Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [medieval-leather] Digest Number 1305

Expand Messages
  • michael tartaglio
    Message 1 of 10 , May 10, 2005
    • 0 Attachment
      >
      >hello all i am new the this woulderful group. i am just starting out
      >with leather work. i have been making medieval clothing for several
      >years and now i would like to try my hand out with leather. i am
      >looking for info and or patterns or lplaces to get good ideas for
      >making leather clothing, armour, anything leather and medieval. if
      >any one can help i say thank you in advance.
      >
      >mike
      >
      >
      >
      >Hi, Mike. If you have studied medieval clothing and armor you will already have an idea of some extant pieces that are made of leather. There is, to my knowledge, little to no clothing unless you count shoes, purses and gloves and that one capey thing with the cockleshell badges on it (and maybe one Norse sheepskin cap, but I'm not sure of it's whereabouts). There is some armor, such as the piece shown on pg 315 of English Medieval Industries. The majority of what could be classified as clothing in leather occurs from the 16th Cent. The Mary Rose wreck museum has some doublet or jerkin pieces, the Museum of London has a nice pierced jerkin and there is an article done by Janet Arnold on leather fencing doublets of the late 16th/early 17th Cents.There was also a house in Germany that had the floor pulled out, and a few clothing pieces (a leather slashed sleeve, I think) fell out. You might want to locate a book called "Leather and the Warrior" by John Waterer for armor info. If you need cites and ISBN #s, I can put them out there. Cheers, Mike T.
      >
      >
    • michael jaray
      thank you very much mike i will try to find that book. again thankyou for responding mke j ... need cites and ISBN #s, I can put them out there. Cheers, Mike
      Message 2 of 10 , May 10, 2005
      • 0 Attachment
        thank you very much mike i will try to find that book. again thankyou for responding

        mke j

        michael tartaglio <mikes@...> wrote:

        >
        >hello all i am new the this woulderful group. i am just starting out
        >with leather work. i have been making medieval clothing for several
        >years and now i would like to try my hand out with leather. i am
        >looking for info and or patterns or lplaces to get good ideas for
        >making leather clothing, armour, anything leather and medieval. if
        >any one can help i say thank you in advance.
        >
        >mike
        >
        >
        >
        >Hi, Mike. If you have studied medieval clothing and armor you will already have an idea of some extant pieces that are made of leather. There is, to my knowledge, little to no clothing unless you count shoes, purses and gloves and that one capey thing with the cockleshell badges on it (and maybe one Norse sheepskin cap, but I'm not sure of it's whereabouts). There is some armor, such as the piece shown on pg 315 of English Medieval Industries. The majority of what could be classified as clothing in leather occurs from the 16th Cent. The Mary Rose wreck museum has some doublet or jerkin pieces, the Museum of London has a nice pierced jerkin and there is an article done by Janet Arnold on leather fencing doublets of the late 16th/early 17th Cents.There was also a house in Germany that had the floor pulled out, and a few clothing pieces (a leather slashed sleeve, I think) fell out. You might want to locate a book called "Leather and the Warrior" by John Waterer for armor info. If you
        need cites and ISBN #s, I can put them out there. Cheers, Mike T.
        >
        >



        ---------------------------------
        Yahoo! Groups Links

        To visit your group on the web, go to:
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/medieval-leather/

        To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        medieval-leather-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

        Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


        __________________________________________________
        Do You Yahoo!?
        Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
        http://mail.yahoo.com

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Tiffany Brown
        I found a glancing mention of a fragmentary 12th C leather waistcoat in an irish dig:
        Message 3 of 10 , May 16, 2005
        • 0 Attachment
          I found a glancing mention of a fragmentary 12th C leather waistcoat
          in an irish dig:
          http://www.excavations.ie/Pages/Search.php?year=&county=&site_no=&site_name=&site_type=&report_text=leather+waist-coat&author=&grid_ref=&smr_no=&excavation_license_no=&Submit=Do+Search

          or if that doesn't work, search for "leather waist-coat" at:
          http://www.excavations.ie/Pages/SearchDB.php

