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OT: An Iraqi deserter's story

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  • drsheltagus@aol.com
    Just to give you a bit of insight as to why this war needs to be fought.. . I also work with an Ex-Irani soldier at a pizza parlor. He s glad to be in America
    Message 1 of 26 , Apr 1, 2003
      Just to give you a bit of insight as to why this war needs to be fought.. . I also work with an Ex-Irani soldier at a pizza parlor.  He's glad to be in America and has told me of the many horrible things that his people have suffered at the hands of Saddam Hussein.  He himself has said that anyone in the world who protests this war obviously lives a comfortable suburban life and should be sent to Iraq to live under Saddam's cruel regime for a month. 


      -------------------------------------
      KALAK, Iraq (March 31) - The soldier covered his face and wept.

      It was a deep, sudden sobbing he couldn't control. His shoulders heaved. Tears wet the frayed cuffs of his green Iraqi army sweater.

      He cried because he was alive. He cried because his family may think he's dead. He cried for his country. He cried because - for him - the war was over.

      ''I'm so sorry. Excuse me. I just can't stop,'' wept the soldier who fled Saddam Hussein's army and was taken Monday into the hands of U.S.-allied Iraqi Kurdish fighters. ''Could this terrible time be over soon? Please, tell me.''

      The soldier - part of a front-line unit - was among at least 18 Iraqi deserters who staggered into the Kurdish town of Kalak as U.S. warplanes stepped up airstrikes on Iraqi positions near the Kurds' autonomous region. He agreed to share his story, but with conditions: no details about him or his military service could be revealed. Call him Ali.

      He feared Saddam loyalists could retaliate against his family. They may have already, he said.

      ''The army knows I ran away. They could come and take revenge,'' he said in the central police barracks in Kalak, about 20 miles northwest of the Kurdish administrative center Irbil. ''My only hope is that I'm not alone. There are so many deserters and those who want to run. They cannot attack all these families with a war going on.''

      War for this foot soldier was one of desperation. ''We only prayed we'd stay alive long enough to get a chance to escape,'' Ali said through an interpreter.

      His unit - about 30 men - slept in muddy burrows on a hillside, he said. Breakfast was tea and crusty bread. At midday: rice and a single cucumber to share between two soldiers. There was no dinner.

      His commanders described the war as an American grab for Iraqi oil. He couldn't contradict them - there were no radios or chances to call home. Occasionally they would receive copies of the Iraqi military newspaper. One issue featured a poem with the lines: ''The enemy will tire, and Saddam will remain.''

      ''We knew nothing. We were told only that America was trying to take over Iraq,'' Ali said. ''But we are not so stupid. We know how Saddam rules the country. We know in our hearts we'd be better off without him.''

      Ali was drafted just after the 1991 Gulf War. He remained in the military because his family depended on the small military pay. Anyway, there were few choices for ex-soldiers whose formal education ended in the fourth grade. There were no jobs at home. Ali claimed he would never seek the favors of Saddam's ruling Baath party.

      ''I don't see Saddam as a hero anymore,'' Ali said.

      U.S. bombs killed at least five members of his unit. About the same number were wounded, he said. ''There is no medical help,'' he added. ''They are left to die.''

      ''The spirit of the soldiers is very low,'' he said. ''We were not really mad at the Americans. We just want to save our lives.''

      He and four other soldiers decided to run. But they had to pick their moment. Their unit and most others include Baathist agents given orders to execute any deserters, he said.

      ''But we decided it was either die from an American bomb or be killed by our own people,'' he said. ''It was better to run and take our chances.''

      On Wednesday evening, in a torrential rainstorm, they made their break. They raced over the treeless pastures into Kurdish territory. The next morning, they asked a goat herder to direct them to Kalak. Then they panicked.

      ''We thought he would hand us over to the Iraqi army for some reward,'' Ali said.

      They arrived at the edge of Kalak on Friday. They could see the Iraqi positions on the ridge just across the Great Zab River, running high and dirt brown after the downpours. And they waited.

      They worried Kurdish militiamen would open fire if they simply walked into town. Until dawn Monday, they survived on wild greens and weighed their choices. They finally decided to fashion a surrender flag from an undershirt.

      A half hour later, they were gulping hot tea and smoking cigarettes. Kurdish officials hunted for new clothes. Ali still wore what passed for a uniform: green camouflage pants, boots, a military sweater, a wool turban and a ragged nylon jacket dotted with cigarette burns.

      Kurdish authorities decline to say precisely how many Iraqi military deserters have crossed over. Modest estimates range from several hundred to nearly 500. But they clearly expect more. Kurds plan a camp for at least 6,000 deserters and possible Iraqi POWs.

      Massoud Barzani, leader of the Kurdish Democratic Party whose territory includes Kalak, said ''no comment'' when asked if U.S. officials in the Kurdish zone would question deserters.

      ''I can say now what I always felt: Saddam led to this war,'' Ali said. ''We don't want to fight America. We don't want to fight for Saddam. We just want an end to all this.''

      A top Kurdish official, Hoshiar Zebari, predicted a collision course for two powerful forces in Iraq: the ordinary troops and the defenders of the regime.

      ''It's highly possible there could be confrontations between the regular army and the paramilitary who are terrorizing the people,'' Zebari told reporters.

