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Re: [medieval-leather] real sinew used in the middle ages?

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  • Purple Kat
    Bigfoot, When you said the switch from flax to linen thread -- did you mean from tow based thread to line based thread? As the linen plant as a whole is
    Message 1 of 24 , Jan 4, 2012
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      Bigfoot,

      When you said 'the switch from flax to linen thread' -- did you mean
      from tow based thread to line based thread? As the 'linen' plant as a
      whole is called flax.

      ( http://www.libeco.com/en/about-linen/from-flax-to-linen.aspx )

      Or were you saying the switch from sinew to linen thread??

      Katheryne
      who actually spins linen thread

      On 1/4/12, bigfoot rockmidget <bigfootedrockmidget@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hello Barry and others,
      >
      <snippage>

      > The switch from flax to linen thread was I think during the 12th-13th century.
      >
      > Best,
      > NB
    • Verena Entenwirt
      This is a great topic! Thank you for bringing it up. If while answer you can post your reference that would be fantastic! -Verena [Non-text portions of this
      Message 2 of 24 , Jan 4, 2012
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        This is a great topic! Thank you for bringing it up. If while answer you
        can post your reference that would be fantastic!

        -Verena


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Freyadis Steinsdottir
        linen comes from the flax plant. it is the same thing. ... From: bigfoot rockmidget To:
        Message 3 of 24 , Jan 4, 2012
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          linen comes from the flax plant. it is the same thing.

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "bigfoot rockmidget" <bigfootedrockmidget@...>
          To: <medieval-leather@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2012 8:41 AM
          Subject: RE: [medieval-leather] real sinew used in the middle ages?


          >
          > Hello Barry and others,
          >
          > I don't know of any references or finds where sinew is mentioned as a
          > thread to sew leather. I do know that In the middle ages and the
          > renaissance, it was used in the construction of crossbows.
          > These medieval cases (for wax tablets or whatever) where glued (inner
          > case) and sewn with flax or linen thread. The switch from flax to linen
          > thread was I think during the 12th-13th century.
          >
          > Best,
          > NB
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > To: medieval-leather@yahoogroups.com
          > From: barryehicks@...
          > Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2012 11:57:51 +0000
          > Subject: [medieval-leather] real sinew used in the middle ages?
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          > Was real sinew used in the middle ages? I am trying to find out if
          > only the people of the America's used it before the European discovery? I
          > would think it would have been perfect for use on Cuir Bouilli cases and
          > whatnot along with hide glue, but I have found no such evidence. I was
          > wondering if anyone here may have any information?
          >
          >
          >
          > Thank you!
          >
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          >
          > Barry
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          > Yahoo! Groups Links
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        • bigfoot rockmidget
          Sorry for the confusion. With linen thread I mean a finer product then flax thread. I think it was mainly the procedure of heckling that approved much by the
          Message 4 of 24 , Jan 6, 2012
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            Sorry for the confusion. With linen thread I mean a finer product then flax thread. I think it was mainly the procedure of heckling that approved much by the 14th century, which improved the strength and homogeneity of the end result significantly. Well, and the introduction of the spinning wheel of course, although it was probably not much used.
            For most practical purposes the difference between flax and linen thread is more academical I guess.

            Hemp was also used, at least in the late middle ages (after the 10th century) and later. Sometimes also wool was used, don't ask me why, it seems a very bad choice to me.
            Before the 13th century, leather thongs were also used as a stitching medium, at least for shoes.


            Katheryne:

            I don't know what you mean by 'tow based thread'. Can you explain?
            For your spinning, do you use a loose spindle or a wheel to make your threads? How long does it take you to make, say, 1 meter or 3 ft of thread? Do you also do the harvesting, rotting, heckling, etc. yourself?
            I think one reason for not using sinew except for particular purposes is that it takes much, much longer to make a thread.





            To: medieval-leather@yahoogroups.com
            From: purplkat597@...
            Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2012 10:52:28 -0500
            Subject: Re: [medieval-leather] real sinew used in the middle ages?




























            Bigfoot,



            When you said 'the switch from flax to linen thread' -- did you mean

            from tow based thread to line based thread? As the 'linen' plant as a

            whole is called flax.



            ( http://www.libeco.com/en/about-linen/from-flax-to-linen.aspx )



            Or were you saying the switch from sinew to linen thread??



