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Re: Re: [medieval-leather] Re: Sling leather?

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  • Ian Carlisle
    Hi. Long time no write. I have been lurking. On slings, we have some objects from Coppergate (York) which are very similar to those from Haithabu (and
    Message 1 of 10 , Dec 31, 1969
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      Hi. Long time no write. I have been lurking.

      On slings, we have some objects from Coppergate (York) which are very similar to those from Haithabu (and elsewhere). They are basically diamond-shaped or lenticular with slashes which you would imagine would allow them to expand to take a stone or lead
      bullet. However, I have consulted with a man (whose name escapes me at the moment) from the Royal Armouries who is something of an expert in this field. He doubts very strongly whether these objects would function as slings because the leather is too thi
      ck to enclose the missile properly and the holes at each end would only allow for very thin cord or thonging, which would break easily. He also points out that all surviving slings worldwide are of textile. He did, however, mention a surviving example of
      a leather sling which was for many years supposed to have been kept in (Winchester? Worcester?) cathedral. It was mentioned in the late 19th or 20th century, but is now unfortunately lost. So I would tend to use textile for your slings as the evidence f
      or leather examples is too poor. Hope this helps

      Ian


      -----------Original Message-----------
      From: jamesahowell@...
      To: "medieval-leather@egroups.com" <medieval-leather@egroups.com>
      Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 13:21:26 -0500
      Subject: Re: [medieval-leather] Re: Sling leather?

      > That is very interesting. Its in the Berkeley Anthropology library,
      > so
      > I will check it soonest. But if this is a pouch only, then it would
      > indicate a leather pouch and plant fiber cords, as one would tend to
      >
      > interpret the Anglo-Saxon drawings... Thanks!
      >
      It may also indicate an acknowledgement that the thong part would be
      likely to break, allowing you to replace the thongs while not having to
      replace the pouch part. You'll see when you look at it. Finnr





      > --- In medieval-leather@egroups.com, jamesahowell@j... wrote:
      > > It is my understanding there is a book:
      > > Die Lederfunde auf Haithabu_ by Von Willy Groenman-van Waateringe
      > >
      > > In it, there is a find of leather objects that have been
      > interpreted
      > > to be slings. Does anyone know about this? Is this book available
      > > somewhere? Are there any pictures, on-line or not, of these
      > supposed
      > > slings?
      > >
      > > It is evident that the sling was not unknown in N Europe, but
      > > worldwide most slings were woven of fiber, rather than leather, so
      >
      > > this find would be interesting.
      > >
      > > Thanks!
      > >
      > >
      > > Correct, however, they are not complete slings, just the
      > pouch
      > part. I
      > > would give you more information, but the book is in German, which
      > I
      > can't
      > > read. Don't know if it is still in print or not, but a quick
      > check
      > with
      > > one of the online booksearch services should give you an answer.
      > No
      > > on-line pictures that I know of.
      > >
      >
      > Regards, Finnr
      >
      >
      >
      >

      "Better is alive than lifeless to be; the living can always get a cow.
      The halt can ride a horse, the hand-less drive a flock, the deaf can
      bravely battle.
      A blind man is better than a burned one; a corpse is useless to all."
      Havamal





      ---------End Original Message---------
      --
    • Douglas Sunlin
      It is my understanding there is a book: Die Lederfunde auf Haithabu_ by Von Willy Groenman-van Waateringe In it, there is a find of leather objects that have
      Message 2 of 10 , Jan 12, 2001
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        It is my understanding there is a book:
        Die Lederfunde auf Haithabu_ by Von Willy Groenman-van Waateringe

        In it, there is a find of leather objects that have been interpreted
        to be slings. Does anyone know about this? Is this book available
        somewhere? Are there any pictures, on-line or not, of these supposed
        slings?

        It is evident that the sling was not unknown in N Europe, but
        worldwide most slings were woven of fiber, rather than leather, so
        this find would be interesting.

        Thanks!
      • jamesahowell@juno.com
        It is my understanding there is a book: Die Lederfunde auf Haithabu_ by Von Willy Groenman-van Waateringe In it, there is a find of leather objects that have
        Message 3 of 10 , Jan 14, 2001
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          It is my understanding there is a book:
          Die Lederfunde auf Haithabu_ by Von Willy Groenman-van Waateringe

          In it, there is a find of leather objects that have been interpreted
          to be slings. Does anyone know about this? Is this book available
          somewhere? Are there any pictures, on-line or not, of these supposed
          slings?

          It is evident that the sling was not unknown in N Europe, but
          worldwide most slings were woven of fiber, rather than leather, so
          this find would be interesting.

          Thanks!


