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[medieval-leather] Re: AMs latest shoes

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  • Marc Carlson
    ... I ve uploaded a jpg of the needle I m talking about to the Vault (Mort.jpg). I don t use a needle holder. The cross section of the blade is triangular.
    Message 1 of 25 , Sep 30, 1999
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      Anne-Marie Rousseau wrote:
      > I'm a science geek. I ahve access to more sizes and shapes of suture
      > needles than you can shake a Metzenbaums at.
      > "postmortem" needles come in several types, and sizes, from itsy bitsy >to super big (to my eye...6"?). They some as a straight taper ("harness
      > needle" style) or with either a cutting edge or a reverse cutting >edge.
      > They come as a half circle, or a more crescent shape, there's also >suture needles that do woobldy things called "serpentine".
      >...How small is small? and any idea as to the direction of the cutting
      >edge? What size needle holders do you use?

      I've uploaded a jpg of the needle I'm talking about to the Vault
      (Mort.jpg). I don't use a needle holder. The cross section of
      the blade is triangular. If you can find one with an oval cross
      section, that's even better. (The second best "awl" I've tried for
      this part of sewing is a flattish dental scraping tool)

      Later on this sort of sewing was done with a glover's needle with a
      square cross section (and that may have been how they were done in the
      middle ages - I haven't had much of a chance to examine sewing holes
      on
      uppers for myself -- although I just got my tickets for London today
      :) )

      Marc
    • Anna Troy
      Hi again, I was just wondering if anybody knows of any info in printed or on-line form about how you sew on a last. You guys who learned how to, how did you
      Message 2 of 25 , Oct 1, 1999
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        Hi again, I was just wondering if anybody knows of any info in printed or
        on-line form about how you sew on a last. You guys who learned how to, how
        did you get your info? I'm kind of stuck on that point.

        Thanks in advance and if you've already discussd this in great detail
        please refer me to when and I'll go look it up in the archives.

        Anna




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      • Anna Troy
        A tip. I was at the Museum of London in July and the had Shoes and Pattens on sale for £7.90 You bet I grabbed a copy! If your really lucky mabe they have
        Message 3 of 25 , Oct 1, 1999
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          A tip. I was at the Museum of London in July and the had "Shoes and
          Pattens" on sale for £7.90 You bet I grabbed a copy! If your really lucky
          mabe they have one or two left.

          Anna


          At 00:54 1999-10-01 -0500, you wrote:
          <snip>
          >Later on this sort of sewing was done with a glover's needle with a
          >square cross section (and that may have been how they were done in the
          >middle ages - I haven't had much of a chance to examine sewing holes
          >on
          >uppers for myself -- although I just got my tickets for London today
          >:) )
          >
          >Marc
          >





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        • Marc Carlson
          ... I don t think so. What seems to be the problem? (I m not an expert with a last, but am getting better) Marc
          Message 4 of 25 , Oct 1, 1999
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            At 09:11 AM 10/1/99 +0200, Anna Troy wrote:
            >Hi again, I was just wondering if anybody knows of any info in printed or
            >on-line form about how you sew on a last. You guys who learned how to, how
            >did you get your info? I'm kind of stuck on that point.
            >
            >Thanks in advance and if you've already discussd this in great detail
            >please refer me to when and I'll go look it up in the archives.

            I don't think so. What seems to be the problem? (I'm not an expert with a
            last, but am getting better)

            Marc
          • Anne-Marie Rousseau
            howdy from Anne-Marie ... Cool! A picture really is worth 1000 words, isnt it? :) I m heading to MacPhereson leather tonight to see if they have anything like
            Message 5 of 25 , Oct 1, 1999
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              howdy from Anne-Marie
              Marc sez:
              >I've uploaded a jpg of the needle I'm talking about to the Vault
              >(Mort.jpg). I don't use a needle holder. The cross section of
              >the blade is triangular. If you can find one with an oval cross
              >section, that's even better. (The second best "awl" I've tried for
              >this part of sewing is a flattish dental scraping tool)

              Cool! A picture really is worth 1000 words, isnt it? :) I'm heading to
              MacPhereson leather tonight to see if they have anything like that.

              So it doesnt HAVE a cutting edge? I thought when you said I wanted a
              glovers needle, that I'd want a cutting edge (which would negate the need
              for an awl?)