          I was facinated by the mention, but haven't gotten around to looking
          up full references yet. However a caution - I very much doubt this is
          a waistcoat if it is in a 12th C context. We are talking an era
          before buttons were widespread, and I'm yet to find any 12th C
          garments with a centre seam, and these seem to normal attributes of a
          waistcoat to me. I'm wondering if it could be something like a
          tradesman's apron, although it could be not clothing at all. The
          naming appears to be from a 1970 report and 12th C clothing knowledge
          has increased greatly since then (even more so than other eras).

          Anyway, worth checking out for the eager. If you do find out more
          about this, I'm happy to look over it with a specialist costumer's
          eye.

          Teffania


          On 5/11/05, michael jaray <lifeline5200@...> wrote:
          > thank you very much mike i will try to find that book. again thankyou for
          > responding
          >
          > mke j
          >
          >
          > michael tartaglio <mikes@...> wrote:
          >
          > >
          > >hello all i am new the this woulderful group. i am just starting out
          > >with leather work. i have been making medieval clothing for several
          > >years and now i would like to try my hand out with leather. i am
          > >looking for info and or patterns or lplaces to get good ideas for
          > >making leather clothing, armour, anything leather and medieval. if
          > >any one can help i say thank you in advance.
          > >
          > >mike
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >Hi, Mike. If you have studied medieval clothing and armor you will already
          > have an idea of some extant pieces that are made of leather. There is, to my
          > knowledge, little to no clothing unless you count shoes, purses and gloves
          > and that one capey thing with the cockleshell badges on it (and maybe one
          > Norse sheepskin cap, but I'm not sure of it's whereabouts). There is some
          > armor, such as the piece shown on pg 315 of English Medieval Industries. The
          > majority of what could be classified as clothing in leather occurs from the
          > 16th Cent. The Mary Rose wreck museum has some doublet or jerkin pieces, the
          > Museum of London has a nice pierced jerkin and there is an article done by
          > Janet Arnold on leather fencing doublets of the late 16th/early 17th
          > Cents.There was also a house in Germany that had the floor pulled out, and a
          > few clothing pieces (a leather slashed sleeve, I think) fell out. You might
          > want to locate a book called "Leather and the Warrior" by John Waterer for
          > armor info. If you
          > need cites and ISBN #s, I can put them out there. Cheers, Mike T.
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          > ---------------------------------
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          > To visit your group on the web, go to:
          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/medieval-leather/
          >
          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > medieval-leather-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
          >
          >
          > __________________________________________________
          > Do You Yahoo!?
          > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
          > http://mail.yahoo.com
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          > ________________________________
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          > To visit your group on the web, go to:
          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/medieval-leather/
          >
          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > medieval-leather-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
        • michael jaray
          thank you very much for your responce and i will let u know if i find any thing else on this thank you again mike Tiffany Brown wrote: I
          Message 4 of 10 , May 17, 2005
          • 0 Attachment
            thank you very much for your responce and i will let u know if i find any thing else on this

            thank you again mike

            Tiffany Brown <teffania@...> wrote:
            I found a glancing mention of a fragmentary 12th C leather waistcoat
            in an irish dig:
            http://www.excavations.ie/Pages/Search.php?year=&county=&site_no=&site_name=&site_type=&report_text=leather+waist-coat&author=&grid_ref=&smr_no=&excavation_license_no=&Submit=Do+Search

            or if that doesn't work, search for "leather waist-coat" at:
            http://www.excavations.ie/Pages/SearchDB.php

            I was facinated by the mention, but haven't gotten around to looking
            up full references yet. However a caution - I very much doubt this is
            a waistcoat if it is in a 12th C context. We are talking an era
            before buttons were widespread, and I'm yet to find any 12th C
            garments with a centre seam, and these seem to normal attributes of a
            waistcoat to me. I'm wondering if it could be something like a
            tradesman's apron, although it could be not clothing at all. The
            naming appears to be from a 1970 report and 12th C clothing knowledge
            has increased greatly since then (even more so than other eras).

