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Re: [medieval-leather] Fw: Re: [Ancientartifacts] Re: Leonardo Da Vinci: Bag Designer.....

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  • Ginny Phillips
    That s a neat video, and a beautiful bag. The video doesn t go into much detail about how the decoration is done, though. I also wonder how much it can be true
    Message 1 of 13 , Jan 12, 2012
    • 0 Attachment
      That's a neat video, and a beautiful bag.
      The video doesn't go into much detail about how the decoration is done, though. I also wonder how much it can be true to real Renaissance leatherworking, since leatherworkers in Leonardo's era did not have access to chrome-tanned leather. This seems to be more "in the style of Leonardo" than an attempt at historical reproduction. Thoughts?


      Gillian



      ________________________________
      From: Henry Plouse <ozymandias1951@...>
      To: Shire of Glyndwfn <glyndwfn@yahoogroups.com>; Myrtleholt e-group address <myrtleholt_shire@yahoogroups.com>; Marcher Baronies ELIST <the-marches@yahoogroups.com>; Shire of Briaroak <shireofbriaroak@yahoogroups.com>; medieval-leather@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2012 12:01 AM
      Subject: [medieval-leather] Fw: Re: [Ancientartifacts] Re: Leonardo Da Vinci: Bag Designer.....


       
      At the bottom of this posting is the original article on the Da Vinci bag which I reposted from my antiquarian group initially.  The upper part of the posting is a video another member of that group just sent, documenting a reconstruction of the bag.  Beautiful - and a wonderful intro to the type of decorative techniques used in Renaissance leatherworking.
       
      YOS,
      ALRIC

       
      VIDEO Reposting: 
       
       

      This may be of interest! Found on youtube, Italian copy video. James
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96ZESWW6_0M
      -

      ARTICLE Reposting

       >
      > > I have shared this around and wanted to share it here in this group too:
      > >
      > > http://news.discovery.com/history/leonardo-da-vinci-bag-design-120109.html
      > >
      > >

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Gregory G. Stapleton
      Oh, definitely. For a more period reproduction, I’d use goat skin. I’d also like some more information on the decoration. Plus, I don’t think, in
      Message 2 of 13 , Jan 12, 2012
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        Oh, definitely. For a more period reproduction, I’d use goat skin. I’d also like some more information on the decoration. Plus, I don’t think, in period, that it would have had the stiffener that he used (cardboard in his case, wood in period). I think Leonardo’s would have been a “soft” purse. Again, I don’t think they were going for a reproduction, but as you said, “in the style of Leonardo.” Even so, I give them kudos for that! J It is a beautiful bag.



        Gregory Stapleton / Gawain Kilgore



        From: medieval-leather@yahoogroups.com [mailto:medieval-leather@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ginny Phillips
        Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2012 8:21 AM
        To: medieval-leather@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [medieval-leather] Fw: Re: [Ancientartifacts] Re: Leonardo Da Vinci: Bag Designer.....





        That's a neat video, and a beautiful bag.
        The video doesn't go into much detail about how the decoration is done, though. I also wonder how much it can be true to real Renaissance leatherworking, since leatherworkers in Leonardo's era did not have access to chrome-tanned leather. This seems to be more "in the style of Leonardo" than an attempt at historical reproduction. Thoughts?

        Gillian

        <snipage>





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Henry Plouse
        For sure, there are likely distinctions between this piece and anything likely to have been made in Leonardo s time (note, if nothing else, the sewing
        Message 3 of 13 , Jan 12, 2012
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          For sure, there are likely distinctions between this piece and anything likely to have been made in Leonardo's time (note, if nothing else, the sewing machine...).  However, the handling of the applique on the front was fascinating - I had assumed, from the illustration, that it was carved decoration, but, instead, it was applique with various folding and filling techniques (which actually encouraged me, since I've used similar techniques in my own work, albeit not nearly so elaborately).  The fact that it so closely approximated the image left by Leonardo impressed me that it likely was a correct (at least permissible) technique.
           
