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Re: Boiled Leather

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  • ren_junkie
    Chrome-tanned? I d be really surprised if you had good long-lasting results with that. You want to use veg-tan leather. Chrome tanned has qualities which
    Message 1 of 24 , Feb 1, 2007
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      Chrome-tanned? I'd be really surprised if you had good long-lasting
      results with that. You want to use veg-tan leather. Chrome tanned
      has qualities which really make it less than ideal for hardening.

      As far as a hardening liquid, you want to use a WATER-SOLUBLE glue
      like A hide glue, or Titebond (the Titebond family cure to an
      incredible hardness). If you use Titebond, I am told to mix it 1
      part glue to 10 parts water. You can soak it or brush it on. This
      differs from the heat-methods (cuirboulie (boiling) and cuircuit
      (baking wet leather)) in that you are not changing the molecular
      structure of the leather, but you are adding a subtance which gets
      rigid on it's own. The leather really isn't any harder, but now it
      has a skelton of sorts in the fibers. In the Middle Ages, research
      sort of points to hide-glue in addition to adding heat.

      As far as baking vs boiling. Baking has a few distinct advantages.
      actually, I don't know of any advantages boiling really has. Baking
      means that you are working with wet leather at room temperature. You
      shape it, tool it, whatever. You can cut darts, and lace things
      together. You have time to work with it, and if it dries before
      you're done, put it back in the water, let it case, and pick up
      where you left off. After you have the shape you want, you just bake
      it at 180 for 20 min. Check it, and repeat untill it is dry and at
      the stiffness you want (remember that thinner leathers won't get as
      stiff as thicker ones). If any part of it starts to look scorched,
      GET IT OUT!!!! Scorched will be brittle. Also you want to let it sit
      on a few layers of aluminum foil, as this helps prevent scorching on
      the contact points. Now, as far as quality of hardening advantages,
      baking means that the water has permeated all the way thru the
      leather, which means the heat will also permeate all the way. It's
      the heat that changes the molecular stucture somewhat, making it
      hard. The water is just a carrier for the heat, since leather is a
      good insulator. It allows even heating. Putting the leather into hot
      or boiling water, you really don't get the full penetration, it sort
      of takes on a shell. Plus, it shrinks more, and has more
      discoloration. Baking has very little deformation (as long as you
      MONITOR it), and almost no discoloration. Plus you don't need gloves
      to work with the leather during shaping. One more thing...the
      leather will eventually soften (if you boil it, it may be brittle
      enough to crack under use). To re-harden it, just soak it, fix any
      deformation that use and being beat on may have caused, and the bake
      it again. You can add the previously mentioned glue during the
      baking process...it may smell odd, but it's safe.

      Check out www.houseofthewolf.com to see what baking can do. Go to
      the gallery page, go to the bottom. Click on the shovel greave and
      bazuband tutorials. He walks you thru the process of making those
      particular bits of armour, but also how he hardens them.

