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Re: [medieval-leather] Re: Wax hardening leather.

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  • khailil1180@sbcglobal.net
    Have to agree, veg tanned works best when water hardened. As for chrome tanned, I have on insites on how that reacts when hardened. Most chrome tanned
    Message 1 of 16 , Feb 28, 2006
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      Have to agree, veg tanned works best when water hardened. As for chrome
      tanned, I have on insites on how that reacts when hardened. Most chrome
      tanned leather, porduced here in the states, is to lightweight for armor
      use. It is made mostly for horse riding chaps.


      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Al Muckart" <silver@...>
      To: <medieval-leather@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2006 4:06 PM
      Subject: Re: [medieval-leather] Re: Wax hardening leather.


      > On Wednesday 01 March 2006 10:46, Jon Terris wrote:
      >
      >
      >> I've been doing some experiments and wondered if you had a rough
      >> proportion on stearic acid to wax?
      >>
      >> I'm using a bag of wax thats apparently had stearine added already
      >> (pre done for batiking I'm told) but it doesn't seem to be hardening
      >> the leather as much as I'd like. I was wondering if adding more
      >> stearine would help?
      >
      > I melted down some candles to get mine, and chucked in a couple of
      > tablespoons
      > of stearic acid per pound of wax.
      >
      > The comments about fighting in wax hardened armour in the heat are all
      > valid,
      > be particularly aware of this when hardening things like gauntlets. I've
      > come
      > across gauntlets which were SCA legal on a cold day but nowhere near legal
      > on
      > a hot one.
      >
      > Water hardening does avoid this problem, but it doesn't work on
      > chrome-tanned
      > leather and takes a while to master. I don't know what it's like in the US
      > but over here chrome-tanned leather can be had _vastly_ cheaper than
      > veg-tanned stuff.
      >
      > --
      > Al
      > http://where.else.net.nz
      >
      >
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
    • Jon Terris
      ... Is that the general consensus? Does water hardening give a more rigid leather than wax hardening? If so, will the technique of heating the leather and THEN
      Message 2 of 16 , Mar 1 2:14 AM
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        --- In medieval-leather@yahoogroups.com, <khailil1180@...> wrote:
        >
        > Have to agree, veg tanned works best when water hardened.

        Is that the general consensus?

        Does water hardening give a more rigid leather than wax hardening?

        If so, will the technique of heating the leather and THEN applying
        water work or does it have to be dipped?

        Again, I'm worried about ruining the work I've done so far- my one
        experience of water dipped leather came out hard but VERY scarred.

        Anyone have any advice on the safest way to do this without ruining
        everything?

        Please? Pretty Please?

        Jon.
      • Neil Carr
        ... Soak the leather through, then bake at ~75 degr. This is a lot safer than dipping into hot water, IMO. I don t think heating then applying water will work
        Message 3 of 16 , Mar 1 5:24 AM
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          Jon Terris wrote:

          > --- In medieval-leather@yahoogroups.com, <khailil1180@...> wrote:
          > >
          > > Have to agree, veg tanned works best when water hardened.
          >
          > Is that the general consensus?
          >
          > Does water hardening give a more rigid leather than wax hardening?
          >
          > If so, will the technique of heating the leather and THEN applying
          > water work or does it have to be dipped?
          >
          > Again, I'm worried about ruining the work I've done so far- my one
          > experience of water dipped leather came out hard but VERY scarred.
          >
          > Anyone have any advice on the safest way to do this without ruining
          > everything?
          >
          > Please? Pretty Please?
          >
          > Jon.
          >
          >
          Soak the leather through, then bake at ~75 degr. This is a lot safer
          than dipping into hot water, IMO. I don't think heating then applying
          water will work very well.
          Thomas
        • Alasdair Muckart
          ... I say it depends . You can t water harden chrome-tanned leather, and you can t mould wax-hardened leather the way you can with water hardened veg tan. Veg
          Message 4 of 16 , Mar 1 10:45 AM
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            On Wednesday 01 March 2006 23:14, Jon Terris wrote:
            > --- In medieval-leather@yahoogroups.com, <khailil1180@...> wrote:
            > > Have to agree, veg tanned works best when water hardened.
            >
            > Is that the general consensus?

