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Re: Leather Rose - Documentation

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  • Meg
    I was trying to be able to trace back to period the leatherwork on a Mexican saddle that I really love. I posted pictures of it in the folder marked Eulalia.
    Message 1 of 14 , Jun 22 6:43 PM
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      I was trying to be able to trace back to period the leatherwork on a
      Mexican saddle that I really love. I posted pictures of it in the
      folder marked Eulalia. I have seen detailing on the some saddles, but
      not enough to know if it is leatherwork and then be able to use it as
      a form of documention. Thank you for any additional information.
      Eulalia


      --- In medieval-leather@yahoogroups.com, "Leslie Cox"
      <lucyrosefalconer@...> wrote:
      >
      > I'm far from an expert - but you might look to Spanish/Moorish saddle
      > patterning, if there's a source for it. (and if you're talking about
      > carving/stamping and not something else)
      >
      > -- Lucy Rose Falconer
    • Ron Charlotte
      ... I am under the impression that she s talking about the folded leather flowers, like these: http://www.leatherrosesbyrose.com/gallery.html. ... Ron
      Message 2 of 14 , Jun 23 8:16 AM
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        At 10:10 PM 6/21/2007, Lucy Rose Falconer wrote:
        >I'm far from an expert - but you might look to Spanish/Moorish saddle
        >patterning, if there's a source for it. (and if you're talking about
        >carving/stamping and not something else)

        I am under the impression that she's talking about the folded leather
        flowers, like these: http://www.leatherrosesbyrose.com/gallery.html.

        >

        Ron Charlotte -- Gainesville, FL
        ronch2@... OR afn03234@...
      • Ron Charlotte
        ... Sort, of. The popular and more often grown roses were simple blooms, but there are variants of the Chinas, Damask, and Gallica that have been in Europe
        Message 3 of 14 , Jun 23 8:39 AM
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          At 11:23 PM 6/21/2007, Samia wrote:
          >IIRC, Roses in period had just 5 petals. It's modern (last 400 years)
          >breeding that gave up the roses we are familiar with today.

          Sort, of. The popular and more often grown roses were simple blooms,
          but there are variants of the Chinas, Damask, and Gallica that have
          been in Europe since before the fall of Rome. Damask variety were
          grown by the Greeks. Off the top of my head, the "Empress
          Josephine", a 24-30 petal bloom, can be accurately dated to at least
          1583: and the true Rose of Lancaster (Rosa gallica
          officinalis/Apothocary Rose) is actually a 12-18 petal bloom; among others.

          The hybrid tea shape emulated with the folded leather _is_ the result
          of a lot of post medieval cross breeding.


          Ron Charlotte -- Gainesville, FL
          ronch2@... OR afn03234@...
        • Meg
          The base is five petals with a bud in the center like the close-up in the second picture in my folder. What I had in mind isn t like the folded leather roses
          Message 4 of 14 , Jun 23 9:18 AM
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            The base is five petals with a bud in the center like the close-up
            in the second picture in my folder. What I had in mind isn't like
            the folded leather roses in the link. Just enough of a leather bud
            in the center to give it a little more depth. Thank you again for
            any additonal information.
            Eulalia

            --- In medieval-leather@yahoogroups.com, Ron Charlotte <ronch2@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > At 11:23 PM 6/21/2007, Samia wrote:
            > >IIRC, Roses in period had just 5 petals. It's modern (last 400
            years)
            > >breeding that gave up the roses we are familiar with today.
            >
            > Sort, of. The popular and more often grown roses were simple
            blooms,
            > but there are variants of the Chinas, Damask, and Gallica that
            have
            > been in Europe since before the fall of Rome. Damask variety were
            > grown by the Greeks. Off the top of my head, the "Empress
            > Josephine", a 24-30 petal bloom, can be accurately dated to at
            least
            > 1583: and the true Rose of Lancaster (Rosa gallica
            > officinalis/Apothocary Rose) is actually a 12-18 petal bloom;
            among others.
            >
            > The hybrid tea shape emulated with the folded leather _is_ the
            result
            > of a lot of post medieval cross breeding.
            >
            >
            > Ron Charlotte -- Gainesville, FL
            > ronch2@... OR afn03234@...
            >
          • Ron Charlotte
            ... A lot of the carving is pretty similar to some details I ve seen on 15th century Italian work that I ve seen good photos of, but the high relief roses are
            Message 5 of 14 , Jun 23 12:20 PM
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              At 09:43 PM 6/22/2007, you wrote:
              >I was trying to be able to trace back to period the leatherwork on a
              >Mexican saddle that I really love. I posted pictures of it in the
              >folder marked Eulalia. I have seen detailing on the some saddles, but
              >not enough to know if it is leatherwork and then be able to use it as
              >a form of documention

              A lot of the carving is pretty similar to some details I've seen on
              15th century Italian work that I've seen good photos of, but the high
              relief roses are probably post-renaissance (but really nice
              tooling...) You can look at some of the more elaborate
              book-bindings of the late 1500's, and some of the surviving leather
              covered boxes.