      Good luck.
      CJ

      --- In medieval-leather@yahoogroups.com, "Alan" <turtlelord52@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > A few of us experimented with boiled leather last summer using
      crom-
      > tanned tooling sides, armor weight from Texas Wholesale Leather.
      >
      > Our best results came from: 1) soaking the leather in hot, but
      not
      > so hot that you couldn't handle it, water - 2) shaping the leather
      on
      > some sort of mold (we used a short piece of 3" plastic sewer pipe
      to
      > shape arm armor) - 3) pour boiling water over the leather until
      just
      > before it started to curl (we used a control strip of scrap
      leather) -
      > 4) put the mold and leather in the hot sun and made sure the
      leather
      > did not come off the mold until it was almost dry (at this point,
      the
      > curved leather tried to flatten out so we braced it with old
      glasses
      > and bottles for the next step) - 5) bake in a 175 degree F oven on
      a
      > cheap tin cookie sheet covered with parchment paper (where the
      > leather touched the tin we had black marks) until it appears dry
      (no
      > damp looking spots) - 6) remove from oven and set in something to
      > cool (curved leather will still try to flatten out while cooling).
      >
      > If you bake it too long, it will get crunchy on the edges. Again
      we
      > used a test strip by putting it in the oven ten minutes before the
      > curved leather. When it started to get crisp and crunchy,
      everything
      > came out.
      >
      > When completly dry (air dried for two days after baking) dye,
      drill
      > and rivet (don't try using a leather punch, it's like trying to
      punch
      > through a board). To make the leather shiney, I used Kiwi edge
      > dressing. I made black leather because my stuff baked first and
      had
      > lots of black spots on it. We added the parchment baking paper
      for
      > the other tests.
      >
      > Leather smells funky when baking - I suggest only doing this when
      you
      > can open the windows and air out the house. Our mold was too big
      for
      > arm armor, so we're making smaller molds for this spring.
      >
    • Red
      OK, I agree and disagree on different points here. Yes, use veg, not chrome. They have distinctly different properties, and from years of research and
      Message 2 of 24 , Feb 1, 2007
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        OK, I agree and disagree on different points here. Yes, use veg, not
        chrome. They have distinctly different properties, and from years of
        research and experimentation, I can tell you that veg is far superior
        for forming and hardening. And it is the traditional material. Chrome
        tanning is less than 200 years old.

        I disagree with the assumption that hot water is an inferior process.
        It is a little harder to learn how to control, but it has some
        distinct advantages. But there are some steps that most people forget.

        The advantage of using hot water is that for the first few minutes
        (while the item is still hot) you get considerably better stretch than
        with cold water. Also, it does thicken a bit and become more dense,
        thereby providing more stability and protection. Less work to get the
        desired effect. Have you tried stretching and moulding saddle skirting
        using only cold water and your hands over a large last? It ain't easy.
        And finally, the heat permanently changes the structure of the
        leather, making it rigid, as well as keeping its shape.

        First and foremost, soak the veg leather in lukewarm water BEFORE
        putting it in the hot water. This prevents the 'Thanksgiving turkey'
        phenomenon of overcooking the outside while the the inside is still
        frozen. By soaking it in lukewarm water first, you are prepping it for
        the heat. The already saturated leather doesn't cook so fast, and heat
        is distributed more evenly. Also, you should keep the leather moving
        in the hot water (I use a big stockpot for most items and get creative
        for really big pieces). Don't let it sit on the bottom or hang off of
        the sides, as the metal is hotter than the water, especially on the
        bottom where the direct heat is. You can dip different sections at
        different times, and even re-dip if necessary, though don't do it too
        long or too often.

        The temperature of the water is important. Don't use boiling water.
        It's just too hot and will cause surface cracks. For thin leathers,
        the water should be about 140 degrees Farenheit, and dip for 30 to 90
        seconds depending on desired stiffness. For skirting weight leather,
        you can go up to 180 for 60 seconds to 5 minutes. The hotter the water
        and the longer you leave it in, the harder, thicker, and more brittle
        it will become. I find no problem with brittleness of skirting weight
        under 180 degrees for under 4 minutes.

        If you have a big piece, soak it in the tub overnight. Then you can do
        basic stretching and pounding. Then drain the tub, and get the water
        running until it is as hot as it will get. This is usually about 140
        to 150 for most good water heaters. Let it soak a bit a longer than
        the 5 minutes at this lower temp. You can pour (nearly) boiling water
        over a last if you like, but make sure it is soaked through with
        lukewarm water first, or it will cook the outside and get brittle, but
        not hard.