            I say "it depends". You can't water harden chrome-tanned leather, and you
            can't mould wax-hardened leather the way you can with water hardened veg tan.
            Veg tan goes _really_ floppy and stretchy for a while after it comes out of
            the hot water -- even more so than when soaked in cold water -- and can be
            moulded into quite deep shapes that you can't do with chrome tanned leather.

            > Does water hardening give a more rigid leather than wax hardening?

            When it's warm, yes. When cold, not significantly but it all depends on the
            leather, the wax, and the degree of water hardening.

            > If so, will the technique of heating the leather and THEN applying
            > water work or does it have to be dipped?

            Water hardening is a very different process to wax hardening. You want to
            (gently) heat the leather before wax hardening to make sure it is dry so you
            don't get inadvertent water hardening happening when damp patches hit the hot
            wax. Having it warm also allows the wax to penetrate better before it cools
            down.

            When water hardening, I've had more consistent results dipping rather than
            baking because I've had it dry out before it all really came up to temp. I
            soak the leather in warm water first and then dip it into 80c water to harden
            it. Keep careful control over the temperature, and read a whole bunch about
            the subject before you try it :-)

            > Again, I'm worried about ruining the work I've done so far- my one
            > experience of water dipped leather came out hard but VERY scarred.

            The key thing to remember is that leather shrinks by around 30% when water
            hardened. If you've built something without planning to water harden it from
            the outset, then it's possibly not the best thing to do.

            Because of the shrinkage, water hardening carved or incised leather causes the
            incisions to open very noticeably and the carving to distort. Try it out on
            some scrap and you'll see what I mean. This shrinkage varies depending on
            what part of the hide you're working with too.

            > Anyone have any advice on the safest way to do this without ruining
            > everything?

            Read lots on it. Test pieces of different leathers, different areas of the
            hide, different carving, different temperatures of water and log the
            conditions and the results. Practice on larger differently shaped pieces
            until you feel confident.

            --
            Al.
            http://where.else.net.nz
          • khailil1180@sbcglobal.net
            My final comment. On this subject. The hardened leather items I sell on my Ebay store are treated this way. This process is for veg tanned leather only. I
            Message 5 of 16 , Mar 1 9:57 PM
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              My final comment. On this subject.

              The hardened leather items I sell on my Ebay store are treated this way.
              This process is for veg tanned leather only. I fully make the piece, what
              ever it may be. Tool, dye and assemble.

              *** soak it throughly in a bucket of water. Then preheat theoven to 180
              degrees. Set the timer for about 20 minutes and let them bake... take them
              out and let them air dry for a bit than spray them with saddle lac.( It's a
              lacquer based finish, that will harden the leather somewhat.)

              . Say what you want, but this is what works for me. But that is what
              leather work is all about. There is no one set way to do anything. There
              are many paths to ones desired results. That is a big part of my day job at
              Tandy, instructing people how to get from point A to Point B with their
              project. Plus I have to factor in skill level & how much someone is willing
              to spend.

              Thats my story, Im sticking to it.
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Alasdair Muckart" <silver@...>
              To: <medieval-leather@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2006 12:45 PM
              Subject: Re: [medieval-leather] Re: Wax OR water hardening leather.


