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cast iron liner thickness??

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  • Gavin
    I am looking into re sleaving my 1954 MV CS175... If I take the bore from 59.5 to 70 I will have 238.6CC but more likely 69 bore and 231cc... ANYWAY! The
    Message 1 of 21 , Feb 1, 2005
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      I am looking into re sleaving my 1954 MV CS175...
      If I take the bore from 59.5 to 70 I will have 238.6CC but more
      likely 69 bore and 231cc...

      ANYWAY!

      The question I have is this...
      In an air cooled race engine with an aliminum barrel...
      How thin or thick do I have to have the cast iron liner?

      Any ideas anyone?

      regards
      Gavin
    • Ian
      ... 3.0 mm is the minimum, 3.5 mm is better for AC. You can push them down to 2.5 in a WC motor, any less is asking for trouble. ( I have and I got it )
      Message 2 of 21 , Feb 1, 2005
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        > I am looking into re sleaving my 1954 MV CS175...
        > If I take the bore from 59.5 to 70 I will have 238.6CC but more
        > likely 69 bore and 231cc...
        >
        > ANYWAY!
        >
        > The question I have is this...
        > In an air cooled race engine with an aliminum barrel...
        > How thin or thick do I have to have the cast iron liner?

        3.0 mm is the minimum, 3.5 mm is better for AC.

        You can push them down to 2.5 in a WC motor, any less
        is asking for trouble. ( I have and I got it )


        Cheers IAN


        --
        DRYSDALE MOTORCYCLE CO.
        AUSTRALIA
        PH: +613 9562 4260
        FAX: +613 9546 8938
        NEW WEBSITE:
        750-V8 & 1000-V8 MOTORCYCLES,
        2X2X2, RACECAR & CARBERRY-ENFIELD
        V-TWIN SITE :
        http://www.drysdalev8.com
      • Gavin
        Great Ian! Thanks for that info. I will go and measure the barrel now and see how much ali is left with the various bore sizes. Is it possible to make a Ali in
        Message 3 of 21 , Feb 1, 2005
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          Great Ian! Thanks for that info.
          I will go and measure the barrel now and see how much ali is left with the various bore sizes.
           
          Is it possible to make a Ali in set and have the bore chromed??
           
          By the way GREAT V8 sound bite on your site!!!!!
           
          Seriously everyone should go and download it.... made my cat go crazy. :)
          Regards
          Gavin
           
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Ian
          Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 3:21 AM
          Subject: Re: cast iron liner thickness??

          > I am looking into re sleaving my 1954 MV CS175...
          > If I take the bore from 59.5 to 70 I will have 238.6CC but more
          > likely 69 bore and 231cc...
          >
          > ANYWAY!
          >
          > The question I have is this...
          > In an air cooled race engine with an aliminum barrel...
          > How thin or thick do I have to have the cast iron liner?

          3.0 mm is the minimum, 3.5 mm is better for AC.

          You can push them down to 2.5 in a WC motor, any less
          is asking for trouble.  ( I have and I got it )


          Cheers   IAN


          --
          DRYSDALE  MOTORCYCLE CO.
          AUSTRALIA
          PH:  +613 9562 4260
          FAX: +613 9546 8938
          NEW WEBSITE:
          750-V8 & 1000-V8 MOTORCYCLES,
          2X2X2, RACECAR & CARBERRY-ENFIELD
          V-TWIN SITE :
          http://www.drysdalev8.com




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        • Gavin
          I am not an engine builders arse, so any basic comments are welcome, however obvious they might seem to you guys!! I have the ali barrel and cases in hand
          Message 4 of 21 , Feb 1, 2005
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            I am not an engine builders arse, so any basic comments are welcome, however obvious they might seem to you guys!!
             
            I have the ali barrel and cases in hand now..
             
            I have meassured the barrel and cases... seems a 70 piston would fit ok.. with 3mm wall thickness cast iron liner...
            (70 by 62 is 238.6cc)
            The hole in the case is 76mm.... 70 for piston 6 total for cast liner... what say you people??
            On the top of the barrel it would leave 10mm (7 ali 3 cast iron) from the piston edge to the cam chain hole and stud holes...
             
            How that mates to the head I have not considered yet...
             
            Any comments?
             
            Regards
            Gavin
             
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Ian
            Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 3:21 AM
            Subject: Re: cast iron liner thickness??

            > I am looking into re sleaving my 1954 MV CS175...
            > If I take the bore from 59.5 to 70 I will have 238.6CC but more
            > likely 69 bore and 231cc...
            >
            > ANYWAY!
            >
            > The question I have is this...
            > In an air cooled race engine with an aliminum barrel...
            > How thin or thick do I have to have the cast iron liner?

            3.0 mm is the minimum, 3.5 mm is better for AC.