        For drying, there are several options. You can just let it air dry. Or
        you can bake it in several different ways. Some people use an oven,
        but this is difficult with large items, and not good use of a plastic
        or metal last. You can put it in your car with the windows rolled up
        on a hot day in an asphalt parking lot. This isn't a bad option, but
        your car will get steamy and it takes awhile. Or you can use my
        personal favorite method, the hair dryer. You can dry it on the last,
        paying attention to areas you are more concerned with, and you get
        good control over the heat. I like to use a drying box made from a
        large cardboard box. If you are going to dry a cuirasse, you can use a
        refrigerator box that you seal up with tape, and use 2 or 3 hair
        dryers pushed into holes in the box. This circulates the air to heat
        evenly, and I have never had a scorched or brittle piece.

        I've used these methods (and tried lots of others) for many years.
        I've gotten great results from masks to drinking vessels to armour.
        I've only had two brittle pieces, and they were both serious mistakes
        (one sat on the bottom of the heated pan, and the other was left on
        the the still lit stove for 20 minutes while the water boiled. Damned
        phone calls.) I've gotten lots of great moulded forms, and nothing has
        gone soft that I didn't want to get soft.

        Remember, this is just my personal experience, and others may have
        completely different experiences.

        Hope this helps. Stepping off of the soapbox now.
        Red
        PS-DON'T put leather in the microwave. Bad, bad experiment. Trust me
        on this one.


        --- In medieval-leather@yahoogroups.com, "ren_junkie" <ren_junkie@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > Chrome-tanned? I'd be really surprised if you had good long-lasting
        > results with that. You want to use veg-tan leather. Chrome tanned
        > has qualities which really make it less than ideal for hardening.
        >
        > As far as a hardening liquid, you want to use a WATER-SOLUBLE glue
        > like A hide glue, or Titebond (the Titebond family cure to an
        > incredible hardness). If you use Titebond, I am told to mix it 1
        > part glue to 10 parts water. You can soak it or brush it on. This
        > differs from the heat-methods (cuirboulie (boiling) and cuircuit
        > (baking wet leather)) in that you are not changing the molecular
        > structure of the leather, but you are adding a subtance which gets
        > rigid on it's own. The leather really isn't any harder, but now it
        > has a skelton of sorts in the fibers. In the Middle Ages, research
        > sort of points to hide-glue in addition to adding heat.
        >
        > As far as baking vs boiling. Baking has a few distinct advantages.
        > actually, I don't know of any advantages boiling really has. Baking
        > means that you are working with wet leather at room temperature. You
        > shape it, tool it, whatever. You can cut darts, and lace things
        > together. You have time to work with it, and if it dries before
        > you're done, put it back in the water, let it case, and pick up
        > where you left off. After you have the shape you want, you just bake
        > it at 180 for 20 min. Check it, and repeat untill it is dry and at
        > the stiffness you want (remember that thinner leathers won't get as
        > stiff as thicker ones). If any part of it starts to look scorched,
        > GET IT OUT!!!! Scorched will be brittle. Also you want to let it sit
        > on a few layers of aluminum foil, as this helps prevent scorching on
        > the contact points. Now, as far as quality of hardening advantages,
        > baking means that the water has permeated all the way thru the
        > leather, which means the heat will also permeate all the way. It's
        > the heat that changes the molecular stucture somewhat, making it
        > hard. The water is just a carrier for the heat, since leather is a
        > good insulator. It allows even heating. Putting the leather into hot
        > or boiling water, you really don't get the full penetration, it sort
        > of takes on a shell. Plus, it shrinks more, and has more
        > discoloration. Baking has very little deformation (as long as you
        > MONITOR it), and almost no discoloration. Plus you don't need gloves
        > to work with the leather during shaping. One more thing...the
        > leather will eventually soften (if you boil it, it may be brittle
        > enough to crack under use). To re-harden it, just soak it, fix any
        > deformation that use and being beat on may have caused, and the bake
        > it again. You can add the previously mentioned glue during the
        > baking process...it may smell odd, but it's safe.
        >
        > Check out www.houseofthewolf.com to see what baking can do. Go to
        > the gallery page, go to the bottom. Click on the shovel greave and
        > bazuband tutorials. He walks you thru the process of making those
        > particular bits of armour, but also how he hardens them.
        >
        > Good luck.
        > CJ
        >
        > --- In medieval-leather@yahoogroups.com, "Alan" <turtlelord52@>
        > wrote:
        > >
        > > A few of us experimented with boiled leather last summer using
        > crom-
        > > tanned tooling sides, armor weight from Texas Wholesale Leather.
        > >
        > > Our best results came from: 1) soaking the leather in hot, but
        > not
        > > so hot that you couldn't handle it, water - 2) shaping the leather
        > on
        > > some sort of mold (we used a short piece of 3" plastic sewer pipe
        > to
        > > shape arm armor) - 3) pour boiling water over the leather until
        > just
        > > before it started to curl (we used a control strip of scrap
        > leather) -
        > > 4) put the mold and leather in the hot sun and made sure the
        > leather
        > > did not come off the mold until it was almost dry (at this point,
        > the
        > > curved leather tried to flatten out so we braced it with old
        > glasses
        > > and bottles for the next step) - 5) bake in a 175 degree F oven on
        > a
        > > cheap tin cookie sheet covered with parchment paper (where the
        > > leather touched the tin we had black marks) until it appears dry
        > (no
        > > damp looking spots) - 6) remove from oven and set in something to
        > > cool (curved leather will still try to flatten out while cooling).
        > >
        > > If you bake it too long, it will get crunchy on the edges. Again
        > we
        > > used a test strip by putting it in the oven ten minutes before the
        > > curved leather. When it started to get crisp and crunchy,
        > everything
        > > came out.
        > >
        > > When completly dry (air dried for two days after baking) dye,
        > drill
        > > and rivet (don't try using a leather punch, it's like trying to
        > punch
        > > through a board). To make the leather shiney, I used Kiwi edge
        > > dressing. I made black leather because my stuff baked first and
        > had
        > > lots of black spots on it. We added the parchment baking paper
        > for
        > > the other tests.
        > >
        > > Leather smells funky when baking - I suggest only doing this when
        > you
        > > can open the windows and air out the house. Our mold was too big
        > for
        > > arm armor, so we're making smaller molds for this spring.
        > >
        >
      • mmagnusol
        Dear Red, Define skirting weight leather please. Very few of us make horse appliances. Numbers will do. Great dissertation otherwise though. Best -I- have seen
        Message 3 of 24 , Feb 2, 2007
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          Dear Red,