      Ali agreed. No one dares to speak out against Saddam while Baath party forces still have footholds, he said.

      ''The people know that any uprising against Saddam now would mean terrible things to them and their family. They force them to chant 'Down with America,' but not everyone means it. Saddam's people are afraid for the future.''

      That's when he started to cry. Moments later came the thud of a U.S. bomb hitting the ridge just across the river.

      AP-NY-03-31-03 1953EST

      Copyright 2003 The Associated Press. The information contained in the AP news report may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or otherwise distributed without the prior written authority of The Associated Press.  All active hyperlinks have been inserted by AOL.

    • eporollete
      ... fought.. ... suburban life ... a month. And anyone in this world who has led other people to war obviously lives a much more comfortable supermillionaire
      Message 2 of 26 , Apr 1, 2003
        --- In mc505@yahoogroups.com, drsheltagus@a... wrote:
        > Just to give you a bit of insight as to why this war needs to be
        fought..
        > He himself has said that anyone in
        > the world who protests this war obviously lives a comfortable
        suburban life
        > and should be sent to Iraq to live under Saddam's cruel regime for
        a month.

        And anyone in this world who has led other people to war obviously
        lives a much more comfortable supermillionaire life, and some of them
        (Bush and Aznar, for example) have made all things possible in the
        past, including fraud and lies, to avoid any contact with military
        life whatsoever. Cowards! Both should be sent together with Blair and
        Saddam to a desert island as far as possible from the rest of
        humanity to solve their problems. Maybe some bottles of bourbon and a
        psychiatrist would be of help. And no Bibles or Korans, please!

        On a side note, would any British comment on this:

        > > >From Sky News....
        > >
        > > "Umm Qasr is a city similar to Southampton," UK defence minister
        Geoff
        >Hoon
        > > said in the Commons yesterday. "He's either never been to
        Southampton,
        > > or he's never been to Umm Qasr" says a British squaddie
        patrolling Umm
        >Qasr.
        > > Another soldier added: "There's no beer, no prostitutes and
        people are
        > > shooting at us.
        > > It's more like Portsmouth".
        > >


        Peace,

        Epo
      • Max C. Parmenter
        Thats Greg s neck of the woods so I ve no doubt he ll have a comment or two!!!!! ... From: eporollete [mailto:epo@rollete.com] Sent: 01 April 2003 12:51 To:
        Message 3 of 26 , Apr 1, 2003
          Message
          Thats Greg's neck of the woods so I've no doubt he'll have a comment or two!!!!!
          -----Original Message-----
          From: eporollete [mailto:epo@...]
          Sent: 01 April 2003 12:51
          To: mc505@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [mc505] Re: OT: An Iraqi deserter's story

          --- In mc505@yahoogroups.com, drsheltagus@a... wrote:
          > Just to give you a bit of insight as to why this war needs to be
          fought..
          > He himself has said that anyone in
          > the world who protests this war obviously lives a comfortable
          suburban life
          > and should be sent to Iraq to live under Saddam's cruel regime for
          a month. 

          And anyone in this world who has led other people to war obviously
          lives a much more comfortable supermillionaire life, and some of them
          (Bush and Aznar, for example) have made all things possible in the
          past, including fraud and lies, to avoid any contact with military
          life whatsoever. Cowards! Both should be sent together with Blair and
          Saddam to a desert island as far as possible from the rest of
          humanity to solve their problems. Maybe some bottles of bourbon and a
          psychiatrist would be of help. And no Bibles or Korans, please!

          On a side note, would any British comment on this:

          > > >From Sky News....
          > >
          > > "Umm Qasr is a city similar to Southampton," UK defence minister
          Geoff
          >Hoon
          > > said in the Commons yesterday. "He's either never been to
          Southampton,
          > > or he's never been to Umm Qasr" says a British squaddie
          patrolling Umm
          >Qasr.
          > > Another soldier added: "There's no beer, no prostitutes and
          people are
          > > shooting at us.
          > > It's more like Portsmouth".
          > >


          Peace,

          Epo



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        • greg spicer
          well being from portsmouth (pompey) i must say it cracked me up- i also hate southampton (football) but studied there so know the score pompey is much rougher,
          Message 4 of 26 , Apr 1, 2003
            well being from portsmouth (pompey) i must say it cracked me up- i
            also hate southampton (football) but studied there so know the score

            pompey is much rougher, there is a big rift between pompey and
            scumhampton and has been for years so this comment was particularly
            resonant around here- i laughed my arse off- thought it was well
            funny-

            pompey- sailor boys
            scumhampton- yachty yahoo's

            Greg


            > > >
            > > > "Umm Qasr is a city similar to Southampton," UK defence
            minister
            > Geoff
            > >Hoon
            > > > said in the Commons yesterday. "He's either never been to
            > Southampton,
            > > > or he's never been to Umm Qasr" says a British squaddie
            > patrolling Umm
            > >Qasr.
            > > > Another soldier added: "There's no beer, no prostitutes and
            > people are
            > > > shooting at us.
            > > > It's more like Portsmouth".
            > > >
            >
            >
            > Peace,
            >
            > Epo
          • bob_dunham
            ... fought.. . I ... ________________________ Tell your Iranian friend that the US will be attacking Iran next, he should be happy. Did you know that only one
            Message 5 of 26 , Apr 1, 2003
              --- In mc505@yahoogroups.com, drsheltagus@a... wrote:
              > Just to give you a bit of insight as to why this war needs to be
              fought.. . I
              > also work with an Ex-Irani soldier at a pizza parlor.
              ________________________
              Tell your Iranian friend that the US will be attacking Iran next, he
              should be happy. Did you know that only one of our 600+ congressmen
              has a son or daughter in the military? Do you really think getting
              rid of SH will change much of anything in the long run? Is Afganistan
              a beautiful place to live now? Do some research b4 posting more pro
              death rhetoric please........ Check this out:
              Here is a history quiz recently aired by ABC.