            You can push them down to 2.5 in a WC motor, any less
            is asking for trouble.  ( I have and I got it )


            Cheers   IAN

          • tom oathoudt
            I am in total ageement with IAN ... __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone.
            Message 5 of 21 , Feb 1, 2005
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              I am in total ageement with IAN

              --- Gavin <gavinnz@...> wrote:

              > Great Ian! Thanks for that info.
              > I will go and measure the barrel now and see how
              > much ali is left with the various bore sizes.
              >
              > Is it possible to make a Ali in set and have the
              > bore chromed??
              >
              > By the way GREAT V8 sound bite on your site!!!!!
              >
              > Seriously everyone should go and download it....
              > made my cat go crazy. :)
              > Regards
              > Gavin
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: Ian
              > To: mc-engine@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 3:21 AM
              > Subject: Re: cast iron liner thickness??
              >
              >
              > > I am looking into re sleaving my 1954 MV
              > CS175...
              > > If I take the bore from 59.5 to 70 I will have
              > 238.6CC but more
              > > likely 69 bore and 231cc...
              > >
              > > ANYWAY!
              > >
              > > The question I have is this...
              > > In an air cooled race engine with an aliminum
              > barrel...
              > > How thin or thick do I have to have the cast
              > iron liner?
              >
              > 3.0 mm is the minimum, 3.5 mm is better for AC.
              >
              > You can push them down to 2.5 in a WC motor, any
              > less
              > is asking for trouble. ( I have and I got it )
              >
              >
              > Cheers IAN
              >
              >
              > --
              > DRYSDALE MOTORCYCLE CO.
              > AUSTRALIA
              > PH: +613 9562 4260
              > FAX: +613 9546 8938
              > NEW WEBSITE:
              > 750-V8 & 1000-V8 MOTORCYCLES,
              > 2X2X2, RACECAR & CARBERRY-ENFIELD
              > V-TWIN SITE :
              > http://www.drysdalev8.com
              >
              >
              >
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            • Ian
              ... Plenty of room, all the big bore 4 cylinder bikes push the land between bores down to 6 or 7 mm. Engine builders regularly bore these out so that a 5 mm
              Message 6 of 21 , Feb 2, 2005
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                > I have meassured the barrel and cases... seems a 70 piston would fit ok.. with
                > 3mm wall thickness cast iron liner...(70 by 62 is 238.6cc)The hole in the case
                > is 76mm.... 70 for piston 6 total for cast liner... what say you people??On
                > the top of the barrel it would leave 10mm (7 ali 3 cast iron) from the piston
                > edge to the cam chain hole and stud holes...

                Plenty of room, all the big bore 4 cylinder bikes push the land
                between bores down to 6 or 7 mm. Engine builders regularly
                bore these out so that a 5 mm land between bores remains,
                reportedly with reliability.

                You will need to have a "top hat" style liner, the lip on the top
                can be used for the head gasket seal.


                Cheers IAN


                --
                DRYSDALE MOTORCYCLE CO.
                AUSTRALIA
                PH: +613 9562 4260
                FAX: +613 9546 8938
                NEW WEBSITE:
                750-V8 & 1000-V8 MOTORCYCLES,
                2X2X2, RACECAR & CARBERRY-ENFIELD
                V-TWIN SITE :
                http://www.drysdalev8.com
              • Greg Summerton
                Ian and all, Sorry to add controversy to the subject, but I ve been getting away with a 92 mm piston in a 96mm OD liner for many years (14) on my 1962 ESO
                Message 7 of 21 , Feb 2, 2005
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                  Ian and all,
                  Sorry to add controversy to the subject, but I've been getting away with
                  a 92 mm piston in a 96mm OD liner for many years (14) on my 1962 ESO
                  (later sold under the jawa badge) speedway engined outfit used for
                  historic racing and also for open class dirt track.
                  This is a 2mm wall thickness.

                  The engine uses standard parts, apart from the roller follower
                  conversion and profiles to match..
                  To race the up to 650 'Junior' class, I made the engine as big as my
                  parts bin would allow at the time.
                  It uses a long stroke (85mm) 4 valve Jawa crank instead of the standard
                  82mm and also a 92mm slug in place of the standard 88mm bore.

                  the engine went much better than the modest capacity increase would
                  provide, seems I fluked a superior combustion space, the squish from the
                  4mm bigger piston helping a lot, no doubt.

                  The bike has won Australian up to 650 Historic Road Racing
                  Championships, several state titles and also used successfully on the
                  mile and a quarter long track (dirt track) at Morgan several times.
                  It has been a most successful and reliable bike...with a thin liner.

                  The liner is 96.3mm OD for about half its length where it goes through
                  the aluminium muff, dropping down to 96 for the other half length it
                  goes into the cases.
                  I don't know exactly what grade of material Jawa use for their liners,
                  all I know is that it is really tough and needs a SHARP tool when you do
                  a rebore, for sure.

                  Anyone know if the Jawa liner material is special?
                  Greg
                • Marin California
                  Guys, There are more variables to this than just liner wall thickness, including rod ratio, compression ratio, bore diameter, stroke, muff support, rpm, BMEP,
                  Message 8 of 21 , Feb 3, 2005
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                    Guys,
                    There are more variables to this than just liner
                    wall thickness, including rod ratio, compression
                    ratio, bore diameter, stroke, muff support, rpm, BMEP,
                    cooling method, whether there are holes in the liner
                    as in an, ahem, 2 stroke and liner material. If your
                    liner is obviously iron but is of reduced magnetic
                    property than most iron or steel, it could easily be
                    of high Austenite content as are original BSA Goldstar
                    liners which are indeed stout or it could have a high
                    nickle content which helps toughness. Meehanite
                    http://www.meehanite.com/ is good liner material
                    because it is temperature stable and fine grained but
                    most cylinder liner grades aren't very strong.
                    Additionally, even some cylinders from otherwise
                    identical engines perform markedly better than others.
                    A friend who is a former AMA National Champion and
                    world class developer had one set of favorite
                    cylinders which would consistently out perform all his
                    other sets. C'est la vie.