              >Later on this sort of sewing was done with a glover's needle with a
              >square cross section (and that may have been how they were done in the
              >middle ages - I haven't had much of a chance to examine sewing holes
              >on
              >uppers for myself -- although I just got my tickets for London today
              >:) )
              >

              Lucky duck! Are you going to have a chance to chat with our favorite York
              Archeological guy? :)

              --AM. who goes to Paris next year to look on the underside of furniture in
              the Cluny :)
            • Marc Carlson
              ... Sometimes. Sometimes pictures just confuse the issue, but in this case, it does help. (words AND pictures are a great team) ... This may go back to the
              Message 6 of 25 , Oct 1, 1999
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                >howdy from Anne-Marie
                >Cool! A picture really is worth 1000 words, isnt it? :) I'm heading to
                >MacPhereson leather tonight to see if they have anything like that.

                Sometimes. Sometimes pictures just confuse the issue, but in this case,
                it does help. (words AND pictures are a great team)

                >So it doesnt HAVE a cutting edge? I thought when you said I wanted a
                >glovers needle, that I'd want a cutting edge (which would negate the need
                >for an awl?)

                This may go back to the old difference of opinion about whether awls and
                glover's needles need to merely have a sharp point, or a whole cutting edge
                (the "push the material aside" or "cut the material" schism). At this stage,
                I can not in good conscience say that the other guys are "wrong", but they
                definately use a different technique than I do. I have never used a glover's
                needle or an awl that I could cut myself with, although I have stabbed myself
                with them more often than I care to admit. The fact that most closing awls
                are oval in cross-section suggests that for these stitches, moving the leather
                aside from the hole is acceptable (and considering that there is little enough
                material to work with, keeping as much of it intact makes more sense to me)

                >Lucky duck! Are you going to have a chance to chat with our favorite York
                >Archeological guy? :)

                With any luck, I'm hoping to get to see both Ian and Melanie.

                Marc
              • Anna Troy
                Well basicly I have no idea where to start. I have a fair idea how to make a last but the rest is about as clear as mud. I have some idea that you nail the
                Message 7 of 25 , Oct 1, 1999
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                  Well basicly I have no idea where to start. I have a fair idea how to make
                  a last but the rest is about as clear as mud. I have some idea that you
                  nail the leather top on the last but that's about it. I'm also the kind of
                  person that likes to have fairly good theoretical grasp of how something is
                  done before I start so i have a tendancy to try to read everythign I can
                  get my hands on before I try something new. The best thing would be if I
                  take a course somewhere I suppose. Do they have that kind of thing in the
                  States or England somewhere do you think? I haven't found anything in
                  Sweden yet.

                  Anna, who's next commision will be a pair of viking shoes in exchanges for
                  some archers knees and spaulders.

                  At 09:56 1999-10-01 -0500, you wrote:
                  >
                  >I don't think so. What seems to be the problem? (I'm not an expert with a
                  >last, but am getting better)
                  >
                  >Marc
                  >
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                • Marc Carlson
                  ... There must be something out there. Let me see, go ahead and get what you can from the people around here. I ll send you a zipfile by private mail that has
                  Message 8 of 25 , Oct 1, 1999
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                    At 06:30 PM 10/1/99 +0200, Anna wrote:
                    >Well basicly I have no idea where to start. I have a fair idea how to make
                    >a last but the rest is about as clear as mud. I have some idea that you
                    >nail the leather top on the last but that's about it. I'm also the kind of
                    >person that likes to have fairly good theoretical grasp of how something is
                    >done before I start so i have a tendancy to try to read everythign I can
                    >get my hands on before I try something new. The best thing would be if I
                    >take a course somewhere I suppose. Do they have that kind of thing in the
                    >States or England somewhere do you think? I haven't found anything in
                    >Sweden yet.

                    There must be something out there.

                    Let me see, go ahead and get what you can from the people around here.
                    I'll send
                    you a zipfile by private mail that has some of the material that hasn't
                    gotten posted
                    to my shoe site (I only sent it to him on the 12th) yet. Then we'll ask
                    about shoes in
                    Sweden for you.

                    Marc
                  • Uilliam@aol.com
                    In a message dated 10/01/99 02:13:03 AM, you wrote:
                    Message 9 of 25 , Oct 2, 1999
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                      In a message dated 10/01/99 02:13:03 AM, you wrote:

                      <<Hi again, I was just wondering if anybody knows of any info in printed or
                      on-line form about how you sew on a last. You guys who learned how to, how
                      did you get your info? I'm kind of stuck on that point.>>

                      Look for a copy of R. A. Salaman's Dictionary of Leatherworking Tools from
                      1700-1950. Has some good illustrations of techniques used to sew on lasts.

