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Re: [medieval-leather] Re: Period leather glue

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  • Alasdair Muckart
    On Saturday 08 October 2005 13:23, Chris Nickel wrote: Hi Chris, ... Interesting. I ve not had that happen to me so obviously we re doing something
    Message 1 of 16 , Oct 7, 2005
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      On Saturday 08 October 2005 13:23, Chris Nickel wrote:

      Hi Chris,

      > I put the stich anout 1/16th of an inch from the edge. The pieces
      > stay together nicley until I wax them. At that point the edges
      > spread apart.

      Interesting. I've not had that happen to me so obviously we're doing something
      differently. What weight leather are you using, and how are you waxing it?
      Are you getting it particularly hot in the process of waxing?

      --
      Al.
    • Neil Carr
      ... I ve found running a slicker and one of those round groove thingies (belt edger?) over the edges (wet) helps knit the two sides together. Repeat after
      Message 2 of 16 , Oct 8, 2005
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        Chris Nickel wrote:

        >
        > I put the stich anout 1/16th of an inch from the edge. The pieces
        > stay together nicley until I wax them. At that point the edges
        > spread apart.
        > -Erich

        I've found running a slicker and one of those round groove thingies
        (belt edger?) over the edges (wet) helps knit the two sides together.
        Repeat after waxing .
        You have to run it parallel to the edge, und really mash it down so the
        edge looks really smooth, almost polished.

        homemade leaf glue should be totally non-toxic, depending on where the
        skins come from. Commercial hide glue for woodworking, I'm not so sure.
        You can also get the rabbitskin glue from art suppliers (used in gesso),
        I'm reasonably sure it's still made the old-fashioned way. But if you
        really want the glue to stop edge-spreading, try my above suggestion first.

        Caveat - I've only ever made 2 of the darn things. Well, 1.8, anyway...

        Thomas/Neil
      • Chris Nickel
        ... something ... waxing it? ... I am using 4 oz leather for the bottles. I form them buy soaking them for an hour or so and then pack them with sand. After
        Message 3 of 16 , Oct 8, 2005
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          > Interesting. I've not had that happen to me so obviously we're doing
          something
          > differently. What weight leather are you using, and how are you
          waxing it?
          > Are you getting it particularly hot in the process of waxing?
          >
          > --
          > Al.
          >
          I am using 4 oz leather for the bottles.
          I form them buy soaking them for an hour or so and then pack them with
          sand. After they are dry. (2 to 3 days) I empty the sand out and put
          them in an oven set to 200 degrees where I use bee's wax to wax the
          outside. When they have cooled down again I fill them with bee's wax
          and then pour it out to seal the insides.
          Pretty standard method I think.
          I just gotta find a way to keep those edges together.
          Hmmm, maybe I could use gum tragacanth.....
          -Erich
        • Neil Carr
          ... Why not skip this bit by going straight to the oven? it dries the bottle and sand out quicker, and gives less time to warp. ... I hope that s Fahrenheit...
          Message 4 of 16 , Oct 8, 2005
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            Chris Nickel wrote:

            >
            > I am using 4 oz leather for the bottles.
            > I form them buy soaking them for an hour or so and then pack them with
            > sand. After they are dry. (2 to 3 days)

            Why not skip this bit by going straight to the oven? it dries the bottle
            and sand out quicker, and gives less time to warp.

            > I empty the sand out and put
            > them in an oven set to 200 degrees


            I hope that's Fahrenheit... I baked at 75-85 deg. C, straight from wet
            sand-packed.

            > where I use bee's wax to wax the
            > outside. When they have cooled down again I fill them with bee's wax
            > and then pour it out to seal the insides.

            I don't think you need to wax the outside to waterproof, the inner
            waxing should work just fine.

            > Pretty standard method I think.
            > I just gotta find a way to keep those edges together.
            > Hmmm, maybe I could use gum tragacanth.....

            ...will gum hold up under being immersed in wax, or be dissolved?

            Thomas/Neil
          • Ron Charlotte
            ... Yup, from what you are describing, you probably want to go with the hide glue. It s about as inoffensive as it gets, and once set, on leather, it s pretty
            Message 5 of 16 , Oct 8, 2005
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              At 08:23 PM 10/7/2005, Erich wrote:
              >I put the stich anout 1/16th of an inch from the edge. The pieces
              >stay together nicley until I wax them. At that point the edges
              >spread apart.

              Yup, from what you are describing, you probably want to go with the hide
              glue. It's about as inoffensive as it gets, and once set, on leather, it's
              pretty much forever.


              Ron Charlotte -- Gainesville, FL
              ronch2@... OR afn03234@...
            • Alasdair Muckart
              On Saturday 08 October 2005 23:17, Chris Nickel wrote: Hi Chris, ... It sounds to me like your edge-spreading problems may be a result of excessive leather
              Message 6 of 16 , Oct 8, 2005
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                On Saturday 08 October 2005 23:17, Chris Nickel wrote:

                Hi Chris,

                > > Interesting. I've not had that happen to me so obviously we're doing
                > > something differently. What weight leather are you using, and how are you
                > > waxing it? Are you getting it particularly hot in the process of waxing?
                >
                > I am using 4 oz leather for the bottles.
                > I form them buy soaking them for an hour or so and then pack them with
                > sand. After they are dry. (2 to 3 days) I empty the sand out and put
                > them in an oven set to 200 degrees where I use bee's wax to wax the
                > outside. When they have cooled down again I fill them with bee's wax
                > and then pour it out to seal the insides.
                > Pretty standard method I think.

