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Re: Wax OR water hardening leather.

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  • Jon Terris
    ... Is that the general consensus? Does water hardening give a more rigid leather than wax hardening? If so, will the technique of heating the leather and THEN
    Message 1 of 16 , Mar 1 2:14 AM
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      --- In medieval-leather@yahoogroups.com, <khailil1180@...> wrote:
      >
      > Have to agree, veg tanned works best when water hardened.

      Is that the general consensus?

      Does water hardening give a more rigid leather than wax hardening?

      If so, will the technique of heating the leather and THEN applying
      water work or does it have to be dipped?

      Again, I'm worried about ruining the work I've done so far- my one
      experience of water dipped leather came out hard but VERY scarred.

      Anyone have any advice on the safest way to do this without ruining
      everything?

      Please? Pretty Please?

      Jon.
    • Neil Carr
      ... Soak the leather through, then bake at ~75 degr. This is a lot safer than dipping into hot water, IMO. I don t think heating then applying water will work
      Message 2 of 16 , Mar 1 5:24 AM
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        Jon Terris wrote:

        > --- In medieval-leather@yahoogroups.com, <khailil1180@...> wrote:
        > >
        > > Have to agree, veg tanned works best when water hardened.
        >
        > Is that the general consensus?
        >
        > Does water hardening give a more rigid leather than wax hardening?
        >
        > If so, will the technique of heating the leather and THEN applying
        > water work or does it have to be dipped?
        >
        > Again, I'm worried about ruining the work I've done so far- my one
        > experience of water dipped leather came out hard but VERY scarred.
        >
        > Anyone have any advice on the safest way to do this without ruining
        > everything?
        >
        > Please? Pretty Please?
        >
        > Jon.
        >
        >
        Soak the leather through, then bake at ~75 degr. This is a lot safer
        than dipping into hot water, IMO. I don't think heating then applying
        water will work very well.
        Thomas
      • Alasdair Muckart
        ... I say it depends . You can t water harden chrome-tanned leather, and you can t mould wax-hardened leather the way you can with water hardened veg tan. Veg
        Message 3 of 16 , Mar 1 10:45 AM
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          On Wednesday 01 March 2006 23:14, Jon Terris wrote:
          > --- In medieval-leather@yahoogroups.com, <khailil1180@...> wrote:
          > > Have to agree, veg tanned works best when water hardened.
          >
          > Is that the general consensus?

          I say "it depends". You can't water harden chrome-tanned leather, and you
          can't mould wax-hardened leather the way you can with water hardened veg tan.
          Veg tan goes _really_ floppy and stretchy for a while after it comes out of
          the hot water -- even more so than when soaked in cold water -- and can be
          moulded into quite deep shapes that you can't do with chrome tanned leather.

          > Does water hardening give a more rigid leather than wax hardening?

          When it's warm, yes. When cold, not significantly but it all depends on the
          leather, the wax, and the degree of water hardening.

          > If so, will the technique of heating the leather and THEN applying
          > water work or does it have to be dipped?

          Water hardening is a very different process to wax hardening. You want to
          (gently) heat the leather before wax hardening to make sure it is dry so you
          don't get inadvertent water hardening happening when damp patches hit the hot
          wax. Having it warm also allows the wax to penetrate better before it cools
          down.

          When water hardening, I've had more consistent results dipping rather than
          baking because I've had it dry out before it all really came up to temp. I
          soak the leather in warm water first and then dip it into 80c water to harden
          it. Keep careful control over the temperature, and read a whole bunch about
          the subject before you try it :-)

          > Again, I'm worried about ruining the work I've done so far- my one
          > experience of water dipped leather came out hard but VERY scarred.

          The key thing to remember is that leather shrinks by around 30% when water
          hardened. If you've built something without planning to water harden it from
          the outset, then it's possibly not the best thing to do.

          Because of the shrinkage, water hardening carved or incised leather causes the
          incisions to open very noticeably and the carving to distort. Try it out on
          some scrap and you'll see what I mean. This shrinkage varies depending on
          what part of the hide you're working with too.

          > Anyone have any advice on the safest way to do this without ruining
          > everything?

          Read lots on it. Test pieces of different leathers, different areas of the
          hide, different carving, different temperatures of water and log the
          conditions and the results. Practice on larger differently shaped pieces
          until you feel confident.

          --
          Al.
          http://where.else.net.nz
        • khailil1180@sbcglobal.net
          My final comment. On this subject. The hardened leather items I sell on my Ebay store are treated this way. This process is for veg tanned leather only. I
          Message 4 of 16 , Mar 1 9:57 PM
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            My final comment. On this subject.

