Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: Spice Storage

Expand Messages
  • Marc Carlson
    ... I m not finding anything on the Book of Games in the ILL sources. However, based on what I can see on the web, I m assuming that this refers to the
    Message 1 of 11 , May 2, 2005
    • 0 Attachment
      --- In medieval-leather@yahoogroups.com, Ron Charlotte <ronch2@b...>
      wrote:
      > At 06:53 PM 4/29/2005, Carowyn wrote:
      > >If you're up in the State College, PA area, check out the library
      > - they have a facsimile copy of Book 1!
      > Sigh....Every library that has the ruddy thing is at least 12-14
      > hours drive away from me, and I've yet to find one that will trust
      > it to the ILL system. I know that some will do document
      > reproduction, but I haven't yet talked myself into going that route
      > (the copy costs tend to be a little steep).

      I'm not finding anything on "the Book of Games" in the ILL sources.
      However, based on what I can see on the web, I'm assuming that this
      refers to the Alphonsine treatest on chess problems?

      You might take a look at http://games.rengeekcentral.com/, since at
      least some of the pictures show up there.

      Marc
    • Carowyn Silveroak
      Greetings! ... Well, that stinks! If you re ever in our area, give me a heads-up, and we ll make a road trip...like I need an excuse to get Peachy Paterno ice
      Message 2 of 11 , May 2, 2005
      • 0 Attachment
        Greetings!

        > > >If you're up in the State College, PA area, check out the
        > library - they have a facsimile copy of Book 1!

        > > Sigh....Every library that has the ruddy thing is at least 12-14
        > > hours drive away from me, and I've yet to find one that will
        > trust it to the ILL system.

        Well, that stinks! If you're ever in our area, give me a heads-up, and
        we'll make a road trip...like I need an excuse to get Peachy Paterno ice
        cream!!! ;-)

        There are also some books that have bits of some of the pics...let me see
        if I can ask a shire member who studies this time period, she has some
        cool books - and one of them documents the Huelgas tombs, with their
        leather goods (Leonor's shoes, her squirrel-lined sideless surcoat,
        Pedro's (I think) leather-strip-decorated surcoat, a really spiff beaded
        belt I have hopes of reproducing someday......)

        > I'm not finding anything on "the Book of Games" in the ILL sources.
        > However, based on what I can see on the web, I'm assuming that this
        > refers to the Alphonsine treatest on chess problems?

        Ah, bleep - that's my bad! State College has the facsimile of the first
        book of "The Cantigas of Santa Maria", not the Book of Games. The
        rengeek site has all the pics out of the Book of Games. Sorry about the
        confusion, it's my fault! The Cantigas pics have all sorts of stuff in
        the background of all the pics. There's also a cool website that shows
        closeups of some of the pics grouped in categories (I recall looking at
        the minstrels closely) - let me ask on the Medieval Spain list for that
        URL again.

        -Carowyn
      • Marianne Perdomo Machin
        ... Just to be picky... the book s certainly from the 13th century, around 1280s I think. And the convivencia shown in it is certainly relative, some stories
        Message 3 of 11 , May 2, 2005
        • 0 Attachment
          > Carowyn wrote:
          > I think that that's a page from _The Cantigas of Alfonso X_ which are
          > (I think) 12th century Spanish (the height of the Convivencia era, when
          > the Moors and Spaniards were playing relatively nicely together. It's one
          > of those manuscripts I'd love to see more than a few pages from....

          Just to be picky... the book's certainly from the 13th century, around
          1280s I think. And the convivencia shown in it is certainly relative,
          some stories aren't so nice about Jews and Muslims. The Book of Games
          is from the same period.

          Back to spice storage, I'm also interested in the topic and had long
          been thinking of a wooden box with many compartments, or little glass
          jars, or a combination of both. So I decided to check my cookery
          books, with some results but not much detail at all. :(

          "Fast and Feast" by Bridget Ann Henisch (p. 104) says that spices
          "were stored in locked boxes, like one which may be seen beside the
          cook on a misericord in St. George's Chapel, Windsor".
          Also, in "Le Menagier de Paris" (The goodman of Paris):"and they shall
          have a hutch shutting with a key, wherein they shall keep the spices,
          etc." (Translation by Eileen Power, Folio Society 1992, p. 159).

          In this image, to the left, is what coul well be a spice box:
          http://www.godecookery.com/afeast/kitchens/kit007.html


          Terence Scully, in "The Art of Cookery in the Middle ages" (p.86),
          writes that spices were ground before use and kept "over the short
          term in leather pouches that he hung near his hand".
          This would seem like a nice. low-weight, unbreakable solution, but I
          worry that the leather will impart flavor or that modern chemicals in
          it will somehow affect the spices. I'd love to hear any opinions for
          or against.