                It sounds to me like your edge-spreading problems may be a result of excessive
                leather shrinkage during the heating phase. If this is the case then glue
                isn't going to help much, unless you use superglue. Are you welting the
                seams?

                Assuming you're using the Fahrenheit scale, 200 is 93 and a bit centigrade,
                which is quite a bit hotter than I tend to allow damp leather to get. I do
                jacks at no more than 80 centigrade/176 Fahrenheit and I do them straight
                from wet without letting them dry out much first. I also dry them on the form
                to avoid distortion when they get hot. I got my best results using a
                fan-forced oven.

                What I've found is that when they get too hot the welt shrinks quite a lot and
                pulls the whole thing out of true, and the outside bits of leather shrink and
                do wierd things to the seams. I suspect that this is what you're seeing.

                --
                Al.
              • Chris Nickel
                ... doing ... how are you ... of waxing? ... them with ... put ... the ... wax ... of excessive ... then glue ... welting the ... centigrade, ... get. I do ...
                Message 7 of 16 , Oct 10, 2005
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                  --- In medieval-leather@yahoogroups.com, Alasdair Muckart
                  <silver@w...> wrote:
                  >
                  > On Saturday 08 October 2005 23:17, Chris Nickel wrote:
                  >
                  > Hi Chris,
                  >
                  > > > Interesting. I've not had that happen to me so obviously we're
                  doing
                  > > > something differently. What weight leather are you using, and
                  how are you
                  > > > waxing it? Are you getting it particularly hot in the process
                  of waxing?
                  > >
                  > > I am using 4 oz leather for the bottles.
                  > > I form them buy soaking them for an hour or so and then pack
                  them with
                  > > sand. After they are dry. (2 to 3 days) I empty the sand out and
                  put
                  > > them in an oven set to 200 degrees where I use bee's wax to wax
                  the
                  > > outside. When they have cooled down again I fill them with bee's
                  wax
                  > > and then pour it out to seal the insides.
                  > > Pretty standard method I think.
                  >
                  > It sounds to me like your edge-spreading problems may be a result
                  of excessive
                  > leather shrinkage during the heating phase. If this is the case
                  then glue
                  > isn't going to help much, unless you use superglue. Are you
                  welting the
                  > seams?
                  >
                  > Assuming you're using the Fahrenheit scale, 200 is 93 and a bit
                  centigrade,
                  > which is quite a bit hotter than I tend to allow damp leather to
                  get. I do
                  > jacks at no more than 80 centigrade/176 Fahrenheit and I do them
                  straight
                  > from wet without letting them dry out much first. I also dry them
                  on the form
                  > to avoid distortion when they get hot. I got my best results using
                  a
                  > fan-forced oven.
                  >
                  > What I've found is that when they get too hot the welt shrinks
                  quite a lot and
                  > pulls the whole thing out of true, and the outside bits of leather
                  shrink and
                  > do wierd things to the seams. I suspect that this is what you're
                  seeing.
                  >
                  > --
                  > Al.
                  >
                  I allow the leather to totaly dry before i put it into the oven. I
                  tried waxing damp leather once and wound up with a piece with the
                  consistancy of a potato chip. If I was just heat drying and then
                  pitching the bottals then, yeah 200 is probably to hot. But I am
                  waxing the outsida as well as the inside of the bottle, the 20o
                  degree temp opens the pores and allows the leather to accept the wax
                  more easaly.
                  -Erich
                • Tim Bray
                  You can t get leather totally dry without cooking it; there is always some moisture bound up in the fibers. Then when you cook it at 200 F, the surface will
                  Message 8 of 16 , Oct 10, 2005
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                    You can't get leather "totally dry" without cooking it; there is always
                    some moisture bound up in the fibers. Then when you cook it at 200 F, the
                    surface will partially polymerize, causing it to shrink, which is causing
                    your edge seams to open up.

                    The solution seems obvious - reduce the heat. From what I've read, and
                    from my own experiments, if you stay below 180 F you will be fine. 175 -
                    180 should still give you decent wax penetration.

                    Just my 2 deniers worth. (Yes, I've been watching "Rome!")

                    Cheers,
                    Colin


                    At 02:36 PM 10/10/2005 +0000, you wrote:
                    >I allow the leather to totaly dry before i put it into the oven. I
                    >tried waxing damp leather once and wound up with a piece with the
                    >consistancy of a potato chip. If I was just heat drying and then
                    >pitching the bottals then, yeah 200 is probably to hot. But I am
                    >waxing the outsida as well as the inside of the bottle, the 20o
                    >degree temp opens the pores and allows the leather to accept the wax
                    >more easaly.


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Michael Sheldon
                    ... Seems pretty thin to me. For my large bottel, I used 10oz leather. For smaller ones, I never use less than 6-7oz leather. Michael J. Sheldon aka Aoidhean
                    Message 9 of 16 , Oct 11, 2005
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                      > I am using 4 oz leather for the bottles.

                      Seems pretty thin to me.

                      For my large bottel, I used 10oz leather. For smaller ones, I never use less
                      than 6-7oz leather.


                      Michael J. Sheldon
                      aka Aoidhean Ó Toirdhealbhach
                      http://www.gaeliccrossings.com/
                      GuildMaster, Fewterers Guild
                      http://www.fewterersguild.org/
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                      http://www.greyhoundsoffairhaven.org/
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