            Katheryne

            who actually spins linen thread



            On 1/4/12, bigfoot rockmidget <bigfootedrockmidget@...> wrote:

            >

            > Hello Barry and others,

            >

            <snippage>



            > The switch from flax to linen thread was I think during the 12th-13th century.

            >

            > Best,

            > NB
















            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Ron Charlotte
            ... Little late to the discussion (both busy, and my library is in disarray). It it difficult to nail down stitching materials because they so seldom survive
            Message 5 of 24 , Jan 8, 2012
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              At 06:57 AM 1/3/2012, Barry wrote:
              >Was real sinew used in the middle ages? I am trying to find out if
              >only the people of the America's used it before the European
              >discovery? I would think it would have been perfect for use on Cuir
              >Bouilli cases and whatnot along with hide glue, but I have found no
              >such evidence. I was wondering if anyone here may have any information?


              Little late to the discussion (both busy, and my library is in
              disarray). It it difficult to nail down stitching materials because
              they so seldom survive the conditions that preserve many leather
              items. However, in his examination of the Brec Moedoic Budgee and
              the Corpus Christi Budget published in _Medieval Archaeology_ volume
              12, 1968 ("Irish Book-Satchels of Budgets") John Waterer identified
              the original sewing medium as being (most probably) sinew. There are
              a few surviving items from Ireland of that general era that also used
              sinew as a stitching medium.

              The reality is, though, that anywhere flax/linen became available, it
              quickly became the medium of choice, with silk frequently being used
              for decorative accents..

              Natural sinew, when all is said and done is basically raw hide, with
              all of it's strengths _and_ weaknesses. For an item like a book
              bag, or an ecclesiastical shoe that would seldom be exposed to
              moisture/sweat, etc, sinew would work, as it would for items that you
              don't realistically expect to last long. With rare exceptions, you
              cannot get lengths longer than about 20 inches, and it takes a
              different set of skills to use compared to fiber thread.

              Basically, even with recent archeology, the stiching survives in such
              a small percentage of leather goods, and _most_ of those are linen
              (and related fibers) or silk..


              Ron Charlotte -- Gainesville, FL
              ronch2@... OR afn03234@...
            • Joe Reiter
              While recreating a girdle purse from the book purses in pieces I used waxed linen thread as they described being used in the middle ages pre 16th century. Sent
              Message 6 of 24 , Jan 8, 2012
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                While recreating a girdle purse from the book purses in pieces I used waxed linen thread as they described being used in the middle ages pre 16th century.

                Sent from my iPhone

                On Jan 8, 2012, at 5:08 PM, Ron Charlotte <ronch2@...> wrote:

                > At 06:57 AM 1/3/2012, Barry wrote:
                > >Was real sinew used in the middle ages? I am trying to find out if
                > >only the people of the America's used it before the European
                > >discovery? I would think it would have been perfect for use on Cuir
                > >Bouilli cases and whatnot along with hide glue, but I have found no
                > >such evidence. I was wondering if anyone here may have any information?
                >
                > Little late to the discussion (both busy, and my library is in
                > disarray). It it difficult to nail down stitching materials because
                > they so seldom survive the conditions that preserve many leather
                > items. However, in his examination of the Brec Moedoic Budgee and
                > the Corpus Christi Budget published in _Medieval Archaeology_ volume
                > 12, 1968 ("Irish Book-Satchels of Budgets") John Waterer identified
                > the original sewing medium as being (most probably) sinew. There are
                > a few surviving items from Ireland of that general era that also used
                > sinew as a stitching medium.
                >
                > The reality is, though, that anywhere flax/linen became available, it
                > quickly became the medium of choice, with silk frequently being used
                > for decorative accents..
                >
                > Natural sinew, when all is said and done is basically raw hide, with
                > all of it's strengths _and_ weaknesses. For an item like a book
                > bag, or an ecclesiastical shoe that would seldom be exposed to
                > moisture/sweat, etc, sinew would work, as it would for items that you
                > don't realistically expect to last long. With rare exceptions, you
                > cannot get lengths longer than about 20 inches, and it takes a
                > different set of skills to use compared to fiber thread.
                >
                > Basically, even with recent archeology, the stiching survives in such
                > a small percentage of leather goods, and _most_ of those are linen
                > (and related fibers) or silk..
                >
                > Ron Charlotte -- Gainesville, FL
                > ronch2@... OR afn03234@...
                >
                >


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Fuersty@aol.com
                Greetings, First off I just want to thank everyone that contributes on this list and with every set of posts I learn something new. I ve been doing leather
                Message 7 of 24 , Jan 9, 2012
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                  Greetings,

                  First off I just want to thank everyone that contributes on this list and with every set of posts I learn something new. I've been doing leather carving as a hobby for 30+ years, but most of what I know are modern techniques so this list has been very educational.