          Define skirting weight leather please.
          Very few of us make horse appliances.
          Numbers will do.

          Great dissertation otherwise though.
          Best -I- have seen on using hot water for
          varying thicknesses of leathers
          since the list has been open.

          Thank you,
          Magnus
        • Alan
          I have to agree with several of you here. The chrome leather sort-of worked for awhile, but I really didn t like the result. The test pieces were hung on my
          Message 4 of 24 , Feb 2, 2007
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            I have to agree with several of you here. The chrome leather sort-of
            worked for awhile, but I really didn't like the result. The test
            pieces were hung on my swinging pell and tested to distruction
            (actually they were used to mark the kill point on the pell). I have
            two sides of veg-tanned leather now, and am in the slow process of
            remaking most of my armor.

            Red, thanks for the better descriptions of how to water work leather.
            I'm going to have to build a drying box for my large pieces. I was
            going to set them on a concrete table and cover them with black plastic
            in the bright sun and use a hair dryer to circulate the air. I think
            I'll like the box better.
          • Ron Charlotte
            ... Saddle skirting is uncompressed 12 to 15oz veg tan leather. Ron Charlotte -- Gainesville, FL ronch2@bellsouth.net OR afn03234@afn.org
            Message 5 of 24 , Feb 2, 2007
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              At 09:39 AM 2/2/2007, Magnus wrote:
              >Define skirting weight leather please.
              >Very few of us make horse appliances.
              >Numbers will do.

