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Re: [mc505] Re: CD-R's not necessarily a reliable long term storage medium

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  • drK
    ... Consider yourself luck! Your one of those one the right side of the 3 sigma curve. Safe keeping is really only one part of the equation. Unfortunately the
    Message 1 of 16 , Sep 30, 2003
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      On Tuesday, September 30, 2003, at 02:05 PM, binaryzero1 wrote:

      > i still got a 40 MB hd prolly like 14 years old ? and it still
      > works :) as long as u keep it on a safe place... faulty harddrives
      > usualy die fast..and if not they can last very long.. And besides
      > that there are companies specialized in recovering data from faulty
      > harddrives...You have more chance getting data recovered from a
      > faulty HD than a CD-R unless u were really a retard and handled ur
      > hardisk without thinking like holding a magnetic on it or opened it
      > and scratched the surfaces etc.
      >

      Consider yourself luck! Your one of those one the right side of the 3
      sigma curve. Safe keeping is really only one part of the equation.
      Unfortunately the lubricants used in the spindle motor degrade, as do
      seals, etc. Some last for a long time, others do not. It is the
      *possibility* of failure that makes it a poor choice. Not just my
      opinion but it is a widely held view.

      I know there are some very special ways of recovering data from an HDD
      if your willing to spend the $$$ but those are not fool proof either.
      Can't say which is more successful, HDD recovery or CDR. CDR data
      format is much more redundant with higher levels of error correcting.
      Neither though will survive a deep scoring of the surface, which BTW is
      the way a head crash ruins a HDD.

      drK

      www.delora.com/music
      drk.iuma.com
    • Holohedron
      huh-huh... he said deep scoring ... From: drK To: Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2003 8:03 PM Subject: Re: [mc505]
      Message 2 of 16 , Oct 1, 2003
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        huh-huh... he said "deep scoring"


        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "drK" <drk@...>
        To: <mc505@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2003 8:03 PM
        Subject: Re: [mc505] Re: CD-R's not necessarily a reliable long term storage
        medium


        >
        > On Tuesday, September 30, 2003, at 02:05 PM, binaryzero1 wrote:
        >
        > > i still got a 40 MB hd prolly like 14 years old ? and it still
        > > works :) as long as u keep it on a safe place... faulty harddrives
        > > usualy die fast..and if not they can last very long.. And besides
        > > that there are companies specialized in recovering data from faulty
        > > harddrives...You have more chance getting data recovered from a
        > > faulty HD than a CD-R unless u were really a retard and handled ur
        > > hardisk without thinking like holding a magnetic on it or opened it
        > > and scratched the surfaces etc.
        > >
        >
        > Consider yourself luck! Your one of those one the right side of the 3
        > sigma curve. Safe keeping is really only one part of the equation.
        > Unfortunately the lubricants used in the spindle motor degrade, as do
        > seals, etc. Some last for a long time, others do not. It is the
        > *possibility* of failure that makes it a poor choice. Not just my
        > opinion but it is a widely held view.
        >
        > I know there are some very special ways of recovering data from an HDD
        > if your willing to spend the $$$ but those are not fool proof either.
        > Can't say which is more successful, HDD recovery or CDR. CDR data
        > format is much more redundant with higher levels of error correcting.
        > Neither though will survive a deep scoring of the surface, which BTW is
        > the way a head crash ruins a HDD.
        >
        > drK
        >
        > www.delora.com/music
        > drk.iuma.com
        >
        >
        >
        > ___________________________________
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        >
        >
      • Dan
        drk - just wondering how you rate tape back up? At the moment I ve got 4x 60Gb hard drives sitting in airtight containers in air conditioned storage; in a
        Message 3 of 16 , Oct 2, 2003
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          drk - just wondering how you rate tape back up?

          At the moment I've got 4x 60Gb hard drives sitting in airtight
          containers in air conditioned storage; in a fireproof safe! But if
          the spindle lube dries out then it's all pretty pointless; but [touch
          wood] I've had no problems with any of them over the 3 years they've
          been stored. At the moment I'm dumping everything onto 5Gb DVD's and
          keeping them in the same condition; but I read somewhere that DVD's
          only have a similar shelf life to CDRs (2-10 years).