            Anyway, worth checking out for the eager. If you do find out more
            about this, I'm happy to look over it with a specialist costumer's
            eye.

            Teffania


            On 5/11/05, michael jaray <lifeline5200@...> wrote:
            > thank you very much mike i will try to find that book. again thankyou for
            > responding
            >
            > mke j
            >
            >
            > michael tartaglio <mikes@...> wrote:
            >
            > >
            > >hello all i am new the this woulderful group. i am just starting out
            > >with leather work. i have been making medieval clothing for several
            > >years and now i would like to try my hand out with leather. i am
            > >looking for info and or patterns or lplaces to get good ideas for
            > >making leather clothing, armour, anything leather and medieval. if
            > >any one can help i say thank you in advance.
            > >
            > >mike
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >Hi, Mike. If you have studied medieval clothing and armor you will already
            > have an idea of some extant pieces that are made of leather. There is, to my
            > knowledge, little to no clothing unless you count shoes, purses and gloves
            > and that one capey thing with the cockleshell badges on it (and maybe one
            > Norse sheepskin cap, but I'm not sure of it's whereabouts). There is some
            > armor, such as the piece shown on pg 315 of English Medieval Industries. The
            > majority of what could be classified as clothing in leather occurs from the
            > 16th Cent. The Mary Rose wreck museum has some doublet or jerkin pieces, the
            > Museum of London has a nice pierced jerkin and there is an article done by
            > Janet Arnold on leather fencing doublets of the late 16th/early 17th
            > Cents.There was also a house in Germany that had the floor pulled out, and a
            > few clothing pieces (a leather slashed sleeve, I think) fell out. You might
            > want to locate a book called "Leather and the Warrior" by John Waterer for
            > armor info. If you
            > need cites and ISBN #s, I can put them out there. Cheers, Mike T.
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            > ---------------------------------
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            > To visit your group on the web, go to:
            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/medieval-leather/
            >
            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > medieval-leather-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
            >
            >
            > __________________________________________________
            > Do You Yahoo!?
            > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
            > http://mail.yahoo.com
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
            > ________________________________
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            > To visit your group on the web, go to:
            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/medieval-leather/
            >
            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > medieval-leather-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


            ---------------------------------
            Yahoo! Groups Links

            To visit your group on the web, go to:
            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/medieval-leather/

            To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            medieval-leather-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



            ---------------------------------
            Yahoo! Mail Mobile
            Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone.

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Marc Carlson
            ... I m inclined to agree with you, up to a point. In general buttons don t appear to be widespread - except of course on shoes :) As for the waistcoat ,
            Message 5 of 10 , May 19, 2005
            • 0 Attachment
              --- In medieval-leather@yahoogroups.com, Tiffany Brown <teffania@g...>
              wrote:
              > I found a glancing mention of a fragmentary 12th C leather
              > waistcoat in an irish dig:
              >http://www.excavations.ie/Pages/Search.php?year=&county=&site_no=&site_name=&site_type=&report_text=leather+waist-coat&author=&grid_ref=&smr_no=&excavation_license_no=&Submit=Do+Search

              > I was facinated by the mention, but haven't gotten around to
              > looking up full references yet. However a caution - I very much
              > doubt this is a waistcoat if it is in a 12th C context. We are
              > talking an era before buttons were widespread, and I'm yet to find
              > any 12th C garments with a centre seam, and these seem to normal
              > attributes of a waistcoat to me. I'm wondering if it could be
              > something like a tradesman's apron, although it could be not
              > clothing at all. The naming appears to be from a 1970 report and
              > 12th C clothing knowledge has increased greatly since then (even
              > more so than other eras).

