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[medieval-leather] Re: Leather vest

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  • Marc Carlson
    ... Ian may have a better idea, but nothing like that has turned up in my search for leather clothes in the Middle ages. It is
    Message 1 of 22 , Oct 10, 1999
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      <Sharon Smith Hurlburt wrote:>
      > Hey there gang. I'm trying to find pictures of or patterns for an >earlier period leather bodice or vest, perhaps something worn over a
      >t-tunic. I don't know if such a thing actually exists but I need
      >something for when I shoot archery & I'd prefer to stick with something
      >somewhere near my persona's time period (11th Century).

      Ian may have a better idea, but nothing like that has turned up in my
      search for leather clothes in the Middle ages. It is possible that a
      leather surcoat might have been used.

      Not to be a nag, mind you, but you wouldn't have been wearing a
      "T-Tunic" in the 11th century either... :)

      Marc
    • Ian Carlisle
      ... Archaeological finds of leather garments are few and too fragmentary to make out their form. There is a tunic of sorts from in the museum at Haithabu
      Message 2 of 22 , Oct 11, 1999
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        > <Sharon Smith Hurlburt wrote:>
        > > Hey there gang. I'm trying to find pictures of or patterns for an
        > > >earlier period leather bodice or vest, perhaps something worn over a
        > >t-tunic. I don't know if such a thing actually exists but I need
        > >something for when I shoot archery & I'd prefer to stick with something
        > >somewhere near my persona's time period (11th Century).
        >
        > Ian may have a better idea, but nothing like that has turned up in my
        > search for leather clothes in the Middle ages. It is possible that a
        > leather surcoat might have been used.
        >
        Archaeological finds of leather garments are few and too
        fragmentary to make out their form. There is a tunic of sorts from in
        the museum at Haithabu (Hedeby) in Germany (but in Schleswig -
        formerly part of Denmark), though I don't have any references I'm
        afraid.


        Ian Carlisle
        Artefact Research
        York Archaeological Trust
        01904 663034
      • Michelle "TJ" Brunzie
        So, I gather the concensus is that we don t have proof for early period leather vests? Were they worn in any period? Violante
        Message 3 of 22 , Oct 12, 1999
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          So, I gather the concensus is that we don't have proof for early
          period leather vests? Were they worn in any period?

          Violante

          > At 16:25 1999-10-10 -0400, you wrote:
          > >Hey there gang. I'm trying to find pictures of or patterns for
          > an earlier
          > >period leather bodice or vest, perhaps something worn over a t-tunic. I
          > >don't know if such a thing actually exists but I need something
          > for when I
          > >shoot archery & I'd prefer to stick with something somewhere near my
          > >persona's time period (11th Century).
          > >Thanks!
        • Marc Carlson
          ... Sure they were. They were all the rage (relatively speaking) after about 1545. Marc
          Message 4 of 22 , Oct 12, 1999
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            At 03:02 PM 10/12/99 -0400, Violante wrote:
            >So, I gather the concensus is that we don't have proof for early
            >period leather vests? Were they worn in any period?

            Sure they were. They were all the rage (relatively speaking) after
            about 1545.

            Marc
          • Peter Adams
            Ah, now we are on firmer ground. In fact for archery, the sleeveless leather jerkins of the Mary Rose finds are just what you want. The one drawn in
            Message 5 of 22 , Oct 12, 1999
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              Ah, now we are on firmer ground. In fact for archery, the sleeveless leather
              "jerkins" of the Mary Rose finds are just what you want. The one drawn in
              Margaret Rule _the Mary Rose_ seems to have been sewn on the left side and
              shoulder, and laced on the right side and shoulder. It has three horizontal
              bands of diagonal slashing, one in the middle of the stomach, and two which
              connect to the upper two, which cross the chest. The author suggests this is
              likely an officers piece, most were plain.
              Some appear to have fastened in the front, no information given on how.
              They mostly have "flared skirt pieces below the waist" as the illustration, but
              no information on the back.
              Greg Stapleton may be able to help you contact the Mary Rose Museum to see
              if they have any resources to share, or you can browse around
              http://www.maryrose.org/

              Good luck!
              Peter

              Michelle \"TJ\" Brunzie wrote:

              > So, I gather the concensus is that we don't have proof for early
              > period leather vests? Were they worn in any period?
              >
              > Violante
              >
              > > At 16:25 1999-10-10 -0400, you wrote:
              > > >Hey there gang. I'm trying to find pictures of or patterns for
              > > an earlier
              > > >period leather bodice or vest, perhaps something worn over a t-tunic. I
              > > >don't know if such a thing actually exists but I need something
              > > for when I
              > > >shoot archery & I'd prefer to stick with something somewhere near my
              > > >persona's time period (11th Century).
              > > >Thanks!
              >
              > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
              >
              > eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/medieval-leather
              > http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications
            • Sharon Smith Hurlburt
              ... That s the impression I m getting. And while the discussion about the Viking Coats has been interesting, it s not very helpful. To be blunt, I m fairly
              Message 6 of 22 , Oct 12, 1999
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                At 03:02 PM 10/12/1999 -0400, you wrote:
                >
                >So, I gather the concensus is that we don't have proof for early
                >period leather vests?

                That's the impression I'm getting. And while the discussion about the
                Viking Coats has been interesting, it's not very helpful.

                To be blunt, I'm fairly busty & while warmth is good, I'm really looking
                for something more protective. It' looks like I'll either have to create
                something or go later period.

                Sharon/Morwenna,
                who now understands the legends about the Amazons




                "Pound for pound, the fiercest animal in the animal kingdom"



                @* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *@
                Ealaín Álainn Leathercrafters
                Sharon Smith Hurlburt, Proprietrix
                Quality Celtic, Modern & Medieval Leatherwork
                Custom Orders Welcome
                email- <medhbh@...>
                Now part of The Mystic Caravan on the Web!
                http://mystic-caravan.com
                @* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *@
              • Marc Carlson
                ... I m sorry to hear that. History is a difficult lover, and doesn t always conform to our desires, so much as forces us to revise our desires to the reality
                Message 7 of 22 , Oct 13, 1999
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                  At 01:10 AM 10/13/99 -0400, Sharon/Morwenna wrote:
                  >>So, I gather the concensus is that we don't have proof for early
                  >>period leather vests?
                  >
                  >That's the impression I'm getting. And while the discussion about the
                  >Viking Coats has been interesting, it's not very helpful.

                  I'm sorry to hear that. History is a difficult lover, and doesn't always
                  conform to our desires, so much as forces us to revise our desires to the
                  reality of what is.

                  The Bayeaux Tapestry shows archers wearing what
                  looks like a knee length tunic with a full skirt. There is no reason you
                  couldn't make one of those from leather. If you don't like leather, you
                  could consider quilting, as in a padded gambeson.

                  If you are married to the idea of a) being truly accurate, and b) something
                  that opens in front like a jacket, then perhaps the 11th century isn't for
                  you.

                  Marc
                • jamesahowell@juno.com
                  Hello Morwenna, If I may suggest, sometimes, we as Creative Anachronists run into problems like yours that don t have straight forward solutions, either from
                  Message 8 of 22 , Oct 13, 1999
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                    Hello Morwenna,
                    If I may suggest, sometimes, we as "Creative Anachronists" run into
                    problems like yours that don't have straight forward solutions, either
                    from us doing something that wasn't common in period, or that there just
                    isn't enough documentation on. What I suggest is that you make a
                    sleeveless kaftan-like jerkin out of leather and if anybody asks, tell
                    them that it was a combination of the best information you had with what
                    you needed to accomplish your goal. I often find in reenacting that
                    sometimes you need to do something in camp that there is no documentation
                    for, and you just take your best guess and go on. I would suggest that
                    you make your jerkin out of something heavier, like elk, since it is my
                    impression that you are trying to achieve some compression. I hope you
                    find a solution that works for you.
                    Regards, James
                  • Varju@aol.com
                    In a message dated 10/13/1999 9:08:59 AM Mountain Daylight Time, marc-carlson@utulsa.edu writes:
                    Message 9 of 22 , Oct 13, 1999
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                      In a message dated 10/13/1999 9:08:59 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
                      marc-carlson@... writes:

                      << If you are married to the idea of a) being truly accurate, and b)
                      something
                      that opens in front like a jacket, then perhaps the 11th century isn't for
                      you. >>

                      If you are interested in looking at other options you could look at the
                      clothing of any of the nomadic peoples of the time, especially the Mongols,
                      since their clothing was designed to be archery friendly. Mongol clothing is
                      also pretty well documented so pictures are easy to find. . .

