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Re: Fuel Additives

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  • Leonard Pattenden
    ... it might upset the emissions on a road bike, taking them way out of the legal spec (the oxygenates being there to reduce reactivity of the hydrocarbon
    Message 1 of 26 , Sep 1, 2003
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      --- mkiltyuk <mkilty@...> wrote:
      > But what does it *mean* to the average punter - the
      > gratuitous addition of Xylene - my first thought was that
      it might upset the emissions on a road bike, taking them
      way out of the legal spec (the oxygenates being there to
      reduce 'reactivity' of the hydrocarbon products, and
      boosting the HC content though giving performance will
      > upset the balance - if I read it right!).

      Hi Mike, yeah that's one thing, but the emission will be
      more carbon monoxide and less carbon dioxide and water -
      hey it's certainly not as bad as jet aircraft producing
      reactive nitrous oxides that eat the ozone layer. Just be
      careful with xylene etc... in terms of the toxicity, it
      should all get chewed up in the combustion chamber (more or
      less) but that stuff is carcinogenic in the parts per
      million, so handling and inhaling it is a bit dangerous
      (what I meant).

      In terms of being detected by the emissions Police, it
      would just read as an engine out of tune (over here) -
      they're mainly looking for lead in Oz, but you Euro guys
      have some full-on emission laws.

      Interesting you mention Optimax too. Optimax can be a mixed
      bag here in Oz if you haven't tuned the engine to it, but
      for two-strokes I have a theory that the oil and the
      "detergents" of Optimax form an improper micelle before
      entering the combustion chamber and I've been curious to
      play with exhaust tuning and Optimax with a two-stroke, but
      I sold my experiment bike (a bucket). What's your oil and
      mixture ratio?

      Len...




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    • mkiltyuk
      ... yes, point taken thanks, it is also narcotic so will make you giddy or knock you senseless depending on exposure ... Actually I meant the racing
      Message 2 of 26 , Sep 1, 2003
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        > in terms of the toxicity, it
        > should all get chewed up in the combustion chamber (more or
        > less) but that stuff is carcinogenic in the parts per
        > million, so handling and inhaling it is a bit dangerous
        > (what I meant).

        yes, point taken thanks, it is also narcotic so will make you giddy
        or knock you senseless depending on exposure

        > In terms of being detected by the emissions Police, it
        > would just read as an engine out of tune (over here) -
        > they're mainly looking for lead in Oz, but you Euro guys
        > have some full-on emission laws.

        Actually I meant the racing scrutineers - I wondered if anyone had
        experience of the type of test they might do, eg is it just an octane
        test or do they analyse the fuel chemically? The octane test should
        just show a slightly high reading, hopefully within the regulation
        allowance, but a full analysis would probably get me thrown out of
        the meeting (excess Xylene for a 'pump' fuel)!

        > Interesting you mention Optimax too. Optimax can be a mixed
        > bag here in Oz if you haven't tuned the engine to it .. (snip)
        .. What's your oil and
        > mixture ratio?
        >

        I use 20:1 with Castrol R. I 'consulted' on about 6 plug chops this
        weekend, most of them on motors running 33:1 with Silkolene Pro 2 and
        the like but all with Optimax and it seems to give 'clean' readings
        with good definition down at the bottom of the insulator, on a new
        plug. It is a waste of time reading an old plug, not sure if this is
        any different with any other fuel but I've only recently got the hang
        of doing this accurately (since I bought an Auroscope - thing for
        looking in ear 'oles)

        What do you think might be the effect of what you suspect (re
        miscibility)?


        Mike Kilty
      • Mario Ricciardiello
        I really worry about the Premium Unleaded fuels here in Oz. Recently I had the insides of a fuel connector fall out after a short period of exposure to this
        Message 3 of 26 , Sep 1, 2003
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          I really worry about the Premium Unleaded fuels here in Oz. Recently I had
          the insides of a fuel connector fall out after a short period of exposure to
          this fuel. The importer told me I wasn't the first to have this happen to
          them, as the internals of the connector are held in place with rubber rings
          which swell and lose their grip. Then I thought about all the guys out
          there on their Ducatis, which have these connectors as fitting standard.
          You can imagine a leak on the high pressure line, hot exhausts...Has anybody
          heard of this being a problem? I decided to try a little experiment, by
          dropping the standard O'ring as well as a Viton one in some fuel. The
          standard one swelled up in size from 11.1mm to 13.2mm in Dia, and from 1.7mm
          to 2.4mm in section. The Viton O'ring was not affected