              Saddle skirting is uncompressed 12 to 15oz veg tan leather.


              Ron Charlotte -- Gainesville, FL
              ronch2@... OR afn03234@...
            • ren_junkie
              You know of course, I have to put in in the microwave now ;) I don t stretch the leather. I don t use lasts or forms. I either use darts and lacing to get my
              Message 6 of 24 , Feb 2, 2007
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                You know of course, I have to put in in the microwave now ;)

                I don't stretch the leather. I don't use lasts or forms. I either
                use darts and lacing to get my shape, or I hammer it into shape.
                Things like vambraces and greaves, you don't need to do much more
                than sorta roll them. Everything else can be darted and/or hammered.
                Even helmets. It makes life easier. As far as big items being a
                promlem in the oven, you would still need pans or pots big enough to
                do hot water immersion. I grant you that it is stretchier when you
                immerse in hot, but you have a uch short ammount of time, and you
                can't go back and re-wet if you don't finish in time. Also, I've
                never seen tooling or color some thru when immersed in hot water.
                Period armour in leather is usually very ornately tooled or carved.
                As far as hardness, I use sole bends or the thick bits of skirting.
                Prefer sole bends. They are plenty thck enough on their own, and
                once you bake them they turn almost to iron. I have some vambraces
                that sound like a wood xylophone if you hit them...lol. baking also
                keeps it from deforming.

                Of course for other things (not talking saddles, that is something I
                can't talk about with any authority or experience) bees or carnuba
                wax may be the way to go. It will, however soften if it gets warm
                enough. I use hot water immersion pretty much exclusively for
                buttons and stuff.

                If you have success with immersion, thaqt's good, but it's just
                easier and less rush rush to use baking. Especially if you don't
                have forms.

                CJ
              • Peter Ellis
                ... Is it really necessary to define industry standard terms ? Gavin
                Message 7 of 24 , Feb 2, 2007
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                  --- In medieval-leather@yahoogroups.com, mmagnusol <MMagnusOL@...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > Dear Red,
                  >
                  > Define skirting weight leather please.
                  > Very few of us make horse appliances.
                  > Numbers will do.
                  >
                  > Great dissertation otherwise though.
                  > Best -I- have seen on using hot water for
                  > varying thicknesses of leathers
                  > since the list has been open.
                  >
                  > Thank you,
                  > Magnus
                  >

                  Is it really necessary to define industry standard terms ?

                  Gavin
                • Peter Ellis
                  ... last while it s cold, then pour or dip the lot into the hardening liquid? Then you could simply cut it loose once it has cooled enough to hold its shape
                  Message 8 of 24 , Feb 2, 2007
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                    --- In medieval-leather@yahoogroups.com, Mark Cantwell
                    <raben2002@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > To All,
                    > Wouldn't it be possible, and easier, to wet form the leather over a
                    last while it's cold, then pour or dip the lot into the hardening
                    liquid? Then you could simply cut it loose once it has cooled enough
                    to hold its shape and then allow it to dry completely.
                    >
                    > Mark Cantwell
                    >

                    Depending on what your lasts are made of. Remember that a last is
                    also a heat sink and in the hot water process it may interfere with
                    how uniformly your leather cooks.

                    Lasts make life distinctly easier when you're forming cool and
                    hardening in an oven. They are still something of a heat sink, but
                    the heat transfer in the oven is a slower process so the impact is
                    not a problem.

                    Peter
                  • Peter Ellis
                    ... superior ... Chrome ... process. Insert - I think assumption is really the wrong word here. Those of us who have made negative comments about hot water
                    Message 9 of 24 , Feb 2, 2007
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                      --- In medieval-leather@yahoogroups.com, "Red" <red@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > OK, I agree and disagree on different points here. Yes, use veg, not
                      > chrome. They have distinctly different properties, and from years of
                      > research and experimentation, I can tell you that veg is far
                      superior
                      > for forming and hardening. And it is the traditional material.
                      Chrome
                      > tanning is less than 200 years old.
                      >
                      > I disagree with the assumption that hot water is an inferior
                      process.