              If you can find that style of rose in Spainish or Portuguese wood
              carvings then you at least have a motif documentation.


              Ron Charlotte -- Gainesville, FL
              ronch2@... OR afn03234@...
            • silveroak@juno.com
              Greetings! Funny you should ask about roses on leather.... A bunch of Scadians just went to the rare books room at Penn State University, and guess what s
              Message 6 of 14 , Jun 23 8:02 PM
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                Greetings!

                Funny you should ask about roses on leather....

                A bunch of Scadians just went to the rare books room at Penn State University, and guess
                what's stamped into the leather of the front and back bindings?? Go on, just guess.....!

                hee hee hee!!

                I got *lots* of digital pics, the book's from 1497, I'll post them when I get back home.....

                -Carowyn
              • Meg
                That would be absolutely wonderful, I can t wait to see them! Eulalia ... University, and guess ... Go on, just guess.....! ... when I get back home.....
                Message 7 of 14 , Jun 24 4:31 PM
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                  That would be absolutely wonderful, I can't wait to see them!
                  Eulalia


                  --- In medieval-leather@yahoogroups.com, "silveroak@..."
                  <silveroak@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > Greetings!
                  >
                  > Funny you should ask about roses on leather....
                  >
                  > A bunch of Scadians just went to the rare books room at Penn State
                  University, and guess
                  > what's stamped into the leather of the front and back bindings??
                  Go on, just guess.....!
                  >
                  > hee hee hee!!
                  >
                  > I got *lots* of digital pics, the book's from 1497, I'll post them
                  when I get back home.....
                  >
                  > -Carowyn
                  >
                • Carowyn Silveroak
                  Greetings, ... I was looking at some facsimiles of some period herbals, and if the pen-and-ink drawings are any indication, they had all sorts of
                  Message 8 of 14 , Jun 27 3:24 PM
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                    Greetings,

                    > >IIRC, Roses in period had just 5 petals. It's modern (last 400
                    > years) breeding that gave up the roses we are familiar with today.

                    I was looking at some facsimiles of some period herbals, and if the
                    pen-and-ink drawings are any indication, they had all sorts of
                    multi-petalled roses. I know some Floribunda species go back to period,
                    and I remember reading a rose article in Smithsonian mumble years ago
                    that talked about the breeding programs from the Elizabethan through the
                    Victorian eras that produced some "rather interesting" things - most of
                    which we don't have today.

                    I know one of the pics I got from this past weekend shows a
                    2-dozen-petalled rose from one of the Anglo-Saxon herbals.

                    I think the problem is that the original rose was 5 petals (from China,
                    if my Antique Rose Book is correct), and that a heraldic rose was usually
                    shown with 5 petals. So that's what we see, so that's what we remember,
                    style of thing.

                    I'll post the rose pics from the herbal too, next week - 'I'm on
                    vacation, so I don't have internet access till July 5, that's when I'll
                    get the stamped leather rose pics up as well.

                    -Carowyn
                  • Meg
                    Hello, Were you ever able to download those photos? I am still very interested if you have the time. Thank you in advance! Eulalia ... University, and guess
                    Message 9 of 14 , Jul 18, 2007
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                      Hello,
                      Were you ever able to download those photos? I am still very
                      interested if you have the time. Thank you in advance!
                      Eulalia


                      > Greetings!
                      >
                      > Funny you should ask about roses on leather....
                      >
                      > A bunch of Scadians just went to the rare books room at Penn State
                      University, and guess
                      > what's stamped into the leather of the front and back bindings??
                      Go on, just guess.....!
                      >
                      > hee hee hee!!
                      >
                      > I got *lots* of digital pics, the book's from 1497, I'll post them
                      when I get back home.....
                      >
                      > -Carowyn
                      >
                    • Carowyn Silveroak
                      Oh, er, hi! ... I shall....there s a reason I haven t..... About a month ago, right after that trip to the library, my computer went splody - and every
                      Message 10 of 14 , Jul 19, 2007
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                        Oh, er, hi!

                        > Were you ever able to download those photos? I am still very
                        > interested if you have the time. Thank you in advance!
                        > Eulalia

                        I shall....there's a reason I haven't.....

                        About a month ago, right after that trip to the library, my computer went
                        "splody" - and every single email from the past 6 years merged into one
                        HUGE folder - I had to slog through 25,000 emails to see what I had filed
                        and what I needed to answer! I'm still slogging, and when I asked my
                        works-as-a-computer-tech husband to just grab the backup that I *know*
                        he's been making regularly....well. There was some serious screaming
                        that night.....

                        So I'm still recovering - but I need reminders! Thank you, and I'll post
                        them next week!

                        -Carowyn (slog slog)
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