              > On Wednesday 01 March 2006 23:14, Jon Terris wrote:
              >> --- In medieval-leather@yahoogroups.com, <khailil1180@...> wrote:
              >> > Have to agree, veg tanned works best when water hardened.
              >>
              >> Is that the general consensus?
              >
              > I say "it depends". You can't water harden chrome-tanned leather, and you
              > can't mould wax-hardened leather the way you can with water hardened veg
              > tan.
              > Veg tan goes _really_ floppy and stretchy for a while after it comes out
              > of
              > the hot water -- even more so than when soaked in cold water -- and can be
              > moulded into quite deep shapes that you can't do with chrome tanned
              > leather.
              >
              >> Does water hardening give a more rigid leather than wax hardening?
              >
              > When it's warm, yes. When cold, not significantly but it all depends on
              > the
              > leather, the wax, and the degree of water hardening.
              >
              >> If so, will the technique of heating the leather and THEN applying
              >> water work or does it have to be dipped?
              >
              > Water hardening is a very different process to wax hardening. You want to
              > (gently) heat the leather before wax hardening to make sure it is dry so
              > you
              > don't get inadvertent water hardening happening when damp patches hit the
              > hot
              > wax. Having it warm also allows the wax to penetrate better before it
              > cools
              > down.
              >
              > When water hardening, I've had more consistent results dipping rather than
              > baking because I've had it dry out before it all really came up to temp. I
              > soak the leather in warm water first and then dip it into 80c water to
              > harden
              > it. Keep careful control over the temperature, and read a whole bunch
              > about
              > the subject before you try it :-)
              >
              >> Again, I'm worried about ruining the work I've done so far- my one
              >> experience of water dipped leather came out hard but VERY scarred.
              >
              > The key thing to remember is that leather shrinks by around 30% when water
              > hardened. If you've built something without planning to water harden it
              > from
              > the outset, then it's possibly not the best thing to do.
              >
              > Because of the shrinkage, water hardening carved or incised leather causes
              > the
              > incisions to open very noticeably and the carving to distort. Try it out
              > on
              > some scrap and you'll see what I mean. This shrinkage varies depending on
              > what part of the hide you're working with too.
              >
              >> Anyone have any advice on the safest way to do this without ruining
              >> everything?
              >
              > Read lots on it. Test pieces of different leathers, different areas of the
              > hide, different carving, different temperatures of water and log the
              > conditions and the results. Practice on larger differently shaped pieces
              > until you feel confident.
              >
              > --
              > Al.
              > http://where.else.net.nz
              >
              >
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
            • ren_junkie
              In my experience baking the leather does not cause it to shrink nearly as much as the dipping in hot water method. It also cause a lot less discoloration. You
              Message 6 of 16 , Mar 2 11:25 PM
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                In my experience baking the leather does not cause it to shrink
                nearly as much as the dipping in hot water method. It also cause a
                lot less discoloration.

                You have trouble with the leather drying before you bake it? never
                heard of that before. You need to soak it thoroughly before you do
                anything with it. It should be in a bucket or a tub or something,
                and soak till it stops bubbling. If the water isn't permiated all
                the way thru, it woun't get as rigid as it ought. If you soaked it
                right it will take a long time before it is even cased. Usually it's
                hours after getting out of the water with my pieces before they're
                cased. Then just do the baking at about 180. Dipping in hot water
                does make it stretchy for a a while, but it usually doesn't soak all
                the way thru (even tho it gets VERY rigid), hot water can suck
                (owie), and the shrinkage is worse. It also is very hard to do that
                with a breastplate. Sides, stretching thins the leather, making it a
                bit weaker. If you hammer it, it compresses rather than stretches
                allowing you to move leather to the spots you need more thickness
                at, and it compresses it giving you better density.

                Saddle lac after 20 minutes? I didn't know you could do that. Do you
                keep baking after the saddle lac application? After 20 minutes my
                leather is still often a bit floppy. My bake times go on usually for
                hours, checking every 20 min. I've heard that rabbit glue works
                great applied every 20 min or so of baking till it's dried. What's
                you're ebay store?