          -----Original Message-----
          From: Leonard Pattenden [mailto:len_pattenden@...]
          Sent: Monday, September 01, 2003 6:11 PM
          To: mc-engine@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: Fuel Additives


          --- mkiltyuk <mkilty@...> wrote:
          > But what does it *mean* to the average punter - the
          > gratuitous addition of Xylene - my first thought was that
          it might upset the emissions on a road bike, taking them
          way out of the legal spec (the oxygenates being there to
          reduce 'reactivity' of the hydrocarbon products, and
          boosting the HC content though giving performance will
          > upset the balance - if I read it right!).

          Hi Mike, yeah that's one thing, but the emission will be
          more carbon monoxide and less carbon dioxide and water -
          hey it's certainly not as bad as jet aircraft producing
          reactive nitrous oxides that eat the ozone layer. Just be
          careful with xylene etc... in terms of the toxicity, it
          should all get chewed up in the combustion chamber (more or
          less) but that stuff is carcinogenic in the parts per
          million, so handling and inhaling it is a bit dangerous
          (what I meant).

          In terms of being detected by the emissions Police, it
          would just read as an engine out of tune (over here) -
          they're mainly looking for lead in Oz, but you Euro guys
          have some full-on emission laws.

          Interesting you mention Optimax too. Optimax can be a mixed
          bag here in Oz if you haven't tuned the engine to it, but
          for two-strokes I have a theory that the oil and the
          "detergents" of Optimax form an improper micelle before
          entering the combustion chamber and I've been curious to
          play with exhaust tuning and Optimax with a two-stroke, but
          I sold my experiment bike (a bucket). What's your oil and
          mixture ratio?

          Len...




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        • Leonard Pattenden
          Hi Mike; Dunno about there, but here the scrutineers just look at the colour of your fuel and ensure it isn t blue (100 octane) ... with Silkolene Pro 2 and
          Message 4 of 26 , Sep 1, 2003
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            Hi Mike;

            Dunno about there, but here the scrutineers just look at
            the colour of your fuel and ensure it isn't blue (100
            octane)

            > I use 20:1 with Castrol R. I 'consulted' on about 6 plug
            > chops this weekend, most of them on motors running 33:1
            with Silkolene Pro 2 and the like but all with Optimax and
            it seems to give 'clean' readings with good definition down
            at the bottom of the insulator, on a new plug. It is a
            waste of time reading an old plug, not sure if this is
            > any different with any other fuel but I've only recently
            > got the hang of doing this accurately (since I bought an
            Auroscope - thing for looking in ear 'oles)
            >

            I have problems reading plugs with any fuel that doesn't
            contain lead - I find it hard to tell the differences from
            self-destruct to 20:1, and I get the impression you're like
            me with it. At Winton in Victoria I turned a plug green I
            had leaned the jetting so far out... My thought is the
            detergents in Optimax may cause the oil to improperly mix
            with the fuel which could cause either a lean or rich state
            depending on the ratio but this might be able to tuned
            through the exhaust - just curious to gather info at this
            stage till I can get my hands on a 2-stroke for
            experimenting.

            Len...


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          • Leonard Pattenden
            Hi Mario; It might interest you - I experimented with Optimax in my EB Falcon, 10,000ks later my fuel pump packed in and the car has an idle problem. I wonder
            Message 5 of 26 , Sep 1, 2003
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              Hi Mario;

              It might interest you - I experimented with Optimax in my
              EB Falcon, 10,000ks later my fuel pump packed in and the
              car has an idle problem. I wonder if the fine carbon
              deposits in the engine, which form a nice lubrication,
              should be left alone.

              Len...


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            • Mario Ricciardiello
              When I had this problem with my connector, I had a long discussion with the guy from Italian/Australian Imports who brings these in. He is aware of this Fuel
              Message 6 of 26 , Sep 1, 2003
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                When I had this problem with my connector, I had a long discussion with the
                guy from Italian/Australian Imports who brings these in. He is aware of
                this Fuel being a big problem. Not only for what it does to rubber in the
                system, but the fuel density of Optimax was making some Ducatis and Aprilias
                foul up like two strokes.

