyone that works it doesn't shovel BS when "I don't know" is a perfectly valid answer.  As a result, we have to turn down demo requests simply for lack of bodies with time to cover them all.

              At the same time, I do know peers whose mouths should be duct taped around reporters......

                       Ron Charlotte -- Gainesville, FL
                       ronch2@... OR afn03234@...

            • Frojel Gotlandica
              somewhat self-righteous and arrogant, putting SCA-mythology forward as historical fact, with a pumped-up sense of expertise and self-importance. Come on, you
              Message 6 of 19 , Aug 3, 2001
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                somewhat self-righteous and arrogant, putting SCA-mythology forward
                as historical fact, with a pumped-up sense of expertise and
                self-importance. Come on, you know who I' talking about. We know they're
                not the majority by any means, but they're frequently in high SCA positions
                are usually the first ones to open their mouths when in any sort of public
                spotlight or venue. First imnpressions are lasting ones, and they give the
                rest of us a bad name.

                L:O:L So who said the SCA had a exclusive claim to these types?
                There everywhere. :-(
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