                  Now the reason for my post today is that I've been asked to teach a class on early period leather carving, meaning 10th century and earlier. The class will be a combination of historical information along with some hands-on leather carving. Now I've seen a few examples in books, but have very little knowledge in this area. I'm hoping that a few of you might be able to point me to some good reference materials or have specific knowledge that may be helpful.

                  I'm looking for Web links or Book references on:
                  - Leather Dyes and what they were made from
                  - Pictures of tooled leather (especially if it would be Norse related)
                  - Pictures of the actual tools/punches that may have been used

                  Any information would be greatly appreciated, thanks,

                  Tim
                  fuersty (at) AOL (dot) com



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Joe Reiter
                  Purses in peices. It s a book and it s awesome. It had examples of tooled leather lots of good info. Sent from my iPhone ... [Non-text portions of this message
                  Message 8 of 24 , Jan 10, 2012
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                    Purses in peices. It's a book and it's awesome. It had examples of tooled leather lots of good info.

                    Sent from my iPhone

                    On Jan 9, 2012, at 10:36 AM, Fuersty@... wrote:

                    >
                    > Greetings,
                    >
                    > First off I just want to thank everyone that contributes on this list and with every set of posts I learn something new. I've been doing leather carving as a hobby for 30+ years, but most of what I know are modern techniques so this list has been very educational.
                    >
                    > Now the reason for my post today is that I've been asked to teach a class on early period leather carving, meaning 10th century and earlier. The class will be a combination of historical information along with some hands-on leather carving. Now I've seen a few examples in books, but have very little knowledge in this area. I'm hoping that a few of you might be able to point me to some good reference materials or have specific knowledge that may be helpful.
                    >
                    > I'm looking for Web links or Book references on:
                    > - Leather Dyes and what they were made from
                    > - Pictures of tooled leather (especially if it would be Norse related)
                    > - Pictures of the actual tools/punches that may have been used
                    >
                    > Any information would be greatly appreciated, thanks,
                    >
                    > Tim
                    > fuersty (at) AOL (dot) com
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • barry hicks
                    Hmmm I don t have all my resources in a row. I will try and get back to this in a few days. This is something that I plan on doing this year. :) I am currently
                    Message 9 of 24 , Jan 10, 2012
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                      Hmmm I don't have all my resources in a row. I will try and get back to this in a few days.

                      This is something that I plan on doing this year. :) I am currently going to be teaching a few simple purse designs. 'Purses in Pieces' is a great book to look at. It does have some good examples. One of the best images in the book can be found at the Metropolitan Museum of Arts catalog. It is a Girdle purse used by men (all Girdle purses were used by men). http://www.metmuseum.org/Collections/search-the-collections/170018848?rpp=20&pg=1&ft=leather+purse&when=A.D.+1400-1600&pos=3 Please keep in mind that this is a bit later than you are looking for but it is a good example (one of the rare ones to have stayed in such good shape).

                      You can find more items in the Victoria and Albert catalog http://collections.vam.ac.uk/

                      That's a good starting point. I also suggest looking under books.google.com Type in leather and a lot will come up... much of it is free. They have a good bit of info in there. Anotehr good book is 'All Things Medieval' http://books.google.com/books?id=yPcIuJ5TNxMC You have to buy the book but can preview it on books.google .

                      This gentleman has a picture on of his site of a tooled bag that may be of interest as well. http://www.personal.utulsa.edu/~marc-carlson/leather/toolingclass.html

                      oh yes, and as for tools. They have changed very little from medieval times. Here's a link to another gentleman's site which has some wonderful information on leather working tools. http://www.personal.utulsa.edu/~marc-carlson/leather/plwt.html

                      Hope this helps some!