              I'm inclined to agree with you, up to a point. In general buttons
              don't appear to be widespread - except of course on shoes :) As for
              the "waistcoat", mightn't it be some form of Ionar? (This -is- Ireland
              we're talking about here :) )

              I would be interested in hearing what the article actually has though.

              Marc
            • Tiffany Brown
              ... The other place you find buttons is fastening sideways keyhole necklines on albs (clerical undergarments). Button neckholes were probably fastening
              Message 6 of 10 , May 25, 2005
              • 0 Attachment
                On 5/20/05, Marc Carlson <marccarlson20@...> wrote:
                > --- In medieval-leather@yahoogroups.com, Tiffany Brown
                > <teffania@g...>
                > wrote:
                > > I found a glancing mention of a fragmentary 12th C leather
                > > waistcoat in an irish dig:
                > >http://www.excavations.ie/Pages/Search.php?year=&county=&site_no=&site_name=&site_type=&report_text=leather+waist-coat&author=&grid_ref=&smr_no=&excavation_license_no=&Submit=Do+Search
                >
                > > I was facinated by the mention, but haven't gotten around to
                > > looking up full references yet. However a caution - I very much
                > > doubt this is a waistcoat if it is in a 12th C context. We are
                > > talking an era before buttons were widespread, and I'm yet to find
                > > any 12th C garments with a centre seam, and these seem to normal
                > > attributes of a waistcoat to me. I'm wondering if it could be
                > > something like a tradesman's apron, although it could be not
                > > clothing at all. The naming appears to be from a 1970 report and
                > > 12th C clothing knowledge has increased greatly since then (even
                > > more so than other eras).
                >
                > I'm inclined to agree with you, up to a point. In general buttons
                > don't appear to be widespread - except of course on shoes :) As for
                > the "waistcoat", mightn't it be some form of Ionar? (This -is- Ireland
                > we're talking about here :) )

                The other place you find buttons is fastening sideways keyhole
                necklines on albs (clerical undergarments). Button neckholes were
                probably fastening non-secular garments too, but we have a lot less of
                them (royal garments seldom count as they may be deliberately mimic
                clerical fashion in token of being divine ruler). The one button I
                have information on has some simularity (more than later buttons) to
                rolling leather to make toggles - it twists binding tape into a ball
                to create a button, and also makes a loop from the binding tape. This
                doesn't seem to be as old as the use of toggles on shoes, but does
                seem to be a mature technology by the late 11th C, with buttons being
                used nowhere else that I've heard of (for a start curved seams had to
                be invented before buttons would be useful to fasten the front of a
                garment). So you could make a case for buttons moving from shoes to
                necklines to arms slowly, but we have so little evidence.

                As for the waistcoat being some form or Ionar - what I've seen so far
                indicates the irish were wearing tunics with brats or other cloaks
                still in the 12th C. The evidence is a bit loose, but a waistcoat of
                any description would be pretty far advanced beyond the technology of
                the time. However if you say the leather is 200-400 years younger, an
                ionar or similar becomes very probable. Mind you I've only glanced
                over 12th C irish costume, and we have so little evidence on the
                matter.

                Mind you the late period ionar is a lovely garment - and one more to
                add to the list of garments that can be made from leather.
                (http://www.reconstructinghistory.com/irish/wear.html)

                Teffania
              • Marc Carlson
                ... Ewww... :) [whatever makes your float boat, but I ve never really liked the clothes shown in those 16th century pictures, but ick...] Marc [Note, this is
                Message 7 of 10 , May 25, 2005
                • 0 Attachment
                  --- In medieval-leather@yahoogroups.com, Tiffany Brown <teffania@g...>
                  wrote:
                  > ...Mind you the late period ionar is a lovely garment - and one more
                  > to add to the list of garments that can be made from leather.
                  > (http://www.reconstructinghistory.com/irish/wear.html)

                  Ewww... :) [whatever makes your float boat, but I've never really
                  liked the clothes shown in those 16th century pictures, but ick...]