                      Insert - I think "assumption" is really the wrong word here. Those of
                      us who have made negative comments about hot water hardening methods
                      are expressing our opinions based on our experiences. We've had
                      different experiences than you, leading us to different conclusions.

                      >
                      > The advantage of using hot water is that for the first few minutes
                      > (while the item is still hot) you get considerably better stretch
                      than
                      > with cold water. Also, it does thicken a bit and become more dense,
                      > thereby providing more stability and protection. Less work to get
                      the
                      > desired effect. Have you tried stretching and moulding saddle
                      skirting
                      > using only cold water and your hands over a large last? It ain't
                      easy.
                      > And finally, the heat permanently changes the structure of the
                      > leather, making it rigid, as well as keeping its shape.
                      >
                      Insert - I can't say that I've found a meaningful difference in
                      stretching and forming based on temperature, but I also can't say
                      I've really explored that very much. So far I've been able to
                      achieve the shapes I need with cool to warm water.

                      That thickening you refer to comes at the cost of shrinking around
                      the edges. I find that a very annoying trait of the hot water
                      process. Some people may not be bothered by it. I've also found
                      that pieces that have thickened noticeably became remarkably
                      (surprisingly) easy to cut and punch. Those aren't attributes that I
                      desire in what I make.

                      The heating does indeed change the structure of the leather - a
                      certain amount of that is not only desireable but probably definitive
                      of couir boulle. Using the oven to bake the leather gets the heat
                      effect, and I find it to be a much more reproducible and controllable
                      method.

                      My experiences differ from yours.

                      > First and foremost, soak the veg leather in lukewarm water BEFORE
                      > putting it in the hot water. This prevents the 'Thanksgiving turkey'
                      > phenomenon of overcooking the outside while the the inside is still
                      > frozen. By soaking it in lukewarm water first, you are prepping it
                      for
                      > the heat. The already saturated leather doesn't cook so fast, and
                      heat
                      > is distributed more evenly. Also, you should keep the leather moving
                      > in the hot water (I use a big stockpot for most items and get
                      creative
                      > for really big pieces). Don't let it sit on the bottom or hang off
                      of
                      > the sides, as the metal is hotter than the water, especially on the
                      > bottom where the direct heat is. You can dip different sections at
                      > different times, and even re-dip if necessary, though don't do it
                      too
                      > long or too often.
                      >
                      > The temperature of the water is important. Don't use boiling water.
                      > It's just too hot and will cause surface cracks. For thin leathers,
                      > the water should be about 140 degrees Farenheit, and dip for 30 to
                      90
                      > seconds depending on desired stiffness. For skirting weight leather,
                      > you can go up to 180 for 60 seconds to 5 minutes. The hotter the
                      water
                      > and the longer you leave it in, the harder, thicker, and more
                      brittle
                      > it will become. I find no problem with brittleness of skirting
                      weight
                      > under 180 degrees for under 4 minutes.
                      >
                      > If you have a big piece, soak it in the tub overnight. Then you can
                      do
                      > basic stretching and pounding. Then drain the tub, and get the water
                      > running until it is as hot as it will get. This is usually about 140
                      > to 150 for most good water heaters. Let it soak a bit a longer than
                      > the 5 minutes at this lower temp. You can pour (nearly) boiling
                      water
                      > over a last if you like, but make sure it is soaked through with
                      > lukewarm water first, or it will cook the outside and get brittle,
                      but
                      > not hard.
                      >
                      > For drying, there are several options. You can just let it air dry.
                      Or
                      > you can bake it in several different ways. Some people use an oven,
                      > but this is difficult with large items, and not good use of a
                      plastic
                      > or metal last. You can put it in your car with the windows rolled up
                      > on a hot day in an asphalt parking lot. This isn't a bad option, but
                      > your car will get steamy and it takes awhile. Or you can use my
                      > personal favorite method, the hair dryer. You can dry it on the
                      last,
                      > paying attention to areas you are more concerned with, and you get
                      > good control over the heat. I like to use a drying box made from a
                      > large cardboard box. If you are going to dry a cuirasse, you can
                      use a
                      > refrigerator box that you seal up with tape, and use 2 or 3 hair
                      > dryers pushed into holes in the box. This circulates the air to heat
                      > evenly, and I have never had a scorched or brittle piece.
                      >
                      > I've used these methods (and tried lots of others) for many years.
                      > I've gotten great results from masks to drinking vessels to armour.
                      > I've only had two brittle pieces, and they were both serious
                      mistakes
                      > (one sat on the bottom of the heated pan, and the other was left on
                      > the the still lit stove for 20 minutes while the water boiled.
                      Damned
                      > phone calls.) I've gotten lots of great moulded forms, and nothing
                      has
                      > gone soft that I didn't want to get soft.
                      >
                      > Remember, this is just my personal experience, and others may have
                      > completely different experiences.
                      >
                      > Hope this helps. Stepping off of the soapbox now.
                      > Red
                      > PS-DON'T put leather in the microwave. Bad, bad experiment. Trust me
                      > on this one.