              The test consists of one multiple-choice question.

              Here's a list of the countries that the U.S. has bombed since the
              endof World War II, compiled by historian William Blum:

              China 1945-46
              Korea 1950-53
              China 1950-53
              Guatemala 1954
              Indonesia 1958
              Cuba 1959-60
              Guatemala 1960
              Congo 1964
              Peru 1965
              Laos 1964-73
              Vietnam 1961-73
              Cambodia 1969-70
              Guatemala 1967-69
              Grenada 1983
              Libya 1986
              El Salvador 1980s
              Nicaragua 1980s
              Panama 1989
              Iraq 1991-99
              Sudan 1998
              Afghanistan 1998
              Yugoslavia 1999
              Afghanistan 2001-

              And now for the test:

              In how many of these instances did a democratic government,
              respectful of human rights, occur as a direct result?

              Choose one of the following:
              (a) 0
              (b) zero
              (c) none
              (d) not a one
              (e) a whole number between -1 and +1
            • erik_magrini@Baxter.com
              (f) I don t care and only want to talk about music and art on this list. rEalm Choose one of the following: (a) 0 (b) zero (c) none (d) not a one (e) a whole
              Message 6 of 26 , Apr 1, 2003

                (f)  I don't care and only want to talk about music and art on this list.

                rEalm



                Choose one of the following:
                (a) 0
                (b) zero
                (c) none
                (d) not a one
                (e) a whole number between -1 and +1

              • Dj Gorgeous
                while you at it (telling Iran that they will be bombed next if they keep in assisting it s nemesis ) you should let Sirya, Tunisia, Algeria, Libya and North
                Message 7 of 26 , Apr 1, 2003

                  while you at it (telling Iran that they will be bombed next if they keep in assisting it's "nemesis") you should let Sirya, Tunisia, Algeria, Libya and North Korea as well. I wonder how many innocent civilians have died on those "diplomatic/for the betterment of the human kind/ freedom bombings".

                   bob_dunham <bob_dunham@...> wrote:

                  --- In mc505@yahoogroups.com, drsheltagus@a... wrote:
                  > Just to give you a bit of insight as to why this war needs to be
                  fought.. . I
                  > also work with an Ex-Irani soldier at a pizza parlor. 
                  ________________________
                  Tell your Iranian friend that the US will be attacking Iran next, he
                  should be happy.  Did you know that only one of our 600+ congressmen
                  has a son or daughter in the military?  Do you really think getting
                  rid of SH will change much of anything in the long run? Is Afganistan
                  a beautiful place to live now?  Do some research b4 posting more pro
                  death rhetoric please........  Check this out:
                  Here is a history quiz recently aired by ABC.
                   
                  The test consists of one multiple-choice question.
                   
                  Here's a list of the countries that the U.S. has bombed since the
                  endof World War II, compiled by historian William Blum:
                   
                  China 1945-46
                  Korea 1950-53
                  China 1950-53
                  Guatemala 1954
                  Indonesia 1958
                  Cuba 1959-60
                  Guatemala 1960
                  Congo 1964
                  Peru 1965
                  Laos 1964-73
                  Vietnam 1961-73
                  Cambodia 1969-70
                  Guatemala 1967-69
                  Grenada 1983
                  Libya 1986
                  El Salvador 1980s
                  Nicaragua 1980s
                  Panama 1989
                  Iraq 1991-99
                  Sudan 1998
                  Afghanistan 1998
                  Yugoslavia 1999
                  Afghanistan 2001-
                   
                  And now for the test:
                   
                  In how many of these instances did a democratic government,
                  respectful of human rights, occur as a direct result?
                   
                  Choose one of the following:
                  (a) 0
                  (b) zero
                  (c) none
                  (d) not a one
                  (e) a whole number between -1 and +1




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                • drsheltagus@aol.com
                  In a message dated 4/1/2003 11:19:38 AM Central Standard Time, ... I will tell him. And i m sure he ll retell me the story of how he watched his parents die
                  Message 8 of 26 , Apr 1, 2003
                    In a message dated 4/1/2003 11:19:38 AM Central Standard Time, bob_dunham@... writes:


                    Tell your Iranian friend that the US will be attacking Iran next, he
                    should be happy.  Did you know that only one of our 600+ congressmen
                    has a son or daughter in the military?  Do you really think getting
                    rid of SH will change much of anything in the long run? Is Afganistan
                    a beautiful place to live now?  Do some research b4 posting more pro
                    death rhetoric please........  Check this out:
                    Here is a history quiz recently aired by ABC.