                  Marc
                  [Note, this is one of those issues where I always wind up on the wrong
                  side -- I maintain that the artwork that is -generally- used to depict
                  Isish costume was done by people who were working from the assumption
                  that he Irish were stupid, barefoot hicks, so may not be entirely
                  accurate. The memorial statuary from the period shows different sorts
                  of clothing.]
                • Tiffany Brown
                  ... Well, I admit it s lovely until you force me to wear one. Then it looks uncomfortable and cold. But the jacket itself is a lovely piece of tailoring craft
                  Message 8 of 10 , May 25, 2005
                  • 0 Attachment
                    On 5/26/05, Marc Carlson <marccarlson20@...> wrote:

                    > Ewww... :) [whatever makes your float boat, but I've never really
                    > liked the clothes shown in those 16th century pictures, but ick...]

                    Well, I admit it's lovely until you force me to wear one. Then it
                    looks uncomfortable and cold.

                    But the jacket itself is a lovely piece of tailoring craft - all those
                    slits with the leine showing make it look like it's got nothing to
                    keep it in place. This doesn't talk of primitive to me - it's quite
                    sophisticated, and clearly quite impractical*, so probably cermonial
                    or rich layabout clothing.

                    *talking as a woman who wears silly norman sleeves, and finds it about
                    as impractical for real kitchen work (rather than supervision) as I
                    expect a farmer would find these sleeves to plow a field. But I
                    expect there are a variety of men's tasks inbetween which work well
                    with silly garments as i 've found things like weaving unexpectely
                    easy with silly sleeves.

                    > [Note, this is one of those issues where I always wind up on the wrong
                    > side -- I maintain that the artwork that is -generally- used to depict
                    > Isish costume was done by people who were working from the assumption
                    > that he Irish were stupid, barefoot hicks, so may not be entirely
                    > accurate. The memorial statuary from the period shows different sorts
                    > of clothing.]

                    The problem is I read somewher that the 12th C memorial statues of
                    Irish kings shows them wearing 9th C fashions, even though other
                    artwork shows a rather more progressive costume worn by everyone. You
                    have to be as careful with statuary of kings as blantantly biased
                    artists from overseas.

                    I rather suspect that such a costume might have been worn on
                    ceremonial occasions, but surely with some form of pants or hose and
                    shoes. I find it very unlikely that they forgot how to make shoes in
                    the centuries since the 12th C, when the statues are clearly shod.
                    (and the report with the "leather waistcoat" also produced a 12th C
                    irish shoe they say)
                    Of course a 12th C (or even 14th C) depiction wouldn't draw people
                    barefoot as a derogatory statement - most begggars are depicted in
                    shoes with holes, not no shoes. No shoes was reserved for religeous
                    penitance. I wonder how late this extends - could they be making some
                    statement about the irish church instead?

                    Anyway, If you browse around the rest of the reconstructing history
                    site, there are a few other pictures which appear to show pants/hose.
                    It was just a poor choice of mine to link to that particlar page.

                    Tiffany/Teffania
                  • Marc Carlson
                    ... I didn t say it was primitive, just that it might be propoganda. ... That s good, because I wasn t talking about anything to do with kings (nobles, yes,
                    Message 9 of 10 , May 26, 2005
                    • 0 Attachment
                      --- In medieval-leather@yahoogroups.com, Tiffany Brown <teffania@g...>
                      wrote:
                      > ... But the jacket itself is a lovely piece of tailoring craft -
                      > all those slits with the leine showing make it look like it's got
                      > nothing to keep it in place. This doesn't talk of primitive to me
                      > - it's quite sophisticated,..

                      I didn't say it was primitive, just that it might be propoganda.

                      >> accurate. The memorial statuary from the period shows different
                      >> sorts of clothing.]
                      > The problem is I read somewher that the 12th C memorial statues of
                      > Irish kings shows them wearing 9th C fashions, even though other
                      > artwork shows a rather more progressive costume worn by everyone.
                      > You have to be as careful with statuary of kings as blantantly
                      > biased artists from overseas.