                -----Original Message-----
                From: Leonard Pattenden [mailto:len_pattenden@...]
                Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2003 11:55 AM
                To: mc-engine@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: RE: Fuel Additives



                Hi Mario;

                It might interest you - I experimented with Optimax in my
                EB Falcon, 10,000ks later my fuel pump packed in and the
                car has an idle problem. I wonder if the fine carbon
                deposits in the engine, which form a nice lubrication,
                should be left alone.

                Len...


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              • Ernest Buckler
                Mario, I really do hate to say this, but it sure sounds like a bunch of hookah hokum to me; Shell wouldn t put out a premium gasoline that damaged
                Message 7 of 26 , Sep 1, 2003
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                  Mario,
                  I really do hate to say this, but it sure sounds like a bunch of hookah
                  hokum to me; Shell wouldn't put out a premium gasoline that damaged
                  hi-performance engines; in fact such a fuel would have been produced
                  expressly FOR such engines!

                  I remember this discussion of quick release fuel connectors several months
                  ago, the connectors were orginally not specified for fuel use, for water and
                  air as I recall. Hence the O-ring problem. It may look the same as
                  Ducati's piece but I'd bet Ducati is using Viton or better, o-rings.

                  If not, then somebody had better get on the phone to the factory post haste!
                  and let them know about this pending catastrophe when their machines run
                  Shell 98 octane Optimax fuel...!

                  Ernest B.




                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Mario Ricciardiello" <Mario.Ricciardiello2@...>
                  To: <mc-engine@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Monday, September 01, 2003 7:15 PM
                  Subject: RE: Fuel Additives


                  When I had this problem with my connector, I had a long discussion with the
                  guy from Italian/Australian Imports who brings these in. He is aware of
                  this Fuel being a big problem. Not only for what it does to rubber in the
                  system, but the fuel density of Optimax was making some Ducatis and Aprilias
                  foul up like two strokes.

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Leonard Pattenden [mailto:len_pattenden@...]
                  Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2003 11:55 AM
                  To: mc-engine@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: RE: Fuel Additives



                  Hi Mario;

                  It might interest you - I experimented with Optimax in my
                  EB Falcon, 10,000ks later my fuel pump packed in and the
                  car has an idle problem. I wonder if the fine carbon
                  deposits in the engine, which form a nice lubrication,
                  should be left alone.

                  Len...


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                  unsubscribe: mailto:mc-engine-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

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                • Ian
                  ... This topic came up on another list - I ll reiterate my opinion - Shell Optimax is cr*p. This stuff nearly drove me around the twist when I was first
                  Message 8 of 26 , Sep 1, 2003
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                    > I really do hate to say this, but it sure sounds like a bunch of hookah
                    > hokum to me; Shell wouldn't put out a premium gasoline that damaged
                    > hi-performance engines;

                    This topic came up on another list - I'll reiterate my opinion -
                    Shell Optimax is cr*p. This stuff nearly drove me around the twist
                    when I was first setting up the MoTec injection on my 750-V8.
                    The symptoms were not those you'd usually associate with fuel -
                    the motor ran perfectly but got harder and harder to start - then
                    began missing and backfiring like the igntion was way out.

                    The problem seems to that Optimax doesn't like to run in "cold"
                    cylinders and small capacity water cooled cylinders run too cold
                    at idle. ( High surface to volume ratio ) The plugs just get "poisoned"
                    and no amount of hand cleaning will recover proper operation. I
                    even tried super expensive Iridium plugs - same result. Switched
                    to BP Premium and problem solved.

                    This is well known in the bike racing community here - nobody
                    uses it - not even those sponsored by Shell.