                    I will tell him.  And i'm sure he'll retell me the story of how he watched his parents die from being gassed by saddam's soldiers.  Someone was kind enough to get them back to their homes just in time for him to watch them die.  I'm not posting PRO DEATH RHETORIC you pompous faggot.  You're obviously one of those bitchmade anti war doo gooders!  War is NEVER good, but sometimes it's necessary.  World war 2 had many more casualties than this one can ever expect to have, yet people supported their troops because they knew it had to be done.  The problem now is that now there is more media coverage and everyone can see how ugly war truly is.  All of a sudden they get queasy eh? FREEDOM IS NEVER PAID FOR.  IT IS A LEASE AND MUST BE PAID ON FROM TIME TO TIME! I for one appreciate my right to be able to say these things to you without someone executing my family.  I guess you don't.  That's your choice. The French would be speaking German now if we had allowed Hitler's reich to continue to flourish.  I never spoke or cried out for more death.  Maybe YOU should read my post a bit more before you start labeling me, you BITCH.

                    JENOVA
                  • Dj Gorgeous
                    I will ask you to refrain yourself from insulting people with such adjectives as faggot or any other slur use by bigots. A lot of us happen to be minorities,
                    Message 9 of 26 , Apr 1, 2003

                      I will ask you to refrain yourself from insulting people with such adjectives as "faggot" or any other slur use by bigots. A lot of us happen to be minorities, and in my case as being a Mexican i hear my fair share of racial insults in the common place that discomfort me. I do not know if there are any gay members in this group (not is any of my business) but I will anticipate that you have insulted them by your unawareness, intolerance of other points of view � different from yours and by using their sexual preference in a very negative connotation. If you don't agree with a point of view of someone I will ask you to confront the topic or issue directly without the use of such harmful mocks and scoffs. It will show that you are more urbane and that you have a bit of refinement, but perhaps you don't

                       

                      DjG

                       drsheltagus@... wrote:

                      In a message dated 4/1/2003 11:19:38 AM Central Standard Time, bob_dunham@... writes:


                      Tell your Iranian friend that the US will be attacking Iran next, he
                      should be happy.  Did you know that only one of our 600+ congressmen
                      has a son or daughter in the military?  Do you really think getting
                      rid of SH will change much of anything in the long run? Is Afganistan
                      a beautiful place to live now?  Do some research b4 posting more pro
                      death rhetoric please........  Check this out:
                      Here is a history quiz recently aired by ABC.


                      I will tell him.  And i'm sure he'll retell me the story of how he watched his parents die from being gassed by saddam's soldiers.  Someone was kind enough to get them back to their homes just in time for him to watch them die.  I'm not posting PRO DEATH RHETORIC you pompous faggot.  You're obviously one of those bitchmade anti war doo gooders!  War is NEVER good, but sometimes it's necessary.  World war 2 had many more casualties than this one can ever expect to have, yet people supported their troops because they knew it had to be done.  The problem now is that now there is more media coverage and everyone can see how ugly war truly is.  All of a sudden they get queasy eh? FREEDOM IS NEVER PAID FOR.  IT IS A LEASE AND MUST BE PAID ON FROM TIME TO TIME! I for one appreciate my right to be able to say these things to you without someone executing my family.  I guess you don't.  That's your choice. The French would be speaking German now if we had allowed Hitler's reich to continue to flourish.  I never spoke or cried out for more death.  Maybe YOU should read my post a bit more before you start labeling me, you BITCH.

                      JENOVA


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                    • ras
                      Jenova - the story you posted of the Iraqi deserter that approves of the war is pretty lame rubbish. I hate to say it but your post below also gives me the
                      Message 10 of 26 , Apr 1, 2003
                        Jenova - the story you posted of the Iraqi deserter that approves of
                        the war is pretty lame rubbish.

                        I hate to say it but your post below also gives me the impression
                        that you are one of many americans who are lapping up the pro war
                        propaganda that you are being soon fed by your ridiculously pathetic
                        non independent news services.

                        Grow up and think for yourself.

                        --- In mc505@yahoogroups.com, drsheltagus@a... wrote:
                        > In a message dated 4/1/2003 11:19:38 AM Central Standard Time,
                        > bob_dunham@h... writes:
                        >
                        >
                        > > Tell your Iranian friend that the US will be attacking Iran next,
                        he
                        > > should be happy. Did you know that only one of our 600+
                        congressmen
                        > > has a son or daughter in the military? Do you really think
                        getting
                        > > rid of SH will change much of anything in the long run? Is
                        Afganistan
                        > > a beautiful place to live now? Do some research b4 posting more
                        pro
                        > > death rhetoric please........ Check this out:
                        > > Here is a history quiz recently aired by ABC.
                        > >
                        >
                        > I will tell him. And i'm sure he'll retell me the story of how he
                        watched
                        > his parents die from being gassed by saddam's soldiers. Someone
                        was kind
                        > enough to get them back to their homes just in time for him to
                        watch them
                        > die. I'm not posting PRO DEATH RHETORIC you pompous faggot.
                        You're
                        > obviously one of those bitchmade anti war doo gooders! War is
                        NEVER good,
                        > but sometimes it's necessary. World war 2 had many more casualties
                        than this
                        > one can ever expect to have, yet people supported their troops
                        because they
                        > knew it had to be done. The problem now is that now there is more
                        media
                        > coverage and everyone can see how ugly war truly is. All of a
                        sudden they
                        > get queasy eh? FREEDOM IS NEVER PAID FOR. IT IS A LEASE AND MUST
                        BE PAID ON
                        > FROM TIME TO TIME! I for one appreciate my right to be able to say
                        these
                        > things to you without someone executing my family. I guess you
                        don't.
                        > That's your choice. The French would be speaking German now if we
                        had allowed
                        > Hitler's reich to continue to flourish. I never spoke or cried out
                        for more
                        > death. Maybe YOU should read my post a bit more before you start
                        labeling
                        > me, you BITCH.
                        >
                        > JENOVA
                      • Dj Gorgeous
                        must of you perhaps have seen the commercial in VH1 that has the remix of Fisherpoon s Emerge vs Les Rythmes Digitales (hey you) whats that sound. Does anyone
                        Message 11 of 26 , Apr 1, 2003