          Vinyl seems the most reliable... Perhaps I should store all the data
          Spectrum style as an audible signal!

          Any other alternatives?

          Dan
        • drK
          Hey Dan! Tape has a well known problem with oxide flaking and the layers adhering to each other if it is stored and not used for a long period of time (many
          Message 4 of 16 , Oct 2, 2003
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            Hey Dan!

            Tape has a well known problem with oxide flaking and the layers
            adhering to each other if it is stored and not used for a long period
            of time (many heartaches when record company vaults were raided back
            when CDs first became the new standard and they tried to bring old
            releases into CD format). Data tape is (hopefully) specially formulated
            to minimize this but there is not any real longevity data to validate
            that. So I would right now classify DAT backups as only slightly more
            robust than CDR but would be leary of it as a long term solution unless
            I also kept a known working drive also in a safe place.

            Frankly I don't believe there is any perfect backup medium these days,
            though some feel that MO optical media is pretty long-term stable
            (relatively speaking). Since all media can fail (even if slight) the
            best approach is to:

            1. Make redundant copies and store them in a number of different
            locations

            2. Periodically refresh the backups by loading the data off the media,
            reading it (most long-term backup failures will occure do to
            incompatible hardware or software at a future time), and recreating the
            backup using the best methods of that time.

            I currently favor using hard drives for what I call "quick backups" and
            believe that they are quite good if used much the way data tapes were
            used (a rotating backup scheme that has three drives in use at all
            times: one being backed-up, one offsite in storage, and the latest
            backup copy. Rotate roles once a week.) I use CDR and DVD-R for data
            backup but I am firmly paranoid about those so I have instigated an
            annual review of all data and regenerating it. Finally I keep a copy
            also on my server (which also needs periodic review).

            Some people recommend online storage using a reputable firm that
            specializes in data backup. Personally I'm skeptical about it but
            others feel differently.

            drK


            On Thursday, October 2, 2003, at 03:19 AM, Dan wrote:

            > drk - just wondering how you rate tape back up?
            >
            > At the moment I've got 4x 60Gb hard drives sitting in airtight
            > containers in air conditioned storage; in a fireproof safe! But if
            > the spindle lube dries out then it's all pretty pointless; but [touch
            > wood] I've had no problems with any of them over the 3 years they've
            > been stored. At the moment I'm dumping everything onto 5Gb DVD's and
            > keeping them in the same condition; but I read somewhere that DVD's
            > only have a similar shelf life to CDRs (2-10 years).
            >
            > Vinyl seems the most reliable... Perhaps I should store all the data
            > Spectrum style as an audible signal!
            >
            > Any other alternatives?
            >
            > Dan
          • greg spicer
            thought id change the subject slightly in that ive recently read an article about cd-r mastering (i may have got the article from here- i have a habit of going
            Message 5 of 16 , Oct 2, 2003
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              thought id change the subject slightly in that ive recently read an
              article about cd-r mastering (i may have got the article from here- i
              have a habit of going full circle!)

              but it makes pretty interesting reading:

              Different CDRs sound different. Even within the same brand. Media
              errors translate into jitter. Their error rates vary, even with the
              kind of CD burner used. I've listened to Kodak's gold "Writeable"
              cdrs, their gold "Audio" cdrs, their gold "Recordable" cdrs, and each
              sounds different.

              Even Maxell 700 mb silver CDs sound different from the Maxell Pro or
              Maxell "Music" CDRs (and those black ones sound harsh!!!). TDK's
              sound different from Memorex, Mitsui, Verbatim, Sony... and the
              bargain-basement cheapies are lucky if they even play! (If this
              concept pushes your computer buttons, be sure to read this whole
              article.)



              My favorites: Maxell 80 Minute Pro (blue) for solid robust low end,
              detail and clean immediacy • Maxell Music 80 minute gold for a
              balanced hight-to-mid-to-bottom and wide sparkle • Fuji 80 Minute
              Audio for a wetter sound (smoothes out the edges). • Memorex Music 80
              minutes is very nice • Taiyo Yuden 700 MB are close, the Mitsui and
              BASF are in there, Sony could be better... experiment and see what
              you prefer!