          I don't know how much difference the "Chrome tan" vs. "Veg tanned" issue would account for.  With proper processing, veg tanned leather can be made very supple, certainly adequate to accommodate the techniques shown.  That said, I prefer to use chrome tanned leather, myself, secure with the "Creative" portion of our "Anachronism" title.  If I need to mold or carve or harden, etc., then, of course, I'll use veg tanned, but I see no reason to use it exclusively (not when I have rubberized soles on my suede boots).
           
          YOS,
          ALRIC
           

          --- On Thu, 1/12/12, Gregory G. Stapleton <gregsta@...> wrote:


          From: Gregory G. Stapleton <gregsta@...>
          Subject: [medieval-leather] Re: Leonardo Da Vinci: Bag Designer.....
          To: medieval-leather@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Thursday, January 12, 2012, 5:59 AM



           



          Oh, definitely. For a more period reproduction, I’d use goat skin. I’d also like some more information on the decoration. Plus, I don’t think, in period, that it would have had the stiffener that he used (cardboard in his case, wood in period). I think Leonardo’s would have been a “soft” purse. Again, I don’t think they were going for a reproduction, but as you said, “in the style of Leonardo.” Even so, I give them kudos for that! J It is a beautiful bag.

          Gregory Stapleton / Gawain Kilgore

          From: medieval-leather@yahoogroups.com [mailto:medieval-leather@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ginny Phillips
          Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2012 8:21 AM
          To: medieval-leather@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [medieval-leather] Fw: Re: [Ancientartifacts] Re: Leonardo Da Vinci: Bag Designer.....

          That's a neat video, and a beautiful bag.
          The video doesn't go into much detail about how the decoration is done, though. I also wonder how much it can be true to real Renaissance leatherworking, since leatherworkers in Leonardo's era did not have access to chrome-tanned leather. This seems to be more "in the style of Leonardo" than an attempt at historical reproduction. Thoughts?

          Gillian

          <snipage>

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]








          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • barry hicks
          Wow. I have such a different idea of how that bag was constructed and what it looked like. I m going to make one just to see how it compares with that one. Boy
          Message 4 of 13 , Jan 12, 2012
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            Wow. I have such a different idea of how that bag was constructed and what it looked like. I'm going to make one just to see how it compares with that one. Boy it is very different. Interesting. Now I really need to make one.

            Barry

            --- In medieval-leather@yahoogroups.com, Henry Plouse <ozymandias1951@...> wrote:
            >
            > For sure, there are likely distinctions between this piece and anything likely to have been made in Leonardo's time (note, if nothing else, the sewing machine...).  However, the handling of the applique on the front was fascinating - I had assumed, from the illustration, that it was carved decoration, but, instead, it was applique with various folding and filling techniques (which actually encouraged me, since I've used similar techniques in my own work, albeit not nearly so elaborately).  The fact that it so closely approximated the image left by Leonardo impressed me that it likely was a correct (at least permissible) technique.
            >  
            > I don't know how much difference the "Chrome tan" vs. "Veg tanned" issue would account for.  With proper processing, veg tanned leather can be made very supple, certainly adequate to accommodate the techniques shown.  That said, I prefer to use chrome tanned leather, myself, secure with the "Creative" portion of our "Anachronism" title.  If I need to mold or carve or harden, etc., then, of course, I'll use veg tanned, but I see no reason to use it exclusively (not when I have rubberized soles on my suede boots).
            >  
            > YOS,
            > ALRIC
            >  
            >
            > --- On Thu, 1/12/12, Gregory G. Stapleton <gregsta@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > From: Gregory G. Stapleton <gregsta@...>
            > Subject: [medieval-leather] Re: Leonardo Da Vinci: Bag Designer.....
            > To: medieval-leather@yahoogroups.com
            > Date: Thursday, January 12, 2012, 5:59 AM
            >
            >
            >
            >  
            >
            >
            >
            > Oh, definitely. For a more period reproduction, I’d use goat skin. I’d also like some more information on the decoration. Plus, I don’t think, in period, that it would have had the stiffener that he used (cardboard in his case, wood in period). I think Leonardo’s would have been a “soft” purse. Again, I don’t think they were going for a reproduction, but as you said, “in the style of Leonardo.” Even so, I give them kudos for that! J It is a beautiful bag.
            >
            > Gregory Stapleton / Gawain Kilgore
            >
            > From: medieval-leather@yahoogroups.com [mailto:medieval-leather@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ginny Phillips
            > Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2012 8:21 AM
            > To: medieval-leather@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: Re: [medieval-leather] Fw: Re: [Ancientartifacts] Re: Leonardo Da Vinci: Bag Designer.....
            >
            > That's a neat video, and a beautiful bag.
            > The video doesn't go into much detail about how the decoration is done, though. I also wonder how much it can be true to real Renaissance leatherworking, since leatherworkers in Leonardo's era did not have access to chrome-tanned leather. This seems to be more "in the style of Leonardo" than an attempt at historical reproduction. Thoughts?
            >
            > Gillian
            >
            > <snipage>
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
          • Henry Plouse
            For sure, it was different from what I expected, fully expecting that the detailing was either carved or stamped (typical in most SCA repro s and a subject of
            Message 5 of 13 , Jan 12, 2012
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              For sure, it was different from what I expected, fully expecting that the detailing was either carved or stamped (typical in most SCA repro's and a subject of recent discussion on this forum).  However, and as noted, it did employ an applique technique which I've been using for years (tho' mine were less elaborate), based, in truth, on old leather bookbinding techniques.  That gives me confidence to continue with my own decorative techniques and to expand them.  I also note that the technique used helps explain some of the detailing I've seen in old, Renaissance era paintings (which, again, I had assumed reflected carved/stamped decoration, tho' that didn't quite seem adequate to explain the appearance).
               