                          must of you perhaps have seen the commercial in VH1 that has the remix of Fisherpoon's Emerge vs Les Rythmes Digitales (hey you) whats that sound. Does anyone know where can i get it...i looked all over the place and i can't find it. I even called some NY stores to no avail. If you know the record co. or any other info please let me know.

                          DjG 



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                        • ahorton
                          ... Fisherpoon s Emerge vs Les Rythmes Digitales (hey you) whats that sound. Does anyone know where can i get it...i looked all over the place and i can t find
                          Message 12 of 26 , Apr 1, 2003
                            >must of you perhaps have seen the commercial in VH1 that has the remix of
                            Fisherpoon's Emerge vs Les Rythmes Digitales (hey you) whats that sound. Does
                            anyone know where can i get it...i looked all over the place and i can't find
                            it. I even called some NY stores to no avail. If you know the record co. or
                            any other info please let me know.


                            Dj G- Thanks first for the Mellotron link. As for the Fischerspooner vs. LRD
                            remix, could it be one of Soulwax's many mash-ups? They've done SO many tracks
                            under the names "Soulwax" and "2 many DJ's", where they put two songs
                            together. That may be a good starting point.

                            andrew
                          • drsheltagus@aol.com
                            Grow up and think for myself? For your information I work too damned much to even WATCH the news. These ARE my views and to say that I need to grow up
                            Message 13 of 26 , Apr 1, 2003
                              Grow up and think for myself? For your information I work too damned much to
                              even WATCH the news. These ARE my views and to say that I need to 'grow up'
                              because I do not think the way you do shows that you've a little growing up
                              to do yourself.

                              JenovA
                            • Ravi Ivan Sharma
                              since when is zero a whole number? ... From: bob_dunham To: mc505@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 12:17 PM Subject: [mc505] Re: OT: An Iraqi
                              Message 14 of 26 , Apr 1, 2003
                                since when is zero a whole number?
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 12:17 PM
                                Subject: [mc505] Re: OT: An Iraqi deserter's story - BS

                                --- In mc505@yahoogroups.com, drsheltagus@a... wrote:
                                > Just to give you a bit of insight as to why this war needs to be
                                fought.. . I
                                > also work with an Ex-Irani soldier at a pizza parlor. 
                                ________________________
                                Tell your Iranian friend that the US will be attacking Iran next, he
                                should be happy.  Did you know that only one of our 600+ congressmen
                                has a son or daughter in the military?  Do you really think getting
                                rid of SH will change much of anything in the long run? Is Afganistan
                                a beautiful place to live now?  Do some research b4 posting more pro
                                death rhetoric please........  Check this out:
                                Here is a history quiz recently aired by ABC.
                                 
                                The test consists of one multiple-choice question.
                                 
                                Here's a list of the countries that the U.S. has bombed since the
                                endof World War II, compiled by historian William Blum:
                                 
                                China 1945-46
                                Korea 1950-53
                                China 1950-53
                                Guatemala 1954
                                Indonesia 1958
                                Cuba 1959-60
                                Guatemala 1960
                                Congo 1964
                                Peru 1965
                                Laos 1964-73
                                Vietnam 1961-73
                                Cambodia 1969-70
                                Guatemala 1967-69
                                Grenada 1983
                                Libya 1986
                                El Salvador 1980s
                                Nicaragua 1980s
                                Panama 1989
                                Iraq 1991-99
                                Sudan 1998
                                Afghanistan 1998
                                Yugoslavia 1999
                                Afghanistan 2001-
                                 
                                And now for the test:
                                 
                                In how many of these instances did a democratic government,
                                respectful of human rights, occur as a direct result?
                                 
                                Choose one of the following:
                                (a) 0
                                (b) zero
                                (c) none
                                (d) not a one
                                (e) a whole number between -1 and +1




                                ___________________________________

                                <http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/mc505>
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                              • Ravi Ivan Sharma
                                woa. I have to agree with the point that perhaps bob is too over the top, but no need for name calling. Censor yourself or get off the list. Ravi ... From:
                                Message 15 of 26 , Apr 1, 2003
                                  woa. I have to agree with the point that perhaps bob is too over the top, but no need for name calling. Censor yourself or get off the list.