            The hardened leather items I sell on my Ebay store are treated this way.
            This process is for veg tanned leather only. I fully make the piece, what
            ever it may be. Tool, dye and assemble.

            *** soak it throughly in a bucket of water. Then preheat theoven to 180
            degrees. Set the timer for about 20 minutes and let them bake... take them
            out and let them air dry for a bit than spray them with saddle lac.( It's a
            lacquer based finish, that will harden the leather somewhat.)

            . Say what you want, but this is what works for me. But that is what
            leather work is all about. There is no one set way to do anything. There
            are many paths to ones desired results. That is a big part of my day job at
            Tandy, instructing people how to get from point A to Point B with their
            project. Plus I have to factor in skill level & how much someone is willing
            to spend.

            Thats my story, Im sticking to it.
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Alasdair Muckart" <silver@...>
            To: <medieval-leather@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2006 12:45 PM
            Subject: Re: [medieval-leather] Re: Wax OR water hardening leather.


            > On Wednesday 01 March 2006 23:14, Jon Terris wrote:
            >> --- In medieval-leather@yahoogroups.com, <khailil1180@...> wrote:
            >> > Have to agree, veg tanned works best when water hardened.
            >>
            >> Is that the general consensus?
            >
            > I say "it depends". You can't water harden chrome-tanned leather, and you
            > can't mould wax-hardened leather the way you can with water hardened veg
            > tan.
            > Veg tan goes _really_ floppy and stretchy for a while after it comes out
            > of
            > the hot water -- even more so than when soaked in cold water -- and can be
            > moulded into quite deep shapes that you can't do with chrome tanned
            > leather.
            >
            >> Does water hardening give a more rigid leather than wax hardening?
            >
            > When it's warm, yes. When cold, not significantly but it all depends on
            > the
            > leather, the wax, and the degree of water hardening.
            >
            >> If so, will the technique of heating the leather and THEN applying
            >> water work or does it have to be dipped?
            >
            > Water hardening is a very different process to wax hardening. You want to
            > (gently) heat the leather before wax hardening to make sure it is dry so
            > you
            > don't get inadvertent water hardening happening when damp patches hit the
            > hot
            > wax. Having it warm also allows the wax to penetrate better before it
            > cools
            > down.
            >
            > When water hardening, I've had more consistent results dipping rather than
            > baking because I've had it dry out before it all really came up to temp. I
            > soak the leather in warm water first and then dip it into 80c water to
            > harden
            > it. Keep careful control over the temperature, and read a whole bunch
            > about
            > the subject before you try it :-)
            >
            >> Again, I'm worried about ruining the work I've done so far- my one
            >> experience of water dipped leather came out hard but VERY scarred.
            >
            > The key thing to remember is that leather shrinks by around 30% when water
            > hardened. If you've built something without planning to water harden it
            > from
            > the outset, then it's possibly not the best thing to do.
            >
            > Because of the shrinkage, water hardening carved or incised leather causes
            > the
            > incisions to open very noticeably and the carving to distort. Try it out
            > on
            > some scrap and you'll see what I mean. This shrinkage varies depending on
            > what part of the hide you're working with too.
            >
            >> Anyone have any advice on the safest way to do this without ruining
            >> everything?
            >
            > Read lots on it. Test pieces of different leathers, different areas of the
            > hide, different carving, different temperatures of water and log the
            > conditions and the results. Practice on larger differently shaped pieces
            > until you feel confident.
            >
            > --
            > Al.
            > http://where.else.net.nz
            >
            >
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
          • ren_junkie
            In my experience baking the leather does not cause it to shrink nearly as much as the dipping in hot water method. It also cause a lot less discoloration. You
            Message 5 of 16 , Mar 2 11:25 PM
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              In my experience baking the leather does not cause it to shrink
              nearly as much as the dipping in hot water method. It also cause a
              lot less discoloration.

              You have trouble with the leather drying before you bake it? never
              heard of that before. You need to soak it thoroughly before you do
              anything with it. It should be in a bucket or a tub or something,
              and soak till it stops bubbling. If the water isn't permiated all
              the way thru, it woun't get as rigid as it ought. If you soaked it
              right it will take a long time before it is even cased. Usually it's
              hours after getting out of the water with my pieces before they're
              cased. Then just do the baking at about 180. Dipping in hot water
              does make it stretchy for a a while, but it usually doesn't soak all
              the way thru (even tho it gets VERY rigid), hot water can suck
              (owie), and the shrinkage is worse. It also is very hard to do that
              with a breastplate. Sides, stretching thins the leather, making it a
              bit weaker. If you hammer it, it compresses rather than stretches
              allowing you to move leather to the spots you need more thickness
              at, and it compresses it giving you better density.