              I'm still trying to figure out the clasp system(s).  Any notions from the group?

              And, yeah, we ALL wanna make our version of this puppy.  I mean, c'mon - "Design by Da Vinci"?  What could be better?  To heck with you, Louis Vuitton! 
               
              YOS,
              ALRIC
               
              --- On Thu, 1/12/12, barry hicks <barryehicks@...> wrote:


              From: barry hicks <barryehicks@...>
              Subject: [medieval-leather] Re: Leonardo Da Vinci: Bag Designer.....
              To: medieval-leather@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Thursday, January 12, 2012, 9:56 AM



               



              Wow. I have such a different idea of how that bag was constructed and what it looked like. I'm going to make one just to see how it compares with that one. Boy it is very different. Interesting. Now I really need to make one.

              Barry

              --- In medieval-leather@yahoogroups.com, Henry Plouse <ozymandias1951@...> wrote:
              >
              > For sure, there are likely distinctions between this piece and anything likely to have been made in Leonardo's time (note, if nothing else, the sewing machine...).  However, the handling of the applique on the front was fascinating - I had assumed, from the illustration, that it was carved decoration, but, instead, it was applique with various folding and filling techniques (which actually encouraged me, since I've used similar techniques in my own work, albeit not nearly so elaborately).  The fact that it so closely approximated the image left by Leonardo impressed me that it likely was a correct (at least permissible) technique.
              >  
              > I don't know how much difference the "Chrome tan" vs. "Veg tanned" issue would account for.  With proper processing, veg tanned leather can be made very supple, certainly adequate to accommodate the techniques shown.  That said, I prefer to use chrome tanned leather, myself, secure with the "Creative" portion of our "Anachronism" title.  If I need to mold or carve or harden, etc., then, of course, I'll use veg tanned, but I see no reason to use it exclusively (not when I have rubberized soles on my suede boots).
              >  
              > YOS,
              > ALRIC
              >  
              >
              > --- On Thu, 1/12/12, Gregory G. Stapleton <gregsta@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > From: Gregory G. Stapleton <gregsta@...>
              > Subject: [medieval-leather] Re: Leonardo Da Vinci: Bag Designer.....
              > To: medieval-leather@yahoogroups.com
              > Date: Thursday, January 12, 2012, 5:59 AM
              >
              >
              >
              >  
              >
              >
              >
              > Oh, definitely. For a more period reproduction, I’d use goat skin. I’d also like some more information on the decoration. Plus, I don’t think, in period, that it would have had the stiffener that he used (cardboard in his case, wood in period). I think Leonardo’s would have been a “soft” purse. Again, I don’t think they were going for a reproduction, but as you said, “in the style of Leonardo.” Even so, I give them kudos for that! J It is a beautiful bag.
              >
              > Gregory Stapleton / Gawain Kilgore
              >
              > From: medieval-leather@yahoogroups.com [mailto:medieval-leather@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ginny Phillips
              > Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2012 8:21 AM
              > To: medieval-leather@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: Re: [medieval-leather] Fw: Re: [Ancientartifacts] Re: Leonardo Da Vinci: Bag Designer.....
              >
              > That's a neat video, and a beautiful bag.
              > The video doesn't go into much detail about how the decoration is done, though. I also wonder how much it can be true to real Renaissance leatherworking, since leatherworkers in Leonardo's era did not have access to chrome-tanned leather. This seems to be more "in the style of Leonardo" than an attempt at historical reproduction. Thoughts?
              >
              > Gillian
              >
              > <snipage>
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >








              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Michael Hurley
              ... Honestly, it s less chrome tanned vs. veg. tanned. It s more chrome tanned vs. alum tawed. The technique of infusing the skin with chrome salts that we
              Message 6 of 13 , Jan 12, 2012
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                On Jan 12, 2012, at 11:04 AM, Henry Plouse wrote:
                > I don't know how much difference the "Chrome tan" vs. "Veg tanned"
                > issue would account for. With proper processing, veg tanned leather
                > can be made very supple, certainly adequate to accommodate the
                > techniques shown. That said, I prefer to use chrome tanned leather,
                > myself, secure with the "Creative" portion of our "Anachronism"
                > title. If I need to mold or carve or harden, etc., then, of course,
                > I'll use veg tanned, but I see no reason to use it exclusively (not
                > when I have rubberized soles on my suede boots).

                Honestly, it's less chrome tanned vs. veg. tanned. It's more chrome
                tanned vs. alum tawed. The technique of infusing the skin with chrome
                salts that we call chrome tanning is not that far off from the use of
                aluminum salts to infuse the skin as used in the middle ages. It's
                just that the chrome salts are easier to use and far more water
                resistant. Both techniques are properly tawing, though.
                --
                Auf wiedersehen!
                Michael
                ______________________________________________________
                "..Um..Something strange happened to me this morning."

                "Was it a dream where you see yourself standing in sort
                of Sun God robes on a pyramid with a thousand naked
                women screaming and throwing little pickles at you?"

                "..No."

                "Why am I the only person that has that dream?"

                -Real Genius
              • Ginny Phillips
                I ve worked with both chome tanned (or tawed) and alum tawed leather, and I find a fairly significant difference in the way each of them can be stitched. In my
                Message 7 of 13 , Jan 12, 2012
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                  I've worked with both chome tanned (or tawed) and alum tawed leather, and I find a fairly significant difference in the way each of them can be stitched.
                  In my experience, many folks who try to replicate medieval stitching methods become frustrated with chrome tanned leather. Often they are unaware that stitches that are very difficult with modern leather preserved with chrome salts are much easier when using vegetable-tanned or alum tawed.

                  I need to learn more about the chemistry and processes! It certainly makes sense to me that there would be a similarity between aluminum salts and chrome salts and the way they work. Why is chrome-tanning more or less permanent, while alum-tawing is unstable and suffers from exposure to moisture?


                  I try to encourage the use of vegetable-tanned leather for most medieval applications, and chrome-tanned for only those times when choice is limited due to financial or availability issues. Alum-tawed is hard to find, and prohibitively expensive most of the time.

                  Fascinating discussion, folks!

                  Gillian


                  ________________________________
                  From: Michael Hurley <mephit@...>
                  To: medieval-leather@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2012 6:19 PM
                  Subject: Re: [medieval-leather] Re: Leonardo Da Vinci: Bag Designer.....