                      YiS,

                      Barry


                      --- In medieval-leather@yahoogroups.com, Fuersty@... wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > Greetings,
                      >
                      > First off I just want to thank everyone that contributes on this list and with every set of posts I learn something new. I've been doing leather carving as a hobby for 30+ years, but most of what I know are modern techniques so this list has been very educational.
                      >
                      > Now the reason for my post today is that I've been asked to teach a class on early period leather carving, meaning 10th century and earlier. The class will be a combination of historical information along with some hands-on leather carving. Now I've seen a few examples in books, but have very little knowledge in this area. I'm hoping that a few of you might be able to point me to some good reference materials or have specific knowledge that may be helpful.
                      >
                      > I'm looking for Web links or Book references on:
                      > - Leather Dyes and what they were made from
                      > - Pictures of tooled leather (especially if it would be Norse related)
                      > - Pictures of the actual tools/punches that may have been used
                      >
                      > Any information would be greatly appreciated, thanks,
                      >
                      > Tim
                      > fuersty (at) AOL (dot) com
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                    • Joe Reiter
                      I have replicated some of the bags from that book. It s a good place to get a grasp on the leather work of that time. Sent from my iPhone ... [Non-text
                      Message 10 of 24 , Jan 10, 2012
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                        I have replicated some of the bags from that book. It's a good place to get a grasp on the leather work of that time.

                        Sent from my iPhone

                        On Jan 10, 2012, at 8:31 AM, "barry hicks" <barryehicks@...> wrote:

                        > Hmmm I don't have all my resources in a row. I will try and get back to this in a few days.
                        >
                        > This is something that I plan on doing this year. :) I am currently going to be teaching a few simple purse designs. 'Purses in Pieces' is a great book to look at. It does have some good examples. One of the best images in the book can be found at the Metropolitan Museum of Arts catalog. It is a Girdle purse used by men (all Girdle purses were used by men). http://www.metmuseum.org/Collections/search-the-collections/170018848?rpp=20&pg=1&ft=leather+purse&when=A.D.+1400-1600&pos=3 Please keep in mind that this is a bit later than you are looking for but it is a good example (one of the rare ones to have stayed in such good shape).
                        >
                        > You can find more items in the Victoria and Albert catalog http://collections.vam.ac.uk/
                        >
                        > That's a good starting point. I also suggest looking under books.google.com Type in leather and a lot will come up... much of it is free. They have a good bit of info in there. Anotehr good book is 'All Things Medieval' http://books.google.com/books?id=yPcIuJ5TNxMC You have to buy the book but can preview it on books.google .
                        >
                        > This gentleman has a picture on of his site of a tooled bag that may be of interest as well. http://www.personal.utulsa.edu/~marc-carlson/leather/toolingclass.html
                        >
                        > oh yes, and as for tools. They have changed very little from medieval times. Here's a link to another gentleman's site which has some wonderful information on leather working tools. http://www.personal.utulsa.edu/~marc-carlson/leather/plwt.html
                        >
                        > Hope this helps some!
                        >
                        > YiS,
                        >
                        > Barry
                        >
                        > --- In medieval-leather@yahoogroups.com, Fuersty@... wrote:
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Greetings,
                        > >
                        > > First off I just want to thank everyone that contributes on this list and with every set of posts I learn something new. I've been doing leather carving as a hobby for 30+ years, but most of what I know are modern techniques so this list has been very educational.
                        > >
                        > > Now the reason for my post today is that I've been asked to teach a class on early period leather carving, meaning 10th century and earlier. The class will be a combination of historical information along with some hands-on leather carving. Now I've seen a few examples in books, but have very little knowledge in this area. I'm hoping that a few of you might be able to point me to some good reference materials or have specific knowledge that may be helpful.
                        > >
                        > > I'm looking for Web links or Book references on:
                        > > - Leather Dyes and what they were made from
                        > > - Pictures of tooled leather (especially if it would be Norse related)
                        > > - Pictures of the actual tools/punches that may have been used
                        > >
                        > > Any information would be greatly appreciated, thanks,
                        > >
                        > > Tim
                        > > fuersty (at) AOL (dot) com
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > >
                        >
                        >


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Fuersty@aol.com
                        Thanks everyone, for the information you ve been sending about sites and resources... this is very helpful. I ve always been interested in the eary peroid
                        Message 11 of 24 , Jan 10, 2012
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                          Thanks everyone, for the information you've been sending about sites and resources... this is very helpful. I've always been interested in the eary peroid history, but have never thought about the 'how it was done' part of this craft. So this is giving me kind of a crash course, which is great!

                          Thanks Much,
                          Tim

                          P.S.
                          I've been asked to present this class at an Early Period SCA event, should be fun.




