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Re: White Ti and Tails...

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  • Ian
    ... Ti conrods are used in lots of high end engines - they require good dim. stability and about the same temperatures. ... The brass / bronze will have a
    Message 1 of 8 , Dec 1, 2004
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      > Might I bother the group for some down-to-earth information on Titanium?
      > 1) DIMENSIONAL STABILITY:
      > How dimensionally stable is Ti?

      Ti conrods are used in lots of high end engines - they require
      good dim. stability and about the same temperatures.


      > 2) SAVING OUR ENDANGERED SEALS:
      > With the half-a-thou-per-side fit, if I stay within the given temp
      > range, will the Ti rotor remain stable enough to keep the seal? I think
      > the cylinder in which it will rotate will be brass or bronze.

      The brass / bronze will have a higher expansion rate.


      > 3) CUTTING REMARKS:
      > How "machineable" is Ti? If a machinist is already good with brass and
      > aluminum, what kind of learning curve is required to get Ti to do his
      > bidding?

      Quite similar to phosphorous bronze to machine.

      > 4) SAFETY:
      > What does one need to know to safely work with Ti?

      Nothing special - it's pretty inert - they use it for joint
      replacements in humans.


      > 5) TOOLING:
      > What kind of tools and/or tooling would be required for a GOOD machinist
      > with a brass/aluminum/steel background to be successful making my valve
      > parts?

      Should be fine.


      > 6) A CAST OF THOUSANDS:
      > I feel silly asking, but can this stuff be cast? ...or is machining the
      > only route?

      Not easily & yes.


      > 7) EXPENSE:
      > What does the stuff cost? To start, I'd need a "stick" of Ti, about
      > 8-inches tall and about 1-inch diameter. Will this be $100 (US), or
      > $10,000?

      Closer to US$100 than $10k.


      > Please tell me what you think I'd need to know about Ti and the
      > handling/machining of it to get started on this project.

      Ti doesn't like to rub against itself ( i.e. - as conrods in a vee engine )
      Silver plating is used to solve this problem.

      Ti can't be hardened to the same degree as steel - TiNite coatings
      ( and similar ) are the way to go if you need a hard surface.


      Cheers IAN


      --
      DRYSDALE MOTORCYCLE CO.
      AUSTRALIA
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    • geoo lutwigg
      I had an interesting conversation with a rep from Timet, he said honda has somehow developed a heat treat of sorts for their Ti valves everyone else is using a
      Message 2 of 8 , Dec 4, 2004
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        I had an interesting conversation with a rep from
        Timet, he said honda has somehow developed a heat
        treat of sorts for their Ti valves everyone else is
        using a ceramic coat.
        >
        > If you recognize galling problems in your
        > application, you can try to ask a
        > titanium-valve manufactor what coatings they use. Ti
        > has extemely bad
        > tribological properties...
        >
        > Gruss
        > Hans
        > Munich/Germany
        >
        >




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      • Ray and Sonja Crenshaw
        Thanks guys, for all the Ti information and websites. From what you re telling me, the project sounds, with some study and preparation, imminently do-able.
        Message 3 of 8 , Dec 5, 2004
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          Thanks guys, for all the Ti information and websites. From what you're
          telling me, the project sounds, with some study and preparation,
          imminently do-able. Since you've gotten me this far, let me ask about
          the valve body material.

          If I make the rotor from Ti (low speed & VERY moderate temps) what
          material should I consider for the valve body? Ian says the brass/bronze
          valve body would expand faster than the Ti rotor (understandable) so
          what considerations should I make between this (possibly slight?)
          thermal expansion mismatch and ease of machining? I can easily have a
          brass valve body machined and my probable go-to guy is already familiar
          with it.

          As far as that goes, what recommendations do you have for choosing
          between brass and bronze?

          The valve body is essentially a cylinder with pipes soldered (if brass)
          into holes in the body, similar to 2-stroke ports. The valve will turn
          about 90-degrees to line up the exit port paths differently with each
          cyclical 1/4 turn.