                   
                  On Jan 12, 2012, at 11:04 AM, Henry Plouse wrote:
                  > I don't know how much difference the "Chrome tan" vs. "Veg tanned"
                  > issue would account for. With proper processing, veg tanned leather
                  > can be made very supple, certainly adequate to accommodate the
                  > techniques shown. That said, I prefer to use chrome tanned leather,
                  > myself, secure with the "Creative" portion of our "Anachronism"
                  > title. If I need to mold or carve or harden, etc., then, of course,
                  > I'll use veg tanned, but I see no reason to use it exclusively (not
                  > when I have rubberized soles on my suede boots).

                  Honestly, it's less chrome tanned vs. veg. tanned. It's more chrome
                  tanned vs. alum tawed. The technique of infusing the skin with chrome
                  salts that we call chrome tanning is not that far off from the use of
                  aluminum salts to infuse the skin as used in the middle ages. It's
                  just that the chrome salts are easier to use and far more water
                  resistant. Both techniques are properly tawing, though.
                  --
                  Auf wiedersehen!
                  Michael
                  ______________________________________________________
                  "..Um..Something strange happened to me this morning."

                  "Was it a dream where you see yourself standing in sort
                  of Sun God robes on a pyramid with a thousand naked
                  women screaming and throwing little pickles at you?"

                  "..No."

                  "Why am I the only person that has that dream?"

                  -Real Genius



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • James Barker
                  I would not assume Leonardo s drawing is showing applique; while there are minor examples of leather applique through the middle ages what is far more common
                  Message 8 of 13 , Jan 13, 2012
                  • 0 Attachment
                    I would not assume Leonardo's drawing is showing applique; while there are minor examples of leather applique through the middle ages what is far more common in extant leather finds dated to the Renaissance is embroidery. Embroidered leather bags, gloves, and doublet examples exist in many museums. I find it more prudent to assume it is embroidery with so many examples over applique which we lack an extant time frame example of.




                    James


                    > To: medieval-leather@yahoogroups.com
                    > From: ozymandias1951@...
                    > Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 09:04:31 -0800
                    > Subject: Re: [medieval-leather] Re: Leonardo Da Vinci: Bag Designer.....
                    >
                    > For sure, there are likely distinctions between this piece and anything likely to have been made in Leonardo's time (note, if nothing else, the sewing machine...). However, the handling of the applique on the front was fascinating - I had assumed, from the illustration, that it was carved decoration, but, instead, it was applique with various folding and filling techniques (which actually encouraged me, since I've used similar techniques in my own work, albeit not nearly so elaborately). The fact that it so closely approximated the image left by Leonardo impressed me that it likely was a correct (at least permissible) technique.
                    >
                    > I don't know how much difference the "Chrome tan" vs. "Veg tanned" issue would account for. With proper processing, veg tanned leather can be made very supple, certainly adequate to accommodate the techniques shown. That said, I prefer to use chrome tanned leather, myself, secure with the "Creative" portion of our "Anachronism" title. If I need to mold or carve or harden, etc., then, of course, I'll use veg tanned, but I see no reason to use it exclusively (not when I have rubberized soles on my suede boots).
                    >
                    > YOS,
                    > ALRIC
                    >
                    >
                    > --- On Thu, 1/12/12, Gregory G. Stapleton <gregsta@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > From: Gregory G. Stapleton <gregsta@...>
                    > Subject: [medieval-leather] Re: Leonardo Da Vinci: Bag Designer.....
                    > To: medieval-leather@yahoogroups.com
                    > Date: Thursday, January 12, 2012, 5:59 AM
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Oh, definitely. For a more period reproduction, I�d use goat skin. I�d also like some more information on the decoration. Plus, I don�t think, in period, that it would have had the stiffener that he used (cardboard in his case, wood in period). I think Leonardo�s would have been a �soft� purse. Again, I don�t think they were going for a reproduction, but as you said, �in the style of Leonardo.� Even so, I give them kudos for that! J It is a beautiful bag.
                    >
                    > Gregory Stapleton / Gawain Kilgore
                    >
                    > From: medieval-leather@yahoogroups.com [mailto:medieval-leather@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ginny Phillips
                    > Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2012 8:21 AM
                    > To: medieval-leather@yahoogroups.com
                    > Subject: Re: [medieval-leather] Fw: Re: [Ancientartifacts] Re: Leonardo Da Vinci: Bag Designer.....
                    >
                    > That's a neat video, and a beautiful bag.
                    > The video doesn't go into much detail about how the decoration is done, though. I also wonder how much it can be true to real Renaissance leatherworking, since leatherworkers in Leonardo's era did not have access to chrome-tanned leather. This seems to be more "in the style of Leonardo" than an attempt at historical reproduction. Thoughts?
                    >
                    > Gillian
                    >
                    > <snipage>
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Henry Plouse
                    Actually, there are any number of possibilities for the decoration on the bag - carved and/or stamped leather, applique, embroidery.  Looking closely at the
                    Message 9 of 13 , Jan 13, 2012
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                      Actually, there are any number of possibilities for the decoration on the bag - carved and/or stamped leather, applique, embroidery.  Looking closely at the bag, it's quite possible that a number of the decorative elements (e.g., the central medallion on the flap and the dependent decorations, the "curlicues" which outline the flap scallops, and, most obviously, the top bar) are metal pieces (a very common technique).  Off hand, I'd say there are any number of options for replicating this piece, using one or more of those techniques.  That said, I was most impressed by the manner in which the bag was made in the video (perhaps because I use the technique myself), tho', as you note, there are reasons to question if that, in fact, was Leonardo's intent.
                       