                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • AlbionWood
                          Greetings Tim, The good news is, there is so little published material on Early Medieval leather decoration, it won t take you very long to read it all and be
                          Message 12 of 24 , Jan 10, 2012
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                            Greetings Tim,

                            The good news is, there is so little published material on Early
                            Medieval leather decoration, it won't take you very long to read it all
                            and be done with that stage of research. More good news: What you
                            really need to do is go to Europe and visit some museums where they have
                            surviving pieces, and see firsthand how they were decorated. Bad news:
                            Airfare is expensive.

                            We've had many discussions here over the years about leather dyes, and
                            99% of them have been speculation. We all know what kinds of dyes
                            _could have been_ applied to leather, but we have very little - if any -
                            actual evidence to show that dyes actually were used on leather,
                            especially from the Early Medieval period. Pretty much all the
                            surviving leather scraps and objects from that period are black, from
                            age and burial; it's impossible to know from observation whether they
                            were originally dyed or not. Modern technology might answer the
                            question, but AFAIK it hasn't been attempted. We do have considerable
                            evidence for _painted_ leather, though most of that is from outside your
                            period of interest.

                            We should be able to come up with some pictures of decorated objects.
                            Perhaps the best-documented early tooled-leather pieces are the Irish
                            book-satchels ("budgets") described by Waterer; the complete article is
                            now available online as a PDF, but I don't have a good link - Google
                            "Irish book satchels" and it should come up. Also you might profitably
                            spend some time searching the UK Archaeology Data Service site:
                            http://archaeologydataservice.ac.uk/

                            More later - gotta go now.
                            Cheers,
                            Tim


                            On 1/9/2012 7:36 AM, Fuersty@... wrote:
                            >
                            > Greetings,
                            >
                            > First off I just want to thank everyone that contributes on this list and with every set of posts I learn something new. I've been doing leather carving as a hobby for 30+ years, but most of what I know are modern techniques so this list has been very educational.
                            >
                            > Now the reason for my post today is that I've been asked to teach a class on early period leather carving, meaning 10th century and earlier. The class will be a combination of historical information along with some hands-on leather carving. Now I've seen a few examples in books, but have very little knowledge in this area. I'm hoping that a few of you might be able to point me to some good reference materials or have specific knowledge that may be helpful.
                            >
                            > I'm looking for Web links or Book references on:
                            > - Leather Dyes and what they were made from
                            > - Pictures of tooled leather (especially if it would be Norse related)
                            > - Pictures of the actual tools/punches that may have been used
                            >
                            > Any information would be greatly appreciated, thanks,
                            >
                            > Tim
                            > fuersty (at) AOL (dot) com
                            >
                          • Lh
                            P in p is good but latter in period. I have a good biblio at home on earlier sources. Look at the York archeological trust. Search on Iona finds and the Royal
                            Message 13 of 24 , Jan 10, 2012
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                              P in p is good but latter in period. I have a good biblio at home on earlier sources. Look at the York archeological trust. Search on Iona finds and the Royal Irish Academy has wonderful books on that time. John H Watterer has lots of books and articles with pics but he is harder to get. The national history museum in Dublin has good displays. Look in livinghistory.ie and go in the early medieval section. As for dyes that was later than the 10th c. Colors were painted on during that time. Hard to find evidence except mentions by Elizabeth Ocasha in her papers. The book Sheath and Scabbards 400 to 1000 has a small section on it.
                              Seathrun
                            • Diane Sawyer Dooley
                              Is the leather book from York still available for free? Tasha
                              Message 14 of 24 , Jan 10, 2012
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                                Is the leather book from York still available for free?


                                Tasha

                                >________________________________
                                > From: Lh <sethrun.magaoinghous@...>
                                >To: "medieval-leather@yahoogroups.com" <medieval-leather@yahoogroups.com>
                                >Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2012 12:12 PM
                                >Subject: [medieval-leather] Re: Looking for Leather Carving Examples
                                >
                                >

                                >P in p is good but latter in period. I have a good biblio at home on earlier sources. Look at the York archeological trust. Search on Iona finds and the Royal Irish Academy has wonderful books on that time. John H Watterer has lots of books and articles with pics but he is harder to get. The national history museum in Dublin has good displays. Look in livinghistory.ie and go in the early medieval section. As for dyes that was later than the 10th c. Colors were painted on during that time. Hard to find evidence except mentions by Elizabeth Ocasha in her papers. The book Sheath and Scabbards 400 to 1000 has a small section on it.
                                >Seathrun
                                >
                                >
                                >
                              • bigfooted rockmidget
                                You mean this one? The Archaeology of York 17/16 Leather and Leatherworking in Anglo-Scandinavian and Medieval York by Quita Mould, Ian Carlisle and Esther
                                Message 15 of 24 , Jan 10, 2012
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                                  You mean this one?