                                  Ravi
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 1:28 PM
                                  Subject: Re: [mc505] Re: OT: An Iraqi deserter's story - BS

                                  In a message dated 4/1/2003 11:19:38 AM Central Standard Time, bob_dunham@... writes:


                                  Tell your Iranian friend that the US will be attacking Iran next, he
                                  should be happy.  Did you know that only one of our 600+ congressmen
                                  has a son or daughter in the military?  Do you really think getting
                                  rid of SH will change much of anything in the long run? Is Afganistan
                                  a beautiful place to live now?  Do some research b4 posting more pro
                                  death rhetoric please........  Check this out:
                                  Here is a history quiz recently aired by ABC.


                                  I will tell him.  And i'm sure he'll retell me the story of how he watched his parents die from being gassed by saddam's soldiers.  Someone was kind enough to get them back to their homes just in time for him to watch them die.  I'm not posting PRO DEATH RHETORIC you pompous faggot.  You're obviously one of those bitchmade anti war doo gooders!  War is NEVER good, but sometimes it's necessary.  World war 2 had many more casualties than this one can ever expect to have, yet people supported their troops because they knew it had to be done.  The problem now is that now there is more media coverage and everyone can see how ugly war truly is.  All of a sudden they get queasy eh? FREEDOM IS NEVER PAID FOR.  IT IS A LEASE AND MUST BE PAID ON FROM TIME TO TIME! I for one appreciate my right to be able to say these things to you without someone executing my family.  I guess you don't.  That's your choice. The French would be speaking German now if we had allowed Hitler's reich to continue to flourish.  I never spoke or cried out for more death.  Maybe YOU should read my post a bit more before you start labeling me, you BITCH.

                                  JENOVA


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                                • Jose
                                  You re obviously one of those bitchmade anti war doo gooders! War is NEVER good, but sometimes it s necessary. World war 2 had many more casualties than this
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Apr 1, 2003
                                     
                                    You're obviously one of those bitchmade anti war doo gooders!  War is NEVER good, but sometimes it's necessary.  World war 2 had many more casualties than this one can ever expect to have, yet people supported their troops because they knew it had to be done. 
                                     
                                    The only fair war is the one that is fought by the people from a certain country in defense of their own country. WWII US intervention was fully justified after the bombing of Pearl Harbour. The Independence war was also a fair war from that point of view.
                                     
                                    Everything else is just plain wrong. England on China: wrong, they were driven by economical ambitions. Vietnam ? Wrong, driven by political aspirations. Germany on France ? Wrong, driven by nacionalist ambitions.
                                     
                                    That kind of war is always, always lost in the end, because it is a close relative of Piracy, intimate friend of Rape, and a vicious daughter of Greed.
                                     
                                    I know that Saddam Hussein is not a saint. We can compare him to Hitler when it comes to ambition and racism. But George Bush is a clear winner when it comes to compare someone to Hitler. To him, the world is divided between good and evil -and there's nothing else-. We are with him or against him. He's willing to devour a country to satisfy... what ? The will of his people ? The will of many ? I can't recall american people marching on the streets and calling for a war on Iraq. I can't recall a single moment when everybody had said "It's enough, let's ask our president to remove Saddam Hussein from his throne" or marched asking for it.
                                     
                                    Nowadays, i'm still not very sure why is the USA fighting this war. As one of the captured soldiers stated "They sent me here. I have nothing against iraq's people". Why are you fighting this war, because you want to fight it and you feel that SH is a menace to you or just because someone ordered you or convinced you to hate him ?
                                     
                                    I just feel sad for those boys and girls captured by the iraq soldiers. I'm sure that they will suffer in their flesh the mistakes of a few guys who sent them there. I feel sad for the civilians of iraq: tortured first by a dictator, murdered then by the bombs thrown by a country they never saw in their life, from a country they never care for in their life. The closest comparison is 9/11. Why in the world would a man from Afghanisthan kill as many americans as possible by killing himself in a plane ? Because he wanted to ? No, because someone sent him there. If he'd had been captured, he would have stated "I have nothing against american people. They sent me here". Both are acts of stupidity, fought for causes that we cannot even understand.
                                     
                                    Someone once said "War is when two men who don't know each other try to kill the other for the profit of other men who actually know each other but don't kill each other".
                                     
                                    Jose
                                  • Ravi Ivan Sharma
                                    I think the quote is yours Jose, I couldn find it on google so am quoting it as yours on a list of my friends in Toronto. I like it. ... From: Jose To:
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Apr 1, 2003
                                      I think the quote is yours Jose, I couldn find it on google so am quoting it as yours on a list of my friends in Toronto. I like it.
                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      From: Jose
                                      Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2003 12:03 AM
                                      Subject: Re: [mc505] Re: OT: An Iraqi deserter's story - BS

                                       
                                      Someone once said "War is when two men who don't know each other try to kill the other for the profit of other men who actually know each other but don't kill each other".
                                       
                                      Jose


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                                    • Jose
                                      I read the quote in a bulletin board at the place where i work. Perhaps the translation is not accurate enough... ... De: Ravi Ivan Sharma Para:
                                      Message 18 of 26 , Apr 1, 2003
                                        I read the quote in a bulletin board at the place where i work. Perhaps the translation is not accurate enough...
                                        ----- Mensaje original -----
                                        Enviado: miércoles, 02 de abril de 2003 1:07
                                        Asunto: Re: [mc505] Re: OT: An Iraqi deserter's story - BS