                    Ken A

                    ====================================

                    --- Greg Summerton <gregss@...> wrote:

                    > Ian and all,
                    > Sorry to add controversy to the subject, but I've
                    > been getting away with
                    > a 92 mm piston in a 96mm OD liner for many years

                    > This is a 2mm wall thickness.

                    > I don't know exactly what grade of material Jawa use
                    > for their liners,
                    > all I know is that it is really tough and needs a
                    > SHARP tool when you do
                    > a rebore, for sure.
                    >
                    > Anyone know if the Jawa liner material is special?
                    > Greg

                    =====




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                  • Paul Friday
                    In message , Greg Summerton writes ... Wasn t good cast iron a Jawa speciality? -- ... Paul Friday
                    Message 9 of 21 , Feb 3, 2005
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                      In message <4201A9EE.8050700@...>, Greg Summerton
                      <gregss@...> writes
                      >Anyone know if the Jawa liner material is special?

                      Wasn't good cast iron a Jawa speciality?
                      --
                      ----------------------------
                      Paul Friday
                    • David Kath
                      Gents .. Ken sure speaks da trute regards the liner thickness issue. You may want to tune in to what he says. I do. I ll share a bit as I doubt our
                      Message 10 of 21 , Feb 3, 2005
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                        Gents .. Ken sure 'speaks da trute' regards the liner thickness issue.
                        You may want to tune in to what he says. I do.
                        I'll share a bit as I doubt our 'competition' is paying any attention
                        here. Bear in mind I have little/no 'real engineering' talent regards
                        this issue. Blather? I dunno ...
                        I've spent some time over the years trying to make the BSA Gold Stars
                        faster (with austenitic steel liners) as Ken has mentioned. One of the
                        long time issues has been cylinder distortion with these engines.
                        i.e. "Don't use a top head steady for max power but allow the cylinder
                        to wave in the wind", the BSA factory told us in the '60s. "There is
                        from 1-2 hp more available without the top head steady". hmmm. This is
                        also 'the gospel' proven by the tuners from that era who were making a
                        respectable 50+ hp with these 500cc engines at 8k+ revs in the early '60s.

                        Along these lines ... a friend who used to build 1500+ hp (years ago)
                        blown fuely Chrysler Hemi dragster engines, would positioned a dial
                        indicator on the base of his dyno to measure crank case flex of those
                        huge iron blocks. Oohh, how did the cranks live?

                        But with 'modern' replacement cylinders now available for Goldies with a
                        thicker/stronger alu muff casting there is now a option. These alu muff
                        castings are actually made thicker to allow use of a larger OD 'big
                        bore' austenitic 90 mm bore liner vs OEM 85 mm bore engines. I said
                        hmmm. What if I have a thicker, large OD. liner installed in the heavy
                        muff but bored for 85 mm for the 500 racer? Yup, did it. It's unproved
                        but it sure can't hurt seems to me.

                        But of course this may/may not apply to smaller or more modern engines.
                        Interestingly when the current water cooled 'modern' 450 MX engines are
                        bored out a couple of mm when being built as a bored/stroked 502s, the
                        bore is completely machined away and a thicker wall alu 'liner' is
                        welded in. What a commotion eh?
                        As the man once said, "You want to go fast, bring monies, many monies".
                        aarrgh.

                        I'm told the 'secret' of the Matchless G50 racing engines vs the OEM
                        Norton Manx back during The Era was mostly due to the rigidity of the
                        engine. The repop Manxs are now made much more rigid and running well.
                        Interesting stuff seems to me. But of course with current
                        engineering/design this issue is no longer much of a problem unless you
                        are dealing with huge power outputs.

                        Max rigidity is a good thing. (if It lasts for more than 4 hours call
                        all your friends! heh)
                        end of spiel,
                        dave - NV
                        having fun like many others worldwide playing with the old Brit Iron

                        Marin California wrote:

                        >Guys,
                        > There are more variables to this than just liner
                        >wall thickness, including rod ratio, compression
                        >ratio, bore diameter, stroke, muff support, rpm, BMEP,
                        >cooling method, whether there are holes in the liner
                        >as in an, ahem, 2 stroke and liner material. If your
                        >liner is obviously iron but is of reduced magnetic
                        >property than most iron or steel, it could easily be
                        >of high Austenitic content as are original BSA Goldstar
                        >liners which are indeed stout or it could have a high
                        >nickle content which helps toughness. Meehanite
                        >http://www.meehanite.com/ is good liner material
                        >because it is temperature stable and fine grained but
                        >most cylinder liner grades aren't very strong.
                        >Additionally, even some cylinders from otherwise
                        >identical engines perform markedly better than others.
                        > A friend who is a former AMA National Champion and
                        >world class developer had one set of favorite
                        >cylinders which would consistently out perform all his
                        >other sets. C'est la vie.
                        >
                        >Ken A
                        >
                        >
                        >
                      • Ian
                        ... In an alloy barrel ? Pressed / shrunk in or cast in ? ... Could be SG cast, which you could run a bit thinner, it s a harder to machine than grey cast
                        Message 11 of 21 , Feb 3, 2005
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                          > Sorry to add controversy to the subject, but I've been getting away with
                          > a 92 mm piston in a 96mm OD liner for many years (14) on my 1962 ESO
                          > (later sold under the jawa badge) speedway engined outfit used for
                          > historic racing and also for open class dirt track.
                          > This is a 2mm wall thickness.