          If I find anything else, I'll report back, of course. Please do the
          same, I want to do something nice for our spices :)

          Cheers!


          Marianne
        • Ron Charlotte
          ... There is the Chessbook of Alfonso the Wise (Codex Alfonso, the original is at Patromonio National, Madrid) There is also the Book of Games which among
          Message 4 of 11 , May 2, 2005
          • 0 Attachment
            At 11:05 AM 5/2/2005, Marc wrote:
            >I'm not finding anything on "the Book of Games" in the ILL sources.
            >However, based on what I can see on the web, I'm assuming that this
            >refers to the Alphonsine treatest on chess problems?
            >
            >You might take a look at http://games.rengeekcentral.com/, since at
            >least some of the pictures show up there.
            >

            There is the Chessbook of Alfonso the Wise (Codex Alfonso, the original is
            at Patromonio National, Madrid) There is also the Book of Games which
            among things shows images of a number of games and sports, including a form
            of stickball, and a couple of other ball games). I first tripped across
            some of the illustrations in a book titled _Spain: A History in Art_.


            Ron Charlotte -- Gainesville, FL
            ronch2@... OR afn03234@...
          • Ron Charlotte
            ... Your dating is correct. I was guesstimating without taking the time for book excavation. And it was relative. Compared to Reconquista era, or the eras
            Message 5 of 11 , May 2, 2005
            • 0 Attachment
              At 03:12 PM 5/2/2005, you wrote:
              >Just to be picky... the book's certainly from the 13th century, around
              >1280s I think. And the convivencia shown in it is certainly relative,
              >some stories aren't so nice about Jews and Muslims. The Book of Games
              >is from the same period.

              Your dating is correct. I was guesstimating without taking the time for
              book excavation. And it was relative. Compared to Reconquista era, or the
              eras when the North African fanatics took over the Moorish kingdoms, they
              did pretty well by the different ethnic groups.


              >Back to spice storage, I'm also interested in the topic and had long
              >been thinking of a wooden box with many compartments, or little glass
              >jars, or a combination of both. So I decided to check my cookery
              >books, with some results but not much detail at all.

              I have some references in _The Guilds of Florence_ by Edgcumbe Staley (LOC#
              67-12458) that has references in the chapter on the Doctor's and
              Apothecaries Guild to various earthenware jars and bottles being used for
              spices. Wood and leather containers were used for things like sponges,
              brushes and the like. It's possible that there may have been a leather bag
              for carrying the jars around, but that's just speculation on my part (it
              would make sense, precursor of the doctor's bag...)

              Ron Charlotte -- Gainesville, FL
              ronch2@... OR afn03234@...
            • Carowyn Silveroak
              ... *I* didn t write the quote below. I just quoted it. -Carowyn
              Message 6 of 11 , May 2, 2005
              • 0 Attachment
                > Just to be picky... the book's certainly from the 13th century,
                > around
                > 1280s I think. And the convivencia shown in it is certainly
                > relative,
                > some stories aren't so nice about Jews and Muslims. The Book of
                > Games is from the same period.

                *I* didn't write the quote below. I just quoted it.
                -Carowyn

                > > Carowyn wrote:
                > > I think that that's a page from _The Cantigas of Alfonso X_ which
                > are (I think) 12th century Spanish (the height of the Convivencia
                > era, when the Moors and Spaniards were playing relatively nicely
                > together. It's one
                > > of those manuscripts I'd love to see more than a few pages
                > from....
              • Marc Carlson
                ... I believe you, I m just saying that I m not finding either Book of Games or libro de juegos by Alphonso X in my regular ILL sources. I ll see if I
                Message 7 of 11 , May 2, 2005
                • 0 Attachment
                  --- In medieval-leather@yahoogroups.com, Ron Charlotte <ronch2@b...>
                  wrote:
                  > There is the Chessbook of Alfonso the Wise (Codex Alfonso, the
                  > original is at Patromonio National, Madrid) There is also the Book
                  > of Games which among things shows images of a number of games and
                  > sports, including a form of stickball, and a couple of other ball
                  > games). I first tripped across some of the illustrations in a book
                  > titled _Spain: A History in Art_.

                  I believe you, I'm just saying that I'm not finding either "Book of
                  Games" or "libro de juegos" by Alphonso X in my regular ILL sources.
                  I'll see if I can't get down to the stacks to dig through the National
                  Union Catalog tomorrow. I was just hoping that this was just another
                  name for the same text - apparently not.

                  Marc
                Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.