              Important: If you're cutting CDs on a home computer, don't use the
              gold or black ink-on-the-bottm CDRs - use the green ink ones because
              gold ink CDRs require a more powerful laser than many CD burners
              have. I find the 700mb sound better than 650 mb, and there may be
              better quality if the CDR manufacturer claims it handles higher burn
              speeds.... but....

              Burning CDRs at 2X sounds different than 1X. I invited a professional
              engineer and a stereophile guy to listen to the same album on two
              different cdrs... one cut at 1X one at 2X. The engineer preferred the
              1X, and thought the CDRs had different mixes on them. The stereophile
              guy simply felt the sound on the 1X was sweeter and wider. Burning
              CDRs at high speed (like 2X, 4X, etc.) adds hardness and sterility to
              the highs and mid-highs because the data isn't transferring as
              smoothly. (One client of mine would have been better off using his
              12X-copy "master" as a Frisbee... it had major artefacts that were
              expensive to remove). If this Frye's your circuits, click on the
              links that follow later in this article...

              Make sure if your master mix is going onto a CDR, burn it at 1X (or
              the slowest speed available). The slower the burn speed, the less
              jitter.

              Jitter can be induced when pressing plants cut their glass master
              higher than 1X. On my CDR masters, I make sure that I include the
              instructions, "Cut glass at 1X ONLY." Even though some pressing
              plants will say that cutting a glass master at 2X creates fewer
              errors (and saves them valuable glass-mastering time), I insist on
              1X, just as all the major mastering guys do. Check out Roger Nichols'
              article " CDs give me the Jitters!" where he gives you the nitty-
              grity about the Steely Dan album glass master experience.

              CD plants often use the reasoning that 2x speed makes less errors.
              It's an idea that is rejected daily by top mastering engineers. Bob
              Katz states, "We believe that irregular pit depth or irregularity of
              spacing of the pits (due to the quality of clocking at different
              speeds) causes the servo mechanism in the CD player to work harder
              and pass this onto the power supply for the D/A converter (in a cheap
              player)."

              One studio owner asked me why a CD copied to his hard drive and then
              just burnt to CDR sounded so different. Aside from burning speed
              issues, I got some input from a computer programmer that could shed
              some light: Software designers are sometimes required to program for
              efficiency instead of precision. This means in order to make a
              program run fast at a competitive price, they end up making it handle
              larger blocks of data at once, compromising the possible resolution
              of the sound. A small error within a block gets corrected, and thus
              the whole block is changed.

              >>>>>
              Full Article:

              http://www.johnvestman.com/digital_myth.htm
              >>>>>>>>

              Ill defintily be bearing this in mind next time i buy cd-rs and
              although i always burn at 2x i will start trying 1x...

              Greg
            • erik_magrini@Baxter.com
              I had to change the batteries in my distortion pedal last week too, the Duracells were much thinner sounding than the Energizers.... rEalm thought id change
              Message 6 of 16 , Oct 2, 2003
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                I had to change the batteries in my distortion pedal last week too, the Duracells were much thinner sounding than the Energizers....

                rEalm




                thought id change the subject slightly in that ive recently read an
                article about cd-r mastering (i may have got the article from here- i
                have a habit of going full circle!)

                I've listened to Kodak's gold "Writeable"
                cdrs, their gold "Audio" cdrs, their gold "Recordable" cdrs, and each
                sounds different.

                Even Maxell 700 mb silver CDs sound different from the Maxell Pro or
                Maxell "Music" CDRs (and those black ones sound harsh!!!). TDK's
                sound different from Memorex, Mitsui, Verbatim, Sony... and the
                bargain-basement cheapies are lucky if they even play! (If this
                concept pushes your computer buttons, be sure to read this whole
                article.)


                Burning CDRs at 2X sounds different than 1X.

                CD plants often use the reasoning that 2x speed makes less errors.


              • Greg Spicer
                Interesting, Ive also found different psu s can make efx units more or less noisy..... greg Greg Spicer CRMS Co-ordinator Business Link Wessex - The
                Message 7 of 16 , Oct 2, 2003
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                  Interesting, Ive also found different psu's can make efx units more or
                  less noisy.....

                  greg

                  Greg Spicer
                  CRMS Co-ordinator

                  Business Link Wessex - The Independent Source of Business Advice

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