                                  The Archaeology of York 17/16

                                  Leather and Leatherworking in Anglo-Scandinavian and Medieval York

                                  by Quita Mould, Ian Carlisle and Esther Cameron
                                  It is here:
                                  http://www.yorkarchaeology.co.uk/resources/pubs_archive.htm


                                  To: medieval-leather@yahoogroups.com
                                  From: tasha_medvedeva@...
                                  Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 09:20:11 -0800
                                  Subject: Re: [medieval-leather] Re: Looking for Leather Carving Examples




























                                  Is the leather book from York still available for free?



                                  Tasha



                                  >________________________________

                                  > From: Lh <sethrun.magaoinghous@...>

                                  >To: "medieval-leather@yahoogroups.com" <medieval-leather@yahoogroups.com>

                                  >Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2012 12:12 PM

                                  >Subject: [medieval-leather] Re: Looking for Leather Carving Examples

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >P in p is good but latter in period. I have a good biblio at home on earlier sources. Look at the York archeological trust. Search on Iona finds and the Royal Irish Academy has wonderful books on that time. John H Watterer has lots of books and articles with pics but he is harder to get. The national history museum in Dublin has good displays. Look in livinghistory.ie and go in the early medieval section. As for dyes that was later than the 10th c. Colors were painted on during that time. Hard to find evidence except mentions by Elizabeth Ocasha in her papers. The book Sheath and Scabbards 400 to 1000 has a small section on it.

                                  >Seathrun

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >
















                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • bigfooted rockmidget
                                  The leather binding of the gospel of St. Cuthbert has survived in its entirety (together with the rest of the book). It is made of dyed red goat leather with
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Jan 10, 2012
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                                    The leather binding of the gospel of St. Cuthbert has survived in its entirety (together with the rest of the book). It is made of dyed red goat leather with yellow paint on the interlaced lines.
                                    It was created in the last quarter of the 7th century.

                                    Here is a small picture:
                                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Cuthbert_Gospel

                                    Note that in traditional oak tanned pit tanning, the final color of the leather after tanning will be quite dark, especially when the soil has a high iron content. You don't need to do much to get black leather (I haven't tried, but if you have, I'm curious to see the result).



                                    To: medieval-leather@yahoogroups.com
                                    From: albionwood@...
                                    Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 08:53:04 -0800
                                    Subject: Re: [medieval-leather] Looking for Leather Carving Examples




























                                    Greetings Tim,



                                    The good news is, there is so little published material on Early

                                    Medieval leather decoration, it won't take you very long to read it all

                                    and be done with that stage of research. More good news: What you

                                    really need to do is go to Europe and visit some museums where they have

                                    surviving pieces, and see firsthand how they were decorated. Bad news:

                                    Airfare is expensive.



                                    We've had many discussions here over the years about leather dyes, and

                                    99% of them have been speculation. We all know what kinds of dyes

                                    _could have been_ applied to leather, but we have very little - if any -

                                    actual evidence to show that dyes actually were used on leather,

                                    especially from the Early Medieval period. Pretty much all the

                                    surviving leather scraps and objects from that period are black, from

                                    age and burial; it's impossible to know from observation whether they

                                    were originally dyed or not. Modern technology might answer the

                                    question, but AFAIK it hasn't been attempted. We do have considerable

                                    evidence for _painted_ leather, though most of that is from outside your

                                    period of interest.



                                    We should be able to come up with some pictures of decorated objects.

                                    Perhaps the best-documented early tooled-leather pieces are the Irish

                                    book-satchels ("budgets") described by Waterer; the complete article is

                                    now available online as a PDF, but I don't have a good link - Google

                                    "Irish book satchels" and it should come up. Also you might profitably

                                    spend some time searching the UK Archaeology Data Service site:

                                    http://archaeologydataservice.ac.uk/



                                    More later - gotta go now.