                      Noemi
                      who is still looking for that elusive information on what the Magyars REALLY
                      wore when they showed up in Europe. . .
                    • Marc Carlson
                      ... is ... It is true that she didn t say *where* she was depicting in the llth century, we seem to have assumed Europe. Certainly there are other 11th
                      Message 10 of 22 , Oct 14, 1999
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                        At 02:49 AM 10/14/99 -0400, Noemi wrote:
                        >In a message dated 10/13/1999 9:08:59 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
                        >marc-carlson@... writes:
                        >
                        ><< If you are married to the idea of a) being truly accurate, and b)
                        >something
                        > that opens in front like a jacket, then perhaps the 11th century isn't for
                        > you. >>
                        >
                        >If you are interested in looking at other options you could look at the
                        >clothing of any of the nomadic peoples of the time, especially the Mongols,
                        >since their clothing was designed to be archery friendly. Mongol clothing
                        is
                        >also pretty well documented so pictures are easy to find. . .

                        It is true that she didn't say *where* she was depicting in the llth century,
                        we seem to have assumed Europe. Certainly there are other 11th century
                        options.
                        OTOH, if she is portraying someone from Europe, those other options are,
                        accuracy-wise, as inappropriate as picking and choosing from other eras.

                        Speaking of "inappropriate", I have something else to say. If you don't
                        want to
                        listen to another of Marc's rants, you might want to delete this and move on.

                        As for Jame's comment yesterday about "Creative Anachronists" also makes an
                        inappropriate assumption - that someone who wants to portray the 11th century
                        is a member of the SCA. This is not an SCA list, and the last time I checked
                        we used to have people from other groups here as well. This may not seem
                        terribly important to some, but as hard as it may be to swallow, there are
                        still places in the world where being connected with the SCA will trash
                        any academic or scholarly validity you might strive for. That's not a
                        criticism
                        of the SCA - it's just a statement of reality as it now exists.

                        The SCA is a dandy organization that has a lot of good points. Also, some of
                        its membership are really find scholars. Unfortunately, some of its
                        membership
                        either can't grasp, or just doesn't care, that just because something is
                        "period"
                        doesn't mean it's accurate for the person you portray.

                        Strangely, some of the people most sensitive to this unique perspective on
                        history are archaeologists, historians, and people who are actually doing
                        historical re-enactment. They are also some of the hardest people to convince
                        that you are serious about learning about history and historical processes.

                        I was under the impression when this list was formed that is was meant to be
                        serious about real historical leatherwork, not "creative anachronisms". I
                        believe
                        that's what "SCA-Arts" is for. If this has changed, I wish the List Owner
                        would
                        mention it so I can stop getting all twisted about it.

                        Marc
                      • jamesahowell@juno.com
                        Dear Marc (and others), I seem to have done it again. My answer was based on a number of bits of information, the first of which was that I was pretty sure
                        Message 11 of 22 , Oct 14, 1999
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                          Dear Marc (and others),
                          I seem to have done it again. My answer was based on a number of bits
                          of information, the first of which was that I was pretty sure that the
                          person who posted the question was a SCAdian. The second is that this
                          person was trying to accomlish something that may not have had any
                          equivalents in her period, and if there were any, by our knowledge
                          standard, the evidence is non-existant.
                          I have come to the habit of letting threads like this run for several
                          days before I jump into the middle of them, because I would rather give
                          the people who have the best information (Ian, you, Greg, etc.) a chance
                          to provide the best answer possible. When you guys have a hard time
                          coming up with anything, as was seemingly the case here, I put my two
                          cents worth in, rather than leaving a postee with few or no viable
                          options.
                          Now if you'll go back and read my response, you will see that I have
                          qualified my statement rather heavily. The "Creative Anachronism"
                          statement, was addressed to a SCAdian (or at least someone I was sure was
                          a SCAdian), because she asked about something that was in a SCAdian
                          context, and I stated that sometimes when we are doing something that
                          there is little or no evidence for, we take our best guess and go on. I
                          assumed (rightly or wrongly, based on how _I_ read these posts) that
                          people that were not interested in this particular aspect of leather work
                          would ignore it. I agree with you, though, that if the focus of this
                          list is to be narrower than what I (and, I believe, at lot of other
                          people on it) think it is, then we are due some brief words from our
                          sponsor (sorry Greg, don't mean to dump this in your lap).
                          Think of it this way-if you are familiar with the Damendorf bog pants-if
                          I wanted to make a pair of those pants as part of my interpretation, I
                          either have to fill in the missing front panel with my best guess, based
                          on what I know, or run around with my privates waving in the air, because
                          that entire front flap just isn't there any more. When you are
                          recreating a pair of shoes with missing parts, you don't leave those
                          parts out, you use your knowledge to fill in the gaps. I guess the real
                          question then is "How far down the line of filling in is still
                          appropriate?" I believe that my answer was appropriate, given the
                          circumstances of the post and the answers to date. I would rather help
                          someone find a creative solution to their problem than tell them, "You
                          are out of luck." If that makes my attitude inappropriate to this list,
                          then I humbly beg all's pardon, and I will withdraw from it.
                          Sincerely, James Howell/
                          Finnr Grimulfsson