                          In an alloy barrel ?

                          Pressed / shrunk in or cast in ?


                          > Anyone know if the Jawa liner material is special?

                          Could be SG cast, which you could run a bit thinner, it's
                          a harder to machine than grey cast iron.


                          Cheers IAN


                          --
                          DRYSDALE MOTORCYCLE CO.
                          AUSTRALIA
                          PH: +613 9562 4260
                          FAX: +613 9546 8938
                          NEW WEBSITE:
                          750-V8 & 1000-V8 MOTORCYCLES,
                          2X2X2, RACECAR & CARBERRY-ENFIELD
                          V-TWIN SITE :
                          http://www.drysdalev8.com
                        • Ray & Sonja Crenshaw
                          ... To what do we attribute this? Assuming, as I must, that it s true, is it because (as is somewhat implied) using a head-stay on top turns the top-end into a
                          Message 12 of 21 , Feb 4, 2005
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                            > "There is from 1-2 hp more available without the top head steady"

                            To what do we attribute this? Assuming, as I must, that it's true, is it because (as is
                            somewhat implied) using a head-stay on top turns the top-end into a load bearing
                            structure, and the chassis/engine vibration loads distort the cylinder, causing poorer
                            ring seal?

                            It seems that for many reasons you'd want the engine "tied" together was tightly as
                            possible, but not if it caused cylinder distortion.

                            jrc in SC
                          • Marin California
                            ... It could also cause internal engine component misalignment which usually causes additional friction but indeed, the loss of cylinder seal seems the biggest
                            Message 13 of 21 , Feb 4, 2005
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                              --- Ray & Sonja Crenshaw <raymanz93@...>
                              wrote:

                              > > "There is from 1-2 hp more available without the
                              > top head steady"
                              >
                              > To what do we attribute this? Assuming, as I must,
                              > that it's true, is it because (as is
                              > somewhat implied) using a head-stay on top turns the
                              > top-end into a load bearing
                              > structure, and the chassis/engine vibration loads
                              > distort the cylinder, causing poorer
                              > ring seal?

                              It could also cause internal engine component
                              misalignment which usually causes additional friction
                              but indeed, the loss of cylinder seal seems the
                              biggest problem to me.

                              > It seems that for many reasons you'd want the engine
                              > "tied" together was tightly as
                              > possible, but not if it caused cylinder distortion.

                              Connecting the top of the engine to the
                              chassis could cause power reducing engine distortion
                              from chassis loads into the engine but if properly
                              done, connecting the top of the engine to the chassis
                              could possibly increase the chassis stiffness so it
                              seems there would be a trade off in performance
                              depending whether loss of power or loss of handling
                              was the bigger problem. The BSA engine and mounts
                              seem quite flimsy to me even with the odd turnbuckles
                              which hold down the top end and the stock swing arm
                              pivots were rubber flex bushings so the otherwise
                              decent chassis was known to be compromised in those
                              areas but the tires with which it was used were likely
                              the weakest link of all and the main frame itself
                              seems the least of the problems with a Gold Scar.
                              Tying the cylinder head to the steering head with a
                              single direction tension/compression strap, as was
                              stock, would do little to enhance the chassis
                              torsional stiffness which seems more important to me
                              but without an integrated approach to the overall
                              system stiffness, one could merely be chasing weak
                              links and gremlins around the vehicle only to have the
                              game change under variable riding conditions. Thus,
                              the overall solution set was not necessarily a matter
                              of any one parameter and the overall effectiveness of
                              the package was as much due to availability, afford
                              ability and homoligation factors as it was of physical
                              performance. Either way though, for real
                              improvement, it seems both the BSA chassis and engine
                              need integrated stiffening if that doesn't affect the
                              legality which eliminated the Matchless and Norton
                              entries from the classes which BSA dominated in their
                              absence.
                              I did like the Goldie I raced and if a lappee
                              hadn't fallen in front of me, I had a bunch of current
                              big bore two strokes and 500cc twins behind me the
                              last time I raced one. The crash dislocated my thumb
                              and in the following 500cc/unlimited combined race
                              large displacement twins I ran fourth of about thirty
                              entries but later that year I won a 500cc Motocross
                              with a G-80 which had far less power than the BSA but
                              had a better fork. As I said, overall effectiveness
                              including my lack of actual riding skill.


                              KA in Marin ( Moron? ) CA


                              > jrc in SC
                              >
                              >

                              =====




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                            • Peter
                              They probably still had a couple of Panzers to melt down as well! PJ
                              Message 14 of 21 , Feb 4, 2005
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                                They probably still had a couple of Panzers to melt down as well!
                                PJ

                                >Anyone know if the Jawa liner material is special?
                                >
                                > Wasn't good cast iron a Jawa speciality?
                                > --
                                > ----------------------------
                                > Paul Friday
                              • Greg Summerton
                                Dave, I sure do tune in to Ken s opinions ...and several others on this wonderful list. I just checked the mag properties of all the liners I have in the
                                Message 15 of 21 , Feb 4, 2005
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                                  Dave, I sure do 'tune in' to Ken's opinions ...and several others on
                                  this wonderful list.

