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[medieval-leather] Re: Medieval Bombards

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  • esf5 -user
    Send reply to: medieval-leather@egroups.com Date sent: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 15:30:41 -0400 From: rmhowe Organization:
    Message 1 of 22 , Jun 4 3:20 AM
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      Send reply to: medieval-leather@egroups.com
      Date sent: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 15:30:41 -0400
      From: rmhowe <magnusm@...>
      Organization: Windmaster's Hill, Atlantia, and the GDH
      To: medieval-leather@egroups.com
      Subject: [medieval-leather] Re: Medieval Bombards

      > Gregory Stapleton wrote:
      > >
      > > Sorry for any confusion, :)
      > >
      > > The Bombard I am referring to is a leather "pitcher" that holds anywhere
      > > >from
      > > about a quart to several gallons of liquid refreshment.
      > >
      > > Gregory Stapleton
      > >
      > > <snipage>
      > > >
      > > > just an interested question: what do you mean by this bombard
      > > > you are talking about? I suppose the earliest form of a cannon, but
      > > > correct me if I'm wrong.
      > > >
      > > > Greetings,
      > > >
      > > > Arno Luyendijk
      >
      > This is not to say that there weren't leather cannons, because there
      > were. They were mostly lightweight attempts at field artillery pieces
      > and were even used in early colonial America.
      >
      > Magnus
      >
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      Thanks for the information, Magnus and Gregory.

      Arno Luyendijk/EldirAsmundsson





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    • aekathan@execpc.com
      ... I cannot discuss this from a documentation standpoint, I don t have any at hand beyond Baker. Given the shape of bottles, is there any way to make with a
      Message 2 of 22 , Jun 4 5:46 AM
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        At 05:23 PM 7/4/99 -0400, Gregory Stapleton wrote:

        >Hey, Corin,
        >I've made numerous "Mary Rose"-style bottles in this fashion, and I believe,
        >without having tried it on a bombard, that it would work as well. The
        >questions I have are this:
        >1) During the Medieval period, do we have any evidence that sand packing
        >was how these vessels were formed? If so, what is that evidence /
        >documentation (because I desperately want it!) ?
        I cannot discuss this from a documentation standpoint, I don't have any
        at hand beyond Baker. Given the shape of bottles, is there any way
        to make with a rigid mold?

        >2) Having done a lot of sand packed vessels, I know that it is a time
        >consuming, inefficient method of mass production. Where as molding the
        >leather on reusable molds is very efficient.

        I am curious why you believe sand-packing to be inefficient compared to
        re-usable molds. Sand is cheap and plentiful. Sand can be left in place
        without holding up the molding of other vessels (parallel processing, as
        it were). Both sand and wood molding require leaving the molding material
        in place for some hours while the leather at least partially dries.
        While wood was cheap, a wooden mold would require the
        services of a turner and molding several vessels at once would require
        several molds.

        Yours in the search for enlightenment,
        --Corin


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      • aekathan@execpc.com
        ... Peter, Did you really force the sand? I was quite surprised, in making a bottle, at how much give the cased leather had. Perhaps, though, the method is
        Message 3 of 22 , Jun 4 5:53 AM
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          At 05:47 PM 6/3/99 -0400, you wrote:
          >Experiments in sand forming a balustre shaped mug were fruitless, as
          >they made an asymettrical an really rather shapeless mug.
          > Peter
          Peter,
          Did you really force the sand? I was quite surprised, in making a bottle,
          at how much give the cased leather had. Perhaps, though, the method is
          better suited to a vessel with a narrow opening or neck.
          --Corin



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        • aekathan@execpc.com
          ... I had to look it up. I believe that he is referring to the wide-bottomed mug. Minus the handle, it looks like an inverted vase. --Corin ... eGroups.com
          Message 4 of 22 , Jun 4 5:55 AM
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            At 06:36 PM 6/3/99 -0500, you wrote:
            >Greetings,
            >
            >>Experiments in sand forming a balustre shaped mug were fruitless, as
            >>they made an asymettrical an really rather shapeless mug.
            >
            >What is a balustre?
            >
            >Tadhg
            I had to look it up. I believe that he is referring to the wide-bottomed
            mug. Minus the handle, it looks like an inverted vase.
            --Corin


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          • Peter Adams
            Corin, The problem lay not with stretching the leather, that went fine. However, the specific object I was trying to reproduce was radially symettrical (that
            Message 5 of 22 , Jun 4 9:25 AM
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              Corin,
              The problem lay not with stretching the leather, that went fine.
              However, the specific object I was trying to reproduce was radially
              symettrical (that is, it looked like it fit over a lathe turned core),
              and the sand filled and shaped the leather nicely at the seam by the
              handle. However, opposite the handle, the leather did not stretch in
              the same contours. I found sand to work nicely in a costrel and a
              bottle, as you did, though when I was at the harness maker at
              williamsburg, he had a wooden last that looked just like the inside of
              the a costrel, and a photo I took at the Mary Rose museum shows a bottle
              with a single seam (like a jug) that appears from the sharp shoulders to
              have been molded.
              Tahg, a "balustre" or "balustre" is a pot bellied stove shape,
              represented in many medieval periods. Some are short and fat, some are
              tall and thin.