          Correct, however, they are not complete slings, just the pouch part. I
          would give you more information, but the book is in German, which I can't
          read. Don't know if it is still in print or not, but a quick check with
          one of the online booksearch services should give you an answer. No
          on-line pictures that I know of.
          Regards, Finnr
        • Douglas Sunlin
          That is very interesting. Its in the Berkeley Anthropology library, so I will check it soonest. But if this is a pouch only, then it would indicate a leather
          Message 4 of 10 , Jan 15, 2001
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            That is very interesting. Its in the Berkeley Anthropology library, so
            I will check it soonest. But if this is a pouch only, then it would
            indicate a leather pouch and plant fiber cords, as one would tend to
            interpret the Anglo-Saxon drawings... Thanks!

            --- In medieval-leather@egroups.com, jamesahowell@j... wrote:
            > It is my understanding there is a book:
            > Die Lederfunde auf Haithabu_ by Von Willy Groenman-van Waateringe
            >
            > In it, there is a find of leather objects that have been interpreted
            > to be slings. Does anyone know about this? Is this book available
            > somewhere? Are there any pictures, on-line or not, of these supposed
            > slings?
            >
            > It is evident that the sling was not unknown in N Europe, but
            > worldwide most slings were woven of fiber, rather than leather, so
            > this find would be interesting.
            >
            > Thanks!
            >
            >
            > Correct, however, they are not complete slings, just the pouch
            part. I
            > would give you more information, but the book is in German, which I
            can't
            > read. Don't know if it is still in print or not, but a quick check
            with
            > one of the online booksearch services should give you an answer. No
            > on-line pictures that I know of.
            >
            Regards, Finnr
          • marc-carlson@utulsa.edu
            ... There are pictures in the book. It is unlikely that they are going to be on-line, since the book is under copyright. The slings, if I recall correctly,
            Message 5 of 10 , Jan 15, 2001
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              > > to be slings. Does anyone know about this? Is this book available
              > > somewhere? Are there any pictures, on-line or not, of these supposed
              > > slings?

              There are pictures in the book. It is unlikely that they are going to be
              on-line, since the book is under copyright.

              The slings, if I recall correctly, are basically rectangles, several inches
              long, that have a series of generally parallel slashes in the middle:

              ______________________________
              | |
              | ================ |
              | ================ |
              | ================ |
              | ================ |
              | ================ |
              |______________________________|

              And there may have been some indication of thonging at the edges, but I really
              don't recall for sure.

              Marc
            • jamesahowell@juno.com
              ... It may also indicate an acknowledgement that the thong part would be likely to break, allowing you to replace the thongs while not having to replace the
              Message 6 of 10 , Jan 15, 2001
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                > That is very interesting. Its in the Berkeley Anthropology library,
                > so
                > I will check it soonest. But if this is a pouch only, then it would
                > indicate a leather pouch and plant fiber cords, as one would tend to
                >
                > interpret the Anglo-Saxon drawings... Thanks!
                >
                It may also indicate an acknowledgement that the thong part would be
                likely to break, allowing you to replace the thongs while not having to
                replace the pouch part. You'll see when you look at it. Finnr





                > --- In medieval-leather@egroups.com, jamesahowell@j... wrote:
                > > It is my understanding there is a book:
                > > Die Lederfunde auf Haithabu_ by Von Willy Groenman-van Waateringe
                > >
                > > In it, there is a find of leather objects that have been
                > interpreted
                > > to be slings. Does anyone know about this? Is this book available
                > > somewhere? Are there any pictures, on-line or not, of these
                > supposed
                > > slings?
                > >
                > > It is evident that the sling was not unknown in N Europe, but
                > > worldwide most slings were woven of fiber, rather than leather, so
                >
                > > this find would be interesting.
                > >
                > > Thanks!
                > >
                > >
                > > Correct, however, they are not complete slings, just the
                > pouch
                > part. I
                > > would give you more information, but the book is in German, which
                > I
                > can't
                > > read. Don't know if it is still in print or not, but a quick
                > check
                > with
                > > one of the online booksearch services should give you an answer.
                > No
                > > on-line pictures that I know of.
                > >
                >
                > Regards, Finnr
                >
                >
                >
                >

                "Better is alive than lifeless to be; the living can always get a cow.
                The halt can ride a horse, the hand-less drive a flock, the deaf can
                bravely battle.
                A blind man is better than a burned one; a corpse is useless to all."
                Havamal
              • Douglas Sunlin
                Very interesting post. I thank you for your input. I know that textile slings outnumber leather slings vastly, but I believe your friend is not right when he
                Message 7 of 10 , Jan 16, 2001
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                  Very interesting post. I thank you for your input.