                                  I just checked the mag properties of all the liners I have in the
                                  workshop and found all are reasonably attracted to my old powerful
                                  speaker magnet, except the ESO/Jawa 2 valve speedway liners and my 1949
                                  and 1952 OHC Jawa twin 500 liners.
                                  I have an LA Sleeve Co liner for an old Yam 500 big bore and it is
                                  magnetic and so are all the Japanese bike liners. I don't have a Goldie
                                  liner in the place at the mo'.

                                  I'd never thought much about liner materials before. Only the speedway
                                  ESO/Jawa items because of their seemingly brilliant low wear (I guess
                                  they need something tough to withstand the dirt ingested in the days
                                  when speedway and dirt track machine air 'filters' consisted of a
                                  stocking over the bellmouth!)

                                  Back in the late 70s when I put my TT500 Yam on 14:1 for dirt track I
                                  had probs blowing the large surface area copper head gasket till I
                                  borrowed the copper o-ring idea from the drag racing guys, worked a
                                  treat.I would turn a 40 thou wide, 30 thou deep groove in the top
                                  surface of the liner boss where I put a 40 thou piece of copper to from
                                  a good 'o-ring' seal to the head gasket.
                                  Easy to do to the Yam liner but really tough on a ESO or Jawa (same
                                  thing) speedway liner.


                                  Interesting, because prior to 1965 ESO speedway engines were not
                                  connected with Jawa. Later on the 'government' decided that when the ESO
                                  showed promise on the world speedway stage that they would sell em
                                  badged as Jawa rather than set up new dealerships etc.
                                  I'd never thought of checking my older OHC Jawa twins. They were built
                                  before ESO designed and built the 2 valve speedway engine in 1953.
                                  It seems that the same tough liner material as a Czechs thing and not
                                  just a Jawa thing.

                                  Anyhow, my main interest in this subject is what material could I use
                                  for a new larger diam liner 2mm thick to replace the old one?
                                  I realise the material is important and I've proven that the existing
                                  material works at 2mm.
                                  Why do I want to do this?
                                  I just returned my 1962 ESO-engined Norton to Historic road racing at
                                  Australia's Phillip Island last weekend, after a 13 year absence.
                                  Boy! Those 'new' G50s and Manxes are FAST!

                                  13 years ago I was lapping fast enough to get seconds against the best
                                  in the country. Those lap times do not cut it anymore.
                                  We have a big field of NZ and English guys at this event and a heap of
                                  the later fast newly built Nortons and Matchlesses.

                                  I need more speed.
                                  I know I cannot match them but I can get closer for sure. I need to
                                  build the biggest bore into it that I can. I'll bore the liner and cases
                                  and stretch it as far as the holding down bolts will allow and go for
                                  the squish and better combustion space I achieved on the overbored
                                  sidecar ESO engine I built years ago, and I'll make new wheels to suit
                                  the bore to keep it at 500.
                                  But I need a larger OD liner and from what I've 'learnt' about liner
                                  thicknesses and materials so far....I'd better make the right choice.

                                  Any suggestions?
                                  Greg

                                  >Message: 1
                                  > Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 11:45:34 -0800 (PST)
                                  > From: Marin California <marinca555@...>
                                  >Subject: Re: cast iron liner thickness??
                                  >
                                  >Guys,
                                  > There are more variables to this than just liner
                                  >wall thickness, including rod ratio, compression
                                  >ratio, bore diameter, stroke, muff support, rpm, BMEP,
                                  >cooling method, whether there are holes in the liner
                                  >as in an, ahem, 2 stroke and liner material. If your
                                  >liner is obviously iron but is of reduced magnetic
                                  >property than most iron or steel, it could easily be
                                  >of high Austenite content as are original BSA Goldstar
                                  >liners which are indeed stout or it could have a high
                                  >nickle content which helps toughness. Meehanite
                                  >http://www.meehanite.com/ is good liner material
                                  >because it is temperature stable and fine grained but
                                  >most cylinder liner grades aren't very strong.
                                  >Additionally, even some cylinders from otherwise
                                  >identical engines perform markedly better than others.
                                  > A friend who is a former AMA National Champion and
                                  >world class developer had one set of favorite
                                  >cylinders which would consistently out perform all his
                                  >other sets. C'est la vie.
                                  >
                                  >Ken A
                                  >
                                  >
                                • Marin California
                                  ... ====================================================== Greg, I may be able to make some suggestions but I have some questions before I can proceed.
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Feb 4, 2005
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                                    --- Greg Summerton <gregss@...> wrote:

                                    > Dave, I sure do 'tune in' to Ken's opinions ...and
                                    > several others on
                                    > this wonderful list.