                          "Better is alive than lifeless to be; the living can always get a cow.
                          The halt can ride a horse, the hand-less drive a flock, the deaf can
                          bravely battle.
                          A blind man is better than a burned one; a corpse is useless to all."
                          Havamal
                        • Jonathan T Getty
                          ... thank you, marc. i ve been trying to say that succinctly for a while now. i end up doing commissioned pieces from all over the SCA period, but i still get
                          Message 12 of 22 , Oct 14, 1999
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                            > The SCA is a dandy organization that has a lot of good points. Also,
                            > some of its membership are really fine scholars. Unfortunately, some of
                            > its membership either can't grasp, or just doesn't care, that just
                            > because something is "period" doesn't mean it's accurate for the person
                            > you portray.

                            thank you, marc. i've been trying to say that succinctly for a while now.
                            i end up doing commissioned pieces from all over the SCA period, but i
                            still get a laugh when renaissance italians ask for a pair of hide boots
                            like mine, rubber soles and all (they were my first project :)

                            > I was under the impression when this list was formed that is was meant
                            > to be serious about real historical leatherwork, not "creative
                            > anachronisms". I believe that's what "SCA-Arts" is for. If this has
                            > changed, I wish the List Owner would mention it so I can stop getting
                            > all twisted about it.

                            i think most of us agree that makes this list so valuable is the real
                            scholarship we have access to here (thank you very very very very...).

                            jon getty/todde mac donnell
                          • marc-carlson@utulsa.edu
                            I m sorry James, I hadn t intended to single you out, other than to refer to your message as a symptom of a camel in the tent sort of thing going on. You
                            Message 13 of 22 , Oct 14, 1999
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                              I'm sorry James, I hadn't intended to single you out,
                              other than to refer to your message as a symptom of a
                              "camel in the tent" sort of thing going on. You haven't
                              done anything "wrong", and certainly not anything you
                              need to apologize for, or to feel targeted for.

                              You responded to the lady in question in a fashion that
                              was perfectly in keeping with the overall tone of the
                              group lately. There's nothing wrong with that. It's
                              the fact that the overall tone seems to be slipping to
                              make this "just another SCA list" that I was commenting
                              on.

                              Marc
                            • Varju@aol.com
                              In a message dated 10/14/1999 8:32:35 AM Mountain Daylight Time, marc-carlson@utulsa.edu writes:
                              Message 14 of 22 , Oct 14, 1999
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                                In a message dated 10/14/1999 8:32:35 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
                                marc-carlson@... writes:

                                << t is true that she didn't say *where* she was depicting in the llth
                                century,
                                we seem to have assumed Europe. Certainly there are other 11th century
                                options.
                                OTOH, if she is portraying someone from Europe, those other options are,
                                accuracy-wise, as inappropriate as picking and choosing from other eras.>>

                                To be absolutely accurate, unless she was a member of any nomadic cultures
                                she most likely would not be doing archery either. I suggested the Mongol
                                clothing as one where a) it is archer friendly, b) is a culture where women
                                were archers, and c) is to my taste, is preferable to wearing clothing that
                                there is no proof existed. It was merely an attempt on my part to offer
                                another solutions to this lady's problem.