              Peter




              aekathan@... wrote:
              >
              > At 05:47 PM 6/3/99 -0400, you wrote:
              > >Experiments in sand forming a balustre shaped mug were fruitless, as
              > >they made an asymettrical an really rather shapeless mug.
              > > Peter
              > Peter,
              > Did you really force the sand? I was quite surprised, in making a bottle,
              > at how much give the cased leather had. Perhaps, though, the method is
              > better suited to a vessel with a narrow opening or neck.
              > --Corin
              >
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            • Gregory Stapleton
              Hey, Corin, good questions! ... There sure is! :) Just need to think in 3 parts: positive and negative. I ve not tried it yet for Mary Rose bottles, but I
              Message 6 of 22 , Jun 4 2:18 PM
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                Hey, Corin, good questions!

                > I cannot discuss this from a documentation standpoint, I don't have any
                > at hand beyond Baker. Given the shape of bottles, is there any way
                > to make with a rigid mold?

                There sure is! :) Just need to think in 3 parts: positive and negative.
                I've not
                tried it yet for Mary Rose bottles, but I will within the next week or two.
                What I'm
                going to do is make a positive internal mold(i.e. a mold that will be the
                3-d shape
                of my desired bottle, in this case a 'Mary Rose'-type. Then make two
                negative molds
                (i.e. think of picture frames, with the profile of the internal mold cut
                from their center.
                Then, I'll wet my leather real good, tack a piece down on of the negative
                molds, place
                the positive mold inbetween them and then clamp them together. Once the
                leather dries,
                I'll remove it from the negative molds, trim it up and sew the halves
                together.
                At least this is the theogy. We'll soon see if it holds up in practice.

                > I am curious why you believe sand-packing to be inefficient compared to
                > re-usable molds. Sand is cheap and plentiful. Sand can be left in place
                > without holding up the molding of other vessels (parallel processing, as
                > it were). Both sand and wood molding require leaving the molding material
                > in place for some hours while the leather at least partially dries.
                > While wood was cheap, a wooden mold would require the
                > services of a turner and molding several vessels at once would require
                > several molds.


                Ok, to a point you are perfectly correct. Let's look at it from another
                perspective.
                First, to do a Mary rose bottle of any size, it usually takes me about
                anywhere from 1/2-
                to 1-hour to get one packed to my liking. Then I've got to let it set up
                for a day or so to dry.
                Following this, I have a devil of a time getting the sand out, which takes
                me another 1/2 hour or so,
                and I never do get them totally cleaned out to my liking.

                I can carve a set of molds, consisting of: one internal mold and two
                exterior molds in one to two hours,
                using period tools. Or, I can shop this out and have someone else do it for
                me for pay or in trade. :)
                Once I have a dozen or so molds, I can bring a dozen bottles to the same
                state of preparedness that it
                takes me to sand-pack one bottle. When these have dried, and they tend to
                dry quicker, because the wood
                is pulling moisture from them better than the sand does, I don't have to
                clean sand out of them, so I've
                saved even more time and effort. This time and effort can go into making
                other items for sale.

                So, initially, there 'appears' to be a major investment in producing the
                molds, but it is rapidly returned
                in increased production, and production of a higher standard.

                Further discussion appreciated. :)

                Gregory Stapleton


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              • Josette Carpenter
                Ah Greg, Is there a reason why your emails are dated for July instead of June? Josette ... eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/medieval-leather
                Message 7 of 22 , Jun 4 7:09 PM
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                  Ah Greg,

                  Is there a reason why your emails are dated for July instead of June?