                      I learned from a class that was offered at a SCA collegium about 4 years ago.
                      I usually tack the sole to the bottom of the last then last the closed upper
                      over the sole by lacing it onto the last. After the upper is dry I remove the
                      lacing and trim the lasting margin flush with the sole. I will usually place
                      several "basting" (make a hole with your awl and pass a short lenght of
                      thread through the hole and tye an slip knot) threads around the sole to hold
                      the upper in plase while I sew it to the sole. If your last has a hole in it
                      for use on a last stand use that. If not make a strap about one inch wide and
                      about one foot longer than twice the heigth of your knee from the floor in a
                      seated position with a buckle at one end. Buckle the strap and place it over
                      the last which is placed on your knees. The lower end of the loop is placed
                      over a short board that is held down by your feet thus exerting pressure on
                      the last which hold it firmly to your knees. This method work quite well and
                      allows you adjust the last to whatever angle you need for the stitching
                      process. Hope this is helpful

                      Uilliam
                    • Tanglust@aol.com
                      Kind Gentles, I am new to this list and have a question.....What is a Last? Tanglust
                      Message 10 of 25 , Oct 4, 1999
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                        Kind Gentles,

                        I am new to this list and have a question.....What is a Last?

                        Tanglust
                      • Anna Troy
                        A last is usually a block of wood that has been shaped after the inner shape of the shoe wanted. The leather is then sewn together on the last. Anna ...
                        Message 11 of 25 , Oct 4, 1999
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                          A last is usually a block of wood that has been shaped after the inner
                          shape of the shoe wanted. The leather is then sewn together on the last.

                          Anna

                          At 14:41 1999-10-04 -0400, you wrote:
                          >Kind Gentles,
                          >
                          >I am new to this list and have a question.....What is a Last?
                          >
                          >Tanglust
                          >
                          >------------------------------------------------------------------------
                          >
                          >eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/medieval-leather
                          >http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >




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                          "Anna's Crafts Links Page" has MOVED! to
                          http://hem.fyristorg.com/owly/crafts

                          "The Shire of Aros"
                          http://hem.passagen.se/owly/index2.html
                        • Marc Carlson
                          ... Or, it can be used to stretch out a previously made shoe as well... Marc
                          Message 12 of 25 , Oct 4, 1999
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                            Anna Troy wrote:
                            > A last is usually a block of wood that has been shaped after the inner
                            > shape of the shoe wanted. The leather is then sewn together on the > last.

                            Or, it can be used to stretch out a previously made shoe as well...

                            Marc
                          • Tim Bray
                            RE: Marc s response re: attaching straps with the S&P method: I did this on the last pair of shoes I made for Keegan - don t know if you got a good look at
                            Message 13 of 25 , Oct 16, 1999
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                              RE: Marc's response re: attaching straps with the S&P method:
                              I did this on the last pair of shoes I made for Keegan - don't know if you
                              got a good look at them at Peronne. Works great. I cut the end in a sort
                              of spade- shape to make it easier to push through the slit. Much faster
                              and easier than stitching. Maybe that's why they did it?

                              I also do this for belt buckles now. Not only easier than stitching, it's
                              also easier to undo if you need to repair or replace the buckle. No more
                              rivets! Yay!

                              In case it's not clear, you make a small slit in the strap, about where you
                              would have been stitching the end down, and then you push the end of the
                              strap through the slit (after going around the buckle, of course). The
                              barbed end catches and holds on the back side of the strap.

                              You also use this method to attach the straps themselves to the shoes.
                              Both straps - the one with the buckle and the one that goes through it.

                              Once you get the hang of cutting the barbs and slits, this is really fast
                              and just, well, cool.

                              Tim


                              >>also, any ideas on how to attatch the buckles? I figure I need to sew the
                              >>leather bits on, but on the inside, or the outside?
                              >
                              >Maybe not (although sewing makes a lot of sense). If you look at the
                              >examples in
                              >S&P, the leather pits usually slip through a slit in the upper, and once
                              >inside
                              >they expand. The one I was looking at last night was
                              > __________
                              > ________________\ |
                              > ________________ |
                              > /_________|
                              >
                              >Or something to that effect.
                              >
                              >The theory is that the wider leather won't pull through the upper (although
                              >to be honest, I'd
                              >be inclined to toss in a couple of the same whip stitches from above to
                              >hold things down). In
                              >some of the German boots they do the sewing down also.
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