                                    ======================================================

                                    Greg,

                                    I may be able to make some suggestions but I
                                    have some questions before I can proceed. First, are
                                    you running what in the USA, used to be called Vintage
                                    500cc Premier Class road racing and are the Matchless
                                    G-50 and 95mm bore, Manx new reproduction engines with
                                    revised engine geometry legal in your area ? Second,
                                    what vehicle are you racing, what has been done to
                                    modify it, how does it run, where is it lacking, what
                                    would you like and when would you like it ?
                                    I built the top end parts for John Cronshaw's BSA
                                    and know that merely a bit of material change is not
                                    going to make any otherwise stock vintage bike
                                    competetive in the World Championship classes that
                                    John contests. Additionally, you must be aware that
                                    any number of twin, triple and quadruple cylinder
                                    entries are legal in at least some of the series
                                    events and they are going to be very difficult to beat
                                    without a ton of work and several long tons of money
                                    even with a late model fully developed and dedicated
                                    machine.
                                    As far as your cylinder and cylinder seal go,
                                    there are any number of specialized procedures that I
                                    normally utilize and operations performed to optimize
                                    what you now have and that ignores making new parts
                                    which may be necessary. These things are beyond the
                                    scope of this forum and I can can help you if you want
                                    but you should call or write to my regular e_mailer so
                                    I can include attachments. My contact information is
                                    included below. Good luck and good racing.

                                    Ken Augustine
                                    Kinetic Analysis / Cryo Tek
                                    53 Mark Dr San Rafael CA 94903
                                    415 472 4952 h, w & fax
                                    kineticanalysis@... / ken@...

                                    ======================================================

                                    Dave, I sure do 'tune in' to Ken's opinions ...and
                                    several others on
                                    this wonderful list.

                                    I just checked the mag properties of all the liners I
                                    have in the
                                    workshop and found all are reasonably attracted to my
                                    old powerful
                                    speaker magnet, except the ESO/Jawa 2 valve speedway
                                    liners and my 1949
                                    and 1952 OHC Jawa twin 500 liners.
                                    I have an LA Sleeve Co liner for an old Yam 500 big
                                    bore and it is
                                    magnetic and so are all the Japanese bike liners. I
                                    don't have a Goldie
                                    liner in the place at the mo'.

                                    I'd never thought much about liner materials before.
                                    Only the speedway
                                    ESO/Jawa items because of their seemingly brilliant
                                    low wear (I guess
                                    they need something tough to withstand the dirt
                                    ingested in the days
                                    when speedway and dirt track machine air 'filters'
                                    consisted of a
                                    stocking over the bellmouth!)

                                    Back in the late 70s when I put my TT500 Yam on 14:1
                                    for dirt track I
                                    had probs blowing the large surface area copper head
                                    gasket till I
                                    borrowed the copper o-ring idea from the drag racing
                                    guys, worked a
                                    treat.I would turn a 40 thou wide, 30 thou deep groove
                                    in the top
                                    surface of the liner boss where I put a 40 thou piece
                                    of copper to from
                                    a good 'o-ring' seal to the head gasket.
                                    Easy to do to the Yam liner but really tough on a ESO
                                    or Jawa (same
                                    thing) speedway liner.


                                    Interesting, because prior to 1965 ESO speedway
                                    engines were not
                                    connected with Jawa. Later on the 'government' decided
                                    that when the ESO
                                    showed promise on the world speedway stage that they
                                    would sell em
                                    badged as Jawa rather than set up new dealerships etc.
                                    I'd never thought of checking my older OHC Jawa twins.
                                    They were built
                                    before ESO designed and built the 2 valve speedway
                                    engine in 1953.
                                    It seems that the same tough liner material as a
                                    Czechs thing and not
                                    just a Jawa thing.

                                    Anyhow, my main interest in this subject is what
                                    material could I use
                                    for a new larger diam liner 2mm thick to replace the
                                    old one?
                                    I realise the material is important and I've proven
                                    that the existing
                                    material works at 2mm.
                                    Why do I want to do this?
                                    I just returned my 1962 ESO-engined Norton to Historic
                                    road racing at
                                    Australia's Phillip Island last weekend, after a 13
                                    year absence.
                                    Boy! Those 'new' G50s and Manxes are FAST!

                                    13 years ago I was lapping fast enough to get seconds
                                    against the best
                                    in the country. Those lap times do not cut it anymore.
                                    We have a big field of NZ and English guys at this
                                    event and a heap of
                                    the later fast newly built Nortons and Matchlesses.

                                    I need more speed.
                                    I know I cannot match them but I can get closer for
                                    sure. I need to
                                    build the biggest bore into it that I can. I'll bore
                                    the liner and cases
                                    and stretch it as far as the holding down bolts will
                                    allow and go for
                                    the squish and better combustion space I achieved on
                                    the overbored
                                    sidecar ESO engine I built years ago, and I'll make
                                    new wheels to suit
                                    the bore to keep it at 500.
                                    But I need a larger OD liner and from what I've
                                    'learnt' about liner
                                    thicknesses and materials so far....I'd better make
                                    the right choice.