                                The appropriateness also depends heavily on what your definition of Europe
                                is. Mine tends to be a bit broader that others due to my area of interest.

                                Noemi
                              • Marc Carlson
                                ... You are entirely correct. I apologize if I mispoke. ... Also true. Mine ends at the Urals, but I do know those who end it far further west. Marc
                                Message 15 of 22 , Oct 14, 1999
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                                  Varju@... wrote:
                                  >To be absolutely accurate, unless she was a member of any nomadic
                                  >cultures she most likely would not be doing archery either. I
                                  >suggested the Mongol clothing as one where a) it is archer friendly, b)
                                  >is a culture where women were archers, and c) is to my taste, is
                                  >preferable to wearing clothing that there is no proof existed. It was
                                  >merely an attempt on my part to offer another solutions to this lady's
                                  >problem.

                                  You are entirely correct. I apologize if I mispoke.

                                  > The appropriateness also depends heavily on what your definition of >Europe is. Mine tends to be a bit broader that others due to my area
                                  >of interest.

                                  Also true. Mine ends at the Urals, but I do know those who end it far
                                  further west.

                                  Marc
                                • Peter Adams
                                  hehe, see, I told you we would know when you are ranting! You should see some of mine that have hit another list lately ,only to be retracted when the issue
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Oct 14, 1999
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                                    hehe, see, I told you we would know when you are ranting! You should see some of
                                    mine that have hit another list lately ,only to be retracted when the issue turned
                                    out to be a breakdown in communication, and not slacking off on the recipients of
                                    the ire...
                                  • Peter Adams
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Oct 14, 1999
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                                      Marc Carlson wrote:

                                      > At 02:49 AM 10/14/99 -0400, Noemi wrote:
                                      > >In a message dated 10/13/1999 9:08:59 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
                                      > >marc-carlson@... writes:
                                      > >
                                      > ><< If you are married to the idea of a) being truly accurate, and b)
                                      > >something
                                      > > that opens in front like a jacket, then perhaps the 11th century isn't for
                                      > > you. >>
                                      > >
                                      > >If you are interested in looking at other options you could look at the
                                      > >clothing of any of the nomadic peoples of the time, especially the Mongols,
                                      > >since their clothing was designed to be archery friendly. Mongol clothing
                                      > is
                                      > >also pretty well documented so pictures are easy to find. . .
                                      >
                                      > It is true that she didn't say *where* she was depicting in the llth century,
                                      > we seem to have assumed Europe. Certainly there are other 11th century
                                      > options.
                                      > OTOH, if she is portraying someone from Europe, those other options are,
                                      > accuracy-wise, as inappropriate as picking and choosing from other eras.
                                      >
                                      > Speaking of "inappropriate", I have something else to say. If you don't
                                      > want to
                                      > listen to another of Marc's rants, you might want to delete this and move on.
                                      >
                                      > As for Jame's comment yesterday about "Creative Anachronists" also makes an
                                      > inappropriate assumption - that someone who wants to portray the 11th century
                                      > is a member of the SCA. This is not an SCA list, and the last time I checked
                                      > we used to have people from other groups here as well. This may not seem
                                      > terribly important to some, but as hard as it may be to swallow, there are
                                      > still places in the world where being connected with the SCA will trash
                                      > any academic or scholarly validity you might strive for. That's not a
                                      > criticism
                                      > of the SCA - it's just a statement of reality as it now exists.
                                      >
                                      > The SCA is a dandy organization that has a lot of good points. Also, some of
                                      > its membership are really find scholars. Unfortunately, some of its
                                      > membership
                                      > either can't grasp, or just doesn't care, that just because something is
                                      > "period"
                                      > doesn't mean it's accurate for the person you portray.
                                      >
                                      > Strangely, some of the people most sensitive to this unique perspective on
                                      > history are archaeologists, historians, and people who are actually doing
                                      > historical re-enactment. They are also some of the hardest people to convince
                                      > that you are serious about learning about history and historical processes.
                                      >
                                      > I was under the impression when this list was formed that is was meant to be
                                      > serious about real historical leatherwork, not "creative anachronisms". I
                                      > believe
                                      > that's what "SCA-Arts" is for. If this has changed, I wish the List Owner
                                      > would
                                      > mention it so I can stop getting all twisted about it.
                                      >
                                      > Marc
                                      >
                                      > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                      >
                                      > eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/medieval-leather
                                      > http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications
                                    • Varju@aol.com
                                      In a message dated 10/14/1999 9:19:49 PM Mountain Daylight Time, marc-carlson@utulsa.edu writes:
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Oct 15, 1999
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                                        In a message dated 10/14/1999 9:19:49 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
                                        marc-carlson@... writes:

                                        << You are entirely correct. I apologize if I mispoke. >>

                                        It's not a case of you having mispoke, I just wanted to clarify my reasons
                                        for my response.

                                        <<Also true. Mine ends at the Urals, but I do know those who end it far
                                        further west.>>

                                        Mine as well, actually. . .

                                        Noemi
                                      • Sharon Smith Hurlburt
                                        ... Indeed. Or chuck accuracy out the window. :) ... If I didn t like leather, I wouldn t be here. :) ... The only thing I m married to (other than the very
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Oct 15, 1999
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                                          At 10:14 AM 10/13/1999 -0500, you wrote:
                                          >At 01:10 AM 10/13/99 -0400, Sharon/Morwenna wrote:
                                          >>>So, I gather the concensus is that we don't have proof for early
                                          >>>period leather vests?
                                          >>
                                          >>That's the impression I'm getting. And while the discussion about the
                                          >>Viking Coats has been interesting, it's not very helpful.
                                          >
                                          >I'm sorry to hear that. History is a difficult lover, and doesn't always
                                          >conform to our desires, so much as forces us to revise our desires to the
                                          >reality of what is.
                                          >

                                          Indeed. Or chuck accuracy out the window. :)

                                          >The Bayeaux Tapestry shows archers wearing what
                                          >looks like a knee length tunic with a full skirt. There is no reason you
                                          >couldn't make one of those from leather. If you don't like leather, you
                                          >could consider quilting, as in a padded gambeson.
                                          >

                                          If I didn't like leather, I wouldn't be here. :)

                                          >If you are married to the idea of a) being truly accurate, and b) something
                                          >that opens in front like a jacket, then perhaps the 11th century isn't for
                                          >you.
                                          >

                                          The only thing I'm married to (other than the very nice gentleman in the
                                          kitchen who's busy making a pizza at this precise moment) is the idea of
                                          protecting my poor bruised cleavage. A vest or bodice seemed the most
                                          sensible way of restraining them. However, a leather tunic is probably a
                                          good way to go. Thanks Marc.

                                          Sharon/Morwenna,
                                          who's off to get a library book


                                          >

                                          "Pound for pound, the fiercest animal in the animal kingdom"



                                          @* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *@
                                          Ealaín Álainn Leathercrafters
                                          Sharon Smith Hurlburt, Proprietrix
                                          Quality Celtic, Modern & Medieval Leatherwork
                                          Custom Orders Welcome
                                          email- <medhbh@...>
                                          Now part of The Mystic Caravan on the Web!
                                          http://mystic-caravan.com
                                          @* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *@
                                        • Varju@aol.com
                                          In a message dated 10/15/1999 2:22:31 PM Mountain Daylight Time, marc-carlson@utulsa.edu writes:
                                          Message 20 of 22 , Oct 15, 1999
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                                            In a message dated 10/15/1999 2:22:31 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
                                            marc-carlson@... writes:

                                            << For the record, Noemi, if you are concerned about things where there is no
                                            evidence for suggestions made, I'll be happy do strip down the "experts" in
                                            almost any field you care to name, to piece together just how *little* real
                                            evidence for anything exists, versus how much is an "educated guess". >>

                                            No need really, I wrote my thesis on ethno-nationalism in Eastern Europe so I
                                            know how little "real" evidence exists for much of anything. :->

                                            I just don't want someone to get the wrong idea and take an "educated guess"
                                            as definite proof of anything. I'm currently trying to work with a person
                                            that did just that when given some advice on recreating clothing and I guess
                                            its just spilling over into other things. . .


                                            Noemi
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