                      THAT, however, is the fun of it all.  We have a notion, now it's up to our creativity to bring this anachronism back to life, with all the variations possible.  For my part, I'm inclined to follow the lead of the video, albeit with more metal content.
                       
                      YOS,
                      ALRIC

                      --- On Fri, 1/13/12, James Barker <flonzy@...> wrote:


                      From: James Barker <flonzy@...>
                      Subject: RE: [medieval-leather] Re: Leonardo Da Vinci: Bag Designer.....
                      To: medieval-leather@yahoogroups.com
                      Date: Friday, January 13, 2012, 6:50 AM



                      I would not assume Leonardo's drawing is showing applique; while there are minor examples of leather applique through the middle ages what is far more common in extant leather finds dated to the Renaissance is embroidery. Embroidered leather bags, gloves, and doublet examples exist in many museums. I find it more prudent to assume it is embroidery with so many examples over applique which we lack an extant time frame example of.




                      James


                      > To: medieval-leather@yahoogroups.com
                      > From: ozymandias1951@...
                      > Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 09:04:31 -0800
                      > Subject: Re: [medieval-leather] Re: Leonardo Da Vinci: Bag Designer.....
                      >
                      > For sure, there are likely distinctions between this piece and anything likely to have been made in Leonardo's time (note, if nothing else, the sewing machine...).  However, the handling of the applique on the front was fascinating - I had assumed, from the illustration, that it was carved decoration, but, instead, it was applique with various folding and filling techniques (which actually encouraged me, since I've used similar techniques in my own work, albeit not nearly so elaborately).  The fact that it so closely approximated the image left by Leonardo impressed me that it likely was a correct (at least permissible) technique.

                      > I don't know how much difference the "Chrome tan" vs. "Veg tanned" issue would account for.  With proper processing, veg tanned leather can be made very supple, certainly adequate to accommodate the techniques shown.  That said, I prefer to use chrome tanned leather, myself, secure with the "Creative" portion of our "Anachronism" title.  If I need to mold or carve or harden, etc., then, of course, I'll use veg tanned, but I see no reason to use it exclusively (not when I have rubberized soles on my suede boots).