                      chuckle... on a theme generally related to hair dryers - be careful
                      using the paint stripper/heat gun. The hair dryers may take awhile,
                      but you won't scorch the leather before you realize that it's even
                      beginning to dry.

                      I can't speak to the specifics of your hardening advice but I find
                      your shaping recommendations to be excellent.

                      Peter
                    • Christopher J
                      I ve noticed everyone is mentioning lasts and forms. Am I the only guy in the world who works with leather and can t make a last? I think in my defence of
                      Message 10 of 24 , Feb 3, 2007
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                        I've noticed everyone is mentioning lasts and forms. Am I the only guy in the world who works with leather and can't make a last? I think in my defence of baking, I have not mentioned that I have no lasts, no forms. I work with a hammer, a stump, some stakes, and an ever increasing understanding of darts and gores. his is one of the primary reasons I go with baking as oppsed to boiling(thant and I don't like the shrinking which destroys my tooling, and the discoloration kills dye jobs). The way I work with it, there simply isn't time to shape it given how long you have to work with the boiling.

                        Just wanted to clarify that before someone thought I was all against boiling. Armour is my main thing, and I tend to work the leather in a similar fashion to steel. There baking is pretty much my option.

                        CJ


                        ---------------------------------
                        Food fight? Enjoy some healthy debate
                        in the Yahoo! Answers Food & Drink Q&A.

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • khailil1180@sbcglobal.net
                        I guess time for Rose of the East, Leather works to put in thier two cent s worth. In my expert opinion, leather is best fried never boiled. It loses all
                        Message 11 of 24 , Feb 3, 2007
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                          I guess time for Rose of the East, Leather works to put in thier two cent's
                          worth. In my expert opinion, leather is best fried never boiled. It loses
                          all flavor when boiled. That's how it done in my house, How about yours?
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "Christopher J" <ren_junkie@...>
                          To: <medieval-leather@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 8:10 PM
                          Subject: [medieval-leather] Re: Boiled Leather