                    Cheers IAN



                    --
                    DRYSDALE MOTORCYCLE CO.
                    AUSTRALIA
                    PH: +613 9562 4260
                    FAX: +613 9546 8938
                    GP PROJECT SITE:
                    http://www.22000rpm.com
                    750-V8 & 1000-V8 MOTORCYCLES,
                    2X2X2 & RACECAR SITE :
                    http://home.mira.net/~iwd
                  • John Wood
                    In message , Ian writes ... In the 1980 s Shell put out a fuel with mileage ingredient That had a number of
                    Message 9 of 26 , Sep 2, 2003
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                      In message <3F54355A.ED2A8EA9@...>, Ian <iwd@...> writes
                      >> I really do hate to say this, but it sure sounds like a bunch of hookah
                      >> hokum to me; Shell wouldn't put out a premium gasoline that damaged
                      >> hi-performance engines;
                      >
                      >This topic came up on another list - I'll reiterate my opinion -
                      >Shell Optimax is cr*p. This stuff nearly drove me around the twist
                      >when I was first setting up the MoTec injection on my 750-V8.
                      >The symptoms were not those you'd usually associate with fuel -
                      >the motor ran perfectly but got harder and harder to start - then
                      >began missing and backfiring like the igntion was way out.

                      In the 1980's Shell put out a fuel with "mileage ingredient"
                      That had a number of problems and there were a number of law suits

                      In the early 1970's Castrol put out a multigrade oil , XL I think it
                      was, and I knew several who blew motors using it whereas the motors were
                      good for several years previously in other oils

                      and I think that there are many more to add to the list

                      1988 and Shell reformulated the petrol in the UK during August/September
                      and many Classic racers had engine problems

                      proving it in a court of law is difficult
                      knowing that it is true is something else

                      John Wood Birmingham UK
                      UK Vintage Motorcycle Racing - Greeves & Velocette
                      SRX600 Thumper
                      www.lortim.demon.co.uk -> Villiers Improvements Handbook
                    • Dave Williams
                      ... I don t either... but depending on the engine s combustion chamber layout and other characteristics, fuel economy can change dramatically with spark
                      Message 10 of 26 , Sep 2, 2003
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                        kastanis wrote:

                        > However, I kind of doubt that the O2 sensor richening the mixture in the presence of > oxygenates could account for the huge fuel economy differences reported.

                        I don't either... but depending on the engine's combustion chamber
                        layout and other characteristics, fuel economy can change dramatically
                        with spark advance. Though there's a theoretical point where more
                        advance is detrimental, it's well beyond what you can get with
                        real-world pump gas. Many OEMs program their engine management systems
                        to continually "hunt" for the knock limited advance point by steadily
                        advancing the spark until the engine pings, then backing off.

                        I've owned a couple of vehicles which, due to this, got better mileage
                        on premium fuel than on regular, though not enough to make up for the
                        difference in price. It also depended on the particular brands of gas
                        being used; brands which depended on MTBE or alcohol to increase their
                        octane rating actually decreased fuel economy.

                        --
                        ===ronin@... (Dave Williams)==============================
                        == waiting, anticipating / for someone to save her soul / well, I ==
                        == ain't no new Messiah / but I'm close enough for rock and roll! ==
                        ============================= http://www.bacomatic.org/~dw/index.htm
                      • Dave Williams
                        ... Why not? They did it *here*. -- ===ronin@aristotle.net (Dave Williams)============================== == waiting, anticipating / for someone to save her
                        Message 11 of 26 , Sep 2, 2003
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                          Ernest Buckler wrote:
                          >
                          > Mario,
                          > I really do hate to say this, but it sure sounds like a bunch of hookah
                          > hokum to me; Shell wouldn't put out a premium gasoline that damaged
                          > hi-performance engines;

                          Why not? They did it *here*.

                          --
                          ===ronin@... (Dave Williams)==============================
                          == waiting, anticipating / for someone to save her soul / well, I ==
                          == ain't no new Messiah / but I'm close enough for rock and roll! ==
                          ============================= http://www.bacomatic.org/~dw/index.htm
                        • Ian
                          ... Mobil aviation in Oz had a slight problem a couple of years ago with light planes dropping out of the sky. This includes a friend of mine ( actually one
                          Message 12 of 26 , Sep 2, 2003
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                            > In the early 1970's Castrol put out a multigrade oil , XL I think it
                            > was, and I knew several who blew motors using it whereas the motors were
                            > good for several years previously in other oils
                            >
                            > and I think that there are many more to add to the list

                            Mobil aviation in Oz had a slight problem a couple of years ago
                            with light planes dropping out of the sky. This includes a friend
                            of mine ( actually one of my subcontractors ) who went into the
                            ocean and was killed - the fuel can't be proved to be the problem
                            but his passenger swam to safety and the symptoms he described
                            make the dodgy fuel the likely suspect. ( Although Lycoming had
                            a crook batch of cranks around the same time too )

                            I contacted the Shell tech. dept. when I was having problems and
                            they denied all knowledge of problems yet the NGK tech.
                            people told me that it was common knowledge that Optimax and
                            small WC bikes didn't get on.