                Christopher

                --- In medieval-leather@yahoogroups.com, <khailil1180@...> wrote:
                >
                > My final comment. On this subject.
                >
                > The hardened leather items I sell on my Ebay store are treated
                this way.
                > This process is for veg tanned leather only. I fully make the
                piece, what
                > ever it may be. Tool, dye and assemble.
                >
                > *** soak it throughly in a bucket of water. Then preheat
                theoven to 180
                > degrees. Set the timer for about 20 minutes and let them bake...
                take them
                > out and let them air dry for a bit than spray them with saddle
                lac.( It's a
                > lacquer based finish, that will harden the leather somewhat.)
                >
                > . Say what you want, but this is what works for me. But that is
                what
                > leather work is all about. There is no one set way to do
                anything. There
                > are many paths to ones desired results. That is a big part of my
                day job at
                > Tandy, instructing people how to get from point A to Point B
                with their
                > project. Plus I have to factor in skill level & how much someone
                is willing
                > to spend.
                >
                > Thats my story, Im sticking to it.
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: "Alasdair Muckart" <silver@...>
                > To: <medieval-leather@yahoogroups.com>
                > Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2006 12:45 PM
                > Subject: Re: [medieval-leather] Re: Wax OR water hardening leather.
                >
                >
                > > On Wednesday 01 March 2006 23:14, Jon Terris wrote:
                > >> --- In medieval-leather@yahoogroups.com, <khailil1180@> wrote:
                > >> > Have to agree, veg tanned works best when water hardened.
                > >>
                > >> Is that the general consensus?
                > >
                > > I say "it depends". You can't water harden chrome-tanned
                leather, and you
                > > can't mould wax-hardened leather the way you can with water
                hardened veg
                > > tan.
                > > Veg tan goes _really_ floppy and stretchy for a while after it
                comes out
                > > of
                > > the hot water -- even more so than when soaked in cold water --
                and can be
                > > moulded into quite deep shapes that you can't do with chrome
                tanned
                > > leather.
                > >
                > >> Does water hardening give a more rigid leather than wax
                hardening?
                > >
                > > When it's warm, yes. When cold, not significantly but it all
                depends on
                > > the
                > > leather, the wax, and the degree of water hardening.
                > >
                > >> If so, will the technique of heating the leather and THEN
                applying
                > >> water work or does it have to be dipped?
                > >
                > > Water hardening is a very different process to wax hardening.
                You want to
                > > (gently) heat the leather before wax hardening to make sure it
                is dry so
                > > you
                > > don't get inadvertent water hardening happening when damp
                patches hit the
                > > hot
                > > wax. Having it warm also allows the wax to penetrate better
                before it
                > > cools
                > > down.
                > >
                > > When water hardening, I've had more consistent results dipping
                rather than
                > > baking because I've had it dry out before it all really came up
                to temp. I
                > > soak the leather in warm water first and then dip it into 80c
                water to
                > > harden
                > > it. Keep careful control over the temperature, and read a whole
                bunch
                > > about
                > > the subject before you try it :-)
                > >
                > >> Again, I'm worried about ruining the work I've done so far- my
                one
                > >> experience of water dipped leather came out hard but VERY
                scarred.
                > >
                > > The key thing to remember is that leather shrinks by around 30%
                when water
                > > hardened. If you've built something without planning to water
                harden it
                > > from
                > > the outset, then it's possibly not the best thing to do.
                > >
                > > Because of the shrinkage, water hardening carved or incised
                leather causes
                > > the
                > > incisions to open very noticeably and the carving to distort.
                Try it out
                > > on
                > > some scrap and you'll see what I mean. This shrinkage varies
                depending on
                > > what part of the hide you're working with too.
                > >
                > >> Anyone have any advice on the safest way to do this without
                ruining
                > >> everything?
                > >
                > > Read lots on it. Test pieces of different leathers, different
                areas of the
                > > hide, different carving, different temperatures of water and log
                the
                > > conditions and the results. Practice on larger differently
                shaped pieces
                > > until you feel confident.
                > >
                > > --
                > > Al.
                > > http://where.else.net.nz
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
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