                          > I've noticed everyone is mentioning lasts and forms. Am I the only guy in
                          > the world who works with leather and can't make a last? I think in my
                          > defence of baking, I have not mentioned that I have no lasts, no forms. I
                          > work with a hammer, a stump, some stakes, and an ever increasing
                          > understanding of darts and gores. his is one of the primary reasons I go
                          > with baking as oppsed to boiling(thant and I don't like the shrinking
                          > which destroys my tooling, and the discoloration kills dye jobs). The way
                          > I work with it, there simply isn't time to shape it given how long you
                          > have to work with the boiling.
                          >
                          > Just wanted to clarify that before someone thought I was all against
                          > boiling. Armour is my main thing, and I tend to work the leather in a
                          > similar fashion to steel. There baking is pretty much my option.
                          >
                          > CJ
                          >
                          >
                          > ---------------------------------
                          > Food fight? Enjoy some healthy debate
                          > in the Yahoo! Answers Food & Drink Q&A.
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          >
                        • mmagnusol
                          ... My wife eventually learned to cook. I prefer seafood to sole leather myself. But I suppose the later may have more flavor. To each his own. :-D Magnus
                          Message 12 of 24 , Feb 6, 2007
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                            khailil1180@... wrote:
                            > I guess time for Rose of the East, Leather works to put in thier two cent's
                            > worth. In my expert opinion, leather is best fried never boiled. It loses
                            > all flavor when boiled. That's how it done in my house, How about yours?
                            My wife eventually learned to cook.
                            I prefer seafood to sole leather myself.
                            But I suppose the later may have more flavor.
                            To each his own. :-D

                            Magnus
                          • mmagnusol
                            ... If I wasn t interested in an answer [which would have been about half a sentence] I wouldn t have asked. I do not make saddles and the posting referred to
                            Message 13 of 24 , Feb 6, 2007
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                              Peter Ellis wrote:
                              > --- In medieval-leather@yahoogroups.com, mmagnusol <MMagnusOL@...>
                              > wrote:
                              >
                              >> Dear Red,
                              >>
                              >> Define skirting weight leather please.
                              >> Very few of us make horse appliances.
                              >> Numbers will do.
                              >>
                              >> Great dissertation otherwise though.
                              >> Best -I- have seen on using hot water for
                              >> varying thicknesses of leathers
                              >> since the list has been open.
                              >>
                              >> Thank you,
                              >> Magnus
                              > Is it really necessary to define industry standard terms ?
                              >
                              > Gavin
                              >
                              If I wasn't interested in an answer [which would have been about half
                              a sentence] I wouldn't have asked. I do not make saddles and the
                              posting referred to saddle-skirting a number of times.

                              I have gone out of my way since the list was formed to make people
                              aware of new reference books in a variety of languages, websites
                              and other goodies that took a whole lot more effort than your curt reply.
                              I think I have paid my dues to this list without having to be a large
                              percentage of the postings.

                              Polite would have been nicer. I was. Still am.

                              Magnus
                            • mmagnusol
                              ... Thank you Ron. I have always held your postings in highest regards. And not only on this list. You seem to have a high knowledge of multiple crafts.
                              Message 14 of 24 , Feb 6, 2007
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                                Ron Charlotte wrote:
                                > At 09:39 AM 2/2/2007, Magnus wrote:
                                >
                                >> Define skirting weight leather please.
                                >> Very few of us make horse appliances.
                                >> Numbers will do.
                                >>
                                >
                                > Saddle skirting is uncompressed 12 to 15oz veg tan leather.
                                >
                                >
                                > Ron Charlotte -- Gainesville, FL
                                > ronch2@... OR afn03234@...
                                >
                                Thank you Ron. I have always held your postings in highest regards.
                                And not only on this list. You seem to have a high knowledge
                                of multiple crafts.

                                Magnus
                              • Ron Charlotte
                                ... Much obliged. Over the years, your bibliographies and postings have helped my own research on more than a few occasions. It s nice to be able to return
                                Message 15 of 24 , Feb 8, 2007
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                                  At 02:18 AM 2/7/2007, Magnus wrote:
                                  >Thank you Ron. I have always held your postings in highest regards.
                                  >And not only on this list. You seem to have a high knowledge
                                  >of multiple crafts.

                                  Much obliged. Over the years, your bibliographies and postings have
                                  helped my own research on more than a few occasions. It's nice to
                                  be able to return the favor.


                                  Ron Charlotte -- Gainesville, FL
                                  ronch2@... OR afn03234@...
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