                            Buyer beware.......................


                            Cheers IAN


                            --
                            DRYSDALE MOTORCYCLE CO.
                            AUSTRALIA
                            PH: +613 9562 4260
                            FAX: +613 9546 8938
                            GP PROJECT SITE:
                            http://www.22000rpm.com
                            750-V8 & 1000-V8 MOTORCYCLES,
                            2X2X2 & RACECAR SITE :
                            http://home.mira.net/~iwd
                          • David Scott
                            My 16 valve Cavalier gets 10% better mpg on Premium fuel but it costs about 15% more so I can t win. David
                            Message 13 of 26 , Sep 2, 2003
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                              My 16 valve Cavalier gets 10% better mpg on Premium fuel but it costs
                              about 15% more so I can't win.

                              David

                              Dave Williams wrote:

                              > I don't either... but depending on the engine's combustion chamber
                              >layout and other characteristics, fuel economy can change dramatically
                              >with spark advance. Though there's a theoretical point where more
                              >advance is detrimental, it's well beyond what you can get with
                              >real-world pump gas. Many OEMs program their engine management systems
                              >to continually "hunt" for the knock limited advance point by steadily
                              >advancing the spark until the engine pings, then backing off.
                              >
                              > I've owned a couple of vehicles which, due to this, got better mileage
                              >on premium fuel than on regular, though not enough to make up for the
                              >difference in price. It also depended on the particular brands of gas
                              >being used; brands which depended on MTBE or alcohol to increase their
                              >octane rating actually decreased fuel economy.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                            • Ernest Buckler
                              Top Reply re additves, etc.: I am so VERY glad to stand corrected, had no idea our friendly petro-chem suppliers would and could provide such shoddy/risky
                              Message 14 of 26 , Sep 3, 2003
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                                Top Reply re additves, etc.: I am so VERY glad to stand corrected, had no
                                idea our friendly petro-chem suppliers would and could provide such
                                shoddy/risky product. Many thanks, will be most watchful from now on,
                                guess I've just been lucky.
                                Ernest




                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: "John Wood" <john@...>
                                To: <mc-engine@yahoogroups.com>
                                Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2003 4:43 AM
                                Subject: Re: Fuel Additives


                                In message <3F54355A.ED2A8EA9@...>, Ian <iwd@...> writes
                                >> I really do hate to say this, but it sure sounds like a bunch of hookah
                                >> hokum to me; Shell wouldn't put out a premium gasoline that damaged
                                >> hi-performance engines;
                                >
                                >This topic came up on another list - I'll reiterate my opinion -
                                >Shell Optimax is cr*p. This stuff nearly drove me around the twist
                                >when I was first setting up the MoTec injection on my 750-V8.
                                >The symptoms were not those you'd usually associate with fuel -
                                >the motor ran perfectly but got harder and harder to start - then
                                >began missing and backfiring like the igntion was way out.

                                In the 1980's Shell put out a fuel with "mileage ingredient"
                                That had a number of problems and there were a number of law suits

                                In the early 1970's Castrol put out a multigrade oil , XL I think it
                                was, and I knew several who blew motors using it whereas the motors were
                                good for several years previously in other oils

                                and I think that there are many more to add to the list

                                1988 and Shell reformulated the petrol in the UK during August/September
                                and many Classic racers had engine problems

                                proving it in a court of law is difficult
                                knowing that it is true is something else

                                John Wood Birmingham UK
                                UK Vintage Motorcycle Racing - Greeves & Velocette
                                SRX600 Thumper
                                www.lortim.demon.co.uk -> Villiers Improvements Handbook