                  Josette

                  --- Gregory Stapleton <gregsta@...> wrote:
                  > >
                  >
                  >------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  > > On the other hand, it seems to me that the bombard
                  > is a very good
                  > > candidate
                  > > for the sand-forming method. I haven't tried it
                  > on something the
                  > > size of a
                  > > bombard, but, it looks to me as if the bombard is
                  > essentially a
                  > > cylinder with
                  > > a handle formed by sewing down a triangle. After
                  > the bottom is
                  > > sewn in, the
                  > > area that has the most "give" is the middle. Case
                  > it, stuff it
                  > > with sand, and
                  > > use a wooden rod to force the leather in the
                  > middle to stretch as far as
                  > > possible.
                  > > Wasn't Matt Larsen trying this recently?
                  > > --Corin
                  >
                  >
                  > Hey, Corin,
                  > I've made numerous "Mary Rose"-style bottles in this
                  > fashion, and I believe,
                  > without having tried it on a bombard, that it would
                  > work as well. The
                  > questions I have are this:
                  > 1) During the Medieval period, do we have any
                  > evidence that sand packing
                  > was how these vessels were formed? If so, what is
                  > that evidence /
                  > documentation (because I desperately want it!) ?
                  >
                  > 2) Having done a lot of sand packed vessels, I know
                  > that it is a time
                  > consuming, inefficient method of mass production.
                  > Where as molding the
                  > leather on reusable molds is very efficient.
                  > Wouldn't the Medieval
                  > Craftsman have used the more efficient method? I
                  > know that they were doing
                  > molded bottles and jacks, per Oliver, _Black Jacks
                  > and Leather Bottles_, for
                  > example.
                  >
                  > Looking forward to further discussion.
                  >
                  > Gregory Stapleton
                  >
                  >
                  >
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                  >
                  >
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                  >
                  >

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                • Gregory Stapleton
                  I m seeing them as being 6/4/99, are you seeing 7/4/99? I checked my local clock/calender and it s dated correctly. Gregory ... eGroups.com home:
                  Message 8 of 22 , Jun 4 7:18 PM
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                    I'm seeing them as being 6/4/99, are you seeing 7/4/99? I checked my local
                    clock/calender and it's dated correctly.

                    Gregory

                    > -----Original Message-----
                    > From: Josette Carpenter [mailto:dyfwn@...]
                    > Sent: Friday, June 04, 1999 10:09 PM
                    > To: medieval-leather@egroups.com
                    > Subject: [medieval-leather] Re: Medieval Bombards
                    >
                    >
                    > Ah Greg,
                    >
                    > Is there a reason why your emails are dated for July instead of June?
                    >
                    > Josette
                    >
                    > --- Gregory Stapleton <gregsta@...> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > >------------------------------------------------------------------------
                    > > > On the other hand, it seems to me that the bombard
                    > > is a very good
                    > > > candidate
                    > > > for the sand-forming method. I haven't tried it
                    > > on something the
                    > > > size of a
                    > > > bombard, but, it looks to me as if the bombard is
                    > > essentially a
                    > > > cylinder with
                    > > > a handle formed by sewing down a triangle. After
                    > > the bottom is
                    > > > sewn in, the
                    > > > area that has the most "give" is the middle. Case
                    > > it, stuff it
                    > > > with sand, and
                    > > > use a wooden rod to force the leather in the
                    > > middle to stretch as far as
                    > > > possible.
                    > > > Wasn't Matt Larsen trying this recently?
                    > > > --Corin
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Hey, Corin,
                    > > I've made numerous "Mary Rose"-style bottles in this
                    > > fashion, and I believe,
                    > > without having tried it on a bombard, that it would
                    > > work as well. The
                    > > questions I have are this:
                    > > 1) During the Medieval period, do we have any
                    > > evidence that sand packing
                    > > was how these vessels were formed? If so, what is
                    > > that evidence /
                    > > documentation (because I desperately want it!) ?
                    > >
                    > > 2) Having done a lot of sand packed vessels, I know
                    > > that it is a time
                    > > consuming, inefficient method of mass production.
                    > > Where as molding the
                    > > leather on reusable molds is very efficient.
                    > > Wouldn't the Medieval
                    > > Craftsman have used the more efficient method? I
                    > > know that they were doing
                    > > molded bottles and jacks, per Oliver, _Black Jacks
                    > > and Leather Bottles_, for
                    > > example.
                    > >
                    > > Looking forward to further discussion.
                    > >
                    > > Gregory Stapleton
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                    > > BrainPlay.com has all of your favorite Star Wars
                    > > action figures,
                    > > toys, video games and more. See details inside on
                    > > how to receive a
                    > > FREE Star Wars Action Figure! “Feel the Force” today
                    > > with
                    > > BrainPlay.com at:
                    > > http://clickhere.egroups.com/click/321
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > eGroups.com home:
                    > > http://www.egroups.com/group/medieval-leather
                    > > http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group
                    > > communications
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
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