                                    Any suggestions?
                                    Greg

                                    >Message: 1
                                    > Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 11:45:34 -0800 (PST)
                                    > From: Marin California <marinca555@...>
                                    >Subject: Re: cast iron liner thickness??
                                    >
                                    >Guys,
                                    > There are more variables to this than just liner
                                    >wall thickness, including rod ratio, compression
                                    >ratio, bore diameter, stroke, muff support, rpm,
                                    BMEP,
                                    >cooling method, whether there are holes in the liner
                                    >as in an, ahem, 2 stroke and liner material. If
                                    your
                                    >liner is obviously iron but is of reduced magnetic
                                    >property than most iron or steel, it could easily be
                                    >of high Austenite content as are original BSA
                                    Goldstar
                                    >liners which are indeed stout or it could have a high
                                    >nickle content which helps toughness. Meehanite
                                    >http://www.meehanite.com/ is good liner material
                                    >because it is temperature stable and fine grained but
                                    >most cylinder liner grades aren't very strong.
                                    >Additionally, even some cylinders from otherwise
                                    >identical engines perform markedly better than
                                    others.
                                    > A friend who is a former AMA National Champion and
                                    >world class developer had one set of favorite
                                    >cylinders which would consistently out perform all
                                    his
                                    >other sets. C'est la vie.
                                    >
                                    >Ken A



                                    =====




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                                  • Ian
                                    ... That s interesting, the first model R6 Yamaha Monoblock motors have cast in liners that are non-magnetic. It appears to be some sort of stainless steel,
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Feb 7, 2005
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                                      > I just checked the mag properties of all the liners I have in the
                                      > workshop and found all are reasonably attracted to my old powerful
                                      > speaker magnet, except the ESO/Jawa 2 valve speedway liners and my 1949
                                      > and 1952 OHC Jawa twin 500 liners.

                                      That's interesting, the first model R6 Yamaha "Monoblock" motors
                                      have cast in liners that are non-magnetic. It appears to be some
                                      sort of stainless steel, I doubt it is anything more exotic. BTW - it's
                                      about 2.2 mm thick. ( with lumps on outside to key to casting )

                                      Honda do a similar thing with their Blackbird motors ( & older
                                      Fireblade ) but with cast iron at 2.8 mm thick. It is surprising how
                                      far out of true position these liners are too. The English importer
                                      bored them out 2 mm as an answer to the 'Busa, the pistons must
                                      have been close to rubbing aluminium in spots.


                                      Cheers IAN


                                      --
                                      DRYSDALE MOTORCYCLE CO.
                                      AUSTRALIA
                                      PH: +613 9562 4260
                                      FAX: +613 9546 8938
                                      NEW WEBSITE:
                                      750-V8 & 1000-V8 MOTORCYCLES,
                                      2X2X2, RACECAR & CARBERRY-ENFIELD
                                      V-TWIN SITE :
                                      http://www.drysdalev8.com
                                    • Greg Summerton
                                      I have to admit I am rather ignorant about cast iron, I ll have to get out the old text books and see what I either have forgotten....or never knew! In my
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Feb 7, 2005
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                                        I have to admit I am rather ignorant about cast iron, I'll have to get
                                        out the old text books and see what I either have forgotten....or never
                                        knew!
                                        In my youthful ignorance I'd always thought I could recognise cast iron
                                        by appearance or machinability well enough, but as I got older (and
                                        learnt more?) I realised that there is a mystery (to me anyway) in cast
                                        iron.
                                        I'd thought that sleeves were always cast iron and that 'cast iron was
                                        just cast iron'.... but over the years I'd noticed some are much more
                                        like steel in appearance and machinability.
                                        Other than the difference of close grain varietys I'd never taken the
                                        time to find out what the 'mystery' was all about, maybe it is time to
                                        solve it.
                                        So, I'll get the old books out.

                                        However, what can people tell me (us?) about liner materials that
                                        manufacturers use?
                                        Last night I heard that GMH (GM in Australia) heat treat their liners in
                                        one of their motors.........I'd love to know why.

                                        My guess is that an 'ideal' liner is one that will:
                                        Provide good heat transferrance from the piston
                                        Provide a low friction surface
                                        Expand at a similar rate as the piston with heat
                                        Wear in sufficiently quick enough in concert with rings to provide good
                                        sealing but last a long time in service
                                        Provide a compatible surface for the piston as regards wear
                                        Not distort with heat

                                        What else?
                                        It seems that different manufacturers have different priorities with
                                        some of the above factors and use different materials.
                                        One of these considerations for ESO/Jawa with their speedway engines
                                        might have been to provide a liner that does not wear too quickly with
                                        the ingested dirt because air filters were not common in the earlier
                                        days. They might have figured it was better to wear out pistons more
                                        quickly because they were more readily replaced and that would suit the
                                        type of competition environment that was speedway.

                                        However, if the hardness and toughness of the liner (presumably
                                        austenitic?) follows the low magnetic properties then the manufacturers
                                        and models that Ian has found consider the tough liners to be more
                                        desirable for this or some other factor?

                                        Any ideas anyone?
                                        Greg
                                        PS Damn this! I'll be away for several days and wont be able to follow
                                        the thread ...it is never the same reading the digest 'after the event'!!!!


                                        >That's interesting, the first model R6 Yamaha "Monoblock" motors
                                        >have cast in liners that are non-magnetic. It appears to be some
                                        >sort of stainless steel, I doubt it is anything more exotic. BTW - it's
                                        >about 2.2 mm thick. ( with lumps on outside to key to casting )
                                        >
                                        >Honda do a similar thing with their Blackbird motors ( & older
                                        >Fireblade ) but with cast iron at 2.8 mm thick. It is surprising how
                                        >far out of true position these liners are too. The English importer
                                        >bored them out 2 mm as an answer to the 'Busa, the pistons must
                                        >have been close to rubbing aluminium in spots.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >Cheers IAN
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                      • Ian
                                        ... Steel can also be cast, so the cast iron that is machining like steel is possibly steel. Grey cast iron machines virtually into powder. ( Hardly any
                                        Message 19 of 21 , Feb 8, 2005
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                                          > I'd thought that sleeves were always cast iron and that 'cast iron was
                                          > just cast iron'.... but over the years I'd noticed some are much more
                                          > like steel in appearance and machinability.