                      > YOS,
                      > ALRIC

                      >
                      > --- On Thu, 1/12/12, Gregory G. Stapleton <gregsta@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > From: Gregory G. Stapleton <gregsta@...>
                      > Subject: [medieval-leather] Re: Leonardo Da Vinci: Bag Designer.....
                      > To: medieval-leather@yahoogroups.com
                      > Date: Thursday, January 12, 2012, 5:59 AM
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >   
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Oh, definitely. For a more period reproduction, I’d use goat skin. I’d also like some more information on the decoration. Plus, I don’t think, in period, that it would have had the stiffener that he used (cardboard in his case, wood in period). I think Leonardo’s would have been a “soft” purse. Again, I don’t think they were going for a reproduction, but as you said, “in the style of Leonardo.” Even so, I give them kudos for that! J It is a beautiful bag.
                      >
                      > Gregory Stapleton / Gawain Kilgore
                      >
                      > From: medieval-leather@yahoogroups.com [mailto:medieval-leather@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ginny Phillips
                      > Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2012 8:21 AM
                      > To: medieval-leather@yahoogroups.com
                      > Subject: Re: [medieval-leather] Fw: Re: [Ancientartifacts] Re: Leonardo Da Vinci: Bag Designer.....
                      >
                      > That's a neat video, and a beautiful bag.
                      > The video doesn't go into much detail about how the decoration is done, though. I also wonder how much it can be true to real Renaissance leatherworking, since leatherworkers in Leonardo's era did not have access to chrome-tanned leather. This seems to be more "in the style of Leonardo" than an attempt at historical reproduction. Thoughts?
                      >
                      > Gillian
                      >
                      > <snipage>
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                                               

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                      Yahoo! Groups Links





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                    • Michael Hurley
                      ... Interesting. I ve never had the chance to try alum tawed leather, so I didn t know it s working characteristics were that different from chrome-tanned. It
                      Message 10 of 13 , Jan 15, 2012
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                        On Jan 12, 2012, at 10:34 PM, Ginny Phillips wrote:
                        > I've worked with both chome tanned (or tawed) and alum tawed
                        > leather, and I find a fairly significant difference in the way each
                        > of them can be stitched.
                        > In my experience, many folks who try to replicate medieval stitching
                        > methods become frustrated with chrome tanned leather. Often they are
                        > unaware that stitches that are very difficult with modern leather
                        > preserved with chrome salts are much easier when using vegetable-
                        > tanned or alum tawed.

                        Interesting. I've never had the chance to try alum tawed leather, so I
                        didn't know it's working characteristics were that different from
                        chrome-tanned. It makes sense to me, though, that different techniques
                        produce somewhat different end characteristics. And yeah. Especially
                        edge-flesh stitching is a ring-tailed son of a ***** on chrome-tanned.

                        > I need to learn more about the chemistry and processes! It certainly
                        > makes sense to me that there would be a similarity between aluminum
                        > salts and chrome salts and the way they work. Why is chrome-tanning
                        > more or less permanent, while alum-tawing is unstable and suffers
                        > from exposure to moisture?

                        Oh, you can leach the chrome salts out, it just takes a lot longer. If
                        you wet your leather as you stitch it the way I sometimes do (that is
                        sticking it in your mouth), chrome-tanned leather will taste
                        distinctly salty while veg-tan tastes somewhat woody. I'm not sure why
                        the chromium salts last better in leather than the aluminum salts. I'm
                        not sure anyone who's interested in such things has ever had access to
                        a materials testing lab to really find out. Perhaps salts of chromium
                        are less soluble in water than alum. Perhaps the process bonds the
                        salts to the leather a bit, or makes the leather resist water
                        absorption better and so protects the salts. Hopefully some day
                        someone will have the ability to really test that.

                        > I try to encourage the use of vegetable-tanned leather for most
                        > medieval applications, and chrome-tanned for only those times when
                        > choice is limited due to financial or availability issues. Alum-
                        > tawed is hard to find, and prohibitively expensive most of the time.

                        I primarily use veg-tanned myself, though for things needing a great
                        deal of flexibility I will generally use chrome-tanned. Around where I
                        live, pretty much the only veg-tanned leather available is tooling
                        side, saddle skirting and sole bend. I really need to save up a crap-
                        ton of money and buy myself a pit-tanned deerhide to play with.
                        --
                        Auf wiedersehen!
                        Michael
                        ______________________________________________________
                        "..Um..Something strange happened to me this morning."