                                        I think the quote is yours Jose, I couldn find it on google so am quoting it as yours on a list of my friends in Toronto. I like it.
                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        From: Jose
                                        Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2003 12:03 AM
                                        Subject: Re: [mc505] Re: OT: An Iraqi deserter's story - BS

                                         
                                        Someone once said "War is when two men who don't know each other try to kill the other for the profit of other men who actually know each other but don't kill each other".
                                         
                                        Jose


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                                      • ras
                                        Jose, just FYI. The huge majority of the 9/11 terrorists were from Saudi Arabia, there were no Iraqis and I m not even sure if there were any any Afghani s.
                                        Message 19 of 26 , Apr 2, 2003
                                          Jose, just FYI. The huge majority of the 9/11 terrorists were from
                                          Saudi Arabia, there were no Iraqis and I'm not even sure if there
                                          were any any Afghani's.

                                          For anyone to relate Iraq to 9/11 is certainly stretching the facts
                                          beyond the point of truth.

                                          --- In mc505@yahoogroups.com, "Jose" <taliesin@t...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          . The closest comparison is 9/11. Why in the world would a man from
                                          Afghanisthan kill as many americans as possible by killing himself in
                                          a plane ? Because he wanted to ? No, because someone sent him there.
                                          If he'd had been captured, he would have stated "I have nothing
                                          against american people. They sent me here". Both are acts of
                                          stupidity, fought for causes that we cannot even understand.
                                          >
                                          > Someone once said "War is when two men who don't know each other
                                          try to kill the other for the profit of other men who actually know
                                          each other but don't kill each other".
                                          >
                                          > Jose
                                        • eporollete
                                          ... Are you saying Bush is a liar? Come on! ;-P Epo
                                          Message 20 of 26 , Apr 2, 2003
                                            --- In mc505@yahoogroups.com, "ras" <_leras@y...> wrote:

                                            > For anyone to relate Iraq to 9/11 is certainly stretching the facts
                                            > beyond the point of truth.
                                            >

                                            Are you saying Bush is a liar? Come on! ;-P


                                            Epo
                                          • ras
                                            Right, so you don t have time to watch the news. Probably just as well with the one sided rubbish you would get currently in the US. I guess the problem is the
                                            Message 21 of 26 , Apr 2, 2003
                                              Right, so you don't have time to watch the news. Probably just as
                                              well with the one sided rubbish you would get currently in the US. I
                                              guess the problem is the US papers aren't any better AND you don't
                                              have time to read them either...

                                              In which case I wonder where your point of view comes from - the
                                              occasional snatched headline, Bush quote or equally uninformed
                                              colleaugue at work. Wonderful.

                                              I would recommend to you to take a look at the Al-Jazeera news
                                              website to help balance your views. But, ooops, in the name of free
                                              speech and freedom the US have made sure the website is unavailable
                                              to the public through subversive means of illegally taking down.



                                              --- In mc505@yahoogroups.com, drsheltagus@a... wrote:
                                              > Grow up and think for myself? For your information I work too
                                              damned much to
                                              > even WATCH the news. These ARE my views and to say that I need
                                              to 'grow up'
                                              > because I do not think the way you do shows that you've a little
                                              growing up
                                              > to do yourself.
                                              >
                                              > JenovA
                                            • greg spicer
                                              i love that- cracks me up to think people still believe that- come on! greg The French would be speaking German now if we ... out
                                              Message 22 of 26 , Apr 2, 2003
                                                i love that- cracks me up to think people still believe that- come
                                                on!

                                                greg

                                                The French would be speaking German now if we
                                                > had allowed
                                                > > Hitler's reich to continue to flourish. I never spoke or cried
                                                out
                                                > for more
                                                > > death.
                                              • Jose
                                                Yes, i know, 9/11 is the closest example given the lack of a better one. There is a very weak bond between the invasion of Irak and 9/11, however many people i
                                                Message 23 of 26 , Apr 2, 2003
                                                  Yes, i know, 9/11 is the closest example given the lack of a better one. There is a very weak bond between the invasion of Irak and 9/11, however many people i know use it as an excuse for the war on Irak.
                                                   
                                                  Jose
                                                  ----- Mensaje original -----
                                                  De: ras
                                                  Enviado: miércoles, 02 de abril de 2003 4:48
                                                  Asunto: [mc505] Re: OT: An Iraqi deserter's story - BS

                                                  Jose, just FYI. The huge majority of the 9/11 terrorists were from
                                                  Saudi Arabia, there were no Iraqis and I'm not even sure if there
                                                  were any any Afghani's.

                                                  For anyone to relate Iraq to 9/11 is certainly stretching the facts
                                                  beyond the point of truth.