                  I know that textile slings outnumber leather slings vastly, but I
                  believe your friend is not right when he says that there are no
                  leather slings.
                  See for instance:
                  http://www.abotech.com/Articles/Campbell02.htm
                  Plus, it's hard to say what thickness of leather is too thick for a
                  sling, unless you have tried it.

                  The reason I don't assume that all northern European slings are
                  textile, is simply that no textile slings have been found from this
                  area. I am merely undecided. The research is for a re-enactment
                  society, so I am interested in determining one or the other.

                  Thanks again,

                  Douglas

                  --- In medieval-leather@egroups.com, "Ian Carlisle" <icarlisle@y...>
                  wrote:
                  > Hi. Long time no write. I have been lurking.
                  >
                  > On slings, we have some objects from Coppergate (York) which are
                  very similar to those from Haithabu (and elsewhere). They are
                  basically diamond-shaped or lenticular with slashes which you would
                  imagine would allow them to expand to take a stone or lead
                  > bullet. However, I have consulted with a man (whose name escapes me
                  at the moment) from the Royal Armouries who is something of an expert
                  in this field. He doubts very strongly whether these objects would
                  function as slings because the leather is too thi
                  > ck to enclose the missile properly and the holes at each end would
                  only allow for very thin cord or thonging, which would break easily.
                  He also points out that all surviving slings worldwide are of textile.
                  He did, however, mention a surviving example of
                  > a leather sling which was for many years supposed to have been kept
                  in (Winchester? Worcester?) cathedral. It was mentioned in the late
                  19th or 20th century, but is now unfortunately lost. So I would tend
                  to use textile for your slings as the evidence f
                  > or leather examples is too poor. Hope this helps
                  >
                  > Ian
                  >
                  >
                  > -----------Original Message-----------
                  > From: jamesahowell@j...
                  > To: "medieval-leather@egroups.com" <medieval-leather@egroups.com>
                  > Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 13:21:26 -0500
                  > Subject: Re: [medieval-leather] Re: Sling leather?
                  >
                  > > That is very interesting. Its in the Berkeley Anthropology
                  library,
                  > > so
                  > > I will check it soonest. But if this is a pouch only, then it
                  would
                  > > indicate a leather pouch and plant fiber cords, as one would tend
                  to
                  > >
                  > > interpret the Anglo-Saxon drawings... Thanks!
                  > >
                  > It may also indicate an acknowledgement that the thong part
                  would be
                  > likely to break, allowing you to replace the thongs while not having
                  to
                  > replace the pouch part. You'll see when you look at it.
                  Finnr
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > > --- In medieval-leather@egroups.com, jamesahowell@j... wrote:
                  > > > It is my understanding there is a book:
                  > > > Die Lederfunde auf Haithabu_ by Von Willy Groenman-van
                  Waateringe
                  > > >
                  > > > In it, there is a find of leather objects that have been
                  > > interpreted
                  > > > to be slings. Does anyone know about this? Is this book
                  available
                  > > > somewhere? Are there any pictures, on-line or not, of these
                  > > supposed
                  > > > slings?
                  > > >
                  > > > It is evident that the sling was not unknown in N Europe, but
                  > > > worldwide most slings were woven of fiber, rather than leather,
                  so
                  > >
                  > > > this find would be interesting.
                  > > >
                  > > > Thanks!
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Correct, however, they are not complete slings, just the
                  > > pouch
                  > > part. I
                  > > > would give you more information, but the book is in German,
                  which
                  > > I
                  > > can't
                  > > > read. Don't know if it is still in print or not, but a quick
                  > > check
                  > > with
                  > > > one of the online booksearch services should give you an answer.
                  > > No
                  > > > on-line pictures that I know of.
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > > Regards, Finnr
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  > "Better is alive than lifeless to be; the living can always get a
                  cow.
                  > The halt can ride a horse, the hand-less drive a flock, the deaf can
                  > bravely battle.
                  > A blind man is better than a burned one; a corpse is useless to
                  all."
                  > Havamal
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ---------End Original Message---------
                  > --
                • rmhowe
                  Groenmann-Van Waateringe, Willy. Die Lederfunde von Haithabu. (Berichte Über die Ausgrabungen in Haithabu, Berichte 21) Neumunster
                  Message 8 of 10 , Jan 30, 2001
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                    Groenmann-Van Waateringe, Willy. Die Lederfunde von Haithabu.
                    (Berichte Über die Ausgrabungen in Haithabu, Berichte 21) Neumunster
                    : K. Wachholtz, 1984.