                                          Steel can also be cast, so the "cast iron" that is machining like steel
                                          is possibly steel. Grey cast iron machines virtually into powder.
                                          ( Hardly any "chip" ) SG cast iron is much tougher and produces a
                                          chip about half way between steel & grey CI.


                                          > However, what can people tell me (us?) about liner materials that
                                          > manufacturers use?

                                          You can use just about any metal, Briggs & Stration run pistons straight
                                          into alloy bores in one of their series of motors, I don't know what ( if any )
                                          coating they used but the motors were woefully unreliable.

                                          My friends who make the 7 ( soon 9 too ) cylinder Rotec radial engines
                                          use a high tensile steel ( 4140 or similar ? ) with no problems. Cast iron
                                          is the preferred material as it is excellent to machine dry and liberates
                                          graphite as it wears. ( Why it machines so well too ) The only downside
                                          is that it is heavy.


                                          > Last night I heard that GMH (GM in Australia) heat treat their liners in
                                          > one of their motors.........I'd love to know why.

                                          I didn't know that Holden was HT'ing liners, but lathes and mills have flame
                                          hardened cast iron bedways, so it can be HT'd quite well. I assume that
                                          they are trying to improve bore wear, possibly to compensate for the lack
                                          of lead in fuel these days.


                                          Cheers IAN


                                          --
                                          DRYSDALE MOTORCYCLE CO.
                                          AUSTRALIA
                                          PH: +613 9562 4260
                                          FAX: +613 9546 8938
                                          NEW WEBSITE:
                                          750-V8 & 1000-V8 MOTORCYCLES,
                                          2X2X2, RACECAR & CARBERRY-ENFIELD
                                          V-TWIN SITE :
                                          http://www.drysdalev8.com
                                        • djtcz@comcast.net
                                          At least as of a few years ago the Isuzu/GM/DuraMax 6.6 had induction hardened nuggets all over the cylinder bore. On the original tooling drawings the
                                          Message 20 of 21 , Feb 13, 2005
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                                            At least as of a few years ago the Isuzu/GM/DuraMax 6.6 had induction hardened nuggets all over the cylinder bore.  On the original tooling drawings the material was described as some relatively normal cast iron, but the guys that worked on the line felt the folks in Japan who provided the castings were using a secret recipe.  It was terribly difficult to maintain roughing and finishing boring tolerances, for which they blamed the spindle maker, but a third party more-or-less-proved the un-stress relieved block was the main problem.   
                                             
                                            Here they curiously describe the block hardening as good for NVH, rather than durability.
                                             
                                            -------------- Original message --------------

                                            > However, what can people tell me (us?) about liner materials that
                                            > manufacturers use?
                                            > Last night I heard that GMH (GM in Australia) heat treat their liners in
                                            > one of their motors.........I'd love to know why.
                                            >
                                            > My guess is that an 'ideal' liner is one that will:
                                            > Provide good heat transferrance from the piston
                                            > Provide a low friction surface
                                            > Expand at a similar rate as the piston with heat
                                            > Wear in sufficiently quick enough in concert with rings to provide good
                                            > sealing but last a long time in service
                                            > Provide a compatible surface for the piston as regards wear
                                            > Not distort with heat
                                            >
                                            > What else?
                                            > It seems that different manufacturers have different priorities with
                                            > some of the above factors and use different materials.
                                          • unSHOCKable
                                            ... Kewl page. Thanks for that. Got me to thinking though (and yes, I know I m going off-topic here): I wonder how hard it would be to retrofit an older GM car
                                            Message 21 of 21 , Feb 13, 2005
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                                              djtcz@... wrote:

                                              > At least as of a few years ago the Isuzu/GM/DuraMax 6.6 had induction
                                              > hardened nuggets all over the cylinder bore. On the original tooling
                                              > drawings the material was described as some relatively normal cast
                                              > iron, but the guys that worked on the line felt the folks in Japan
                                              > who provided the castings were using a secret recipe. It was terribly
                                              > difficult to maintain roughing and finishing boring tolerances, for
                                              > which they blamed the spindle maker, but a third party
                                              > more-or-less-proved the un-stress relieved block was the main problem.
                                              >
                                              > Here they curiously describe the block hardening as good for NVH,
                                              > rather than durability.
                                              > http://www.duramaxdiesel.com/01_features/sub05.htm

                                              Kewl page. Thanks for that. Got me to thinking though (and yes, I know
                                              I'm going off-topic here): I wonder how hard it would be to retrofit an
                                              older GM car (like, say, a '73 Toronado) with a Duramax.....
                                              Anyone here know where I can find external dimension info on the
                                              Duramax? Maybe even a comparo between it and a GM big block from a
                                              "packaging" perspective....

                                              Sorry to go so far off-topic but I've always thought diesels were neat
                                              and that page got me thinking about the Duramax as a retrofit option.
                                              Anyway, back to the original thread....

                                              ~~Shock~~
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