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                              • greg123452003
                                ... had no ... Actually, don t blame the petro-chemical suppliers solely. Petrol/Gasoline/Benzine and Diesel/Distillate are not simple chemicals, but rather
                                Message 15 of 26 , Sep 3, 2003
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                                  --- In mc-engine@yahoogroups.com, "Ernest Buckler" <ebuckler@i...> wrote:
                                  > Top Reply re additves, etc.: I am so VERY glad to stand corrected,
                                  had no
                                  > idea our friendly petro-chem suppliers would and could provide such
                                  > shoddy/risky product. Many thanks, will be most watchful from now on,
                                  > guess I've just been lucky.
                                  > Ernest

                                  Actually, don't blame the petro-chemical suppliers solely.
                                  Petrol/Gasoline/Benzine and Diesel/Distillate are not simple
                                  chemicals, but rather highly complex blends. Their compositions depend
                                  on source ingredients, distillation process, intended destination and
                                  a myriad of laws. Add to this equation the addition of substances to
                                  avoid excises/taxes by differing people in the supply chains and it is
                                  no wonder that problems arise.

                                  As the old ad said "Oils ain't Oils!" And a collolary of "Fuels ain't
                                  Fuels" is also correct.
                                • Jordan
                                  Shouldn t it be the engine-makers job to make sure their product can run on a readily-available fuel?
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Sep 4, 2003
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                                    Shouldn't it be the engine-makers' job to make sure their product can
                                    run on a readily-available fuel?

                                    >
                                    > Actually, don't blame the petro-chemical suppliers solely.
                                    >
                                  • greg123452003
                                    ... They did and then we took the lead out. And then some juristictions mandate compulsory ethanol percentages, and others mandate other chemicals, and then
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Sep 5, 2003
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                                      --- In mc-engine@yahoogroups.com, Jordan <jordan88@o...> wrote:
                                      > Shouldn't it be the engine-makers' job to make sure their product can
                                      > run on a readily-available fuel?
                                      >
                                      > >
                                      > > Actually, don't blame the petro-chemical suppliers solely.
                                      > >

                                      They did and then we took the lead out. And then some juristictions
                                      mandate compulsory ethanol percentages, and others mandate other
                                      chemicals, and then there is the problem of winterizing fuel. The
                                      chemical composition of the readily available fuel called
                                      petrol/gasoline/benzine varies widely. The same problems occur with
                                      lube oils. NEVER put GL5 gear oil in a box that has a lot of bronze
                                      bushings. The viscosity enhancers attack the bronze. But try and find
                                      GL4 gear oil!
                                    • RohanB
                                      ... bushings. The viscosity enhancers attack the bronze. But try and find GL4 gear oil! ... Wait a minute, this is not right.. It was GL4 gear lube that had a
                                      Message 18 of 26 , Sep 6, 2003
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                                        >NEVER put GL5 gear oil in a box that has a lot of bronze
                                        bushings. The viscosity enhancers attack the bronze. But try and find
                                        GL4 gear oil!

                                        -----------

                                        Wait a minute, this is not right..
                                        It was GL4 gear lube that had a problem with attacking yellow metal. This
                                        problems is long gone, was solved in the 1970s. Imagine the furore if all
                                        the gearboxes in cars trucks and SUVs were still being eaten out.....

                                        Cheers,
                                        Rohan.
                                      • Jordan
                                        I m glad to read that. I thought that worrying situation had been sorted out. I can sleep again! Jordan (whose gearboxes have much yellow metal in them).
                                        Message 19 of 26 , Sep 6, 2003
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                                          I'm glad to read that. I thought that worrying situation had been sorted
                                          out.
                                          I can sleep again!

                                          Jordan (whose gearboxes have much yellow metal in them).

                                          RohanB wrote:

                                          >>NEVER put GL5 gear oil in a box that has a lot of bronze
                                          >
                                          > bushings. The viscosity enhancers attack the bronze. But try and find
                                          > GL4 gear oil!
                                          >
                                          > -----------
                                          >
                                          > Wait a minute, this is not right..
                                          > It was GL4 gear lube that had a problem with attacking yellow metal. This
                                          > problems is long gone, was solved in the 1970s. Imagine the furore if all
                                          > the gearboxes in cars trucks and SUVs were still being eaten out.....
                                          >
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