                    jamesahowell@... wrote:
                    >
                    > It is my understanding there is a book:
                    > Die Lederfunde auf Haithabu_ by Von Willy Groenman-van Waateringe
                    >
                    > In it, there is a find of leather objects that have been interpreted
                    > to be slings. Does anyone know about this? Is this book available
                    > somewhere? Are there any pictures, on-line or not, of these supposed
                    > slings?
                    >
                    > It is evident that the sling was not unknown in N Europe, but
                    > worldwide most slings were woven of fiber, rather than leather, so
                    > this find would be interesting.
                    >
                    > Thanks!
                    >
                    > Correct, however, they are not complete slings, just the pouch part. I
                    > would give you more information, but the book is in German, which I can't
                    > read. Don't know if it is still in print or not, but a quick check with
                    > one of the online booksearch services should give you an answer. No
                    > on-line pictures that I know of.
                    > Regards, Finnr
                  • rmhowe
                    I suppose I was doing all wrong there then as a teenager. I attended an English-style High Episcopal Boarding School. We regularly fought with anything to hand
                    Message 9 of 10 , Jan 31, 2001
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                      I suppose I was doing all wrong there then as a teenager.
                      I attended an English-style High Episcopal Boarding School.
                      We regularly fought with anything to hand up there.
                      We called them rumbles, and they might involve up to sixty
                      boys at a time from different dorms or forms (grades).
                      Often fought in the dark in dark clothing.

                      I recall quite clearly hitting an opponent at a distance
                      of 150 feet seven times in one fight across a lake dam.

                      I used a simple leather sling with leather bootlace thongs.
                      Loop on one end, knot on another. Probably about four to six
                      ounce leather. Sling length was about six feet. Pouch
                      about four inches. Threw both overhand and underhand.
                      Usually on distance I threw an oblique underhand.

                      It was not the only fight I got in with one either.
                      I used a sling for several years. If you can find rounder
                      rocks they tend to fly a whole lot straighter and quieter.
                      We used everything short of guns in our battles.
                      Slingshots, clubs, scalpels, etc.

                      The trick is to sling when your opponent is looking for
                      ammunition, and watch him when he throws. Rounder rocks
                      don't hum as much.

                      And I have seen the Haithabu illustrations.
                      I never bothered to slit my sling. I just was awful
                      careful to place the rock.

                      Magnus, many years later, remembering an ill spent youth.

                      Douglas Sunlin wrote:
                      >
                      > Very interesting post. I thank you for your input.
                      >
                      > I know that textile slings outnumber leather slings vastly, but I
                      > believe your friend is not right when he says that there are no
                      > leather slings.
                      > See for instance:
                      > http://www.abotech.com/Articles/Campbell02.htm
                      > Plus, it's hard to say what thickness of leather is too thick for a
                      > sling, unless you have tried it.
                      >
                      > The reason I don't assume that all northern European slings are
                      > textile, is simply that no textile slings have been found from this
                      > area. I am merely undecided. The research is for a re-enactment
                      > society, so I am interested in determining one or the other.
                      >
                      > Thanks again,
                      >
                      > Douglas
                      >
                      > --- In medieval-leather@egroups.com, "Ian Carlisle" <icarlisle@y...>
                      > wrote:
                      > > Hi. Long time no write. I have been lurking.
                      > >
                      > > On slings, we have some objects from Coppergate (York) which are
                      > very similar to those from Haithabu (and elsewhere). They are
                      > basically diamond-shaped or lenticular with slashes which you would
                      > imagine would allow them to expand to take a stone or lead
                      > > bullet. However, I have consulted with a man (whose name escapes me
                      > at the moment) from the Royal Armouries who is something of an expert
                      > in this field. He doubts very strongly whether these objects would
                      > function as slings because the leather is too thi
                      > > ck to enclose the missile properly and the holes at each end would
                      > only allow for very thin cord or thonging, which would break easily.
                      > He also points out that all surviving slings worldwide are of textile.
                      > He did, however, mention a surviving example of
                      > > a leather sling which was for many years supposed to have been kept
                      > in (Winchester? Worcester?) cathedral. It was mentioned in the late
                      > 19th or 20th century, but is now unfortunately lost. So I would tend
                      > to use textile for your slings as the evidence f
                      > > or leather examples is too poor. Hope this helps
                      > >
                      > > Ian
                    • ImDaCow@aol.com
                      Hi Did you do an around-the-head throw, or how the heck did you keep the sling from hitting the ground? David
                      Message 10 of 10 , Jan 31, 2001
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                        Hi

                        << Sling length was about six feet >>

                        Did you do an around-the-head throw, or how the heck did you keep the sling
                        from hitting the ground?

                        David
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