                      That's good, because I wasn't talking about anything to do with kings
                      (nobles, yes, but not just kings)

                      Comparing things like hats, shoes, armor, and accessories to their
                      European contemporaries, and the rest of the clothes make it seem
                      pretty clear that there was a difference in irish costuming that has
                      been pretty well overlooked.

                      It's easy to say "oh, don't look at those, they must be wrong because
                      they don't match what we already think" (I know it's easy, I do it
                      often enough myself :) ); but I'm leery about just totally tossing out
                      a section of evidence that does exist from the period, just because it
                      is dissimilar from what people are expecting to see.

                      Do yourself a favor, take a look at Hunt, John, Irish Medieval Figure
                      Sculpture, 1200-1600, a study of Irish tombs with notes on costume and
                      armor. Dublin: Irish University Press, 1974 -- and draw your own
                      conclusions.

                      > I rather suspect that such a costume might have been worn on
                      > ceremonial occasions, but surely with some form of pants or hose
                      > and shoes. I find it very unlikely that they forgot how to make
                      > shoes in the centuries since the 12th C, when the statues are
                      > clearly shod (and the report with the "leather waistcoat" also
                      > produced a 12th C irish shoe they say)

                      Oh, they -had- shoes, and if memory serves, there are even reports of
                      them wearing hosen (although the implication was that Irish hose had
                      no feet)

                      > Of course a 12th C (or even 14th C) depiction wouldn't draw people
                      > barefoot as a derogatory statement - most begggars are depicted in
                      > shoes with holes, not no shoes. No shoes was reserved for
                      > religeous penitance. I wonder how late this extends - could they
                      > be making some statement about the irish church instead?

                      I'm afraid I must disagree with you here. The implication is that
                      they were just too stupid to wear shoes. Admittedly, I tend to be a
                      bit sensitized to seeing slams and digs against the Irish, and Irish
                      sterotyping as a matter of course.

                      > Anyway, If you browse around the rest of the reconstructing history
                      > site, there are a few other pictures which appear to show
                      > pants/hose. It was just a poor choice of mine to link to that
                      > particlar page.

                      Not really, the images are there historically, and there are far more
                      than that particular one.

                      Marc
                    • Michael Sheldon
                      What you have to keep in mind about late medieval Ireland is that it was a sparsely-populated, and relatively poor country. They had their upper-class, but by
                      Message 10 of 10 , May 26, 2005
                      • 0 Attachment
                        What you have to keep in mind about late medieval Ireland is that it was a
                        sparsely-populated, and relatively poor country. They had their upper-class,
                        but by English standards, even they were poor. The lower class were *very*
                        poor by european standards. They were also fairly isolated in that time
                        period, and had definitely developed their own "style".

                        That the "outlandish" styles shown in the drawings existed is not in
                        question, there are surviving examples, though the drawings were certainly
                        exaggerated to a degree. Further evidence of the Irish styles can be found
                        in the sumptuary laws the English passed to try to do away with the Irish
                        styles.

                        I wear Irish garb 16 weekends out of the year, it looks odd to most people,
                        but it's *far* more comfortable than English dress of the same period. The
                        really big sleeves depicted in Irish dress are from a relatively narrow time
                        period (late 15th century) and would only have been worn by the wealthier
                        Irish, since it really is impractical for anyone who must do physical labor.
                        (Something I deal with all the time.) Plus the fact that it was a style
                        wasteful of material, and thus costly. (Which was the whole point.)



                        Michael J. Sheldon
                        aka Aoidhean Ó Toirdhealbhach
                        http://www.gaeliccrossings.com/
                        GuildMaster, Fewterers Guild
                        http://www.fewterersguild.org/
                        Site Manager, Greyhounds of Fairhaven
                        http://www.greyhoundsoffairhaven.org/
                        Bard #385
                        Make a fast friend, adopt a greyhound!
                      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.