                        "Was it a dream where you see yourself standing in sort
                        of Sun God robes on a pyramid with a thousand naked
                        women screaming and throwing little pickles at you?"

                        "..No."

                        "Why am I the only person that has that dream?"

                        -Real Genius
                      • chuwt01
                        Alum tawing is called tawing not tanning for a reason: a true tanning produces chemical changes to the hide which are not reversable. Alum tawing, on the other
                        Message 11 of 13 , Jan 23, 2012
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                          Alum tawing is called tawing not tanning for a reason: a true tanning produces chemical changes to the hide which are not reversable.

                          Alum tawing, on the other hand, is more like freezing: it preserves the hide, but does not actually change its chemical composition. If the alum is washed out you have, in effect, rawhide, which is fine while it is dry, but will quickly start to decay if damp.

                          As a result, alum tawed products were often redressed with oil based materials, which help to waterproof it and reduce alum loss.

                          --- In medieval-leather@yahoogroups.com, Michael Hurley <mephit@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > On Jan 12, 2012, at 10:34 PM, Ginny Phillips wrote:
                          > > I've worked with both chome tanned (or tawed) and alum tawed
                          > > leather, and I find a fairly significant difference in the way each
                          > > of them can be stitched.
                          > > In my experience, many folks who try to replicate medieval stitching
                          > > methods become frustrated with chrome tanned leather. Often they are
                          > > unaware that stitches that are very difficult with modern leather
                          > > preserved with chrome salts are much easier when using vegetable-
                          > > tanned or alum tawed.
                          >
                          > Interesting. I've never had the chance to try alum tawed leather, so I
                          > didn't know it's working characteristics were that different from
                          > chrome-tanned. It makes sense to me, though, that different techniques
                          > produce somewhat different end characteristics. And yeah. Especially
                          > edge-flesh stitching is a ring-tailed son of a ***** on chrome-tanned.
                          >
                          > > I need to learn more about the chemistry and processes! It certainly
                          > > makes sense to me that there would be a similarity between aluminum
                          > > salts and chrome salts and the way they work. Why is chrome-tanning
                          > > more or less permanent, while alum-tawing is unstable and suffers
                          > > from exposure to moisture?
                          >
                          > Oh, you can leach the chrome salts out, it just takes a lot longer. If
                          > you wet your leather as you stitch it the way I sometimes do (that is
                          > sticking it in your mouth), chrome-tanned leather will taste
                          > distinctly salty while veg-tan tastes somewhat woody. I'm not sure why
                          > the chromium salts last better in leather than the aluminum salts. I'm
                          > not sure anyone who's interested in such things has ever had access to
                          > a materials testing lab to really find out. Perhaps salts of chromium
                          > are less soluble in water than alum. Perhaps the process bonds the
                          > salts to the leather a bit, or makes the leather resist water
                          > absorption better and so protects the salts. Hopefully some day
                          > someone will have the ability to really test that.
                          >
                          > > I try to encourage the use of vegetable-tanned leather for most
                          > > medieval applications, and chrome-tanned for only those times when
                          > > choice is limited due to financial or availability issues. Alum-
                          > > tawed is hard to find, and prohibitively expensive most of the time.
                          >
                          > I primarily use veg-tanned myself, though for things needing a great
                          > deal of flexibility I will generally use chrome-tanned. Around where I
                          > live, pretty much the only veg-tanned leather available is tooling
                          > side, saddle skirting and sole bend. I really need to save up a crap-
                          > ton of money and buy myself a pit-tanned deerhide to play with.
                          > --
                          > Auf wiedersehen!
                          > Michael
                          > ______________________________________________________
                          > "..Um..Something strange happened to me this morning."
                          >
                          > "Was it a dream where you see yourself standing in sort
                          > of Sun God robes on a pyramid with a thousand naked
                          > women screaming and throwing little pickles at you?"
                          >
                          > "..No."
                          >
                          > "Why am I the only person that has that dream?"
                          >
                          > -Real Genius
                          >
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