                                    Cheers,

                                    Tim



                                    On 1/9/2012 7:36 AM, Fuersty@... wrote:

                                    >

                                    > Greetings,

                                    >

                                    > First off I just want to thank everyone that contributes on this list and with every set of posts I learn something new. I've been doing leather carving as a hobby for 30+ years, but most of what I know are modern techniques so this list has been very educational.

                                    >

                                    > Now the reason for my post today is that I've been asked to teach a class on early period leather carving, meaning 10th century and earlier. The class will be a combination of historical information along with some hands-on leather carving. Now I've seen a few examples in books, but have very little knowledge in this area. I'm hoping that a few of you might be able to point me to some good reference materials or have specific knowledge that may be helpful.

                                    >

                                    > I'm looking for Web links or Book references on:

                                    > - Leather Dyes and what they were made from

                                    > - Pictures of tooled leather (especially if it would be Norse related)

                                    > - Pictures of the actual tools/punches that may have been used

                                    >

                                    > Any information would be greatly appreciated, thanks,

                                    >

                                    > Tim

                                    > fuersty (at) AOL (dot) com

                                    >
















                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Colin
                                    Have you looked at Leather and Leatherworking In Anglos Saxon and Medieval York (is that the title?) by the YAT? There s quite a lot of examples of carving
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Jan 11, 2012
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                                      Have you looked at Leather and Leatherworking In Anglos Saxon and Medieval York (is that the title?) by the YAT? There's quite a lot of examples of carving back to about the 10thC in there.

                                      Best wishes

                                      Colin

                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      From: Fuersty@...
                                      To: medieval-leather@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Monday, January 09, 2012 3:36 PM
                                      Subject: [medieval-leather] Looking for Leather Carving Examples




                                      Greetings,

                                      First off I just want to thank everyone that contributes on this list and with every set of posts I learn something new. I've been doing leather carving as a hobby for 30+ years, but most of what I know are modern techniques so this list has been very educational.

                                      Now the reason for my post today is that I've been asked to teach a class on early period leather carving, meaning 10th century and earlier. The class will be a combination of historical information along with some hands-on leather carving. Now I've seen a few examples in books, but have very little knowledge in this area. I'm hoping that a few of you might be able to point me to some good reference materials or have specific knowledge that may be helpful.

                                      I'm looking for Web links or Book references on:
                                      - Leather Dyes and what they were made from
                                      - Pictures of tooled leather (especially if it would be Norse related)
                                      - Pictures of the actual tools/punches that may have been used

                                      Any information would be greatly appreciated, thanks,

                                      Tim
                                      fuersty (at) AOL (dot) com

                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • bigfooted rockmidget
                                      I m more into late medieval leather working but I just remembered that there is the Mappae Clavicula , which is a latin manuscript with parts written between
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Jan 13, 2012
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                                        I'm more into late medieval leather working but I just remembered that there is the 'Mappae Clavicula', which is a latin manuscript with parts written between the 8th and the 12th century, with some parts known to be copies of even older manuscripts. It has some recipes for dyeing leather red and green and I think purple as well.

                                        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mappae_clavicula
                                        The latin version in online in archive, I don't know of an english online version.

                                        For tooled leather from Norway I only have the book with the finds from Bergen describing knife scabbards from the 12th-14th century.
                                        Some early tools can be found in the York manuscripts, but I think they are not all in the 'leather and leatherworking' book.

                                        Have fun!

                                        To: medieval-leather@yahoogroups.com
                                        From: Fuersty@...
                                        Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2012 10:36:03 -0500
                                        Subject: [medieval-leather] Looking for Leather Carving Examples






























                                        Greetings,



                                        First off I just want to thank everyone that contributes on this list and with every set of posts I learn something new. I've been doing leather carving as a hobby for 30+ years, but most of what I know are modern techniques so this list has been very educational.



                                        Now the reason for my post today is that I've been asked to teach a class on early period leather carving, meaning 10th century and earlier. The class will be a combination of historical information along with some hands-on leather carving. Now I've seen a few examples in books, but have very little knowledge in this area. I'm hoping that a few of you might be able to point me to some good reference materials or have specific knowledge that may be helpful.



                                        I'm looking for Web links or Book references on:

                                        - Leather Dyes and what they were made from

                                        - Pictures of tooled leather (especially if it would be Norse related)

                                        - Pictures of the actual tools/punches that may have been used



                                        Any information would be greatly appreciated, thanks,



                                        Tim

                                        fuersty (at) AOL (dot) com



                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


















                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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