                                                  --- In mc505@yahoogroups.com, "Jose" <taliesin@t...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  . The closest comparison is 9/11. Why in the world would a man from
                                                  Afghanisthan kill as many americans as possible by killing himself in
                                                  a plane ? Because he wanted to ? No, because someone sent him there.
                                                  If he'd had been captured, he would have stated "I have nothing
                                                  against american people. They sent me here". Both are acts of
                                                  stupidity, fought for causes that we cannot even understand.
                                                  >
                                                  > Someone once said "War is when two men who don't know each other
                                                  try to kill the other for the profit of other men who actually know
                                                  each other but don't kill each other".
                                                  >
                                                  > Jose


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                                                • Tomonori Matsumura
                                                  Uhh.. I guess a guy from Iraq said he hates SH to death is for protecting himself from attack US people. If I were that guy, I want SH to die, but don t like
                                                  Message 24 of 26 , Apr 2, 2003
                                                    Uhh.. I guess a guy from Iraq said he hates SH to death is for protecting himself from attack US people.   If I were that guy, I want SH to die, but don't like to see my neigbors in my old country dying..... 
                                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                                    From: ras
                                                    Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2003 5:01 AM
                                                    Subject: [mc505] Re: OT: An Iraqi deserter's story - BS

                                                    Jenova - the story you posted of the Iraqi deserter that approves of
                                                    the war is pretty lame rubbish.

                                                    I hate to say it but your post below also gives me the impression
                                                    that you are one of many americans who are lapping up the pro war
                                                    propaganda that you are being soon fed by your ridiculously pathetic
                                                    non independent news services.

                                                    Grow up and think for yourself.

                                                    --- In mc505@yahoogroups.com, drsheltagus@a... wrote:
                                                    > In a message dated 4/1/2003 11:19:38 AM Central Standard Time,
                                                    > bob_dunham@h... writes:
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > > Tell your Iranian friend that the US will be attacking Iran next,
                                                    he
                                                    > > should be happy.  Did you know that only one of our 600+
                                                    congressmen
                                                    > > has a son or daughter in the military?  Do you really think
                                                    getting
                                                    > > rid of SH will change much of anything in the long run? Is
                                                    Afganistan
                                                    > > a beautiful place to live now?  Do some research b4 posting more
                                                    pro
                                                    > > death rhetoric please........  Check this out:
                                                    > > Here is a history quiz recently aired by ABC.
                                                    > >
                                                    >
                                                    > I will tell him.  And i'm sure he'll retell me the story of how he
                                                    watched
                                                    > his parents die from being gassed by saddam's soldiers.  Someone
                                                    was kind
                                                    > enough to get them back to their homes just in time for him to
                                                    watch them
                                                    > die.  I'm not posting PRO DEATH RHETORIC you pompous faggot. 
                                                    You're
                                                    > obviously one of those bitchmade anti war doo gooders!  War is
                                                    NEVER good,
                                                    > but sometimes it's necessary.  World war 2 had many more casualties
                                                    than this
                                                    > one can ever expect to have, yet people supported their troops
                                                    because they
                                                    > knew it had to be done.  The problem now is that now there is more
                                                    media
                                                    > coverage and everyone can see how ugly war truly is.  All of a
                                                    sudden they
                                                    > get queasy eh? FREEDOM IS NEVER PAID FOR.  IT IS A LEASE AND MUST
                                                    BE PAID ON
                                                    > FROM TIME TO TIME! I for one appreciate my right to be able to say
                                                    these
                                                    > things to you without someone executing my family.  I guess you
                                                    don't. 
                                                    > That's your choice. The French would be speaking German now if we
                                                    had allowed
                                                    > Hitler's reich to continue to flourish.  I never spoke or cried out
                                                    for more
                                                    > death.  Maybe YOU should read my post a bit more before you start
                                                    labeling
                                                    > me, you BITCH.
                                                    >
                                                    > JENOVA



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                                                  • bob_dunham
                                                    ... damned much to _____________________ Well I am sorry about your friend at the pizza parlour, you both seem very angry after being affected by the violence
                                                    Message 25 of 26 , Apr 2, 2003
                                                      --- In mc505@yahoogroups.com, drsheltagus@a... wrote:
                                                      > Grow up and think for myself? For your information I work too
                                                      damned much to
                                                      _____________________
                                                      Well I am sorry about your friend at the pizza parlour, you both seem
                                                      very angry after being affected by the violence of war. It may be a
                                                      long time until heeling can occur between nations, but good luck to
                                                      you both.
                                                      The OT was for ON Topic, in fact after hearing some more stories
                                                      about the war, Im actually in favor of conquering Iraq. Yes thats
                                                      right, I heard that some Iraqi soldiers who surrendured had their
                                                      Mc505's confiscated by American and British troops. When the excited
                                                      coalition forces begin jamming out in the dessert with their new
                                                      505's they began twidling the knobs, but the 505's were rigged to
                                                      explode! We are going Nuclear on Bagdad...........
                                                    • Darren E
                                                      (F) I don t care and only want to talk about music and art on this list. (This could go on forever...just like when football season starts in Europe)
                                                      Message 26 of 26 , Apr 2, 2003

                                                        (F) I don't care and only want to talk about music and art on this list.

                                                        (This could go on forever...just like when football season starts in Europe)

                                                         erik_magrini@... wrote:


                                                        (f)  I don't care and only want to talk about music and art on this list.

                                                        rEalm



                                                        Choose one of the following:
                                                        (a) 0
                                                        (b) zero
                                                        (c) none
                                                        (d) not a one
                                                        (e) a whole number between -1 and +1



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                                                        Darren E
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