              Saddle lac after 20 minutes? I didn't know you could do that. Do you
              keep baking after the saddle lac application? After 20 minutes my
              leather is still often a bit floppy. My bake times go on usually for
              hours, checking every 20 min. I've heard that rabbit glue works
              great applied every 20 min or so of baking till it's dried. What's
              you're ebay store?

              Christopher

              --- In medieval-leather@yahoogroups.com, <khailil1180@...> wrote:
              >
              > My final comment. On this subject.
              >
              > The hardened leather items I sell on my Ebay store are treated
              this way.
              > This process is for veg tanned leather only. I fully make the
              piece, what
              > ever it may be. Tool, dye and assemble.
              >
              > *** soak it throughly in a bucket of water. Then preheat
              theoven to 180
              > degrees. Set the timer for about 20 minutes and let them bake...
              take them
              > out and let them air dry for a bit than spray them with saddle
              lac.( It's a
              > lacquer based finish, that will harden the leather somewhat.)
              >
              > . Say what you want, but this is what works for me. But that is
              what
              > leather work is all about. There is no one set way to do
              anything. There
              > are many paths to ones desired results. That is a big part of my
              day job at
              > Tandy, instructing people how to get from point A to Point B
              with their
              > project. Plus I have to factor in skill level & how much someone
              is willing
              > to spend.
              >
              > Thats my story, Im sticking to it.
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: "Alasdair Muckart" <silver@...>
              > To: <medieval-leather@yahoogroups.com>
              > Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2006 12:45 PM
              > Subject: Re: [medieval-leather] Re: Wax OR water hardening leather.
              >
              >
              > > On Wednesday 01 March 2006 23:14, Jon Terris wrote:
              > >> --- In medieval-leather@yahoogroups.com, <khailil1180@> wrote:
              > >> > Have to agree, veg tanned works best when water hardened.
              > >>
              > >> Is that the general consensus?
              > >
              > > I say "it depends". You can't water harden chrome-tanned
              leather, and you
              > > can't mould wax-hardened leather the way you can with water
              hardened veg
              > > tan.
              > > Veg tan goes _really_ floppy and stretchy for a while after it
              comes out
              > > of
              > > the hot water -- even more so than when soaked in cold water --
              and can be
              > > moulded into quite deep shapes that you can't do with chrome
              tanned
              > > leather.
              > >
              > >> Does water hardening give a more rigid leather than wax
              hardening?
              > >
              > > When it's warm, yes. When cold, not significantly but it all
              depends on
              > > the
              > > leather, the wax, and the degree of water hardening.
              > >
              > >> If so, will the technique of heating the leather and THEN
              applying
              > >> water work or does it have to be dipped?
              > >
              > > Water hardening is a very different process to wax hardening.
              You want to
              > > (gently) heat the leather before wax hardening to make sure it
              is dry so
              > > you
              > > don't get inadvertent water hardening happening when damp
              patches hit the
              > > hot
              > > wax. Having it warm also allows the wax to penetrate better
              before it
              > > cools
              > > down.
              > >
              > > When water hardening, I've had more consistent results dipping
              rather than
              > > baking because I've had it dry out before it all really came up
              to temp. I
              > > soak the leather in warm water first and then dip it into 80c
              water to
              > > harden
              > > it. Keep careful control over the temperature, and read a whole
              bunch
              > > about
              > > the subject before you try it :-)
              > >
              > >> Again, I'm worried about ruining the work I've done so far- my
              one
              > >> experience of water dipped leather came out hard but VERY
              scarred.
              > >
              > > The key thing to remember is that leather shrinks by around 30%
              when water
              > > hardened. If you've built something without planning to water
              harden it
              > > from
              > > the outset, then it's possibly not the best thing to do.
              > >
              > > Because of the shrinkage, water hardening carved or incised
              leather causes
              > > the
              > > incisions to open very noticeably and the carving to distort.
              Try it out
              > > on
              > > some scrap and you'll see what I mean. This shrinkage varies
              depending on
              > > what part of the hide you're working with too.
              > >
              > >> Anyone have any advice on the safest way to do this without
              ruining
              > >> everything?
              > >
              > > Read lots on it. Test pieces of different leathers, different
              areas of the
              > > hide, different carving, different temperatures of water and log
              the
              > > conditions and the results. Practice on larger differently
              shaped pieces
              > > until you feel confident.
              > >
              > > --
              > > Al.
              > > http://where.else.net.nz
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
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