          Thanks again,

          jrc in SC

          PS: I went to one Ti website that had about 20 (separate) pages of
          articles covering Ti and all its properties, qualities, weight,
          handling/machining procedures, etc. I captured all these as standalone
          files, named them according to their content, and organized a small
          index page, all running OFFLINE in my browser. Zipped, the whole thing
          is about 600k in size. If anyone wants it, blast me an e-mail and I'll
          send it out. Neat little resource, and the kind we used to pay $50 for!
          ~r
        • geoo lutwigg
          the dec. issue of racecar engineering has info on some of the newer Ti alloys. geo. ... __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Easier
          Message 4 of 8 , Dec 5, 2004
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            the dec. issue of racecar engineering has info on some
            of the newer Ti alloys.
            geo.
            --- Ray and Sonja Crenshaw <raymanz93@...>
            wrote:

            > Thanks guys, for all the Ti information and
            > websites. From what you're
            > telling me, the project sounds, with some study and
            > preparation,
            > imminently do-able. Since you've gotten me this far,
            > let me ask about
            > the valve body material.
            >
            > If I make the rotor from Ti (low speed & VERY
            > moderate temps) what
            > material should I consider for the valve body? Ian
            > says the brass/bronze
            > valve body would expand faster than the Ti rotor
            > (understandable) so
            > what considerations should I make between this
            > (possibly slight?)
            > thermal expansion mismatch and ease of machining? I
            > can easily have a
            > brass valve body machined and my probable go-to guy
            > is already familiar
            > with it.
            >
            > As far as that goes, what recommendations do you
            > have for choosing
            > between brass and bronze?
            >
            > The valve body is essentially a cylinder with pipes
            > soldered (if brass)
            > into holes in the body, similar to 2-stroke ports.
            > The valve will turn
            > about 90-degrees to line up the exit port paths
            > differently with each
            > cyclical 1/4 turn.
            >
            > Thanks again,
            >
            > jrc in SC
            >
            > PS: I went to one Ti website that had about 20
            > (separate) pages of
            > articles covering Ti and all its properties,
            > qualities, weight,
            > handling/machining procedures, etc. I captured all
            > these as standalone
            > files, named them according to their content, and
            > organized a small
            > index page, all running OFFLINE in my browser.
            > Zipped, the whole thing
            > is about 600k in size. If anyone wants it, blast me
            > an e-mail and I'll
            > send it out. Neat little resource, and the kind we
            > used to pay $50 for!
            > ~r
            >
            >




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          • Dan Timberlake
            ... if the operating conditions are moderate, I m wondering why the interest in titanium? If the valve is handling a medium with no lubricating qualities I d
            Message 5 of 8 , Dec 6, 2004
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              --- In mc-engine@yahoogroups.com, "Ray and Sonja Crenshaw"
              <raymanz93@g...> wrote:
              >
              > If I make the rotor from Ti (low speed & VERY moderate temps) >

              if the operating conditions are moderate, I'm wondering why the
              interest in titanium?

              If the valve is handling a medium with no lubricating qualities I'd
              be looking hard at materials that are meant to run dry (plastics and
              metal/plastic composites).


              > As far as that goes, what recommendations do you have for choosing
              > between brass and bronze?
              >
              Some bronzes have many percent lead content, which can >>help<<
              survival in times of poor lubrication. Some of The stronger, harder
              bronzes MUST be well lubricated to avoid galling and seizure. Brass
              is pretty until it gets old and green.
            • Ray and Sonja Crenshaw
              ... One is weight. There will be four of these valve assemblies. The other is the cool whiz-bang effect of my getting to work with Ti! However, you ... I am
              Message 6 of 8 , Dec 6, 2004
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                > if the operating conditions are moderate, I'm
                > wondering why the interest in titanium?

                One is weight. There will be four of these valve assemblies. The other
                is the cool whiz-bang effect of my getting to work with Ti! However, you
                pique my curiosity with this next part:


                > If the valve is handling a medium with no lubricating qualities I'd
                > be looking hard at materials that are meant to run dry (plastics and
                > metal/plastic composites)

                I am completely out of my element here, but I'm very interested. With
                1/2 a thousandths-inch clearance, dimensional stability is just as
                important as weight, and "machineability" is next most important.

                Point me towards the right material and I'll look into it. If it's
                lighter than brass, I'm interested.

                Thanks, this is neat getting all these tips and ideas from "the field."

                jrc
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